anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Have you actually done anything you are suggesting here on a thirdgen? The engine bay isn't very forgiving.

-- Joe

rushtk

can you run a newer cat and pass emissions? I'm not checked where I live but that makes a bunch of sense with the growth of technology.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

It's possible if where you are only does the sniffer test and not a visual test as well.

rushtk

My area doesn't even sniff... boondock area

rushtk

Do they make performance upgrades for our systems that can pass emissions?

tealman92

No one makes any performance smog equipment for our cars.

TylerSteez

iTrader: (3)

This thread is the thread that keeps on giving lol. Just won't die. There are headers with air tubes for tpi cars, have no clue what emissions issues you'll run into with them though.

rushtk

Thank you

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Just curious how many tpi guys are reprogramming for the loss of a air pump ?
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...-pump-air.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...ed-needed.html

kfsullivan

I recently too mine off as I've ordered a set of Dyno Don's headers and a new Magnflow cat and cat-back. I've not noticed any performance issues up or down. Car starts quickly and idles smoothly hot or cold. Interesting threads though so I may have to look into this more.

Thanks

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

OK, I'll bite. Why would you need to reprogram? Showing my ignorance of how this works here, but air is only pumped to the manifolds when the engine is cold, and downstream to the cat when warm? And cold is a fairly fixed program until we get to closed loop, right? So what would you be adjusting for?

I'm sure I have this all wrong, but now seemed like the time and place to ask.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

When the air pump is commanded on air dilutes the exhaust gasses. The air goes past the o2. The o2 seems more air thinking the engines running lean. To compensate for this once the diverter is commanded 1mv is added to the o2 reading.

Chopski

iTrader: (1)

Tuned Performance. Would this explain a high idle when first started? Calms down after 15 seconds but it is almost always there. Around 1200 or so briefly. Probably more related to the overly large injectors the PO had when I got it. LS injectors in a '89 5.7 with just headers...I know, not right. Have replacements that are Southbay Bosch stock type to go in place.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

OK, so I have it backwards then? Air is injected at the converter when cold, and at the manifolds when the engine is up to temperature? Otherwise, as I wrote it above, it wouldn't matter, because air injected at the converter is post O2.

Or is it switched between the up and down stream even at normal operating temperature?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

High idle when cold ? That's normal, if it's warm and turning the key off and then back on and the rpm lowers is the sign of a bad ecm.
@dave Afaik the air is during cl. Open loop the o2 hangs about .450-.500mv .

Johngypsy

As a member here for a while, and love 3rd gens of all sorts and we are all a team and family here giveing us respectively and the best knowledge we can provide and give to us all,

The A.I.R will cause massive over heating issues if this delete project is not done properly, this is not just taking away the pump and cap off and your good to go, no where near that,

I've had my best friend tell me how he done a 13.2 in the 1/4 mile while deleting all the A.I.R sys, (with other mods to of course) so I took in my 90 Iroc to him and he began deleting all the things needed , I mean he plunged up all the manafold holes and plunged up most of my hoses to the point my car after 35 mins would get hot? Couldent figure it out for over 2 months, heads are perfect cooling sys is also all new with hoses, I mean I checked it all and was stumped,

Until one day a friend asked me if I Had ever deleted my A.i.R, told him yes sir, I sure did, after he told me I was nuts he told me that my catalytic converter hose that goes to my vacuum switch was not properly disconnected right causing my computer chip showing I have a open switch not opening up properly thus making my heat to not flow right and causing my car to get hot! I said what no way? Really? (FOR 1990-1992 305-350 TPI MOTORS ONLY- NON MASS AIR FLOW) after I put back all of the parts back on and taking out all the plugs he installed my car ran like new again, sure I lost a few ponies but my car ran 100% better then before it was driving poorly, if u have a 90-1992 z or z28, it's not like the 85-89 models with mass air flow, u must do this properly , I could of just bought a chip showing my computer that I do not have A.I.R and could of went that way, I also own my own chip burning program that to be honest I don't know how to use it, so I went to do this a better way, I put it all back together like it was made for,

Remember General Motors designed our cars with this sys of A.I.R, so taking it off u must do it right the first time or u will pay the consequences of getting a headache and most luckily leaving in the driveway or garage sitting until u get to It next year, like we all do with these cars ( remember 89% are projects ) let's not go there anymore so let's do this right the first time around so we all don't make mistakes lien we all do with them,

If u delete the AIR SYS, do it right or leave her alone, if u have a new upgraded motor ?? FINE! It's gone with the new motor u got for it, but remember the guys who had the TPI MOTORS L98 70% of them went to a holly carb for a reason because they couldent figure what the heck went wrong when they done work to it, this is. It a basic motor, it's a state of the art motor, yes it sure is, this is the first real fuel injected motor fm ever cakes up with and remember for the lower 80's they made several mistakes and learned from them all in the mid 90's to correct this issues, so again the Tpi was designed with egr and the AIR SYS,

Even the 305 throttle body and the 305 carbs also, so fellas as a member here I want u guys to lean from my mistakes so we don't go threw them,

Also depending on your state u live in, your O.B.D 1 is old and most states still honor the sys to work correctly , so causion is advised to inspections,

God bless and hope this helps!

John
Houston Tx

vinny R

I purchased my car with this system already removed so for me there was no going back. This is an interesting thread and answers some questions and observations i have from this. My car runs a little lean. I removed the cat and changed the O2 sensor and both had a slight, very slight white tinge to them. No black soot residue at all. I always thought something should be changed in the ECM just never knew what. John, what is the proper way for this system to be removed? My holes are plugged in the manifolds, the pump and all pluming has been removed. The Cat has been removed. where is this vacum connection you speak about? I don't have a overheating problem but there was a time when I turned the heater on and my temp spiked, like the water stopped flowing. I turned the heater off and the temp went down as fast as it went up. I have a 91.
Tuned... is there a chip I can purchase for a stock ECM that will have this delete. If not I assume I would have to send mine out for reprogramming. Do you do this or know a good source for this and is it worth it? Thanks

Ghettobird52

I seriously dont get how not programming the air out of your tune would cause over heating.....

I've had the AIR 'disconnected' on my car for years now, with stock ecm and with EBL Flash and the operating temp is the exact same... Not sure what the heck went down with your car but thats definetly not how the TBI runs...

Right now as my car sits, i have hooker 2055 with the AIR tubes capped, with the smog pump still in the belt system but not connected to anything. Its been this way for 6+ years and never had a problem with connecting back the AIR for smog and disconnecting after....

TylerSteez

iTrader: (3)

Agreed with ghettobird, nothing with the air system would cause your car to overheat. It's not like the ecm has any control of when the thermostat opens and I believe the fans were only controlled by the ecm for a couple years. And I don't believe the ecm wouldn't turn the fans on if it saw an issue with the air system.

Could deleting the air system cause other problems within the tune? Sure, but overheating isn't one of them

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Unless your having other changes done at the same time, vats disable, fan temps lowered egr disabled.Its not worth the money imo to have the air disabled. It will still run fine . If your wanting reprogramming done send me a pm.

Johngypsy

Ok, open up your hood and look in the far far back behind the cap and rotor area, on the lower side, I don't know what year your car is? Maybe u stated but did not see it,

there is a small part that has -3 ports into it, line a vacuum hoses (small) electrical part, this again is located just near to your spark coil, u will need to disconnect that plug, thus the Ecm is thinking that u have a Egr, depending on your year Tpi motor u have,

once this is disconected properly the Ecm will show Maby a code 34 flash flash flash -pause 4 flashes, u do not need to worry about this, your car will run super better because the Ecm is thinking there is a egr and it's not properly doing its job, and that's why your heater was going hi because it's all for the temperature not allowing to do it's job properly, thus causing over heating issues,

we have to remember we have a first gen obd1 sys and it's out dated for us Now,

as far as chip? I have the complete programming for it plus a chip to, but to be honest I don't use it (1200 set up) for all obd1 sys, email me at: Johnjohninht@gmail.com, and I'll send u a phone number to my personal friend who lives in Conroe Tx, this man eats sleeps Tpi motors and burns chips to, that is 3 times better then any one today that makes them.
He will burn u one and send to u, with the egr delete sys, and add u about 10 extra horses to boot, he is the best of the best, he also has parts also if needed,

so keep in touch with me and I'll help u along the way, what ever it takes I'll be there for you and get that car on the road to perform much better then when u had it prior,

so again what what is going on the Ecm is thinking the egr is working and not allowing the air to circulate properly, causing u to burn more fuel and the smell of gas thus causing the o2 sensor to turn white with the air/fuel mixture not going right, I would also recommend if u now have deleted or the other guy the complete smog, u will need to get a wide band 02, this plugs into the stock 02 and u can read and monitor the air/fuel mixture thus helping to control the amount needed for a smooth engine idle throughout the RPM band driving, this is a must with a burn chip, u can get a used one for under 75 dollars or ebay for about 120 for a good digital one,

but ill give u more details when u email for all more options to go forward, so worst case I'll just send u mine that I have for my Iroc with Tpi, this is what I have made costume chip that I went and added back my smog and have the computer 7730 with the chip already inside it, so it's just a plug and play set up to get u going already programmed with the egr and complete smog pump delete some to it,

also while under the hood, check to see if u have a plate to cap off the egr and not a plug into it. U don't want any leaks that will also cause the same thing?

Keep me posted, again I'm there for all these cars to help get them at a top notch condition
Thanks
john
houston tx

TylerSteez

iTrader: (3)

The part you're referring to is the egr solenoid which absolutely does not need to be unplugged in order to delete the air system..

That's a totally different part of the vehicles emissions system. Yes you would need a tune to properly delete that but there's honestly no point in removing it since it does absolutely no harm.

Johngypsy

Sorry I have to let u know that the info is not correct, the solenoid must be disconnected, this is a vacuum switch for the egr all running by the computer, u are right, not needed to disconnect , but if u want to do a cheesy fix that is not how u supposed to do it and leave it connected, the switch is there for a reason and thus will cause a vacuum leak hissing and after u open the hood it will sound horrible to the man who wants it perfect or to the guy who shows to his friends and family look at my engine and they hear noises from it, the solenoid was made and there for a reason, once u delete the smog and egr, why have that part there anymore? No reason to make the car sound like a mess, sure it will be ok, sure it will run the same, but if u don't take care of this issue, this will leave a man to leave anything els left behind - thus causing one day soon your engine compartment to look like frankinstine motor, with wires and spare parts not used, hope u will agree with me on this, we want the motor (engine) bay to look at its best, if the egr is gone why have the switch there to spend its life dead and unwanted , just to look good? No sir , do it properly the first time around and get it out and disconnected, as it's no longer needed, sure u can save the part for a future guy who wants it all back to stock, but as of now it's not needed at all,

My personal recommendation would be if you don't use the solenoid switch and it's no longer needed! Take that junk out and have it looking like stock, that's just be I may be a bone head half the time but I do like to have some sort of perfection when doing my cars to look at it's best, compared to other guys who just wore up and leave these parts unused thus making it to look like a back yard mechanic who just started working on cars last week,

Again my personal option on this subject to just do it right and do it properly the first time around and get the job done right for these 3rd gens we all have,

God bless and hope this helps

TylerSteez

iTrader: (3)

Well I hate to tell you this but you don't need to delete the egr+egr solenoid to remove the air system. I think you have 'deleting the smog pump' confused with 'deleting all emissions equipment"... In fact some pretty reupatable people on this board recommend that you leave the egr system on the car since it doesn't hurt anything and only benefits the engines operation.

theres nothing "cheesy" or "Frankenstein" by leaving a perfectly functional system intact..

zya5point0

iTrader: (4)

Magnaflow used to have a direct replacement converter. I have one on the IROC. Did they discontinue it? As far as the smog pump. I've had a couple cars over the years that I (or a previous owner) just took the belt off. Never noticed any ill effects?

TylerSteez

iTrader: (3)

John-

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech-general-engine/724845-egr-delete.html

read post #'s 15,16,17, 20, 23, and 30.

Johngypsy

Ok don't want to cause confusments on this subject at all, I am not here to complain or In fact make suggestions that makes this issue more difficult then what it is, first off I am a 3rd gen man as most of us all are some more then most that's why we all need help here on subjects needed to be answered here,

I own and sell more then 80 3rd gens here in Houston Tx and seen some of the worst issues one can handle, so I promise I know my 85-92 Camaros all by heart with issues, and also own a few in my garage,

The vacuum switch in the rear back of the car also controls the smog to, not 100% but is apart of the sys according to the density sys for all 90-92 models years, as it has 3 ports for them, 1 port is also for the egr that is the number 1 port to the right of it, the other ones connect to the density sys also, and the cat vacuum goes into the front of the throttle body that runs directly into the middle of it, thus coming back into the density sys and again back into the solenoid switch, that again is also for the egr, if u are gonna disconnect the smog completely your better off just doing the egr while u are there because it's more trouble to do just the one for all 90-92 models, and better off taking out the switch altogether thus programming a new chip showing the Ecm that it's all been eliminated altogether,

I've also ask and talked with several of the guys here 4 years ago about this issue and more back in the late 2000's to do this right delete it altogether and remove the switch solenoid all at once , and have a clean job while at bay, I am using my phone and would love to show u Picts of what I mean so this way u can understand what I am taking about, this will be like if fm never installed this sys in the beginning, personally I would not touch it all but the guy already bought it like that, and trying to give him the best way to go, THIS IS THE CORRECT WAY,
John
Houston Tx

vinny R

Yes this is how my system is done. The EGR system is in place and has not been touched. That vacuum port John speaks of has all the connections still intact. I have no plans on removing the EGR system.I have no problem with the operation of the engine. In fact it runs and idles as if it was new. Just that one time I used the heater and had that temp spike. I live in FL so I really don't use it anyway. I just wanted to make sure that the slight lean of the mixture will not cause problems down the road. I read somewhere that the computer does compensate for the Air pump being there. It is not much but never really found a legitimate answer if it needed to be corrected. From reading all the responses and thanks to you all, great info here, I think I will be fine for the moment.

Johngypsy

Well I so hope u got some info on the subject and all the best with your Camaro it's a beauty and living in Florida myself back in the day, I think I used my heater only one evening back in the 1990's when we had a big cold front, but only for a day, so u will never need it like u said.... again all the best and we here sometimes argue the point about the best way to go, but over all we are all family here and we are here for our cars that are most important to us all,
All the best
John
Houston Tx

jeremyb1988

Super old post...but what the heck. Yeah I bought an 87 about 4 months ago. The catalytic converter and air pump has been removed BEFORE I owned it obviously. I have a back wood mechanic that I have been using for years and years. To touch on your point, I live in Raleigh NC...and its not impossible....but you have to be careful who you take your car to for inspections like mine. I have not had to get it inspected yet...I think...I hope my only saving grace is my mechanic I think knows that the thousands of dollars over the years I have spent that he will inspect my car if he knows whats good for him lol. It also has tinted windows...which are illegal, so its one of those, drive in with the windows down type of deal. Ultimately I think its what you want to risk and not risk. In NC some shops if they want to can write you up and so that whenever you take it somewhere else it shows up why you failed automatically. Like I said...I think its best if you have a steady mechanic you do business in or take it to a shop that's "known to pass shady cars"...I find asking the local advance auto parts guys works well. "I took my 92 buick with no cats on it, they didn't care" lol

tom3

After four replacement pumps I gutted my pump and blocked the tubing connection at the rear of the pump. Do notice a rough idle when warm, especially with the AC on. I suspect the lean condition would have some effect on the cooling system but my car doesn't overheat. Still, if I could actually buy a good reliable pump I'd put the system back in use. I like stuff to work - but there are limits to how much aggravation I can stand.

Robbie_S

Lets have a clean argument on here, please. You will loose any kind of support acting like this.

rbrackett

I have also learned here....and on many other forums...


Don't be so quick to look at the number of Posts a member has. Having only a few does NOT imply that person any less intelligent. New guys here may have had MANY MANY years experience with these cars... And having thousands of posts does not make that member an expert.


Just last week I watch a youtube video of a member on this site, who has 10K plus posts here. He made a video of himself hacking up his car to change his fuel pump. And I don't mean he just cut an access panel, he literally hacked! Almost clean into the drivers side wheelwell! I was left completely SPEECHLESS!

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Got a link to the video?

-- Joe

rbrackett

I'll find it

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

I agree with the above. But my question is does this matter? With a typical narrow band O2 sensor, it's going to bounce and forth between .1 volts and .9 volts. Signalling the engine to add/remove fuel. The idea being that the average works out to .450 volts (stoich)

So what happens when the smog pump is removed? The voltage will read .8 instead of .9 volts. Either way, it's still going to lean the fuel out and head on back down to .1 volts before it swings back again. Narrow band O2 sensors don't really "interpret" specific voltages. They "output" voltage readings and add/remove fuel. But they're pretty much a 1 stage add fuel or 1 stage remove fuel.

Now a wide band O2 with custom computer programming is a different story. The .1 volt difference would make a difference. Though in this case, the person will have probably tuned out the .1 volt difference that AIR causes.

To me, this is like comparing a 1 stage home air conditioner (that is either on full blast or off) vs a variable displacement air conditioning compressor that can adjust in 1% increments between 30% duty cycle all the way to 100% duty cycle.......Our narrow band O2 is like a 1 stage home A/C.

I weighed the stock smog pump. It's 5 lbs 3 oz. Not a huge amount of weight. Not enough to notice a difference. Does it make more horsepower with it removed? Maybe 1 HP though I'd be surprised if it made more. Lingenfelter removed the cat on a then brand new 4th gen LT1 and only gained 4 HP.

Removing the smog pump and not using the aftermarket delete pulley should mean your serpentine spins faster. On the other hand, the stock serpentine belt on my TPI is 94.5 inches. The aftermarket serpentine belt for a bypassed smog pump is 96.8 inches. So the belt is 2 inches longer. Let's call it a draw.

I don't understand the idea of "cleaning up" the engine by removing the smog pump. On TPI engines, it results in either a hole there on Camaros or no difference at all on Firebirds (the ducting covers it). I don't think the average person would realize there is something missing there. It's only people like us who know what to look for.

Removing the entire AIR system with it's box and tubing would clean up the engine. But just taking off the smog pump itself, not so much.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That's actually not what the code does, in $6E or $8D.

It subtracts 100mv from the rich/lean threshold, NOT from the A/D input.

This is essentially the same thing we used to do to get closed loop idle happy with big cams, and it effectively moves the target AFR up or down.

-- Joe

88IROCvertZ

iTrader: (1)

I had an 87 5-speed t-top TPI IROC in the 90s

When I bought it, the previous owner took the belt off the smog pump and had a "Power Pulley".. I had Flowmaster Exhaust, Hypertech chip, heads ported and polished, K&N filters with modified air box, Centerforce Clutch, Hurst shifter, hollowed out catalytic converter, MSD Ignition, probably some things I'm forgetting too..

It doesn't seem like much, but 2-5 hp gains here and there made a huge difference.. I could beat my friend's 87 5.7 by a couple car lengths where he used to pull a car length on me before the bolt ons.. I was neck and neck with my buddy who got a 1996 Camaro SS back then which was 310 hp I believe.. sometimes I could pull a half a car on him top end.

People were impressed with my 305 and it could pass emissions if I ran the motor hot with the A/C on.. and thats with hollow cat and no smog pump..

My smog pump was still there, just never had a belt on it.. I never got into making the car lighter.. I had friends that would take the back seats out, etc..

At some point it's crazy because there will be some guy with a blower and wheelie bars that runs a 9 second quarter mile.. I was happy to make the high 12s

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

This is a very interesting topic to me, but I still don't quite understand the need for the voltage adjustment.

My understanding of A.I.R. and the diverter valve is that when cold, we pump air into the exhaust manifold, to aid in burning unburnt or partially burnt fuel, and also to add heat via that combustion to help warm the cold converter more quickly. As the engine is cold at this stage, I would not have thought any adjustment would be made, as it's pretty much an open loop fixed program.

Then as the engine warms, we divert the air pump flow right to the converter, beyond the 02 sensor. As the sensor cannot see the extra air, how would it impact the AFR, and require a voltage adjustment?

I'm missing something here.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Air is diverted to the manifold during closed loop too:

And as such will effect the o2 sensor, which is why the offset is made when the divert flag is true.

-- Joe

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Joe, that explains it all. Thank you!

Matthew Cicchi

For anyone here saying it's a part that is needed I'm sorry but your wrong the A.I.R system pumps in air yes during certain times. But it is ONLY on vehicles to pass emissions by tricking emissions testers. It's introducing air at the final stage after fuel has been burnt. Which does absolutely nothing. In simple terms it's like when an emissions test is being done it's like holding the emissions tester just outside of the tail pipe not in the pipe. If you can honestly think it offers any ecological benefits your wrong it was introduced specifically to get emissions within limits with out improving efficiency.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

So it doesn't add air to aid in combustion of unburnt fuel against a hot catalyst?

-- Joe

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

I'm sorry Matthew, but that is completely wrong.


The air is introduced at the manifolds, where the fuel continues to burn. It does not magically stop burning when it leaves the combustion chamber. Air is added again in the CENTER of the converter, not after it. This again aids in the the combustion of excess hydrocarbons. And just like at the head, the process continues as the red hot exhaust gases leave the converter. Adding extra air at these points aids in that combustion, creating cleaner tail pipe emissions.


If it was simply a "cheat" to put bulk clean air into the exhaust, to thin it out, and make it pass emissions, the govt. would never have allowed it. While some may not like the EPA, or the way they do things, there are many, many very intelligent engineers working there.