Sounds weird, but I was curious, so I bought the latest issue of Chevy High Performance. There's a company that is making a new turbo kit for F-bodies mounted where the stock muffler goes behind the rear axle!!! Then you get rid of the muffler because the turbo acts as the muffler. It is oil cooled by 12 feet of line served by engine oil pressure. Return oil is scavenged by an electric pump and sent back to the oil pan. The long induction tube to the throttle body doubles as an intercooler. The test car experienced a 60 degree drop in temperature from the turbo to the throttle body.

Although the kit is intended for 4th gen Camaro/Firebirds, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work on 3rd gens, which have almost the exact same layout. The kit uses a single large Garrett 60-1 turbo, and is fed by the stock exhaust pipe. The kit costs $3995, which seems like a lot, but isn't that far off from your typical centrifugal supercharger kit, and is cheaper than a Whipple screw supercharger.

I like the idea a lot. I often thought of picking up a different 3rd gen Trans Am and using forced induction. Having turbo experience from the past, turbos are my favorite, but conventional packaging is almost impossible in the 3rd gen. This kit solves that problem, and the turbo lag is reported to be almost unnoticeable.

So buy the mag and check it out. It's a pretty cool idea.

 

Hey, is the company called STS Turbo? If so, they were just asking our car club for volunteers with thirdgens to test fit their new system on. I volunteered for it, and so have several others, but we haven't heard anything from the company yet. We should probably hear something within the next week or so. :rockon:

 

That is VERY cool. I hope it works out.

Yes, that's the company. My IROC is too high of compression for forced induction though. I could do it if I stroke it to a 383 and use dished pistons to drop compression, but I'm thinking I'd rather get it on a Trans Am instead.
My daughter is getting my IROC ( ) for college later this year possibly. I'll need another F-body "fix".

 

I hear rear mounted is a bad way of going about it. Just my .02

 

Yes, a rear mounted turbocharger is not the best solution. Sure, it might produce some psi but overall, it will be more pain than gain.

First of all, turbochargers are heat scavengers. They convert hot exhaust gasses into energy. If the gasses have already passed through the cat and all the pipes, they are not as hot by the time they get to the rear mounted turbo. Big loss in power supply.

Then there is the turbo lag, caused again by the distance from the turbine to engine intake. That would be an incredible lag, it would take forever to spool the turbo and get some boost out of it.

Then of course the boost relief valve. On gassers, it needs to be in the system. Which means that after the turbo has worked so hard to build up all the boost in those long pipes, you shift and all the volume of pressurized air goes into the atmosphere, practically wasting whatever has been built up.

A turbocharger has to be mounted as close to the source of exhaust gasses as possible. Same for the turbine part, it should not add displacement to the intake part. If it does, lag will occur.

So in my opinion, rear mounted turbo is not effective enough to outweigh the mounting convenience factor. I am surprised somebody is even offering such kit. Probably just for kicks (or ri*ers ).


Lou

 

There is ONE advantage to mounting it after the cat. the catalist has performed its function, and the unburt (which would be unused energy) has been converted to a form useable by the turbo.

But I am with you, the small size of turbine you would have to use, would not be advantagous. that coupled with the rather large compressor is not a good match for a turbo.

 

This comes up all the time, do a search. I think it has been shown that these cars respond very well to this. They don't provide a lot of boost, but it's not needed.
And getting the turbo out of the engine bay helps by keeping less clutter in the bay.


Thread

 

Or https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=272019

 

lol...this came up months ago on a neon forum i'm a memeber of too....(neons have similar muffler setups) and other than the time it would take to get the boost back to the turbo and back up to the engine, the other problem people came up with was that this was easier to steal and maybe break since it's out in the open and not under the hood...

 

Might be easier to steal on a Neopn, but i doubt it would be on a T/A or camaro. I have to lift up on the wheel welll to get the car high enough for my jack to get under it. I doubt someone is going to be carring a low clearance jack around with them hoping to score a 3rd gen W/ a turbo.
And the key to people not finding out is don't put stickers on your car like the ricers do.

 

I just watched Two guys garage and they they bolted the same system up to a LS1 camaro. They gained 140hp and over 140tq I think it was. That was with just the turbo setup. The kit looked pretty impressive to me.

 

Just saw the Two Guys episode as well. I agree, impressive.

JamesC

 

I agree that it's not the ideal location for a turbocharger. Heat is energy and the more heat that's lost before it reaches the turbocharger is that much potential energy that does not get converted into kenetic energy. However, the article does address these concerns and they reported that there isn't much if any noticeable turbo lag.

If you think about it, turbo lag is much more of an issue on a four banger that doesn't make enough torque on its own anyway. I used to drive a Shelby Charger years ago and the lag was terrible on that engine.

The Chevy 5.0 and 5.7 liter engines are naturally less torque-challenged than a little 135 cubic inch engine. So you're not going to notice the lag, because it'll feel just like what you're driving now...normal. Then when the boost comes in, you get hit in the back by a mallet.

There are things you can do to minimize the loss of heat and therefore potential energy. Wrap the exhaust all the way back to the turbo as much as you can. Or get it ceramic coated.

I don't think theft is an issue if most people don't realize that car parked in the parking lot happens to have a turbo hidden underneath. Besides, ground clearance doesn't lend itself to an easy steal, even IF someone knew you were packing a turbo.

 

What happens to exhaust temp after passing through the cat?

That's an advantage seldom mentioned.

 

I saw an install on a C5 vette. You could see turbo from the rear. One thing to remember is the air filter is in the back right next to the turbo. Drive thru a couple of puddles and you will see one of the flaws in this design.

 

I did mention that.

Lo-Tech --

Some interesting work with a rear diffuser and some undercar aero work, and some ducting, could result in 1) a protected turbo and 2) some very interesting air inlet pressure.

Well I do see a couple of things that I do consider issues, there are a couple of advantages. I go back and forth on which outways which. If I had a test mule, I would love to tackle setting one of these up, and trying to work around some of the drawbacks.

 

me =

 

Here's a link to provide a bit more info:

http://www.twoguysgarage.com/home/

JamesC

 

They might have gained this power, but it definitely wasn't a huge increase through the whole powerband. Just because something adds 150 horsepower doesn't mean you can benefit from it any more (or any less) than a 150 shot of nitrous.

 

Except for the fact that it's always on and not eating the crap out of your engin like nitrous does. othe than that, it's the same

 

Just to add to the mix of potential problems,
What if your cat converter started coming apart. That couldn't be good for your turbo. I danced around this idea, at first it sounded great, but after hearing discussions about it I decided it isn't the way I want to go. Just my opinion but I think the turbo being under the rear of the car is kind of lame. Mounting it under the hood give your car a better WOW factor. just my 2 cents.

 

Don't run cat, or hollow it out.

 

Emissions testing???

 

Bahh, take it to Jiffy lube or some place where teenagers work and they'll be so awestruck at the coolness they won't care.

Hmm, maybe we should get volunteers to get jobs at these places all across the country so we can all have hook ups. lol

 

that is the best idea i have ever seen on this site..

its like starting a "fight club" scene so to speak.. no one talks about it.. we just know we are members because of our thirdgens.



"his name is NickRiviera, his is name NickRiviera, his name is NickRiviera"

 

I must agree good idea. Too bad the penalty is too extreme here in Cleveland. I am actually going to try and get collector vehicle plates when my current tags expire. This will get me around the sniffer test.

 

If that's a concern, you aren't in a position to be considering a power adder of any type.

 

Nitrous doesn't destroy the inside of an engine any more than a turbocharger or supercharger would. As far as what the inside of the combustion chamber "sees", it's all the same. Nitrous is a self-oxygenating fuel and the molecular bond releasing the oxygen is easily broken during combustion. The extra oxygen has the same exact effect as the extra oxygen from supercharging or turbosupercharging. Add extra fuel to maintain stoich, and nitrous is exactly a "chemical supercharger".

You cannot beat the price per horsepower of nitrous, but it does get expensive because you have to keep filling your nitrous bottle. The turbo or a supercharger is an initial investment, and beyond that, you're done paying for it.

What tears up the inside of the engine is too much of any power adder, be it nitrous, turbocharging, supercharging, or some exotic fuel like nitromethane.
You have to match the addition of power with how much the engine can reasonably take. You get greedy with the power, and it'll tear up the engine, regardless of which power adder it is.

If you want mondo power, you better build the engine to take it. Mild power adders will work, as long as you don't try to "turn up the boost" too high.

 

The reason for very little lag is due to the fact that the tube to the front of the engine is basicaly the same length as what one would have from an intercooler. There is also a special sock and ducting to protect from water. I would agree to being woried about CAT parts getting into the turbo but Where I live I have no CAT and no need to get one. Many people are alreadt using the turbo kit and have not had complaints. For a stock car most people arent looking for more than 6-9 PSi anyways so they are probably ok. This probablr isnt the best system for a high PSI demand.

 

I agree with you.
But the packaging is interesting. It unclutters the engine bay. I've driven both, turbocars and a supercharged IROC. I prefer the feel of turbos. It also makes use of the 3" single exhaust. It's a pretty elegant system when you think about it.

I don't want to put it on my IROC, it's already destined to become a 383 engine. I'd rather get a Firebird or a Trans Am this time and use the Edelbrock header and Y-pipe into a 3" single exhaust and then bolt up this turbo in the back.

I'm kind of wondering if there's a better place to put the air cleaner than the rear wheel well. I keep thinking of all the crap the tires kick up every single time you drive through a puddle.
Maybe right under the rear bumper is the best place. With some shrouding to prevent water splashing up into it. Put a huge K&N under there where it's easy to remove and clean. Maybe directly on the turbo so there's no ducting.

What kind of scavenging pump are they using? Is it anything like an electric fuel pump?

 

Well guys, I don't think you will need to worry about STS making you a 'kit' for the 3rd Gen cars. My car was the 'test fit' car this last week. After talking to Rick (Owner of STS) for some time, I don't think it is going to happen.
I did take a ride in Brady's LS1 SS Camaro running 5psi of boost though it. His car is a T56 and all stock.
Turbo lag, nada. I have driven LS1 cars before and this car pulled harder than anything I have driven. There is a blow off valve that is used on manual cars that helps keep the turbo 'spooled up' so that the boost is ready at the press of the gas pedal.
Ya, there could be a couple things to make it better but all in all, I think it is a 'cool' way of mounting it.
I am working with Rick right now to get a partial LT1 kit to modify to put on my '87 T/A.
If any one is interested in my findings I will post up when I get it done...

Oh, and BTW, if you are interested, I have a poll running about a 3rd gen kit over at the UFBA. http://www.ufba.org/forum/index.php?topic=13403.0

 

Sure, I'm interested. I don't see why it won't work. The architecture of the 3rd gen is VERY similar. What is it that isn't compatible?

 

Part of the problem was my car has been converted to a T56. So the crossmember is in the normal path of the inlet. The other issue we had was from the front of the engine. My car is a vbelt/serpentine setup that does not leave much space of the inlet. So I will probably run the inlet up though the space the air box is in now. The other issue we had was with an intercooler. There is really not a 'good' place to get air for the intercooler on the front of a firebird. The camaro may be a bit different, but I have not seen one in person. Most of the problems can be worked around. I think they were hoping for a one-size-fits-all solution, and it is not going to be the case. When I get mine I am looking at doing some work to get the layout for the 3rd Gen cars down to a couple patterns. If you want a kit, I will talk to Brady and Rick about making a half kit available that can be modified to fit your car. Then I will try to make the other half available to interested parties.

 

Yes, I know about the tight engine bays. Still, there's more room than in a 4th gen, but it seems they (GM) could have made more room than they did. The car certainly is wide enough.

The whole idea for the rear-mounted turbo was to get around a tight engine bay and still have your cake and eat it too.
How hard would it be to just get some 3" mandrel pipe and form it around your T-56 cross member??? If they're using your car as a test car, I would do whatever I had to, to get it to work!

Camaros are pretty tight in front of the radiator too. There is room maybe, but very little of it. Besides, between the license plate mount and the driving lights, barely any cooling air gets in there for the radiator anyway. These cars have ludicrously bad airflow through the radiator and engine bay.

But here's an idea. Why not take a lesson from STS and also mount your intercooler under the car? You could even mount your intercooler so that you kill two birds with one stone, and get around your T-56 crossmember. Then put a flexible plastic scoop (like your air dam) to route extra air up into the nearly horizontal intercooler?

Maybe if you supply the intercooler and the way to get around the crossmember, you can still use yours as a test car.
It must be frustrating, to have a company that made the turbo work on a much more space-restrictive 4th gen, but unwilling to make the minor adjustments to make it marketable on 3rd gens. That's like throwing half their profit away!!!

 

I am going to call Rick again today and talk to him about letting me develop the 3rg Gen kits. Their system is patented so I have to work with him on creating the kits.
I have a few ideas on mounting and routing so I hope to find some good solutions soon.
I will be talking to Brady and Rick today, so I will post up again later...

 

Good news! Rick has agreed to let my company develop a 3rd Gen kit. I have already picked up a starter kit and have started development.
If you are interested in a ket, fill out this questionaire and email it to me.


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I am interested, but my IROC has too high of compression. I'm at 10:1 compression, so I won't do it on this car. Perhaps down the road, if I get the Trans Am GTA I've been drooling over, I'd love to have it on that.

It's great news that he's developing it for the 3rd gen. He will be successful with a minimum of changes to the existing system. The architecture is very similar. Keep us posted please.

 

Have you had any luck developing this kit?

 

The guys over at fbody.com won't stop complaining about how inefficient they think this setup is.

I would love to see you go over to that forum and enlighten them a bit.

I would post about it in the 'Anything Goes' forum at www.fbody.com and it'll attract some attention.

I think it looks like a great setup, but I refuse to take off my Borla exhaust in my 4th gen to install this unit.

-Matt-

 

We are making progress. I have a dyno schedule for the car on 4/9/05 so I hope to have it running by then. I got put a week behind on the development as my Grandmother passed away last week. I hope to have is running enough to get some testing of the system done this weekend. The Borla cat-back system I have is playing havic with the exhaust routing.

I will stop over to Fbody.com too when I have some good data for the 3rd Gen. The LS1 has a very good response to the turbo. I don't know that the TPI will respond as good, but I am hoping so.

 

got any pics of whats goin on so far with the 3rd gen setup

 

I will see if I can take some this weekend...

 

wheres the picture of the dead horse being beaten when you need it?!



i dont say this often, but go do a search, do some research, google it... go on 4thgen boards..


you'll find that all of the excrement spewed forth in this thread has already been addressed.

 

 

Hey Hydra.. im moving to Utah.. Orem area... what are the smog laws there in Utah? can i run an LT1 intake? what about EGR? and exhaust rules.

 

The guys at Fbody.com are referring to the 4th gen systems by the way.

They think they are inefficient and a waste of $4k.

 

I don't see why not. The TPI has a very mild cam, which turbos like. Plus, it responds to hotrod upgrades just like any other engine does, contrary to what some believe. It appears from the power curves that the turbo makes peak power at about 4500 rpm, which is within a TPI engine's power band. With a longer duration cam, a TPI can get up to 5000+ rpm.

It won't breathe as well as an LS1, but I bet it'll still make a buttload of power on a TPI. I'd like to see it. I'd also like to see it developed for stock exhaust systems, not just Borla.

 

Salt Lake & Utah Counties both have smog laws. You must have all original EGR stuff still on the car, most shops can't tell if it is working though . Other than that they are not as strict as say Cali. You can run an LT1 intake and have no problems as long as the EGR stuff hooked up. I live about an hour south of Orem, in Carbon County, and we have no smog laws. I can run a full off-road setup and never have a problem.

You should stop over to the Utah F-Body Association's website and register there too. We have several events a year and it is a great bunch of people. www.ufba.org is the address and my screen name is Snakebite.

The STS kits are developed for the stock exhaust system. My car just happens to have a Borla on it. I am developing the kit with the stock system in mind. I have another Firebird that is still all stock and have got measurments and layout from it to make sure the kit is in the stock location so that it will bolt right up to a stock car.

L8R

 

Well.

 

The only thing I'd be worried about is the air filter location, really. Not sure if its worth 3000, exactly, but its cool to look at nonetheless.

Oh, and there was no problem getting up to 375 rwhp on the dyno, on an otherwise stock LS1. Lag? Nah..