Avenger007

hmmm...i didnt see that there was 2 pages to this topic. Thanks shifty for the pics and instructions. So for us who buy new headers without AIR cant we just remove the whole thing and not need to worry about plugging any holes? Any final verdict on how it does with emissions because if its no big deal then Woohoo! away with AIR!

91CamaroRS305

iTrader: (2)

i feel special i never knew my post was a sticky, but Avenger emissions is primarily based on where you live, but all some how connected to the California laws, so if you have strick emissions and they require a visual each time you may have to get the headers with the AIR on it, but if you go lax laws you may be able to pass with a single cat converter or have to double it up on the cats, but it all depends on the laws and how they go about emission testing(like out in the boonies by Chicago they are real easy, sometimes they don't even require it, darn city!)

*F-BodyFanatic*

iTrader: (2)

I had edelbrock headers and then flowmaster exhaust put on. When I did this, I took off the AIR system and the cat. Since then my check engine light will come on every once in awhile. Someone suggested to me that it might be from removing the AIR system... is this true?

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

BIGJON

Yep it will throw a code... not sure which one but it will trip your ses light...

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

I as well ran into that problem, just yank the Check Engine bulb. Most of the things that make that come on are the emissions. When you start taking things off that are needed for the motor to run right, you will run into problems.

BTW, removing the AIR pump is really not worth it IMHO.

robsgta

You can get a chip burned to by pass the AIR sensors. Dont unplug your SES!! How are you going to know when anything else is out thats important like and oxygen sensor or a MAF ??
Removing it sheds a few pounds and makes your eninge compartment look less clutered.

galletti

Sorry, double post.

galletti

This thread has been great. I have a few questions. Some may be basic but I hope they'll help others. When removing AIR, how is EGR affected exactly? Should it be removed as well? If so, exactly what should be removed? If the AIR pump is removed what size belt would I now need? Is there a delete pulley available? If so, from whom? Since the subject of emissions has been touched upon, I have some questions about this also. As I understand it, if you get your engine to burn the air/fuel mixture more efficiently, emissions should be better. Is this correct? If so, a better ignition system should help with emissions. This is why changing your plugs and cables helps. So, what can I do, other that plugs and cables, to more thoroughly and cleanly burn the air/fuel mixture and therefore reduce emisions? Is there anything else not related to this that can be done to reduce them? Thanks for your help.

Dr.NickRiviera

An MSD ignition box might help out with emissions as it, if i remeber correctly produces multiple sparks or hotter to completely burn off the fuel mixture.

Duck

About two years ago I removed the AIR pump, tubing and inserted brass plugs in the stock exhaust manifolds on my '87 5.7 TPI car that has been upgraded to a single serpentine belt system.

The car is a daily driver averaging 15,000 miles per year and gets an average of 20 mpg. Originally I did the "shorter belt" trick, but the AC cycling on-off produced a lot of belt-flop and out of concern for losing the belt someday, the GM export replacement pully was installed to take up the slack and use the stock serpentine belt.

Bottom line so far is that there has been absolutely no changes in performance, driveability, mileage or problems with SES alerts. The benefit has been better access to the engine and a much improved underhood appearance.

Did the mod produce problems with the fuel-air mixure or ECM? If so, I've not noticed any just driving the car day-to-day and it has 160K on the odometer. Perhaps when I start PROM tuning I'll be able to see any anomalies.

Here's the GM-Parts info for the pump replacement pully.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...og+pump+delete

galletti

Thanks for the info. My spark plugs, distributor cap are bought and my AIR delete pulley, new cat and spark plug wires are ordered. Hopefully this will solve my emissions problems. I think by removing my air I'll solve the code 34 I've been getting. It's suppossed to be EGR and I've tried many things, but, if my diverter valve is clogged and my O2 sensor getting false readings, therefore creating a rich situation, this may be my problem. Not to mention all the other advantages to AIR delete. If I don't pass this year, I'll try getting a new ignition box and coil. I still need to know if I need to remove EGR and, if so, what parts need to be removed and if will it affect emissions.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'd love for you to point out to me where the "AIR SENSORS" are located.heh.

-- Joe

robsgta

When you unplug the two connections going above the diverter valve of the AIR system wont that set off SES for your EGR ?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

No. I've heard some people say that. Its an urban legend.

-- Joe

Nitsuj86Iroc

Heres a good question for this thread,

Im removing the air tubes, how the heck do you get the steel tube out that comes from the diverter valve and sends air to the passenger header, then goes back around the rear of the motor to send air to the driver header?? I cut some of it off from the passenger side, and it doesnt want to go anywhere, it seems stuck behind the engine where i cant see. the pic above looks like a rubber hose, but mine is steel and wont easily bend at all. any help is great

91CamaroRS305

iTrader: (2)

i had to unbolt the trans crossmember and lower the trans to tilt the engine to get mine out, but there is probably an easier way to do it, but i am not sure, otherwise cut and bend till your blue in the face, i learned that everything comes a part sooner or later that way

Nitsuj86Iroc

holy crap, im leaving it dangling there before i start doing that. can you describe the shape of it behind the motor? is it straight or is it curved upwards(high in the middle, low on the sides)?

Iv cut it, but iv yet to turn blue so im not trying hard enought haha. thanks

91CamaroRS305

iTrader: (2)

it is basically a soft curve over the middle part of the bell housing for the trans, you might get away with just zip tying it off to the side, but that looks kinda nasty, but it is all up to you

Duck

There is no "good" way except to strip/remove/lower the engine. I cut the soft stainless pipe into pieces with a hacksaw blade, except for a short section that I can't reach and it rattles once in a while reminding me to some day attack it with vigor. If the tube ever needs to be replaced for SMOG, a nice stainless flex will be a lot easier to work with.

Knight350

MAJOR PROBLEM!!!

Hi Guys, this is a great thread....
BUT I have a hugh problem related to exactly this...

I have a 1991 GTA, runs beautifully.... it did pass the emissions test 2 years ago, now this year it will not! And I have already taken it 3 times! It failed mainly on NOx, and this time AFTER the EGR it failed on HC's as well... it's really odd, because there is nothing at all wrong with the car...?

We have changed the plugs, wires, cap rotor and even the EGR w/brand new AC delco unit.

NOW the kicker, I just realized (or remembered) I had the exhaust done last summer... I replaced the old y-pipe with a custom one and replaced the 2 old discoloured cats with one high flow high heat cat (350.00 bucks), so I assumed that was fine.
BUT it doesn't have the A.I.R. tube!!! and of course I still have the pump in and connected to the headers...
COULD this be the cause of the failing emissions? How can I fix this? Should the guys at the exhaust shop know to put back the right cat with the flickin A.I.R. tube...?!?

I am stuck, because I can't get my sticker till I have the emissions test passed, and its summer!!

Thanks very much guys, any help or thoughts will be great!!
Have fun,
Fredel

91CamaroRS305

iTrader: (2)

heres an even better kicker for ya, you are most likely going to have to replace the cat completely, because it needs a provision for there to be a smaller tube sticking out of it for the air tube to be hooked up, which aides in increasing the temp of the cat which helps in breaking down the exhaust coming into it, so unless there is a little tube sticking out of it, you will have a problem

Knight350

Really huh?
I know for sure there is no tube sticking out for that connection, I just looked yesterday... and I think you are right. I think I remember there being those tubes in the old cats.

So do you think this is why I am failing the test?
Do you think I must have 2 cats in there with the AIR tubes?
Am I screwed?

I will have to speak to the shop, because they are a custom hot rod exhaut shop and they should have known to put the emissions control stuff in.

91CamaroRS305

iTrader: (2)

you dont need 2 cats just because it came with 2, the components today are a lot better than they were in the 80's, but the idea of the AIR system is to inject a controlled amount of air into the exhaust stream, both at the manifolds and cat, to get the O2 sensor up to temp so it can get readings, and for the cat to get to the temp it needs to be to break down the exhaust into the gases that come out of the pipe, or get another really nice 3 way cat(unless thats what you got) but the 3 ways have one more chemical compound in them to break down the exhaust further....but good luck!

Knight350

Thanks Very much 91, this sounds like this is what might be killing my emissions... I guess I might have to get a new cat??? that's sucks so much doesn't it?

But thanks... I'll see what I can do.
Have fun!

TransAm12sec

If you run your car really warm to the emissions place, the cat will be warmer, causing lower emissions.

Knight350

Well I drove it for about 30min before the test, and it's about 35deg outside here in toronto.... but it did sit in the lot for a bit (maybe 20min) before they tested it.
So maybe that will be better?

But still.... I think if this car has the AIR system, like it does, if that tube is not connected to the cat, it will not function properly and will not pass emissions...?
What do you guys think?

Thanks,
Fredel

Nitsuj86Iroc

iv heard enough guys say they have passed without AIR that i have removed mine during a heading install. in a week or so ill be ready for e check here in ohio, so ill post here if i can pass without AIR.

the way i understand, and correct me if im wrong, but if your engine is running perfect then the AIR is not nessisary. if it were perfect then everything would be burned and none wasted. when there is unburned waste, then the AIR is needed. does this sound right?

Knight350

hmmmm.... maybe...... I know for sure our cars don't "need" the AIR system.... but even still, the engine is running perfectly, the plugs, wires, cap and rotor, coil, everything is good, it still will be impossible to tell if the emissions are up to standard unless the car is tested. And since mine is running perfectly and still fails... there is something wrong somewhere...

I hope you do pass!
Maybe you are right, maybe if my AIR system is TOTAL removed, because remember mine is still runing to the headers, just not the cat because these smartass put the high perf cat without the AIR tube.
So maybe you are good to go...!
what do you think?

TransAm12sec

My friend has a 70s truck with a basic small block, no cats, and flowmasters. He just told me he passed with flying colors.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Generally the air setup is just used to get things heated up and working faster on cold start up. Since that isn’t tested on any emissions test that we’ll see (the manufacturer’s have cold start regs that they have to meet, but our tests just test warmed up conditions), the air system should have no effect on passing a tailpipe test (if you have a visual inspection you might fail that)

Knight350

But since the AIR setup is used to bring the cat up to operating tempuratures to allow it to function properly and "filter" the emissions... mainly the HC's and NOx, by the handes manual then this should effect my emissions by quite a bit....?
Shouldn't it?

Nitsuj86Iroc

i would assume the cat would still be functional without your AIR hooked up, not all cats use AIR to begin with. my 82 Z28 never had AIR, never came with it. That 82 Z28 is for sale by the way

Knight350

Yup, I think you are right... if the car doesn't have it then it will be fine... but if it does, then the ECM relies on the AIR system for some information to/from the o2 sensor to run the engine leaner or richer... so the cars with AIR, you may have to have a chip programed without the AIR system in mind.
Or else, you may have what I am getting now, heh heh...
I think this is why I am failing the emissions, because there is nothing else I could check or change...

cheese_kake

I have a 1992 Z28 5.7 dual cat option and I have noticed there are two small pipes running into each cat is that the A.I.R system or something else , and I live in florida and there are no emissions tests , and Iam planning on removing the cats what will this cause besides improving flow and horsepower and increasing emissions , will I get any warning lights or will my car run not as good?

91tpiTA

Yeah, I want to remove the smog pump on my LLL (91 305 TPI). I want more room under there. But what about that little black "box" that sits right behind the A/C compressor? Can you yank that out too, or what?

91CamaroRS305

iTrader: (2)

if you look up in the post there is a pic of the exhaust manifolds and the air diverter valve. is that the "black box" you are talking about? if you remove that then the A.I.R system for emissions will not work, now it you are in an area that requires emissions this is not a good idea. and if you are thinking the AIR system is the A/C system you are in the wrong post, this is about the emissions system.....but if you remove the A/C compressor DO NOT remove this box if you need to pass emissions.....otherwise remove until it still runs...then stop!!

bgood71

I don't understand why people want to remove emmission parts. It doesn't help the performance of the cars at all and increases the pollution that we breath. These cars were desinged to run properly with air pumps and cats. Having said that, TPI cars will run fine with out air pumps hooked up, although there is no benefit to it.

TransAm12sec

Less weight at the front of the car, one less accessory to drive=more power, and more space in the engine compartment are the first things that come to my mind as far as benefits.

91tpiTA

Yeah, the diverter valve. I live in Michigan, which does not require emissions testing. I'm just looking to remove unnecessary clutter and weight from the engine bay.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Again, only marginally and only till the cat is warm, after that it shouldn’t matter.

Look at the LT1 b-bodies… GM finally gave up on keeping the air pumps working on them and the final recall on them just removed it and disabled it in the code. Do you think that they’d be allowed to repair something in a way that wasn’t emissions legal?

RPOL98

my '90 350 used-to-be dual-cats runs fine without AIR and without EGR. GM even makes an AIR-pump-delete idler pulley, they even show the part number in their "serpentine pulley" kits (probably for boaters). I installed that pulley, fits perfect, although I installed it backwards from how they show it in the photos, to get get more belt-wrap around the A/C pulley. I suspect the guys that set it up for the marketing photos didn't know the specifics and just bolted it together, "if it fits, must be rignt..." I think they got it upside down, it can go either way.

I fabricated an EGR valve block-off plate from 1/4" steel plate. I've learned to burn my own chips nowadays, lot simpler than I expected (Tuner Pro, DataMaster, Flash&Burn, etc). I used plumbing-supplies NPT pipe-caps painted with high-temp paint to plug the AIR on the SLP headers. I'm running straight pipe instead of cats, so I don't have to deal with the little pipe coming up from the cats to the AIR pump system. I disconnected the EGR solenoid, and the connectors are dangling, tie-wrapped out of the way.

Yup, now you can at least see the engine, and it looks like what an engine ought to look like.

can't give you a meaningful serpentine belt length, since I also had to relocate my alternator for valve cover clearance and what works for me wouldn't be right for you.

STOLEN RS

NEVER DID SEE a reply to "should i remove the EGR with the air system", or will this create a whole new set of problems or codes of it's own? anybody?

Duck

The ECM does not "see" the AIR system, it is transparent to it.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

When the ECM diverts the air to the manifold, it offsets the o2 sensor voltages. SO if the ECM thinks the air is being sent to the manifold and it is not, the car will run slightly leaner than it should because it's calculating in for air that simply is not there.

-- Joe

Duck

Nope -- that's not accurate, air pump only helps sensor to warm up...

According to earlier research on TGO:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ir+to+manifold

Grumpy
Senior Member
06-12-2001 11:57 AM

Smog Equipment Delete Final Answer

Now about deleting stuff, and this is 3rd gen F Body specific:

Air pump, in open loop supplies air to the exhaust manifold to promote after burning of any fuel, and that also helps to warm up the O2 sensor. In closed loop it diverts air to the catalytic converter, to help with the chemical reaction therein. So at no time does it affect what the ecm sees O2 wise.
possible gains for it's removal, 5-8 HP, and that's at high rpm, in cruise or idle not real meaningful gains.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Thats what he thought in 2001.. He was wrong. It happens, even for Bruce.

Here is the 2003 version

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...light=air+pump

Verrified in $8d. It's true.

-- Joe

Duck

How interesting! Thanks for the additional info -- however, in the more than two years of daily driving my 5.7 TPI after removing AIR, no error codes have been received and no change in engine driveability characteristics. Why would AIR be injected into the manifolds during normal driving? And if it affects the 02 sensor, why would eliminating the AIR not be reported by the ECU as an error?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
TRAXION 12-24-2003 -- "I have tons of datalogs with AIR being injected during normal driving. This is AIR being injected at the manifolds ... which DOES affect the O2 sensor. Furthermore, this happens A LOT. This is not just a simple inject at the manifolds every now and then. It happens a lot. On the other hand, I think your statement is true for AIR being injected at the Catalytic Converter. None of my scans show AIR being injected at the converter during normal driving after warmup."

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It won't trip a code. The car will simply just run a hair leaner than normal during those modes.

Duck

Ok, so this actually means that although the ECU "sees" the difference, it's microscopic enough not to throw a code and therefore not a big enough deal to cause concern ... in other words, the car will continue to operate day-to-day the same as before the AIR system was removed.