Some history:

Vehicle is a 1985 Pontiac Trans Am, VIN H, T-5 trans. Originally came with a 5.0, and it's a car that my dad and I have been swapping back and forth since th 80's. It's been in the family for a long time, so I know the history of the vehicle in great detail.

My dad recently passed, and now I have the car again. Sometime in the early '90's we ditched most of the emissions control systems so that we could maintain the vehicle with ease. We left the CAT in place. It wasn't a problem since the car was registered in a state where there are no emissions inspections. However, I now live in CO, and I need to get it inspected. I had to source and replace all that emissions cr@p, and even replaced the aging catalytic converter with a nice 18" (numbers down so they could see it).

In any case, it failed the visual inspection. The tech says it originally came with 2 catalytic converters. Not only can I not find any reference to the second CAT, I also don't ever remember there being a second CAT ever being installed on the vehicle. And since the exhaust is not stock, I can't simply get under there and look.

In any case, I 'believe' that the tech is incorrect, and it only ever had one CAT. Maybe one of you smart people on here can set me straight.

There is a little more to the story which may not be relevant. In an effort to prepare for the dyno-sniff test, I retarded the timing quite a bit. NOX emissions were great, but I believe I retarded the timing enough to not only raise HC and CO levels, but I also believe that it burned the brand new CAT, so I think I have to replace it anyway. There's not much of a price difference in placing 2 smaller CATs vice 1 larger one, but I'd like to have a 'nugget' to poke the tech in the eye if I need to.

So, did this thing come with 1 or 2 catalytic converters?

 

Dual cats became optional in 1989. The tech is an ignorant buffoon.

 

What county are you in? Fortunately, we don't have that crap in El Paso County.
I never heard of any 1985 F-body having dual cats...

 

Dual cats was only optioned mid 89 and onward (N10). Early 89 cars can even lack them.

 

who cares if it comes with 1, 2, 3 or 4 cats. If one modern day cat does the job of reducing emissions at the tail pipe -vs- 4 old burnt out rusty cats that no longer work then what are we arguing about? Cars are allowed to be modified or improved, right? In some states, you can register your car as an antique and if only driven to test modifications or to car shows then you don't have to let some guy you never met ever touch your car again at the inspection garage again.

 

Can you just go to another garage... where the tech actually know how to do their job??

 

Cali care because they want to drive ALL older cars to the scrap yard! (I know OP is not in Ca.).

 

(or we don't want LA covered in a layer of smog again..)

 

Why not? It might hold down the smell of human feces and the Typhus disease.

 

I'm in Douglas county now. Castle Rock. I used to live in El Paso county (Monument), but I recently bought a house closer to where I work.

AirCare's reputation seems to indicate to me that this car was going to "fail" no matter what, but I want to give them as few excuses as humanly possible.

 

I 'could', but there is actually a little more to the story. I think I'm better off staying here and getting this situation rectified. I'll fill in the gap after I pass emissions.

 

As said, dual cats (it's short for catalytic converter, BTW; no need for the ALL CAPS) was an option on the later cars. RPO was N10. It was part of the G92 package (optional gears) but might have been available separately in some circumstances, I don't know those details to that level. AFAIK it was not available at all in 85, hadn't yet been introduced. No "features from the future" that year.

Pretty sure you're just dealing with an incompetent "tech" (I use the word loosely, my apologies to all genuine technicians). Not only incompetent, but arrogant, ignorant, self-important, and a butthole. If he would pull his head out and get up off his fat lazy glutei maximi and LOOK IT UP in a catalog (Walker for example) he'd find out the truth. But no... he gets paid the same whether he does his job right or not, so there's no incentive for him to be honest, let alone helpful.

 

Well, its harder to offer help if there is more to the story and you can't tell us.
Why not just purchase two modern catalytic converters with CARB stickers and install them? If it has two converters and passes emissions output tests isn't that enough?
I've understood that after California, Colorado can be the next worse for emissions. If the car has sentimental value to you I would start saving up for one of the GM 50 state legal E-rod motors. It is overpriced for an engine but you aren't buying just an engine. You're also buying the legal privilege of being able to give a giant middle finger to any emissions inspections while you hold up your 50 state legal certificate.

 

This car has been in the family since new. I drove and maintained it for several years at a time, several times, and I don't ever remember seeing 2 cats on it. So you are confirming what I know and have now thoroughly researched at this point.


I'm not sure that I want to go that far yet. I'll grant the belief that he may not know cars very well, but I have the feeling that he's following some unwritten/unspoken policy that discourages them from passing old sports cars the first time out--or at all in some cases. I had VERY many discussions with others about the inspection process before I took it in, and with people that do actually know about vehicles, and that have direct personal experience with Colorado AirCare. They appear to hold the same belief. I will say, though, that the guys at LKQ in Denver were very helpful in helping me source the correct parts, and they were very knowledgeable about the inspection process here.

 

I don't think that. You guys did a great job of confirming what I thought I knew already.

I may go that route. I'm sick of not being able to register the damned thing, and seeing it sit in my garage.

Your understanding is correct. AirCare Colorado has adopted Kalivornia emissions standards, if that tells you anything. Probably due to the influx of so many of them here.

Not happening. I have an issue with this on multiple levels of principle alone.

 

There are threads where members in Colorado have been screwed over by new emissions laws. You have to pass inspections before getting the collector plates. But you can only get new collector plates on '75-older vehicles now. It used to be 25 years old or older.

 

Your car didn't come with 2 cats. PERIOD.

Your car doesn't need 2 cats to pass visual inspection. PERIOD.

Your inspector is a BUTTHOLE and is LYING to you just to aggrandize his small p**** anxiety. PERIOD.

You don't need to figure out some way to graunch 2 cats on your car.

You don't need collector plates.

You need to either arm yourself with indisputable facts, or go to a different inspector. One that's got enough of whatever it takes to rub 2 neurons together and get at least one to fire, and enough motivation to look it up in a catalog and see what's ACTUALLY TRUE, instead of spouting off at the mouth and being a Richard Noggin. For that matter, print out, or take a screen shot, of the Walker catalog WITH YOU next time you try to get it to pass.

The very idea of a government official deliberately LYING just to cause trouble to some segment of the population they are supposed to be serving is OBNOXIOUS. You have a genuine BUTTHOLE on your hands, not sure why you "don't want to go that far yet" or even what that means. The TRUTH is the TRUTH no matter what minor desk jockey bureaucrat has a ****-on about it.

Colorado is a 49-state state, as far as emissions laws. They may (and do) adhere to the same standards as California for their visual inspection, but it's still a 49-state state. Which means, a CARB (California Air Resources Board) EO sticker is not particularly applicable, because California doesn't regulate cars in Colorado. Your car will pass the visual with a 49-state cat, i.e. one without a CARB EO #, because THAT'S HOW IT CAME.

Your problem is altogether NOT your car; it is your BUTTHOLE inspector. In order to solve a problem you first have to identify it. The correct identification of your current problem is your inspector, not your car. You can't solve the inspector by working on the car.

 

THIS ^ 100% ...

 

I agree. That's why I'm hesitant to jump to that conclusion. I have no evidence that this particular tech is lying. Instead, he may simply be mistaken, and without evidence I cannot in good faith call anyone a liar.

Another obstacle is the fact that the inspection system is designed in such a way that the working tech has to inspect these cars with "extra vigor". (My newer trucks don't get this much attention.) This is not the fault of a tech who is simply following the procedures laid out for him/her, but is the fault of the engineer who designed the rule sets under which these techs need to work. The system was undoubtedly designed by a set of Patchouli smelling, Kumbaya singing, Birkenstock wearing, non-bathing hippies who have zero technical acumen or education, and who believe that all of us should be driving vehicles rich in estrogen.

Meantime, I've mounted a second cat. It wasn't that hard, and I needed an excuse to break out the welder anyway, but now I'm battling exhaust leaks at the header flanges caused by disassembling/re-assembling exhaust joints that have been bolted together for about a millenia. I'm just glad that my dad was savvy enough to use hardware that could be disassembled with relative ease.

Gentlemen, thank you for your replies. I did not intend for this thread to turn into what it did. Once I pass emissions I'll start a new thread and give you guys the full story, and I fully intend to rant once everything is complete.

 

I experienced a similar situation two years ago when I attempted to have my 2000 f-350 7.3 diesel truck inspected. The tech at the inspection station wouldn't pass it because my truck didn't have a converter installed and according to him must have been removed by someone at some point. I called BS on his assertion as I ordered that truck new in August of 1999 and she's still bone stock (65,000 miles) and I think I would remember if I had taken a sawzall to the cat! I quickly googled some info on the truck and explained to him that the 2000-2003 models did not come with cats, he didn't care for my Google search results . In Texas when you fail inspection it is entered in the state's computer database so that you can't simply drive down the street to another station, you must return to the original station after corrections have been made to your vehicle. He wouldn't back off his claim so I left with my failed inspection slip of paper but I demanded that he speak with his boss and provide me with printed evidence that my truck came with a factory cat. Well I received a call the following day from the inspector who informed me that after looking into it further he and his boss determined I was correct and my truck had not come with a a factory cat. Everyone on this forum knows your car did not come with dual cats so my advice would be to gather as much info on your car from reliable sources and present it to him AND his boss/supervisor and ask them to provide evidence backing up their claims of dual factory cats on your car. Good luck!

 

These idiot inspectors are messing with people's livelyhood, and deserve a beat-down...

 

The guy was mistaken. That simple. God forbid a tech makes a mistake.

Everyone here on a high horse needs to calm down and really re-evaluate themselves. If you were calling the inspector a 'butt hole', that he was deliberately lying, deserves a beat down, etc.. well.. you just look ignorant ranting like that. Take off the tin-foil hate and come back to reality.

It's as simple as going to another inspection location.

 

Best of luck with this. I've also run afoul of incompetent techs at Air Care Colorado. Pay attention during the I/M 240 test - I was failed twice by a tech who wouldn't shift the car past 3rd gear during the high speed portion (IIRC, that goes up to 55mph). Whether that's intentional malice or just stupidity on their part, I don't know.

Although it might be a hassle, I suggest trying different stations until you find one where the techs are competent. The best I've found so far is in Dacono, but even that's hit or miss. Good luck!

 

And you said you have headers. If they are not 50 state legal, that alone will fail you.

 

Ya know what? I'm tired of people who work for the Government, enforcing laws WHEN THEY DON'T KNOW THE LAWS (that goes for Police too). They shouldn't have the job if they don't know what they're supposed to be doing. Like I said earlier, they are messing with people's livelyhood; negatively affecting their lives. How can it be a "mistake" when they have all the information pertaining to each model year of car and truck? HOW can he insist that a car from 1985 MUST have TWO cats when it was NEVER available with two cats from the factoy until YEARS later??? He's an @$$ for refusing to do a little research, and instead failing the inspection. Screw that. You wanna call it a "high horse"? Go ahead. I'm sticking to my position. This garbage will continue as long as the citizens are complacent and make excuses for such behavior...

 

Agree. My gripe is constantly having to explain to the "experts" or "professionals" how to do their job - especially insurance companies!

 

I'm not buying the "high horse" comment either.

Public officials are HIRED TO DO A JOB, the same as those of us in the private sector. Their JOB is specified by THE PEOPLE who elected officials whose job it is to MAKE LAWS. Implicit in the whole "election" idea is that the people as a whole, at the level of the individual, agree to abide by those laws, even if "their" guy lost the election, and laws they didn't like got passed by the winners of the election. And implicit in that is, that NEXT election cycle brings an opportunity to change the makers of laws, and therefore the laws themselves; and that furthermore, if YOUR version of what laws you want becomes enacted, that it's also the obligation of those others whose version DIDN'T, to follow them. We all have to work that way for society to function: anything else is pure anarchy.

Officials don't have the right to be a BUTTHOLE to the people who elected those who hired them. They are OBLIGATED to discharge their duties accurately, fairly, honestly, and without corruption (bribery etc.), because THEY serve the people. The people DON'T serve the officials; it's THE OTHER WAY AROUND. They are OBLIGATED to follow the law AS WRITTEN, the same as all the rest of us.

An official with the resources of AN ENTIRE STATE at his fingertips has no excuse for acting so ignorant; and even less excuse for oppressing someone in their attempt to follow THE ACTUAL LAW. He has no right to make up his own random new version of the facts to suit his particular whim at the moment.

Personally I think that the OP shouldn't put a 2nd cat on his car. He should, as said, just go to a different inspector, or, if he has to deal with the same BUTTHOLE again, arm himself with the FACTS of the matter at hand, such as with a Walker (or similar) catalog. Then if the BUTTHOLE refuses to get down off of HIS "high horse" and begin complying with REALITY, complain to the next higher authority, whatever that is in this case. (the BUTTHOLE's supervisor, the director of the agency s/he works for, an elected official, or whatever) In NO EVENT should the OP simply roll over and let the BUTTHOLE have his way. I know I certainly wouldn't. But that's just my opinion and of course carries no more weight than anyone else's who is not directly involved in getting this person's car through inspection.

 

I took it back for inspection this morning and was able to clear some things up, which again, I find debatable.

The idea that this vehicle came with two cats, according to the technician, comes from the VECI sticker under the hood. Under the CATALYST section, I have the following codes: AIR/BPEGR/ORC/OC

The tech indicated that the ORC/OC portion of the sticker indicates that this vehicle had 2 catalytic converters. ORC being one, and OC being the other. Not buying it, but it's irrelevant, as I passed the visual this morning with 2 catalytic converters. I did, however, fail the sniff test by a rather large margin.

I'll open another thread in the appropriate forum to discuss that. It'll have some of the missing background issues covered, so for those of you wondering what 'else' was a factor, you'll find it there. Warning: it'll probably be a long read.

Here's the other thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...ml#post6331717

 

ORC/OC usually does not mean 2 individual catalytic converters. They are usually combined into one unit. ORC is oxidation reducing compound, and OC is oxidizing compound. Also called a duel bed catalyst. If I remember correctly, some cars that have air injection system, the air is injected after the first catalyst but before the second catalyst.

Just a thought.

 

I find it entertaining that a state requires a car that was made in 1985 to pass any emissions inspection.


-- Joe

 

Cali requires cars made after 1975 to pass test MORE STRINGENT, than when the cars were a few years old!

 

I wish I found it as entertaining. I see this as an assault, but probably not in the way you think.

Let me first set up some thought processes.

Concept:
With vehicles of this era being exposed over time to wrecks, junk yards, rust, owner neglect, and the infamous "cash for clunkers" there are too few of these vehicles on the road to have any measurable impact on the environment regardless of how well or poorly they run.

Concept:
It takes an exception to adapt the vehicle to run cleaner than it did from the factory. I could not show up in my Trans Am fitted with a modern fuel injection system and expect to pass emissions. This is regardless of the fact that a modern cat and FI system would very very likely make the car run MUCH cleaner than it did with its stock set of emissions equipment. Nevertheless, the stock system is required in order to pass even the visual inspection. They don't even sniff it if it does not pass the visual, that is, unless you press them to do it anyway and they are feeling kind.

Concept:
Think for a moment about the types of vehicles that would have survived this era to date. The cars and trucks that have survived are likely V8, many with frames, and that were 4X4 or rear wheel drive. I'm sure that there may be a few exceptions, but the list is not exclusive to 3rd Gen's. With that in mind, how many of your wives drive these vehicles? Do they prefer to drive 3rd Gen's? Chevy Blazers, Ford Bronco's, '80s Mustangs, Dodge Ramchargers? How many women do you know that actually like El Camino's? In essence, there is a high probability that any car from this era that is still on the road is likely driven by a man.

I see no effort on the part of the rule makers to look at the realistic landscape of vehicle emissions. There are no longer enough of these cars/trucks to make a difference, and according to their rule sets they do not appear to be interested in the least bit in making it easy to allow modifications that make them run cleaner than they do.

It appears instead as if they are not interested in making them cleaner--only gone. Couple that with the third concept enumerated above, and it appears to me that this is not just a war on these cars. To my mind this is yet another front in the war against masculinity.

 

It's all about CONTROL. Almost everything the Government touches turns to crap. They want to run every aspect of your life. They really need focus more on National Securety, Law Enforcement, Infrastructure, Roads, and Emergency Services, and get out of our way. NOBODY wants dirty air and water. We all breathe air and drink water, but for the reasons you pointed out, the system is absurd, and there are those who intend to make it worse, like eliminating cars all together, jet airliners, even cows because they "fart", and raising taxes even more on energy. It's insanity. And all the while, these environmentalist whackos are still using oil, gas, and electricity. Pure hypocrisy. There needs to be a common sense approach to environmental protection...

 

I live in NYS... yeah I know...Anyway any car that is 20 years old only gets a brake test and light test. No emissions. All for 10 bucks. And yes as stated several times, dual cats was only available in 1989, my Formula 350 has them. They were gutted back in 1994 and even then it passed the emissions test each year until 2009.

 

They want to eliminate cars they cant control.

 

now that's a scary thought! people can barely drive on roads nowadays as it is. do you really trust the general public to fly overhead too? not me.
i doubt flying cars will ever happen. i believe the logistics of creating an infrastructure to properly direct low flying air traffic would be quite difficult.

 

So true T.L. I lived in Ca for 23 years, yeah, what a joke. Speaking of the government wanting to run every aspect of our lives......Think of this:
1. Go to Lowes and try and buy a simple incandescent light bulb that works in a simple lamp....Nope, 90% of all incandescent bulbs are gone now replaced with LED bull or something else. This is our government.
2. Try and find a high flow shower head like we used to have way back when...again our government trying to save water
3. When was the last time you checked out clothes washers? Try and find one with an actual agitator, the actually cleans the clothes, and fills to the top like they used to do. You guessed it, our gubmint.

I get so frustrated and pi$$ed when the news come on and all I hear about is elected, life term elected officials trying to impeach the President. They need to do their job and run the country and stand up for us instead of worrying about my light and water bill and screwing Flomaster around on a 30 y/o car.

rant over....carry on.

 

Difficult you say? We have lots of technology at our disposal. And thats only what the government/aliens/satan/overlords have allowed us to have . What's difficult is letting people know we can invent/design anything if we really had "Freedom", No limitations . Just look at 3D printing. If I would have brought this idea to your attention 25 years ago you'd think I was loco. When GM decided they were gonna engineer a 4 speed overdrive trasmission do you think they would hire someone who thinks it would be too difficult? The ruling elite have UFOs . I don't know about you but Id surely like to own a ufo with an infinite power source capable of going anywere in the world. Oh but that's just too much freedom wouldn't you say? Technocracy at it's finest. But I digress.

 

All.... WELL STATED and I COMPLETELY AGREE.

 

Who would have thought a car could be hacked 10 years ago? Laughable right? Well that day is here. I work in IT, and I LOATHE today's technology. Like I really need my refrigerator to tell my cell phone I am low on milk. Good god are people that dumb now?

Alexa, STAY AWAY ALL OF YOU. They are listening to, I kid you not.

Google was cool, when it was JUST a techie search engine.

 

I am in IT too, and I also LOATHE technology. It doesn't work all the time even though it worked 3 seconds ago.....

You described all the reasons I don't have too much technology in my house. I can't wait to move off grid, live in the woods by myself and leave society behind.

 

I have thought about that move myself. they day I need to tell some box to change my thermostat is the day I don't need to be here anymore.

I would love to build a cabin in some woods and leave the rat race behind, maybe in my next life.

For those who dont work in IT, stay away... lol

 

Are people that dumb now? YES! It's the Deliberate Dumbing Down of America.
And whoever named the Smart phone SMART was brilliant. People that use that device are geting dumber by the second - all the while thinking that using it is making them smarter. And they are even paying someone to else to let it happen. I will never own one. Even if you turn off the GPS, it's not disabled. "They" know exactly where you are.

 

I'm in IT. I work for a government security contractor, director of R&D. We develop the software you guys are probably worried about lol.

-- Joe

 

Eh.. Some of this technology is quite useful. I like being able to sit at my desk 35 miles away from home and check my security cams to see what my Pitbull is up to, if the UPS guy put my package on the steps or the porch when it's raining. I like to be able to check my thermostats and schedule climate controls. Checking the fridge is interesting, and I wouldn't mind that functionality. As laughable as it sounds, how many times have you gone to the market and said "crap, do I need more eggs?". I know I have.

As far as if "they" know where you are, perhaps, but "they" don't care. I've been blessed with both the opportunity to serve my country, work a lucrative IT job, and contribute to what I think is making a difference.

Government overreach can be a problem, but the voters are what give the government it's power to do that. Environmentalists, socialists - these are the threats because they choose candidates that create policy. This is why a 35 year old car has to pass an absurd test, and why they want you off the road and in a google car.

-- Joe

 

Without amending the constitution, no one has the power to do what ever they want in government. The government has been subverted and is wildly unconstitutional at this point. IT's not that government overreach CAN be a problem, it IS A PROBLEM.

Problem is that no one has read or understands the constitution or it's intent, even though there are supporting documents in it.

The government serves the people not the other way around, and people like this inspector and police fail to understand that. Anyone who works in the public sector should fear the people, they should fear the repercussions for telling this person that he had to do "X" to get his car to pass. It's BLATANT tyranny, and I for one am SICK and TIRED of it all.

 

Because the world just LOVES an old guy wearing a T shirt with a "Subversive" message , here's my favorite

(yes indeed , I actually do wear this)

 

 

x2 its nuts, thats why 80s cars are so cheap. Most are missing all the smog stuff anyways..days of paying for it are over.

Smog? Its still so bad I try not to travel there. Even Santa Clarita makes my lungs burn . Most of SoCal is an overpriced ghetto

Sometimes you gotta know peoples job better than them these days; a smog ref is your friend.

 

This thread has gone wildly off track. I love it. OP, hope you manage to get your tuning woes sorted out.

Oh, and I still have a few of these sitting in my basement if anyone's interested, PM me for price + shipping.