jdawg1276

Well I think it'd because each state has it's own rules and it really boils down to is money for fines and what not imop. I worked with a guy who had a 90's Honda with a engine swap one shop told him he had to go back to stock motor then he took it to another shop they inspected it with No problems at all. so it's just money imop think the taxes they collect when u get a shop to do the swap and in NC if you fail the test you still have to pay for it.

tekkitan

iTrader: (1)

I don't see why there is an argument about this. I don't see the feds doing emissions testing ever. States or even localities regulate and test/inspect. In my area, cars 25+ years old are not tested or inspected. In other areas around me, no vehicles are tested/inspected. Now obviously it'd be a problem if it were something obvious like side dumping exhaust street driving. Otherwise no one is going to care or even notice. Obviously it depends how this stuff is handled where you live (tipping my hat to you Californians).

effengee

There is such a callous disregard among many of these posts for doing what is right for the environment, or our kids that have to grow up breathing this air, but this is the farthest thing from any of your minds. It doesn't even register.

Sure there a lots of things we CAN get away with, but should we? What if everybody had that same attitude?

This hobby should be able to set a good examples of sound mechanics and sound engineering and sound PRINCIPLES, but principles seem to be exactly what is lacking. "imaginary" horse power.

This thread should really be entitled: "4 reasons the OP is a selfish idiot"

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Did you join the forum to engage in technical discussion, or simply post political propaganda? Because if it's the later just let me know so I can disable your account.

-- Joe

tekkitan

iTrader: (1)

Enough of "the children". All we do is cater to children these days and they have become (for the lack of a better term) *******. Many of you grew up when smog controls weren't a concern and you turned out FINE. Not to mention these cars are not current cars and I think it is safe to say a majority of the people with cars less than 20 years old keep things like EGR on their car.

I agree with anesthes. If you joined just to post that, shu fly.

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

Agreed with both posts above mine, keep your politics to yourself

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Going to go off on a limb here, but, global warming is a hoax..

Also, I agree that we should definitely do stuff to make the air "clean", and by all doing "our part" we can achieve a "greener future". That all sounds dandy, but removing the AIR system/gutting the cat in a dozen thirdgens isn't going to make the kids of today grow up with lung cancer. There's a million things worse out there for our health than worrying about some guy's 26 year old camaro who decides to unclutter his engine bay and so his CO2 emissions increase slightly.. Maybe his engine is rebuilt and tuned and runs CLEANER than a old worn out SB WITH a cat + AIR system in place. He did his part. His car runs cleaner than factory, so what's the issue? I see no prob with this and no offense but IMO anyone who complains about someone else's choice to remove AIR system or gut a cat is a lefty liberal who just wants to complain about anything OR is just jealous that they cannot do the same in their state/province or wtv..

Where I live, it's probably illegal to tamper with a cat (aka remove it, not sure about gutting though). They don't say anything about pollution controls in general like the AIR system, and we don't do sniffer tests, as long as the cat is there, it's good. The exhaust cannot be too loud also. If the cop sees there is excessive black smoke coming out of the exhaust, he might make you get an inspection or have you fix the obvious problem. Yes, I know some types of hydro carbons are invisible but look at the bigger picture.. How many people have these old cars and are removing the cat/AIR? How little do our cars pollute compared to the endless pollution that corporations/government institutions have been killing us with for the last couple hundred years? You get the point.. That's my 0.02$ and where I stand on this.. Let's not bitch at the 0.000000000000000000001% of pollution that we are contributing to the earth.

effengee

Oh Joe... big scary moderator with a gun icon. Just because someone dares speak up a little for clean air, you threaten them? and accuse them of politicking? Are you a moderator or a political censor?

effengee

By the way, I did come on for technical reasons, but what I found mostly was excuses. I was looking for tips on REPAIRING my A.I.R pump, which is old and had the valve stuck in the open position.

Wanting to keep my city as smog free as possible, I GLADLY ordered a new one along with a check valve. The stuck open valve was causing air to constantly be pumped, which of course is not correct.

tekkitan

iTrader: (1)

Well good luck then and have fun kiddo

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Politics are against the rules, so is attacking moderators.

Take care

-- Joe

MMroc86

Read a couple of pages of this.... Pretty funny stuff throughout.

But effengee (AKA Al Gore) reviving an old thread just to get himself takes the cake.

As far as technical input

I've got none. All that can be said about the technical side of this has been said over & over.

Reading the first couple of pages I gotta say, it seems to really suck to live in Cali. . I've had my car for 7yrs now in TX. When I bought it, the smog pump had been removed & cat gutted which of course is against the emmisions laws here in TX.

But I've always managed to get my hands on an inspection sticker. Paid double for it. But thats never really bother me much. Oh and you guys that are paranoid that the cops are gonna realize that your sticker is'nt 100% legit need to take a chill-pill..... At anyrate my car is now a classic & they only check for lights horn & blinkers.....

effengeee

Well... you may not like Al Gore.... but he was right, when so many others were not.

P.S. My hats off to Cal30_sniper who is obviously well informed. Caveman... you are aptly named.

tekkitan

iTrader: (1)

Right about...?

Nice job getting around a ban. You're not too bright. Maybe you should spend less time here and spend more time saving the children from tripping over their own feet.

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

you're right, I am aptly named, just some dumb neanderthal here to live his life and enjoy the hell out of it.

that being said, good luck with your Al Gore theory(I'm unsure where your information proves him to be correct about anything)


have fun being

back to enjoying both of my camaros now

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

errrr.. Where did you get that info? LOL.. Still on the Al Gore bandwagon? Like sheep following the heard about global warming huh? How many more billions do you want to give away of your tax dollars for "green" energy companies that fail in the end anyway? Get real.

Armored91Camaro

I have no clue if this thread is closed or not but I disconnected the the air with a smaller serp belt and noticed that the car was a little sluggish, anyways i tested the fuel pressure and noticed that at idle on 3 tests to make sure i wasnt losing a fuel pump, i was at 32psi idle and 40psi full throttle, put on a new belt that bypassed the ac compress (not being used) but routed in the air pump and noticed that at idle my fuel pressure was at 38psi and full throttle at 47psi plus.

In my opinion air pump should stay, all i know is that vacumm tube coming from the air pump to the fuel regulator is doing something to make more fuel psi. Call me crazy if you will but if someone else wants to test it as i did go ahead, not saying that the v6 - v8 hook up is different but who knows.

greggbruce

iTrader: (1)

You'll be pissed in 6-12 months when the cat plugs up.... (that is, if you have one)

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

if it clogs, punch it through, problem solved

could also upgrade to a newer cat that doesn't require AIR injection

my vote is remove air, install test pipe, weld up air tube on test pipe if so equipped, and enjoy the car(i will also add that both of my camaros are unmodified and have working Air systems, but when they fail, to hell with them)

greggbruce

iTrader: (1)

ditto

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I run a non-AIR cat and it works just fine. Lost a bit of performance on the 1/4 mile, but the sound is still nice and it smells less when driving. Sound is "ever so slightly" quieter also.

EvelBist

iTrader: (1)

Yeah you can. Head for the AZ border and dont look back.

morrow

bbbahahahaha

morrow

come talk to a california ref hahaha

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

The only bad thing about that entire rant and rave, When ChargerBill wrote, "the amount of wasted resources seem to counter the objectives."

But he isn't taking into account that the cars back were in 1987, we didn't have the more modern technology that we have today.

ChargerBill wrote, "The wasted fuel, to move additional (AIR pump, hoses, lines, etc.)weight."

I took my entire AIR system off and it weighed in just over 7 1/2 pounds. No major difference to the daily driver.

And the funniest thing that ChargerBill wrote "I tested my car with and without the AIR pump"

Needless to say, he wasted more time to remove the air pump and equipment and to write something that doesn't have any scientific information, just his personal observation.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

How sad it is that someone who wants to keep their car's engine clean would get bullied on here and called names such as "lefty liberal." You dont have to be a liberal or a tree-hugger to care about the environment a little bit. We hot rodders already have a bad image as guys who only care about ourselves and our cars. Are you the kind that pours your used oil in the gutter, too?

Why not do your part to help stop that negative stereotype of hot rodders? If it gets any worse, our hobby would suffer. You dont want California-style emissions tests coming to your state, do you? It could happen if our hobby is viewed in such a negative light that they need to put extra restrictions on us cuz they think we are a bunch of polluters.

Yes its true the AIR system on our cars does very little to combat the harmful emissions. But it does do something. Same with the EGR, and the catalytic converter. At least keep the cat on the car, as it does the most good. And I mean a full cat, as a gutted cat does nothing.

We have several cars in Southern California that make over 375 horsepower to the wheels, and they all pass California's emissions test WITHOUT having to "pay" any one under the table. Let me know when you get to this level, and then we can talk.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I am assuming you're referring to me here.. Let me start by saying just because I have no problem with anyone removing their cat from their car doesn't mean I dump my oil in the gutter

Welcome, to my humble opinion

Needless to say, removing a cat increases pollution, hence why I installed a non-AIR cat so it works without the AIR system just fine if not better because I also tune my car with TunerPro to run properly (not too rich or lean).. It smells cleaner (yes, this is purely subjective) than my friend's 96 Toyota Corolla lol...

And just to be clear I never called anyone who wants to keep THEIR car clean a lefty liberal, or bully them by any means (if again you were referring to me here)... I was saying that if anyone had a problem with someone else's decision to remove their cat or AIR system and complains to them about it, only THEN are they a lefty liberal IMO. This is what I wrote:

It would make such a small impact on a global scale, even if every thirdgen removes all their cats, to even bother to care about a dozen or more thirdgens removing their cat/AIR system. So I have no problem with that.. Why aren't we complaining about private companies who are in bed with government dumping toxic waste on people's lands, yet are making billions in profit? I would attack the big dogs first before going after the little guys that won't make any impact whatsoever on the environment. After all, it is the politicians that enact these laws yet close a blind eye to this. How hypocritical..

I am bullying.. Really?... It's an opinion .. Over the internet .. And it makes sense to say that I can do what I want with my car so long as it doesn't hurt or harm others.. And the argument that the increased invisible hydrocarbons will hurt others is without merit because we are all hurting each other by driving cars in the first place, some more than others.. I also stated that if the engine runs cleaner than what it was before, even though there is a gutted cat or non-AIR cat in place or AIR is removed, then what is the big deal? It won't ruin the rep of hot rodders anymore because a dozen thirdgens are running cat-less or AIR-less.. It pisses me off more to see a honda with a HUGE useless muffler spewing out black smoke from his engine being too rich at WOT.. It smells bad, puffs a black cloud of crap on my car and in my face if my window is down, and he just looks like a plain douchebag lol.

As for your "challenge".. #1 I live in the PROVINCE of Quebec in Canada and no we don't do sniffer tests or anything as I stated above, just visual inspections and no they don't care about the AIR system. Why? Maybe because there are only a few thirdgens running around over here.. Who knows.. Regardless, my car is very clean with a non-AIR cat and for a 305 that's been modified it makes quite a bit of power at the crank (271HP, 354TQ). If I dropped a 383 in there, and tuned the crap out of a emissions friendly intake with short runners, I'll make that much power, but I don't feel the need to spend that much money when I am satisfied for the most part with my engine's performance Thanks for the offer though.

By no means is this post supposed to be portrayed as bullying or satirical in any way, but merely to express my opinion and clear up what may be construed as my inability to care for the environment, when I clearly do, but I also believe that everyone is entitled to modify THEIR car the way they want to, and if they are polluting slightly more to gain a few horses (at most) then so be it.. It's nobody else's business but theirs.

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

thanks Kevin91Z as I have removed anything that involves emission's and make way, way over 375 horsepower to the wheels. I live in NY just on the other side of St. Lawrence River across from Brockville and we also don't have sniffer tests. I have tuned pretty well in the past and have learned a lot from EFI 101 basic, advanced course over the years and have done a lot of tuning. I respect everybody's car and whatever someone choses to do to their car is their option. If they don't like the laws were they live because they are too strict. I have only 1 word of advice.. Move...

Azrael91966669

ok so back 5 years ago i removed my air system because the bearings in it turned to mush and it locked up "illegal in ohio"
then i converted my tbi car to 91 tpi setup also illegal in ohio since the base engine didnt have that on top of it from the factory

but yet the exhaust is the same for 90-92 305 tpis and tbis 2 1/4 all the way back

now the funny part installing tbi headers on a 305 tpi so to have a matching exhuast is illegal since the carb number dosnt work for tpi

but yet installing the correct tpi headers means also installing a the older and larger single cat from 89 or older hence makeing it illegal ie older emissions on newer car
or swaping to dual cats but technicly is also illegal since it wasnt set up like that from the factory unless it had a manual trans

to me the factory air system is worthless it dosnt fit modern converters it only runs for the 1st 5 min of a trip

honestly even installing a thermostate thats lower then factory is illegal when it comes to emissions as the engine wont reach proper temp

gm had to remove a fuel saveing mode to make the epa happy

also im not sure i even want to have my car tested anyway
i had an Rx-7 tested and the tester put the front wheels on the rollers that didnt go so well
same thing happend the only time i had my camaro tested i was banging on the glass to get there attention
these guys dont even pay attention to the huge RWD flashing in red on the screen there looking at
i just regist my car in a non echeck county now not worth them totaling a car because there employees cant pay attention

kjm977

I guess this seems like the place for my question regarding smog equipment. I picked up an 86 Iroc with a 350 bored .30 over. The car came from Arizona which does not require the smog equipment or so I am told. The car is now in California and I would like to get it back to California standards, so that I may smog, register it and drive it. Can anyone point me in the right direction as to where I can pick up the smog equipment that should be on the vehicle. It has no smog pump or air injector tubes, but has headers into 2.5 inch exhaust with a flowmaster and no cats. Where do I start?

formula forever

check rockauto

kjm977

Thanks I'll check it out. Maybe I ought to just sell it. Might be easier.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Your best bet is to probably get someone who is parting out a car to ship you everything you need to slow the car back down. New, that stuff would probably cost more than the car. Since everyone throws it out anyway, I can't imagine you paying more more than shipping on used pump, lines, cats, manifolds, etc.


You could also move to a red state.

-- Joe

rusty vango

that's all well and good ,,till you need to re register it and then.....no tags for you till it passes a visual and a smog test.AND FURTHERMORE!! way too many 3rd gens get the "hack" treatment .and shortly thereafter you can find them in "pull-a-part".if you don't understand something,leave it alone till you DO.

Jimmy64D

Maby it is different in knoxville, but I had no inspection when I registered my 89 here in Clarksville. I have not removed any of my equipment but I would not hesitate to if I felt the need.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Haha.

Move to a less tyrannical state.


-- Joe

Joe Tag

iTrader: (4)

"everything you need to slow the car back down."

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

Maryland has this awesome tag called a "historic" tag, no visual, no smog testing, just register and go, technically the car can not be used as the only means of transportation(daily) but the law is rarely enforced(usually only on military bases)

RaverRacerX

will you listen to yourself..

the emissions laws in cali and other places dont give a crap about clean. you could pass the sniffer and still fail because it doesnt match up to the letter of cali's **** guide lines. hotrodders are insane for even thinking of living in that god forsaken state.

Joe Tag

iTrader: (4)

Not only are there no emissions laws in WV, But I own 40 acres of trees to offset my cabon footprint, and then some.

The Project

iTrader: (6)

I have to have the AIR equipment present but I can also move the equipment to keep the engine bay looking clean

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

Now cut the A.I.R. tubes off. Weld up the holes. Smooth it all out (recoat as needed). And drill new holes underneath to mount the tubes from underneath. Keeps it "legal" (since they were not manufactured that way, technically they are no longer legal but nobody will care). It'll look much cleaner & still satisfies emissions requirements of having A.I.R. tubes.

Jono4820

iTrader: (1)

I simply love reading on this topic. Fun to listen to all the CA guys complain on how strict their emission rules are and MF everyone else that doesn't drink the same kool-aid.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

These people don't really understand why they think that way. They have been political slaves for so long, believing in junk science and this ideology that they simply don't know any better. They actually think the government knows what is best, and that they should be told how to think, how to vote, how to eat, what to drink, etc.

But ideologies don't fit here. Here we talk tech. As I've expressed before, if you don't live in an 'emissions' jurisdiction, and you have a problem with your smog their are technical benefits for removing such components. If you have a stock car and everything is working properly it's probably not worth the effort.

I don't know how many of you have original stock cars. I know whenever I buy a new project, the firs two days is removing everything that is stock and throwing it in the scrap pile. If it's not making at least 500hp it's not any fun.

-- Joe

cal30_sniper

iTrader: (16)

Well, for one, this hillbilly kool-aid drinker has a Masters Degree in Aerospace Engineering, a significant portion of which focused on combustion (and emissions) in gasoline and diesel piston engines, as well as gas turbines and a large range of stationary and shipborne industrial engines (not to mention the things I covered as an undergrad in Mechanical Engineering). I think its safe to say I understand why I think the way I do. Emissions science is not junk science, and the rampant "freedom" to do whatever you want that you so adamantly preach is by no means a safe path for us to take with regards to the environment. If you need confirmation, look at the environmental state that much of China is currently in. There's a lot of problems out there, and the contribution of a few thirdgenners is going to make an immeasurably small difference in the grand scheme of things, but where do you draw the line?

If everyone just did their own thing, we'd be in an environmental hell-hole even sooner than the one we're already headed for. A few of us are certainly no better than every other citizen out there. Its bad enough that one person blatantly refuses to follow the laws of the land, you shouldn't be advocating that more do so. Regardless of whatever you're doing in New Hampshire to change them, the laws are still the laws. Speaking of which, your self-proclaimed "red" state sure has voted for a lot of blue in the past decade or so...

As a side note, the wells ran dry in the town 30 miles North of my home last week. A combination of climate change and environmental rape by the oil-field has made a position potentially untenable where my family has ranched for nearly 100 years. We're in a drought that's worse than any other ever recorded, and have been for as long as I can remember. Each year brings new waves of record highs and complete lack of rain. Every person that refuses to do their part when possible may be in some small way contributing to this kind of climate change. Do you really want to go down with even the thought that you might have been a contributing factor in a world climate that went haywire?

Joe Tag

iTrader: (4)

"91 BMW 325i - Black, 2.5L, 5-speed, 2dr (Soon to be SBC or LS/T56 swap)"

You have a point Cal30. But that swap doesnt seem to be a mod to make the Beemer more fuel efficient, nor less poluting. I dont see a prius on your list of cars either, they all look like gas hogs and one soon to be one. Careful when you put yourself up on a pedestal, because it's a long fall when someone knocks you off.

Saar

actually, a LS/T56 would probably get better fuel economy and produce less emissions than the 2.5 does...

assuming it doesn't get built into something that is more track friendly than street oriented.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I know I know. Universities have been teaching political bias and environmental junk science for decades now. They probably got the idea after how effective the brainwashing was with the hitler youth. 6 years in a university and you've guaranteed a card carrying member for life.

Saf-C 3220.02 Air Injection Pump/Pulse Air System.

(a) The air injection pump/pulse air system shall be required on all vehicles less than 20 model years old, if so equipped at the time of manufacture.

(b) A vehicle shall be rejected if:

(1) The air injection pump/pulse air system is missing;

(2) It is plainly obvious that the air injection pump/pulse air system does not function; or

(3) Any hoses associated with the air injection pump/pulse air system are missing or do not function.

Saf-C 3220.04 Evaporative Canister.

(a) An evaporative canister shall be required on all vehicles less than 20 model years old, if so equipped at the time of manufacture.

(b) A vehicle shall be rejected if:

(1) The evaporative canister is missing;

(2) It is plainly obvious that the evaporative canister does not function; or

(3) Any hoses, wires or cables associated with the evaporative canister are missing or do not function.

Saf-C 3220.05 Inspection of Exhaust System.

(a) A catalytic converter shall be required on all vehicles less than 20 model years old, if so equipped at the time of manufacture.

(b) A vehicle shall be rejected if:

(1) The catalytic converter is missing; or

(2) It is plainly obvious that the catalytic converter does not function.


This is the law of our land. States rights. I realize that the federal government likes to push states around (look what eric holder is doing to texas now after a change in their voter id law).

Yep. Lots of people from Massachusetts crossing the border lately. Apparently they have run out of things to destroy in their own state.



Anyway. If you want to debate politics, our tyrannical government, or preach green peace their are places and forums for that. This forum is for technical discussion. I've been baited enough as it is.

-- Joe

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

This might not be the place to say this, and I surely have less of a say since I'm Canadian (political affiliation is libertarian), and I mean no disrespect, but surely you must know that even one bomb that gets shot into either Yemen / Libya / Iraq / Afghanistan / Pakistan, and now Syria (let's hope not atleast) pollutes more than probably all third gens combined.. (I am speculating, but nevertheless, the point I'm trying to make is that on a grandeur scale of things, take into consideration how much the government pollutes, as well as corporations that are in bed with the government pollute, and then you'll probably see that CO2 emissions from cars is very little compared to other methods of polluting.)

China has 1.6 billion people total, most are rural, but in the city, it's overcrowded for the space that they have. In the top 10 populated cities on the planet, China is 1st, 6th, 8th, and 9th, for a total of about 50 million people in those 4 cities alone. Shanghai is the MOST populated city in the world with about 18 million. They have oxygen machines dispensing oxygen in the streets because of the smog, and you can even see it from space, and the cause is from burning fossil fuels and biomass, but that is the government's fault for mass industrializing the nation so quickly (the largest growing economy in the world) and there have been practically no controls put on industries that pollute. Why put the brakes on a growing economy? They can't afford to. Atleast China this year will launch pilot programs to cut carbon emissions by 2015, and it will regulate up to 1 billion tons of emissions..

There are lines drawn, the government draws them based on what the politicians think is right for society (ie: 15 year or older car is exempt from the laws because of such and such.. ) They know how many of these cars are on the road, where I live, 15 years or older, it's 'carte blanche' as we say in French, which means you can do pretty much whatever you want to it (there are still general limits like if it's too loud, or too low, etc.) Where I live everything rusts, and you're lucky to have a good running car 10 years or older lol. (I don't even drive my Camaro in the rain, I have my other 08' 3.5L Charger daily driver for that). They probably said "hey, there's only a couple hundred of these cars here, and what percentage of them will actually delete emissions, etc.." so then they just exempt us because it actually saves them money and time for inspections and all that. I mean really, what is the point after all, unless you're doing it on such a large scale, it's a waste of time, effort and resources. In my opinion, go after government and corporate pollution first (who actually sell us the 'evil' polluting cars in the first place) and then once that is taken care of, now that the example was set, now you have the right to go after the little guy contributing to what amounts to 0.0000000000000000001% of the total earth's carbon footprint.

And about Universities: There is clearly a political agenda, atleast where I live, which is a socialist utopia for education and healthcare. Universities are there to give useless teachers a job. Period. The system has SO many useless programs that kids can't get a job out of university! You're better off going to a private school, paying the 20k for the degree, and getting out in 11 months (instead of 3 years!) and just learning and focusing on what YOU really wanted to study in the first place.. Also, people will tell you that stuff is free here in Canada, but they don't understand that they are paying for it through taxes, they just accept whatever tax the government puts on them and move on with their lives, or they do, and think it's justified for the 'greater good' of society.. If you make 60k a year, you clear 34,000$, not to mention if you own a house worth 500k, you pay city and school taxes that amount to about 6000$ per year, not to mention income tax, that at that tax bracket at the end of the year you have to pay about 3000$ in income tax (think IRS on steroids) and then everything you buy is taxes 15% so whatever is left after 60k, your purchasing power is greatly reduced because of taxes, and then not to mention rising gas prices and commodity prices generated by rising inflation likely caused by irresponsible government spending and printing of its currency thereby reducing the value of what the currency can buy. People don't understand that the prices of health care AND education are high BECAUSE of government intervention and inflation in the first place!

Richboll

And here I thought I was on this forum just to read about 3rd gen stuff!