Okay... to make a long story short:

I am a pre-engineering student at my high school, and next year I plan to go to the University of Florida and go into the Engineering program there. For my senior year in high school I have to do a project, and for the project I have to apply what I plan to do after highschool, so I have decided to attempt to design and to get headers made for my car.

I've done some research on the basic form, and I have a new CAD program that will allow me to basically design anything, so what I'm looking for is feedback on what you guys would think would be the most ideal design for headers, and what makes it so ideal.

Thanks,

Joe Bliz

 

Define "ideal".

 

Ideal -- giving best performance gains while not putting gaping holes in the ozone layer...

 

Would have to be emmisions legal ofcourse so it would need air tubes and an 02 sensor bung. I would go for long tubes in both 1 5/8 inch form and 1 3/4, thick flanges, FIT THE CAR WITHOUT COMPRIMISING GROUND CLEARANCE, come with a y pipe with two 2.5 inch pipes into a 3 inch collector, or for those more powerful cars, 3 inch inch 3.5 or maybe even 4. Also be available coated. Thats it, lol.

 

Thanks a lot, I'll get some screen shots from the CAD Program as soon as I start to get some basic design stuff done.

Anyone else have some type of pet peave or suggestion that they would like to see from headers?

 

Well, I am not an engineer; however, it isn't as simple as 4 pretty looking pipes of a certain diameter.

You need to start with a small literature survey, I am sure there are plenty of books on exhaust design, try visiting your local library or Googling for some information.

Just of the top of my head I think there are SO many things to consider, like: The lengths of the individual pipes will affect flow, I know f-all about exhaust design... But I am willing to bet that the way headers are designed is in such a way that the gasses expelled from one cylinder create a low pressure wave that allows the gases expelled from the next cylinder to flow easier... Anyway, as I said I don’t know anything about exhaust and I am making this stuff as I go along but if I were designing some headers that is something that I would try to find out about

 

how long do you have for this project? if it was me i would start with a v8 camaro/firebired, 3rd gen of course, with the block minus exhaust manifolds or headers. i would then start taking prolly 1 5/8th primaries and just test fit and cut and test fit and cut until i have a product that does what i want. i would love to see you attempt long tubes and keep the little ground clearance we have but i think shorties would be a good choice for what you are doing. 1 5/8th primaries and a 3" collector. for the emission guys that you "would" have to make it wouldnt be to hard to mock up the a.i.r tubes and o2 bung. just copy the stock format or the hooker format and just cut and measure to apply to your header. it doesnt sound all that hard but time will be the big issue here. it will take a lot of test fitting and cutting and welding and bending. as long as you have access to a welder, tubing bender, and something to cut the pipe you should be good.

 

I need a finished project by the second week in December

I know... I wish it was that easy

I'm starting off basically on the same direction you were talking about, this happens to be one of my research spots

spartyon - although I wish I had the time and money to do such a trial and error type of thing. Basically the point of this project is to show a "learning curve" (whatever that is ), my project is way beyond anyone else... others are like "Installing a new CD Player" or "Doing an Oil Change."

The teacher doesn't expect to see actual headers on my car by December, but it would look really good on my part if I could


So to get back on topic... this is what you guys would like to see from headers:
Long Tube -- Doesn't Compromise Ground Clearance
1 5/8" Thick
Y-Pipe leading to a 3" Collector
and of course all that emissions hooplah

 

ideal from a engineering standpoint would be a 180* header design with a boom tube that fits under/in the car space



i donno if these guys will help you, but from a engineering standpoint, they have everything down..

if you can design a good system for your "model" engine that would work...



athough for a HS project, thats a lil out of scope and price

i would recommend designing a set of SFCs with removeable bolt in cross braces that dont hinder ground clearance.... you can do thoes in CAD too....

plus you could afford to build thoes..... mandrel bends for header tubes are costly.

 

i think you can do at least one awesome side in two months. i am also sure that if you are doing this in shop or some type of car class they would have a tubing bender. also i dont want to see the emissions stuff but the majority of consumers out there would like headers with the emissions stuff primarily to remain legal.

 

the emmissions stuff is almost a non issue.... the ports arnt going to move, and well... as long as there is room above the headers, you can always drill 4 holes in each header and weld bungs to mount the air tubes...your hardest part will be designing somthing that fits while still giving the design properties you want.

and i would NOT use a regular crimp bent tube... mandrel bends only for headers....

 

let me clarify my term tubing bender, one thats does mandrel bends.

 

I have an idea, something that popped into my head.

Ok, so we all know that the tubes all dump in the same spot in the Collector. My idea is that instead ofa ll the tubes dumping into the exact same spot, have them dump in order of fire to enhance scavenging. Hrmm how to explain. I'll have to draw a pciture. Something like this. Perhaps the first cylinder to fire will create a low pressure spot, and pull the exhaust from the next to fire.. I don;t know if you get the idea, or if it would make a differnce but thought i would throw it out there.

 

A Tri-Y design is the best for a emitions legal street car.

 

I'm interested to see what you come up with in the CAD program! I did an exhaust project for one of my classes as well!

 

Welcome to the wonderfull world of engineering. I am in my Senior desing class/project right now in my 5th and final year of school. I am pretty sure that you will not get to choose what you want to work on (in college, not HS). Other companies will pay your university for your technical work. I am currently redesigning a lift mechanism for Honda engine blocks at there Anna plant in Ohio. I hate Honda but I have no choice.
Now on your header design. You will be very technically limited with your high school knowledge but this experience should excite you. What type of engineering by the way?

You guys are over looking the design of the header and focusining on the fitment.

You need to design a header that follow these criteria.

- One that will not warp or deform under constant heat cycling
- It needs to keep the exhaust gasses from becoming
turbulent. Long tube desing keep the gases at the collectors at a constant velocity while shorties have the gasses meeting at differnet velocities.
- You need to manufacture this so that you minimize material cost but manintain quality. (there is a reason why pop cans are shaped the way they are)
- It has to be welded so that there is no delfection or weakening of the material. You need to calculate the fastest, cheapest, and most accurate way to do this as well. You cannot just take your time. time = money.
- You need to do a heat transfer analysis of everything that will be affected under the engine bay, or whatever car it is going in. How fast will it heat up, how fast will it cool down. What will it radiate to? Is it safe?

The list goes on and on but I think you get the general idea. You may want to do an mathmatical data analysis of a specific vehicle that calculates MPG and best shift points and efficeincies accross the board. They are the same equations that GM guys use every day to determine vehicle performce design.

 

I must say that I am thoroughly impressed by your work, would you mind PMing me any problems that you ran into as well as any suggestions or things that you wish you could have done better.

I appreciate everyone's input, I should be getting the orthographic sketches done this weekend *hopefully* time permitting. If I do complete them I'll get it scanned to give you guys an idea.

For the record, I think I am going to go with a short tube design, maybe after I complete these I will ellaborate with a long tube design on my own personal time.

Thanks again for all the input guys, I'll most definately keep you guys updated on what is going on. :lala:

-Joe Bliz

 

I didn't design the headers to be functional, just to look like a set of headers (I did 2 types of shorties, and a long tube).

I didn't really run into any trouble, I just modeled what I saw in the pictures :-)

 

Right now I'm interested in Mechanical Engineering. I hope to go into it when I get up to UF next year. It isn't just cars that interest me, but the mechanical part of physics, and everything else that comes along with it. Lets just face it... I got bit by the Engineering bug

I am awestruck by the response this thread has created, I'm really stoked about this project now. I really didn't realize everything about the project until ShiftyCapone brought up the practicality side of everything. Thank you Shifty for completely opening my eyes

 

Hey no prob. You will love engineering. It is so hard yet so rewardning in so many ways. I want to get into automotive design after graduation but I just love mechanical engineering in general I could really work anywhere. You understand cars so much more after a few simple years in school. I am taking a couple of graduate level vehicle performace classes which are just way to cool. It is literally a mathmatical dyno. I can tell you how much power you have just by fule flow rates and a few other simple factors. It is the same stuff SAE does with dyno numbers. The only problem with engineering is that it takes all of the innocense out of life. Action movies become "That can't happen" and UFO's are seriously fake. Get ready to learn

 

I do that.

My wife gets SOOO MAD!!!!!!!

Even if there was some way to isolate pulse waves even in a production style exhaust manifold, that's what I would be shooting for.

As you may or may not know, cast iron manifolds are great at retaining heat and keeping the exhaust gases hot. They jusy flow poorly. If there was a way to make a cast iron manifold flow well, and keep production costs down (as Shifty pointed out), I think it would be more challenging than simply designing more headers.

 

there are already some out there. slp makes some, i think that yearone sells them.

 

I think you are talking about the LT4 manifolds for LT1 fbodies. I have seen these before. That would be kinda cool if they had somethineg else. Some people just cannot pass visual if they have headers.

 

Hot Rod magazine (I think it was Hot Rod) had an article VERY recently on header design which had a ton of information in it. That would be an extremely good jumping point for you. I'm a second year mechanical engineering student, and I can tell you that engineering rules, we're going to take over the world

 

Do you know the name of the article? I did a search on www.hotrod.com and it came up with over 1000 results. Thanks for the tip, I'm gonna check it out.

Thanks Again,

-Joe Bliz

 

if its within the last 2 months, it probly wont be up there yet.

 

OK, so when I said Hot Rod, I meant Popular Hot Rodding Magazine and when I said recently I meant the October 2003 Issue, the article is called "The Sultan of Stainless"

I swear I meant that

 

i think it would be cool to go with a tri-y shorty design, there are not alot of tri-y designed headers for thirdgens(as far as i know, slp was the only place to make them, and they stopped for production costs/low sales numbers) so... that would be another thought to ponder....

 

Thanks A Bunch!


I'll check out the Tri-Y... but maybe there was a reason they didn't sell many?

I'm not shooting down your idea, just trying to narrow down all my feedback.

Thanks,

-Joe Bliz

 

i believe they did not sell many because they were made out of low grade stainless, which can be tricky to weld, and they cracked.(my friend danny has a set) other than that he loves em'

 

I just got my hands on the program, that beast was backordered for a whole month. Anyways, So I was messing around with it last night and I started to get acquainted with the "Sweep Feature." It is basically a pipe bending kinda thing, here is a screen shot just to give you guys a taste of what is to come.

This isn't a header or anything close to it by any means, just me getting used to the program. I'll keep you guys posted, I have a 4 day weekend ahead of me without school so I should get a lot done.


Later Days,

-Joe Bliz

Edit: Removed big pointless image because it is just a waste of bandwidth

 

i hate engineers lol im a electronics tech. well will be once i grad lol but i want to get into engineering better that way i can boss the techs around lol

 

Hi, You all should read these pages from Headers by Eds website, it gives some great info on how to design and build an optimum header. http://www.headersbyed.com/bildbetr.htm http://www.headersbyed.com/info1.htm Have a good one, Dave at American Coating Specialties Humble, Texas 281-446-6203

 

Thank you so much for those sites, they are extremely helpful. I'll be getting some updates as soon as I get some more free time.

Later Days,

-Joe Bliz

 

Just finished a little somethin of a shortie header design, this isn't custom... but it is the basic idea. Each tube off each cylinder is approximately the same length, obviously the outside ones are a little longer.

I'm working on making a collector, that seems to be the hardest part

Oh Well... just wanted to share with you guys what I got done... I've been busy lately, but finally sat down and worked on it. :lala:

-Joe Bliz

 

Just a heads up, there's another article on header design in this month's car craft (December 2003)

 

Thanks for the heads up TonyC...

What do you think of what I made last night, any improvements or problems you have with it?


-Joe Bliz

 

It looks really good for starters. You may want to get the primaries to join a little closer to each other. That will minimize material usage when you add the collector. You may also want the primaries to angle back a little. The way you have them now puts them over most motor mount locations for most V8 cars. By the way, are those a general design or are they for a specific car? You are pretty skilled at drafting for a high school student. Keep up the good work. I did not get introduced to 3D design until my second year of college and then I really learned it during my first co-op where I had my own seat.

 

Hey these designs are definitly college material or better, Anway if you guys get these built and want to save all that hard work we will gladly coat them for ya!!!
Jimi Manager @
American Coating specialties
281 446 6203

 

That is just a general design, I didn't make it specific for any type of car. I'm thinking about working on a ThirdGen Specific, but I needed to prove to myself that designing it at all was possible.

I'm going to work on bringing the primaries as close as possible and making a collector, I'll get a screen shot up probably this weekend because I'm slammed with tests in subjects in the rest of my schedule.

I'd love to take all the credit for the drafting, but I'm going to have to give a lot of it to the program. AutoDesk Inventor 6.0 is one of the most user friendly programs I've used in a very long time. It seriously does all the dirty work for you -- My teacher is already impressed, now lets see if I can kick out some physical headers in a month... that would really blow his socks off

Thanks Again Shifty... I'll keep you all posted.

-Joe Bliz

 

A little bend here, a little bend there, and I made the primaries a lot closer :lala:

Here is all the views, when I get the collector and finalize everything I'll report back to show it off... until then -- enjoy!

-Joe Bliz

 

That is really excellent. I would not make the primaries any closer because you want at least a little space so that they can be welded. They will most likey be tig welded which makes a smaller bead so you should be set right where they are. Maybe just a slightly bigger gap between the two that are touching. Even if it is user friendly that is still a good job. You still have to tell the software what you want.

 

That is an amazing presentation for software; impressive work, too. I didn't know you could make it look so real!

 

Nice job man. Yeah, inventor is a great program to use, what college you headed to after this year?

 

Thanks for all the compliments guys, it took a while at first but seriously once you get a hang of the program it is a piece of cake.

And to answer your question TonyC: I applied to the University of Florida for early decision, I should find out if I get accepted into UF and the Engineering program around the second week of December. (Crosses Fingers)

-Joe Bliz

 

I hope you have room for the spark plugs! It looks a little tight right now. Are they for angle plug or straight plug heads?

 

Some Q´s and our 50cents in the topic:

1. Wouldn´t it be better to have single pipes attached to the cylinder heads to get some vibrations out of the header?
Pls state some cons and pros ...but pls keep the quality of the thread high as is!!!!

2. We are not limited in Exhaust design to get a smog sticker in Germany so most of the avg. offered syst. are a bad compromise!
Any race/better or new design for a 3rdgen enginebay running a small block people can report of?

3. Lets talk about the thickness of the material!How thin would you go?Any "at least" thickness?

4. Welding: a member is into race bikes, welding the stainless pipes with a plug and a special gas to avoid inner tube material build up?We are looking for something new to this method!

5. after getting pretty good results for drag syst. we are now looking into some 3rd gen touring car headers that might be 3/4 lengh so we keep ground clearence!

6. after running headers on several fbodys thru the years im sick of exaustblow by!the header "copper" mr. gasket design seems to be not the end of the storie...?
After the drag nats we talked to some fuelers and gasket less engine talk came up like on the quad turbo 4th gen 2200Hp monster has!

7. Now what comes after the header and can new connection designs that also aid ground clearence be a way ?

8. Coating the syst. is getting popular as prices are getting down
"davehamilton" can you give a deeper info about the problems that might be part of going into thinner wall thickness!it would be nice to hear some mistakes that people do when they send stuff in for coating!

9. designing one on the pc would it need data from a 3rd gen engine bay in three dimensional view? to check fitment problems?

Ill post 2 pics the first is our club racer...header design was done like builing a clay body for a new car nothing close to the guru design of "WhyHelloOfficer"!LOL

The other pic is a race design very tight packg.

With no emissions,power strg and less other std stuff - lots of space in the enginebay we want a new design we have not seen till today

 

2. pic

 

those are CRAZY headers.

 

german-motorsport -- Those are some impressive headers (the second pic)

I think that might be fun to model on the computer... I might try it sometime if I get some free time.

I've got some updates... I went back down to the shop where I was planning on getting my headers produced-- haha, too bad that the shop is now closed up and they didn't tell anyone where they went

So I talked to a friend of a friend, and found another shop in/around Kissimmee and went to talk to him, he quoted me $1300 to 'fabricate headers to fit an 8-cylinder.' And that was without even looking at the engine. I know that building them isn't easy or cheap... but I didn't expect it to cost that much.I think that the guy thought I was some punk kid that didn't know anything about cars so he would attempt to gouge me... needless to say he will not be building my headers.

So I am back to square-one as far as getting the headers made goes, but I did finish the design. I'm going to make another design specific to the Thirdgen engine bay. Maybe in a week or so I'll have those busted out.

I'll keep you guys posted on everything that goes down...

-Joe Bliz