Red 87 GTA

i hate the air system in our cars its so bulky and just freeken ugly

MY87LT

iTrader: (2)

Yea it sucks, but need it. Sad too see even late model Corvair's with the A.I.R. system.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Nice Article Shifty. it was very nice of you to reconstruct that for people that did not know. I wish I could remove my stuff but since I live in cali I cant

SiCkRs

iTrader: (6)

Hey would a code go on in my tbi if i install headers without the air tubes or would it be ok?

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

It will be okay. Just wont pass visual inspections. But we went over that before.

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, well, most times you'll get away with it with car's our age. Except for maybe some states in the northeast and of course California/Florida. Here in Missouri we just have safety inspections on cars older than 1996, and I'm sure some visual inspection is done during the process but I don't think in depth. I'd get rid of my catalytic converter but I'm keeping it on for the just in case visual!

SiCkRs

iTrader: (6)

Yea but what got me thinking was that i read in other threads that you have to get rid of the egr valve is that true or no?

irocz28_350

iTrader: (1)

So happy I live in NH. No emissions here, only 96 and newer and that is just a code check. No sniffer, nothing like MA or cali or a lot of other states. Just as long as your car has no engine codes you pass.

darksunshine87

ok so this one friggin huge thread but instead of posting a new thread in general help I figured I would give it a try on this one.

My car is a hose nightmare right now. Ive never really messed with emissions stuff before and am a bit of a noob with cars in general but the PO has so many hoses that go nowhere or are missing and I'm beating myself over the head trying to figure it out.

I'm wanting to simplify the number of hoses running all over the place. So what can I take off that wont damage my car? I'm not worried about emissions at the moment but I'm not sure what all I can take off or if I take off certain things if I would have to replace it with something else.

basically, I need a real gear head with a WHOLE LOT OF PATIENCE lol. Can anyone help me?


*edit*

or if someone could show check out some pics of my bay and let me know where the heck they go. I'm not worried about passing emissions but my car is idling rough and I'm trying to cover all the bases

DJK90IrocZ

Hello all...

I have a 90 Iroc, dual cats and the AIR system, NO emisson testing needed here in Maryland.

If I remove the AIR system, will the dual cats still work even though no air is going to them? Will they burnout faster?

Thanks!!

norcalz28

iTrader: (13)

Injecting AIR into the catalytic converter allows it to heat up faster, thus burning more hydrocarbons more quickly. If you remove it, the opposite will occur. Will the cat still work? YES, but not as efficiently. Most cars today have done away with air injection into the cat itself because they do it much more precisely than could have been done in the 1980's.

1986350

Hey guys and gals my friends are flipping out on cutting my smog pump belt. is this safe? I mean this is my daily driver, no emissions, and I hate all of the hoses and b.s. in the bay

fr3ed0m

yeah but i wouldnt have just cut the belt if your going to do it i would pull the hole system out and plug the holes in the exhaust manifold and the cat i dont remember the size plug you need but get the plugs and it will take you all ove 30 mins to rip everything out if your trying to make it simple get a intake manifold without the egr system in it and a 4 bbl non computer carb and start working on removing all un needed wiring from the engine bay it will look alot nicer when your done

darkhorse91

So I just want to throw in my $.02 on the subject as my AIR Injection was removed before I got the car. I live in ID and I have never gotten a visual inspection, just hooked up ALDL and stuck the sniffer in the tailpipes, until my last inspection in which case I was failed before I even got to the sniffer. Now I have to spend at least $300 at a shop of their choosing or get the entire system replaced and functioning within the next month. My problem with this is I'm currently part of a NATEF training program that is certified to do the emissions testing but the parts and labor doesn't count towards the $300 minimum. If you ask me it sounds like a scam for their chosen shops. I plan on pirating the AIR system from my RS and putting it on my B4C along with Dyno Don's Headers and a new cat-back (may just custom make a 3 1/2" because I can't find one) and new cats. Parts cost alone is close to $1000 even if I go with the hooker 3" cat-back yet none of that matters because it is not being done at one of the chosen shops. If I dump all of that money in and still fail that means I'm SOL because somebody else took off the AIR Injection system. Also it is a FELONY to remove emissions devices in the USA. it doesn't matter what state you're in because it's federal law. So if you're considering ever selling your car don't take this stuff off or at least keep it so it can be put back on. Another point i'd like to make is emissions laws change. The county next to mine didn't have emissions testing before but they recently changed their laws so in order to renew your registration you have to start getting emissions testing and I know a few people that now have to garage their old DDs because they took all of the smog stuff off/ converted to Carbs and can't get close to passing emissions now.
Sorry for the long post but I'm slightly irritated right now

RyanEricW

Why would you disable the EGR? What effects do you expect other than worse gas mileage at cruising speeds?


They have done away with AIR because it was a cheater system to sort of "dillute" the HC/CO/CO2/NOx readings to meet EPA requirements for emissions. Not to mention it's an expensive addition to a vehicle, takes up lots of space, and not to mention heavyy.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

This is a common misconception. The AIR system is there to introduce oxygen to the exhaust and the cat to allow unburned hydrocarbons to continue burning. This helps to heat up the catalytic converter which is only efficient at doing its job when its very hot and of course reduces the amount of unburned hydrocarbons from the exhaust.

New cars do not have this because of better engine control strategies, camshaft design, and closer placement of the catalytic converters to the engine.

EGR is there to reduce NOX emissions by reducing combustion chamber temps. Camshaft design can induce self egr to eliminate the need for an external egr system.

RyanEricW

While it helped heat up the cat quicker, it is no misconception that it was to dilute the readings. We have things called heated o2's and perhaps different catalytic converter designs today, not necessarily a complicated technology. If we wanted, we could program our cars to use the heated 02's, with alot of work.
And I don't think any cam we are putting in a 305ci+ is going to help with NOX emissions. My point was, it doesn't give you any benefit removing it.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Hate to be the bad guy but you are incorrect. Fuel continues to burn in the exhaust after exiting the engine. When there is no more oxidizer, the fuel stops burning. The result is hydrocarbons coming out of the tail pipe. AIR (air injection reaction) introduces oxygen so that the fuel can continue burning.
The average light off temperature at which the catalytic converter begins to function ranges from 400 to 600 degrees F. The normal operating temperature can range up to 1,200 to 1,600 degrees F. This burning of hydrocarbons in the exhaust helps to more quickly "light off" the catalytic converter.
The amount of AIR that your smog pump produces is tiny compared to the amount of exhaust is coming out of your engine. So even if it were pumping an inert gas in the exhaust, the dilutive effect would be tiny.

A heated o2 sensor is not new technology and there is really no programming necessary to use one. You are simply adding a heating element (power) to the sensor so that it too can reach operating temperature more quickly. They do not work under 600 degrees or so and optimum temp is 950 or so. You could reduce your closed loop temperature enable to take advantage of this but if your open loop afterstart enrichment and fuel/temp map are on the money it wont make a difference. You still need afterstart enrichment which is going to produce a rich condition on a cold start. This is an especially critical time from an emissions standpoint as it has been determined that this is when cars are at their "dirtiest".
Perhaps you confused a heated o2 narrow band o2 sensor with a Wideband O2 sensor?

And yes even a cam you put in your 305 can increase self egr. By closing the exhaust valve later the intake stroke will pull some exhaust back into the cylinder and reduce NOx. Just retarding cam timing will do this.

RyanEricW

What you say makes sense, but I'm curious as to see if anyone has any tailpipe readings, before and after AIR system removal. What can I say, I'm a skeptic =)

No I was speaking of a normal heated o2, I was under the impression, or so told that they give off different readings than standard 1/2wire o2's. Although there are a few different types of o2's (self powered, 2 wire, heated o2's), but o2's alike have different ranges, no? If this is the case, you would have to adjust the computer to recognize these changes (if they are present).

I have been seriously contemplating removing the entire AIR system on my camaro, but it might hurt the resale value, as it's completely stock and runs perfect.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

yes narrow band sensors can have different switch points outside of just stoichiometric but that is all. They just work like a switch. At their switch point they are accurate, outside of that they are not. There would be no advantage that I could think of to going to a sensor with a different switch point other than fooling the ecm into believing its richer or leaner than it really is. You may be thinking about Wideband oxygen sensors that read accurately throughout a broad range of AFRs. They are not plug and play in our cars.

As far as tailpipe emissions reduction from the AIR system is concerned, the main advantage to having AIR is reducing start up emissions. It helps get the cat lit off quickly and burn the excess fuel required for a cold start. Your F.I. system is programmed to run rich just like a carburetor choke causes a rich condition when cold.

When the Govt certifies cars for emissions compliance they do a much more thorough test than what you see at a tailpipe smog check. They test start up emissions, decel emissions, idle emissions, crankcase emissions, and everything in between. You could likely be just fine without the AIR system and just a cat for a sniffer test on a hot engine but your start up emissions will be worse.

Camaro305SB

Ryan - you can't "dilute" the readings. X - amount of CO is still X amount of CO, regardless of the oxygen readings. I'd leave the AIR intact, it doesn't hinder any performance at all.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

I believe the CO readings are measured in Percentages or PPM (parts per million) which is still a percentage. Increasing the ratio of Air to... Other stuff, would lower the percentage.

RyanEricW

Yes, it is measured in parts per million. I've used "tail sniffers" or chemical composition test equipment on vehicles, and I've seen a difference. People forget that the EPA raises the bar on emissions every X amount of years, and those companies that fail to meet those requirements cannot legally produce and sell that automobile.

Every typical car company has an overall fuel rating average, and every company must adhere to a certain average fuel mileage and emissions. This is why you see economically great cars (aveo and such) lol. It brings down the overage milage allowing companies to sell the gas guzzler trucks and such still.

Timmie

what I don't get about you cali people.
why don't you just buy 2 of the same F-body's, its not like they are expensive in the US.
make to the same Vin codes.
keep 1 of the 2 intact for smog checks etc and build the other one up.

1 car for hot rodding, 1 car for emission checks. 1 piece of paper for both cars. just always keep 1 of both cars garaged and not both cars in sight of eachother...

fr3ed0m

because that is a huge fine if you get caught and possible time in prison it is illegal to cheat emissions and even worse to mess with a vin on a car thats the type of stuff that gets gta on your record and if pulled over and the cop decides to inspect your car you can get introuble if your emissions equipment is missing

Timmie

so cops over ther do inspect your car on the side of the road if they want to...
and they do know whats in your car and whats not.

over here cops will only pull you over if something really ain't right ( think neons under car, very loud exhaust, speeding way to hard, aluminum FnF spoilers etc)

else they don't check, thats for yearly car inspection.
and since they don't know those cars over here is, they probably only say something like, you need to go to inspections with this car, etc...
so the next day, you take your other car ( with the same vin ) and go to inspections

91phoenix

iTrader: (5)

The VIN number plate has some special shaped characters and is put in with rivet heads etc that are not readily available. If an officer stops you he/she might look at that tag and see that it is tampered. This then becomes a chance for stolen vehicle and a lot of other issues such as possibly loss of license and jail time/court costs. We have never reccomended this on this forum due to the obvious major legality issues.
Back to topic.

Timmie

1 last note.

over here that vin behind the window doesn't even count, your vin number needs to be stamped into the metal of your chassis ( mostly the passenger fender next to the strut )
if you say to the peeps like " but you can read my vin from the plate behind my window", they say "anyone could put that plate back there"
"but anyone can stamp a number in the chassis also?"

anyway, people are Nuts over here.

1991 rs project

ok im new at all this and well here is where im at, the person that had my car before me took the cat off comepletely and i replaced the center pipe with a 2.5 pipe all the way back into a 2.5 single inlet and two 2.5 outlets with 3in tips, now my question is can i delete with non air shortie headers that bold up to stock y-pipe or what?

fr3ed0m

you should be able to you will want to delete the air pump as well and tuck the wiring for it somewhere so if you ever sell it someone can always hook it all back up if wanted, but not much point deleting the air system without getting a pully that goes where the air pump goes just to keep things simple otherwise there is no gain to be seen being the only gain you get is the weight reduction

kmcn47

hey all stock l69 planning on deleting my air pump (already took the belt off) but gonna remove it and the hoses, also the egr and hoses, and the charcoal canister and hoses, and wrench off my tubes then plug em with plugs (or jb weld lol) will this cause any issues other then my exhaust maybe popping a little?

Dakota W.

For those wondering if plugging the air tube to the cat will hurt the cat the answer is yes. Cats without air tubes have 2 walls to catch the harmful materials while the ones with the air tubes have 4, without the air tube you can't properly heat up the other 2 walls.

Dakota W.

Not sure about the evap can, but taking off my air system actually made my car pop less lol.

kmcn47

what exactly does the charcoal canister do?

fr3ed0m

to dakota w: that is good to know and to kmcn47 the charcoal canister catches the fumes from your gas tank and stores them untill started so you can burn them off being the biggest pollution is letting gas evaporate its not something you need but if you are worried about polution leave it in it doesn't hurt power at all and doesnt weigh much

kmcn47

now i know, probably still gonna ditch everything though

fr3ed0m

i got rid of mine in my 1972 c10 somehow it go clogged and it was causing my gas tank to pressurize and blow gas out my cap all down the side of my cab once i removed mine that problem went away lol and it looks better in the engine bay although mine used to be hid by the battery so main improvment for me was a few hoses gone lol

kmcn47

we have a 72 c10 it doesnt have one, was yours the 307?

fr3ed0m

nope it was a 4 bolt 350 4 barrel carb with a 3 on the tree