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We have not yet begun development on the 3rd gen. We are just starting the Fox Body Mustang, which should go relatively quickly as it's about half done already.
I'll post images and information once we get started on our teal beauty!
marolf101x : Any updates, even if they are not thirdgen related? Just want to know how things are progressing so I can get an idea of timeline. I have not worked on my car for a few months now, (house upgrades), but I am about to get back to working on the Camaro. Once I am wrap up the firewall and engine bay I want to move on to the minitub and rear setup. I want to make sure I can fit 335s and air ride.
Updates on when work may begin on the front setup? Even a clear image of the rear setup with the shockwaves and confirmed measurments would help a lot. I know I am doing air-ride, but I am trying to figure out if it is worth doing the shockwaves rear, and standard fronts, or wait for the new front setup. To be honest I just want to see the new front setup, chances are I will think it is a bit over my budget for this car. I just want to use it to tool around town, go to car shows and that pretty much it. Don't think I need to spend top dollar to get enjoyment out of the old setup. I really like the shockwave for the rear due to the simplicity of it all. And relative low cost.
The Fox Body Mustang is on the rack now, and getting close to being finalized. We then have a couple of small projects to get finished (new rear components for the 5th Gen Camaro we've been playing around with), then the 3rd gen gets some love. . .probably 30-45 days yet before it hits the rack.
I don't have anything to show at this point as we've not started on the 92.
As soon as we get it in the shop I'll have Shockwaves fitted to the rear and get some pics and good measurements so we all know where we stand in regards to mini tubs.
If you are concerned about cost on the front, but still want air we do offer a Cool Ride set up. Here's the link to everything for that car so you can see the options available at the moment: http://www.ridetech.com/store/muscle...ures_hash=V266
I've been in charge of our control systems since before I worked at Ridetech (I worked for the electronics company that built the first couple systems).
In my opinion everyone should use both level and pressure sensors with a digital system. It's the only way to know:
1-where the suspension is in the "real world" (level sensors)
2-that the spring rate side-to-side on the same axle is relatively similar (pressure sensors)
3-the orientation of the vehicle (parked on a hill while leveling, accelerating, decelerating, etc) (combination of pressure and level)
If you don't have both you have to guess at at least one parameter.
Air pressure is not directly relational to suspension height, so you need level sensors to "see" where the suspension is in its travel. But level sensors can inflate a vehicle to the correct height but have radically different air pressures, and thereby spring rates, so you need pressure sensors to figure spring rate.
When you have both you have all the info you need to attain the proper ride height each and every time regardless of outside influences.
That all being said we ran our analog system (gauge with a needle) for many many years without much issue. However, in today's modern "handling is king", wide tire world you'll wear those expensive tires in a hurry if the proper height, alignment and spring rate aren't correct.
Sounds like sound advice. Looks like this stage of the project will have to get pushed off a couple years. Either way, when I do finally take the plunge, I will be doing it the right way with the pressure and level sensors.
I am no longer directly in charge of the engineering department as I am now handling our military, OE and private label projects.
However, I do know that the R&D department is finishing up the Mustang kits and are working on some sway bars for Corvettes. As far as I know the 3rd Gen is next.
I'll post an update as soon as we start working on it.
No update from the airride side, but I for one have move to the next step for my build. Selecting the rims I will run.
I have chosen C6 Grand sport rims. They are 19x12 rear 18x9.5 front. I will be fitting some 335/30/19s on the back.
I have also concluded that the standard rear setup, cool ride kit should net be just about as much space as the bag over shock, for a fraction of the cost. Granted my shocks are not so great now, KYP AGX, but the nice thing is that I can simple upgrade them later. The cool ride has a 5" diameter bag and the bad over shock has a 4" diameter. From observing the spring pocket and shock mount location, it appears that they share a very similar center line. If that is the case, then the bag over shock nets me an extra 0.5" of clearance. With a full minitub, this might not be an issue.
That is the big question.
Figure I will do the following:
1. Install the minitub and make the as wide as possible.
2. Buy the rear cool ride kit and make some custom brackets to hold the bag since the stock brackets that come with the cool ride kit bolt to part of the spring pocket that will no longer exist.
3. Make a fake rim out of scrap wood to the grand sport specs and fit it in and see how it looks. If all goes will. Purchase a set.
I think this plan should work.
Still would be good to see some updates from ridetech.
marolf101x - Since I won't need the stock brackets for the rear, would it be possible to buy the rear kit bags with no upper mounting bracket for a reduction in price? If so, how much of a reduction? Finally, would you be able to take some pictures of the CAD, I don't think you can give me a .STEP file of it right? I just want to get a better idea of what the bracket looks like so I know what sort of fabrication I have ahead of me.
Air ride tech has a picture of the 4th gen front strut setup on the 3rd gen page. I called them out on this and they told me that is a place holder image because the actual 3rd gen setup is not done yet. They said timeframe for completion is mid next year.
I would think that means more like this time next year at the earliest. Fine by me, that might be when I can finally afford it!
Not sure on the air ride but I recently put in a mini tub in effort to run the GM 20x12 with 335's out back. In the end there just wasn't enough room for proper suspension articulation. Even with rolled fenders the tire was touching the fender and the panhard rod mount. It would require further surgery that wasn't worth it to me. it was a bummer. I've seen some guys say 335's are easy but when you see the car in person it looks horrible.
Not sure on the air ride but I recently put in a mini tub in effort to run the GM 20x12 with 335's out back. In the end there just wasn't enough room for proper suspension articulation. Even with rolled fenders the tire was touching the fender and the panhard rod mount. It would require further surgery that wasn't worth it to me. it was a bummer. I've seen some guys say 335's are easy but when you see the car in person it looks horrible.
Very true. I properly fit 18x12's and 335's on my 86 years back. It was a ton of work to clear everything. 8.5" of backspacing hits everything. Not sure it's really worth the effort other than being unique.
Great to hear from people that have tried this before. Any images of the major issues? How about images of the cars complete, either with the wide wheels or not.
Did you both minitub? If so, how far in?
I was thinking of potentially redoing the tubs if needed. The bag over shocks may need to be relocated. But might be more surgery than I fell like tackling.
Last edited by dennisbernal91z; 08-07-2018 at 05:01 AM.
I cut all the way up to the side of the shock mount pocket, partway through the center hump of the spring pocket. It's a big cut. Custom offset control arms and clearances the panhard mounts a bit.
I cut all the way up to the side of the shock mount pocket, partway through the center hump of the spring pocket. It's a big cut. Custom offset control arms and clearances the panhard mounts a bit.
This is basically what I did as well. Here are a few shots of a test fit of a Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tire from a Z06. These were the tires I was going to run on my Grand Sport Cup Wheels.
Tire hits panhard rod mount and still sticks out of the fender.
Here are a few more shots. Although it looks close, its not. It looked like crap in person but the pictures lie. You this all the time on the boards which seductively lure you in to buying expensive wheels. Only to do all this work and have them not fit.
Close, but looks horrible in person. No cigar
It's definately alot of work. Doing your homework and being able to have a wheel made to eaxct specs helps. 335's fit with enough room to allow me to now run a 345/30 Mickey drag radial. It's tight but no rubs. Looks horrible though
Well done. What did you do to your panhard rod mount? And you are correct about custom wheels. There is a lot you can do there. I think in the end I would have enough room except I am running stock style rear springs which required me to place a thin plate to prevent the spring from popping out. If you go coil over and or relocate the spring you get even more room. I finally punted when I didn't want to cut out and relocate the panhard rod. I will be able to run a 305 tire with ease with my change in wheels plans.
406TPI, can you please provide more detail on who made the wheels and how much they cost?
Also can you tell us if you had to do anything with panhard bar?
I am willing to redo my minitub if need be to find more space. I just don't want to be stuck redoing it all and then find that my air ride bag over shock rubs the wheel or something.
I guess I would consider getting rid of air ride if I can in fact fit the 335 out back. Wouldn't coilovers save even more space?
Forgive the cobwebs and dirt, I haven't been able to do much with the car the last couple years, life and all .....
Inside of the tub to the outermost lip is 15" both sides. Some light clearancing and reshaping of the axle side panhard mount and everything clears. No rubs ever, tires are under the lip 1/2". I have about 1" clearance on the inside of tub to the tire.
And the tires are getting small sidewall cracks .....figures
406TPI, can you please provide more detail on who made the wheels and how much they cost?
Also can you tell us if you had to do anything with panhard bar?
I am willing to redo my minitub if need be to find more space. I just don't want to be stuck redoing it all and then find that my air ride bag over shock rubs the wheel or something.
I guess I would consider getting rid of air ride if I can in fact fit the 335 out back. Wouldn't coilovers save even more space?
18x12 with 8.75" back space. It's on a factory width Moser 9" rear. Wheels were $1200 a piece being a 3 piece forged set-up.
Minor grinding to provide enough clearance to be comfortable on the panhard mount.
This set-up also required a modified tubular LCA to go around the tire. I also relocated the bump stops to the inside of the spring pocket wall since the outboard wall was removed. If you look close you can see it in the pics above.
406TPI: Thanks so much for the added details. This helps more than you can understand. I have been ripping my hair out trying to figure out what to do here.
I am aiming to build my car up as a show car that I can auto-x sometime in the future maybe. But primarily just a show car that I drive to work sometimes.
Racking my brain to sort out options and see if what I am planning makes sense.
I too have a Moser stock width unit. Mine is a 12 bolt though. Chances are the panhard bar mounting steel is identical.
I did notice the relocated bump stops. I was thinking of doing the same thing. As for the offset control arms, I talked to Spohn a few years ago and they said they can make a set for a few hundred bucks. So that shouldn't be an issue.
Now as for the rims and the total cost of the car, that might be my hard stop. For some reason I don't mind paying for a new LS3/T56 from GM (~$14K), but I do mind paying $1200 a rim. Not sure why. Your look amazing though.
That being said, I guess I could see if a C7 reproduction wheel might work with spacers. They are only $282 a rim and come with a BS of 8.301". Problem is that billet spacers start at 1" I think to account for the nesting of the lugnut. I would need a 0.450" spacer and that doesn't exist or is even possible.
I ran 1.25" spacers on my C4 Grand Sport replicas for years and they worked great on my 11" wide rears and 9.5" wide fronts.
Maybe I need to see if I can find an ideal BS of 8.75" off the shelf rim. Or something close that can use spacers to get there.
I would also need to redo my minitubs to make them even deeper like yours 406TPI.
ALL that being said, if I put in the bag over shock air ride under there, and redo the mini tub to make it deeper and leave the mounting locations on the body for the shock, stock, I think I will be in trouble.
The bag is 4" in diameter, and then add 0.5" of clearance around it and you get a 5" shaft from body to rear shock mount.
I think the 335s would hit or come super close to hitting the bags even if the mini tub was redone. I guess I could look into angling the shocks by moving the mounting point inwards a few inches, but not sure if that would screw other stuff up. I would need to learn more.
406TPI: Do you have any images of the inner tire to spring clearance with everything all mounted up? I may throw all that I can measure into CAD to see if I can get everything to clear, but without all the parts it is going to be hard to get precise dims on things.
I am not sure if it is 100% correct so if anyone can double check that knows there stuff about rim specs, please take a minute and check. Scroll to the bottom.
If you input a 12" wide wheel and an offset of +57mm you get a BS of 8.74". Goal was 8.75".
I then looked up the specs of some of the stock vette rims and the ones I like the most are the C6 later GS rims often referred to as Spyder rims.
Their specs are shown below from Corvette Central.com
https://www.corvettecentral.com/wheel-offset19" × 12"+5906-13 C6 Z06 & Grand Sport
If this is correct, that would mean that those wheels are only 2mm off from ideal. (0.078"). Seems really close for a set of wheels that costs $1,200 for all 4. (Have not looked into fronts offset suitability).
Shouldn't these work if I max out the minitub and potentially angle the bag over shock if they are too close?
I was able to fit OEM C6 Z06 wheels on mine. I also did my own mini-tub to fit the stock interior. It sits on QA1 coilovers and the rest is custom. My rear end is a Moser 9" that was originally made for a fourthgen. I took it back to Moser and had them narrow it 3/4" on each side. A custom width rear end is much cheaper than custom rims. Of course you should be able to get the same width as mine with a thirdgen rear end plus spacers.
I will admit that I have not driven this car since I did all the rear end work. It is a project car that got stopped for a while. Hopefully get going on it again soon but that part really is done and I foresee no clearance issues at the moment.
VortecZ: thanks for the input. Great to see your setup working out. Light on the details, could you provide more info?
Literally impossible to list too much detail, so if you have time, please do so.
Stuff like:
Wheels, OEM or reproduction? Size, offset or BS, tires, brand, type and size.
What did you do with your LCAs? Panhard bar mount or issues on either the car or the rear end?
How far in did you tub? 1/2 way thru the spring pocket like others like 406TPI have or less?
Sorry for all the questions.
When it comes to this level of "custom" people showing completed images of their setup leave quite a bit to be desired in terms of help or guidance.
Please, if you have the time, post all details you can. Thanks in advance for taking any time you can.
Yeah I understand. I know when I'm taking on a big project like that, I focus on the project and take very few pics. I always look back and wish I had taken more.
My wheels and tires are original 2007 C6 Z06. In fact you can see the car they came off of parked directly in front of it in that pic. The Z06 is the wife's car and she had to have black "spyder" rims on it so I ordered all new for her and kept the old ones. Those are 19x12 with a 59mm offset and the tires are Goodyear 325/30/19.
LCAs are simply just "offset" which to me means they mount to the factory locations but then have a have a step in them to go around the tire. The rear part is almost inside the rim. The panhard bar mount just needed a little trimming but was able to keep the original location. I have plans to look at that a little closer and possibly make an adjustable mount.
The tub cut goes right into the spring pocket but not through it. I cut into the pocket enough that you probably no longer fit a factory size spring but would be close. I started by welding in the top support plate that comes with the Sphon/QA1 rear coil-over kit. Then I cut right up to that plate. Cutting that much takes away from the strength of the subframe so I reinforced it with steel plate before adding back in the sheet metal. The main shape of my tubs are from cheap trailer fenders I picked up at Tractor Supply. They look a little funny but do the job.
To get the rear end width exactly right, I started with a thirdgen rear end and stacked up a combination of bolt on spacers, slip on spacers, and even regular old washers so was able to really fine-tune and get exactly what I wanted. I had the rear end on a little dolly and the car on a 2-post lift so I could easily go up and down and change spacing. Once it was all mocked up, take good measurements and run with it. I would never trust a measurement you read on a message board. Everyone's car may be a little different and I have found that not all thirdgen rear ends are exactly the same width either just because of the different brake combinations and the fact that there were 10-bolts, 9-bolts, and even the rare Dana 44. If you want to use spacers and can't find the exact thickness you want, I don't think it would be hard to convince one of those places to make you a custom set. A lot of those cheap spacers have cheap studs in them anyway that you will want to change.
As you can see in the next pic, I cut right up to the pocket for the top of the shock. I like to get wild with seam sealer when I'm done. Doesn't look very nice but it's good protection. Also, you loose you spot for a spare tire but that's a very minor detail.
This same car was 100% air ride at one time. It was all stuff that I put together, no kit. Anyway, I don't think there is room to do that anymore unless you can find some really small bags. I have never used the sleeve style bags so maybe they could fit. Obviously, with enough time, grinding discs, and welding wire, you can make anything fit! Speaking of that....this project takes a TON of time. It took much longer than I expected. If I had to do it all over again, I would take even more time and do a more professional looking job. The TSC fenders were a cheap way to do it but it would be nice to find something a little better.
I know what you mean about wanting to go back and do it again to gain a more professional look.
I still flip flop on if it is worth it or not.
Here is how the minitub looked a few months ago.
Slightly more recent image
I really like the 5th gen Z28 rims and they only go up to 11" wide so I might just NOT redo the minitub and go with those wheels and run a 315 and call it a day, and use the extra clearance to run the air ride sleeve bag.
VortecZ: What shocks did you run when you had air ride? How was the ride and what did you use the car for?
Looks like you've got a great start. Your mini tub width looks the same as mine so a 325 shouldn't be a problem but it is pushing the limit. You could always have 5thgen rims widened if you want to take it that far.
When mine was on air, it just had monroe stock replacement shocks. It took me a long time to get the ride to suit me. I played a lot with air pressure and spacers under the bags to get the pressure and ride height the way I liked it. I had 2500lb bags on all four corners. I finally did get it to ride as good as stock springs and shocks which was way better than just the 2" drop springs I had in it prior to that. At that time, it was my daily driver and I drove a lot but mostly interstate so the roads were pretty good. I think bags could be used for performance easy enough too. Just better shocks and more air pressure than I was using. Good luck no matter which way you go!
The car looked great on all bagged out sitting on bump stops.
I believe those are C5 rims correct? What size are they?
For now, I think I won't redo the minitub, even though I know I could do a MUCH better job this time around. I will just move forward with the 5th gen Z28 rims and move on. If I find there to be extra room, like you said VortecZ, I could always widen later.
Did you have a stock style torque arm under that car? I am trying to think what would hit next since I have not yet installed bump stops. Trying to think of what I can plan ahead for to allow it to sit as low as possible when aired out.
Also, did you have any kind of ride height sensor on your setup or was it all analog?
I am thinking of going with a RideProX and ride height sensors
Yeah those were C5 wheels from an 97-99 and are 17x8.5 front and 18x9.5 rear.
The bumpstops were about half the size of a factory bumpstop. That allowed me to get a little lower plus have just a bit more suspension travel. I used to take them all the way out every once in a while for a cruise-in or something like that. It would set the inner fenders right on the tires so it wasn't good to drive it that way. It had a factory style torque arm that cleared fine. The exhaust was probably the most difficult thing to clear. That bend up over the rear end has to be perfect.
I didn't have any fancy sensors but I did go pretty far with the height control. I had one set of switches and valves to give full control of up and down. I also had one switch that operated two valves that ran through two pressure regulators, front and back. I just hit that switch and it would pressurize all four bags to exactly what I wanted which was pre-set in the regulators. It worked perfectly and was completely reliable. Of course it wouldn't self adjust for a adding more weight but at the time it was mostly just me driving to work anyway and adding passengers really didn't seem to affect it.
Nice, thanks for the added insight. I plan to run the Hooker stainless long tubes and full pipes. I know I will need to move things around a bit since i have a shaved fuel door and a fuel cell back there.
I will keep an eye out for over axle clearance on the Moser 12 bolt. I will also have to watch out for the TQ arm mount on the 12 bolt and the thicker steel on the TQ itself. I have clearanced the floor to add as much space as I can with a patch panel, but I am sure this area will require adjustments once I have the rear in the car, the TQ mounted and am testing ride height vs aired out.
Hope the fancy sensors help. From what I have read they do, but who knows.
I am set on the 20x11s now. Here is how much clearance I have with my current tub.
I will use my current rims to check fit. Nitto 555R DR 315/25/17 on and 11" wide rim. Then compare backspacing of this rim to the new one and see what needs to be done in terms of spacers.
I would like to tuck the wheels as much as possible when aired out.
I think there is enough room for a 315/25/20 or something similar. Just need to find a tire that fits the bill. Not sure what aspect ratio to go with 20 or 25. More research is needed.
05-01-2014, 06:47 AM
