antman89iroc

The beauty of it is this...

If everyone was happy with a factory stock car we wouldn't even have a forum. Each of us has an opinion and since we live in a free country (for now) you can choose to cut it or not.

We can argue the theory of strength and whether we will die in a firey crash but the decision to "cut, or not to cut" is left to the individual. No one is stupid for what they choose and probably didn't ruin the value of their car if they did.

Mine is cut and I have accessed it a few times. If I had a showroom stock-low mileage 1LE I may not do it. But I don't worry about being rear-ended. That's what nitrous is for...

TA

iTrader: (1)

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

No effect on the strength in that area huh, were you on the GM design team ? Did you crash test cars with a cutout there, and without one, and then help decide to not put one there anyway ? Where did you get your degree in mechanical engineering to determine that area wont matter ?

What simulations have you run to calculate this and determine it ?

This is a unibody car you are talking about, even if the sheetmetal crumples afterwards, you arent seeing how the added strength prevented other things from crumbling far worse, can you show me pics of something like this, where the area of above the gas tank, with a hacked hole, to save 2 hours of time, looks like ?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

No, there is no beauty in this, only lazyness, each of us has an opinion indeed, do you give your passengers a warning each time they get in the car that you've hacked out a part of a unibody car in order to save 2 hours, that could very well cause them great harm or death ?

antman89iroc

Oh reeeelaxxx. The "beauty" is simply in the freedom to decide for yourself what to do. Don't twist my words. Someone can argue that improving horsepower increases one's risk of death. This little hole in the body does not IM MY OPINION cause me great risk. The arguement over the whole issue is rediculous. Do it or don't do it but don't try to change someone else's mind about it. True, the original post was WHETHER the poster should or should not cut a hole. Present opinions and EXPERIANCE and let them make their own decision. Someone showing a picture of a 4th gen that was hit so hard it folded the back seat area doesn't prove a thing. If that car had a 8 x 8 hole over the gas tank probably wouldn't have made any differance at all. But that's MY opinion. Share your opinion but don't get excited if it doesn't change everyone elses mind. That it the beauty of it all.

kauboy

Show me what the floor above the fuel tank looks like......

kauboy

Show me what the floor above the fuel tank looks like

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Yes, it would have made a difference, the sheetmetal there was twisted, its possible it may very well have been what didnt let the crash rupture the fuel tank.

Your right, it is your OPINION, and I definetly dont expect you to gain any intelligence and realize that you screwed up when you did that, you are after all the one who hacked up a unibody structure in order to replace a fuel pump instead of dropping the fuel tank, takes me a whopping 45 minutes to put the fuel pump in my hand, definetly should hack up the car instead

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

No longer have the pictures, the sheetmetal was pretty twisted and the rear seat was a little small.

kauboy

Too bad that would have helped you make a valid argument.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

No, it would have just illustrated it, for those too ignorant to understand that a unibody car gets its strength from the entire structure, and that hacking out a piece of it to save a negligible amount of time, while increasing the danger to those unfortunate enough to be around for the train wreck happens, is just a **** poor practice, I mean you could save 5 minutes if you only put one brake caliper bolt in when you do your brakes, you going to ditch a few of those too ?

kauboy

So illustrating it for ignorant people wouldn't help make your point?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I dont have the picture anymore, apparently its one of the few of the mangled disaster I dont have, at any rate it's a unibody car, its a weakening of the structure, and other people are at risk of being hurt by peoples lack of sense, who didnt get to make the choice.

antman89iroc

Dude (or chick I don't know) I really hate getting drawn into a discussion with someone just trying to pick a fight- remember you started by quoting my post. This will be the last I waste on replying to you. There is no reason to attack me personally by saying I am lazy, unintelligent or screwed up or whatever.

Do you have personal first hand information that the car in that picture DIDN'T have a cut out? I doubt it. Have you done stress test analysys of a car of this design with the cut out present and not present? I doubt it. For all you and I know the only reason GM didn't put an access hole in the car was for cost saving. You don't really know I bet.

You don't know my motivation for making an access nor the quality of work I performed. As far as you know my car may be stronger than before. YOU DON'T KNOW. I respected you and your comments but offered a different opinion. If you can't respect me then don't quote my posts.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Yes I can be 100% certain it didnt have a cutout, being that I was in that car when that happened to it, as well as the one who bought it back from insurance and stripped it for the drivetrain after.

No I havent done an analysis with and without, as GM delivered the cars without one, they obviously did their testing without one, and the crash testing without one, that means you dont get to try to use lack of personal analysis against anyone on the side of not hacking a hole into a car.

Again, I can have the fuel pump in my hand in 45 minutes, apparently you couldnt so you found hacking away at the car to be the short route, dont get my respect you seem to be hoping for, sorry.


You also seem to be confused, and upset, thinking people are picking on you and trying to pick a fight.

Probabaly because you want to defend your hackjob so much, and draw others into the same mistake, you want to think im "looking for a fight", sorry guy just looking to illustrate the truth so that less people go hacking up their cars for a minimal time savings, when they would be far better off learning to work more efficiently and get the job done right, rather than going hack-n-whack at their cars.

antman89iroc

A wise man said, "It isn't prudent to argue with a fool. On lookers may wonder who the fool is." Nuff said.

I respect everyone's right to their opinion and to do with their car as they wish, Even if their opinion differs from my own.

Edwardgp

I have to say I am with antman on this one.

cIaRmOaCrZo

complete hack artist in here lol. iv done several fuel pumps over the years on these 3rdgens including a few of mine. i have never cut a hole, but have done a fuel pump in one that did have the hole cut/lines cut, and it took the same amount of time to do it that way, than it did on the ones i did the "correct" way. a fuel pump barely takes 2 hours to do. maby less if i rushed it. so imagine if i had to do the cutting of the lines and access panel....tack on about another hour. so it takes longer to be a HACK, than a useful TECH...and for the LAST TIME, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DROP REAR END!!! the one and only benefit i could see from doing it in the art of hackery is not having to remove the exhaust.

Edwardgp

Ah yes this has always been a sensitive subject. I like the hackery phrase.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Wise men say things like that after fixing things properly, instead of hacking up cars because they arent good at repairing things properly.


The onlookers will usually be one of the two types also, those who know better than to hack into a unibody vehicle to change the fuel pump, and those foolish enough to hack-whack their way to a no less speedy fuel pump replacement, and then try to quote "wise men" hoping to call someone who can do it the right way a fool

You can claim your willingness to "respect everyones right to their opinion" all you want, but when you are dealing with something that can easily cost another person their life, or severe injury, due to your own "opinion" that goes against the proper way to do something, heres all the respect you'll see from me, some major respect for the lawyer that hopefully sues the living daylights out of you while holding you accountable for your "opinion"

PS: lemme know how many tenths in the 1/4, and how much time saved when doing your brakes that only one brake caliper bolt per corner works out to be.

red rock

iTrader: (2)

Just to be clear, I have never done this, or do i condone this, but for the sake of all arguments, This looks like a nice job if you were to do it.http://www.mifbody.com/vbulletin/sho...res-and-How-To

micktroup2

My current car was butchered by the PO to get at the pump- definite hack job. I will post photos when I repair the damage, but I am going to put in a proper access door as part of the repair. It will not be 'a hack job'!
As to those who say 'ooh hoo, that's a hack job! If GM wanted one there they would have put one in(what, and deprive their dealers of a $500 repair?)!
Well, why put in subframe connectors- GM didn't put any in and they are ENGINEERS!
Why tubular rear control arms- what's wrong with stamped steel?
Why urathane bushings- rubber not good enough for ya?
Why Dynamat under the carpet- you too posh for jute backing like the rest of us?
LED tail light mod?! If Thomas Edison's 19th century light bulbs were good enough for The General, they're good enough for me!
See where I am going with this?

IT'S CALLED 'HOTRODDING'! Take a car and make it your own. A mod can be a 'hack job' or a slick piece of custom work- it just depends on the execution!

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

None of what you just posted other than hacking an extra hole into the car included very potentially weakening a unibody structure

Dont call hacking up something with no knowledge for the potential hazard and injury, let alone complete disregard for both, "hotrodding"

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Weld some 14GA 2" wide flat all the way around this giant hole you hack into the structure, with blind nuts riveted/welded all around the perimeter, and a plate the same or thicker that bolts to it, then you might not have a hackjob.

Of course after you've spent all that time, I could have swapped the pump out 3 times, and would have only needed to once from putting a quality pump in the first time.

cc+ca

fuel pump door way to go.....
dropping tank is a pain in ..***
any one here done it on a vert.....?
with time you can make a removable door........
a nice factory look...use a doner metal from other car...?
use weather strip ....etc.
tex me pics or email me
7728281098 or email ... claudioalonso82@yahoo.com

jhainer

I know this is an on going arguement. to cut or not to cut. well i have both. one camaro is cut the other is not. the one that is cut is a once in a while street car more of a race car and also doesn't anylonger have a in tank pump it has a holley blue where the stock filter use to be. the other car has a intank pump. now last weekend i replaced the pump on it. about 3 hrs from start to finish dropping rear end and exhaust I even changed the shocks at the same time. my point is this 3 hrs to do it right and for what i had to do for the cut hole I have atleast 3 hrs into it with making the cover sealing the cover screwing it down or in my case i rivited it, and then putting the carpet back down. I had more than 3 hrs into it to cut it. it takes less time to do it right. my opinion I have done both ways. my 2 cents

nickfrmtx89

ok, when i started this thread back up last month after it had been dead for a few months i was just asking one question: has anyone ever tried dropping the tank without dropping the rear end? my access hole is cut, modified, and reinforced but i'm not crazy about cutting the lines and it's too tight to snake out, so i would like to disconnect the lines from the sending unit, take the tank straps off and let the tank drop several inches so i can snake out the sending unit as one whole piece. has anyone ever done this or how do you think it would work?

jhainer

I know this much you can drop it enought to change the pump with it still in but my son is skinny i couldn't do it tho ..

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I dont believe you'll be able to get it down enough to reasonably remove the sending unit.

However if you have a decent set of tall jack stands, you can lower the rear end enough to remove the tank without completely removing it, just disconnect the panhard rod from it, and the center brake hose, at that point you can lower it enough to remove the tank, the tank does not come straight down and out, you have to rotate the tank due to the filler neck shape.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Well at least someone is honest and intelligent enough to admit it.

Sinfulrelations

My cousin and i did this mod on his camaro, only difference being his was being done as a project car, we used 7 GA steel cut into squares, one was just a ring while the other was a solid plate, the ring piece was welded on the underside of the car with nuts welded onto it then we took the second piece and bolted it solid onto the ring, this way we pulled back the carpet took out 12 bolts, and could change the pump solid as all get out, and in the long run saved him when his 5 month old fuel pump went out on the highway, the picture i attached is similar to how the bottom ring was made

91phoenix

iTrader: (5)

From the previous owner's mess with the cut out I will have more than 3 hrs just into fixing it with a bolt down cover. Because the hole and lines were already cut I will keep the access hole just put a neat cover on it.
In my case 3 hours would be worth it to drop the tank instead of the many hours required fix the mess I inhereted.

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

And here is a statement that is one big reason for doing the Access Door mod.

Edwardgp

Lets cut the hole-- no drop the tank and on and on.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Really ? thats what saved him.

Guess it wouldnt had helped if a quality pump was used that wouldnt have needed messing with.

But yet again, I can have it out in 45 minutes, in fact i've done it in the middle of winter, in a parking lot, in snow, in indiana, with a small box of tools shipped to me.

Hacking up a unibody car to save an imaginary amount of time, is stupid, theend.

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

Lemme know when you do it on the side of the road, with nothing but your feet to walk to the store to get parts & nothing but a screwdriver & small wrench. You really want to do it again in 5 months after your new pump dies too?

I always wonder why people call it a hack, when other car makers build their car that way. I bet if GM had done it, people like you would still call it a hack & want to drop the tank.

BTW....Not a chance in hell that you got it out in 45 min. I've done the pump swap the correct way in my garage & it cannot even be done in 45 min there. MAYBE with a lift & air tools.....MAYBE. The End!

Oh wow....Just bothered to read the name of the Member I was responding to. Now your post makes sense!v

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Yes other car makers BUILD the cars with them, GM has built cars with them, what you cant seem to grasp is that the car was crash tested and built without some idiot coming along and hacking at the metal. This is not a full frame car, it is dangerous to hack out a chunk of it that way, severely weakening the structure.


You arent doing squat with a screwdriver and just a small wrench even if you've hackjob'd the car, if you've done it and have lines that arent likely to leak and start a fire you've flared the lines and got fittings there requiring at least two wrenches that arent small to service them.


Whenever you are ready to put your title up vs the title to my car, we'll see if your claim that I cannot have the pump in my hand in 45 minutes is true or not, but of course I already know how that one will go, how brave / stupid are you ?

Try to keep in mind i've owned over 10 F bodys, and worked on several times that amount, and disassembled probably 40x+ that amount.

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

Not going to entertain you any further with an internet pissing match. I'm not the small kind of person that feels the need to "fight" on the internet. Bye bye.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Yep, ya got me, called you out on your attempt at calling me out.


Welp we see what actually happened, you were looking for a fight, called me out, and I stood up, then you backed down.


How dare I try to make sure people dont hackjob their cars into piles of junk

Sinfulrelations

Almost positive when you buy a new part from a GM dealership its quality, hell remember the Toyota recalls? Brand new cars having gas pedals stick, what about the 4.7 Dodge engines? After 70 thousand miles with proper maintenance seizing up from engine sludge, or the 2nd Gen 4g63t in the talons with their crankwalk, all it takes is a small design flaw, to mess up a day. And plain and simple unless you have the exhaust off and the rear axle out from the car your not going to get it in 45 mins, I just did the fuel pump in my 3rd Gen last week, on a hoist from start to finish it took around 2 1/2 to 3 hours, with air tools, anyone who has worked on the underside of a camaro can tell you its a pita,

kauboy

Post a video and put all doubts to rest... I'd like to see that.

Sinfulrelations

Agreed!

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Get a thirdgen, and then make a video, for you lazy guys, who will still hack a hole, after doing it ?

Yep, get right on that, again, if you want to claim put up or shut up, you better be willing to put some $ where your is.

I can do it, that you cant do it yourself has nothing to do with it. I timed it, long ago just out of curiousity, if you cant do it thats your problem, not mine.

Sinfulrelations

Well ill make you a deal, this coming spring my buddy is putting a new tank and pump in his camaro, ill pay your way to prove me wrong, if your wrong bills on you sound good?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

If you're bringing it here, sure, though if its a rusted out hoopty from salt land, all bolts are getting broken loose first to verify they arent stuck, I said I did this on my own car and some others, not rusted junk.

Also, you do realize that i've already said previously that if someone really had to have an access point, what you described, is what i've already described previously in this thread as what would be acceptable, right ?

Sinfulrelations

And I agree I'm not sure if cutting away metal in that section of the car is a hazard or not my cousins 1st camaro had a access panel cut out, when he got rear ended that area wrinkled, but the tank was never touched, and I'm not saying you can't do it in 45 mins I just wanna see it done lol, and with his car no worries about rust its been garage kept 6 months out of the year all its life,

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I'm not saying every accident its going to cause the car to burst into flames, but as you already said, it took you around 3 hours to do the fuel pump properly, I dont see how anyone can justify putting themselves, and others at risk of severe injury or death, to save what ? Realistically 2 hours if that ?

Like I said working on a thirdgen isnt something i'm new at, and i'll personally admit my first time removing a tank from one took quite a bit longer than that 45 mins i'm sure, however I wasnt on tgo getting advice from people before getting started either.


You also have to keep in mind the majority of people arent doing anything near as intelligent as you posted you did, we're talking hacked open, ducted taped back together hackery, sure if you want to drop the tank, put a plate on the underside of the sheetmetal thats one continuous piece, permanently attach it, and make a matching plate for the topside, by all means, have at it, but realistically the original pump lasted 10-20 years, the likelyhood of having to mess with it again if you install a quality pump, properly, is slim to none.

Edwardgp

Hackery, for some reason I like that word. My time on this planet has exposed myself to much hackery.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Me too, from time to time I take pics of the worst stuff, I imagine people with hacked open cars to get at the fuel pump have wiring that looks like this within the same vehicle.

Sinfulrelations

Best job I've ever seen was when I worked at the local auto shop, a Guy brought in a 88 z28 almost every vacuum line under the Hood was oxygen line, battery cables had been made out of amp wiring and half of the wiring harness had been patched here and there with 18 gauge speaker wire I was glad the only thing I had to do was an oil change