That's quite insulting when in an owner isn't offered a choice by the manufacturer. As mentioned by many above . . . in my case, the best engine offered in the convertible was the 305 TPI. Also, if you wanted to shift gears yourself (vert or otherwise) again the best engine offered was the 305 TPI.
Plus, for all the other factors mentioned above.

Case closed.

 

thats not quite true Because you cannot break down how many IROCs had the L03.

That L03 number is for the all Camaros.

 

Those #s don't add up even then...

20,067 IROCs
3,940 Iroc Verts

24,007 IROCS in total

According that they made more TPI engines then total IROCS...

 

Maybe the production #s include the engines that were built for the shelves, for warranties/repairs/single buys, etc. ?

 

Actually for me, it's the *only* reason I got a LB9 instead of the L98

I did. I had to wait three months to get it. too! (Ordered 12/12/88, recieved 3/23/89) My order got pushed back while they built all the Indy pace cars...

 

That's my point. You're one of the few.

 

Actually you can, its not that hard either.

Take the total number of IROC Camaros in 1988 or 1989 (since it was the only two years that offered the LO3 in the IROC) and subtract the number of L98 & LB9 engines the remainder of IROC's would have been LO3. There was NO non IROC Z28s those years.
Do some Math:

IROC 1988 - 24050 + 3761 = 27811
L98 -12116
LB9 -12620
----------------
LO3 IROC - 3,075

John

 

I am gonna check that but I think your way off somehow.

You don't run across TBI IROC s that much. Heck most people don't even know they made them---so if they made 21K--you'd see them around alot and they'd be well known.

What does this mean?

24050 + 3761 = 45811

 

I remember all the car magazines blasting GM for not coming out with the combo.
The 5 speed torque rating was borderline with the 350.
If they built the combo they would..
Have a beefier one made for a limited production run.....$$$$$$
Have too charge the customer more $$$$
Do another EPA test on the combo $$$$$$
Would have to SELL more fuel miser cars to keep the Corporate Fuel Mileage up.

ETC. ETC.

Also, why didn't more people buy LS6 Chevelles over the LS5 or Hemis over the 440? $ and maybe they bought what they wanted or could afford.

 

I've talked to many people with camaro's and trucks that thought they had a 350, After all no 305 had the power that they had, just by the seat of their pants feel. Well....Untill a mechanic told them "that's a 305 not a 350". Even after someone knows tells them they have some disbelief. I'm looking for 2 305 roller motors for long term projects... because poeple still give them away, also power per cubic dollar, mileage, durability, and the GM interchangablity

 

I have had the tbi 305 and the tpi 305 and now even though it is not stock I have a tpi 350. The L03 or tbi 305 was a good daily driver motor but my 3.1L cutlass would take it every time. The rs was my first car and I'm glad it had the tbi motor since I was like most kids with a v8 camaro. I beat the living S**T out of that car and it showed it when I sold it. If it had been my iroc I probably wouldn't be here today or atleast would be camaro less and I don't think i could handle not having a camaro. I love my car and will never get rid of it. There is definately a big difference between the tbi and the tpi 305's just like there is a big difference between the tpi 305's and 350's. Remember we live in a world where the small block chevy has the most aftermarket parts available then any other engine. And since the 305 and 350 have the same physical dimensions it can easily be swapped out for whichever engine you prefer. Unfortunately there were more 305's made than 350's but atleast they made more v8 cars then v6 cars or dare I mention the Iron Duke 4 cylinder. If you don't like the 305 swap it out. They make a 350 version of all the 305's so it is a simple fix. At the most you have to swap chips in the computer and if you can change the motor you can change the chip. If you have a tbi 305 and want a direct replacement 350 then find a fullsize chevy or gmc truck with L05 or 350 tbi v8 and swap chips from it also. Bingo direct replacement with hardly any mods needed. And all you need to do is find a tpi 350 and swap it in if you have tpi 305 car. Or simply build a 350 and slap the tpi on it. Esspecially if you have a maf car. I'm running my 355 on the 305 computer with a 305 hypertech performance chip and havn't had a problem with it. No lean condition or anything. Granted I'm sure there is more power in getting a 350 chip for it but it works. And if you don't want a custom chip for the swap in years that didn't come with the 350 IE-82-84 CFI 305's, 85-86 TPI 305's you can use the chip from the vette of the same year. They shared everything except the displacement, exhaust, and heads after 87 when the vette got the alluminum heads. Hope this helps. I have also seen people swap 350's in t5 cars and the trans held the power just fine. I personally believe the t5 is stronger than the 700R4 anyway. Happy cruisin all.

 

In all it all comes down to money. Those who have bought a new car or have simply seen the sticker on the window know that options can add up fast and the prices seem to add up faster. If you bought an IROC per say with a 305 tpi or tbi you are not only getting a cheaper engine the car itself it based on a cheaper platform. For instance in many cases a 305 did not come with disk brakes, open end rear end, no leather or basic styled seats, base electrical options. In general if you got a 350 you were getting your car loaded, unless your ordered it yourself or the dealer had a good idea to order a striped down IROC to suit the enthusiast needs.

My 1986 IROC and my 1989 IROC differed in price by about 2 thousand dollars because of this reason. The 86 had a higher price after options than the 89 did due to the addition to options. The 86 had a 305 tpi (the highest optioned engine you could get for that year) and all kinds of added options. It was no mistake that someone who was going to through down money on a top of the line IROC at the time would also want to be treated like it was top of the line too. Now the 89 was also a 305 TPI but was priced much lower. It had lesser options in it in terms of seats, rear end, wheels, and so on.

I think who ever said that GM was making cars to sell and not to appeal to the future teens hit it right on the head.

Kevin

 

Ahh i realized the first msg of this topic is kinda insulting...sorry guys...I just was frusturated because i have both the 305 and 350 and I used to have just the firebird with a 305 and was frusturated as to why it didnt have a 350...lol

Dammit this forum wont let me edit posts that are old.

ah well.. 2 pages not bad

 

you raise an interesting point--I too was frustrated (mostly with myself!) with my old car--a 305 TBI IROC.

Initially it was fine cause its all I wanted at the time but soon I was cursing myself for buying such a slow car.

And I cursed GM too--they never should have put TBI in F-bodies. It is a truck engine--plain and simple.

If I had been in charge back then this is the way it would have been.

IROC-Z/GTA 350 TPI or 305 TPI 5 speed

Formula/Trans Am: same but option of 305 TPI auto (3.45s) and no PEANUT cam lame 190hp.


RS-- 305 TPI 5 speed or 305 TPI auto

The cars had a huge variance of performance the way GM did it---and I think the slow cars hurt the image. I was so embarsed by my TBI IROC---I took the deals off---hoping that no one would wringly assume it was a 350 TPI and laugh when they saw how slow.

 

24,050 - Hard Top / T-top cars
3,761 - Convertibles

27,811 Total made My dyslexia kicked in I transposed the 24 for 42 and never even relized it when adding it up.

I think they are around more than you think, I seem them everywhere, its

 

Its NOT the TBI that caused the problem, its the HORRIBLE EXHAUST from the head ports out, the TINY LAME peanut cam, and the stock ECM tuning. Not to mention the awful 2.73 gears.

 

As someone who has owned both a TBI/M5 car now, and a 305 TPI/AT car years ago, I can honestly say that while the torque of the TPI was fun (the only AT car I have ever owned that routinely shifted at 2k, yet had no issue keeping ahead of traffic), I prefer my TBI/M5 combo. I know it isn't as cool or "exotic" as a TPI car, but its every bit as quick (mid-high 7s 0-60, high 15s 1/4 mile) as a 305 TPI/AT car and more involving because of the manual. Fast355 is correct about the issues TBI faced...however I agree that an engine with that low of a HP rating should never have been in an F body. Hell, TPI 3800s were making 165hp back then!! I will be addressing my exhaust issue momentarily...its getting Edelbrock headers to go with the 3" cat and Magnaflow catback. Combine these with the other bolt ons I have, and its an entertaining cruiser, and fine if you aren't racing. I wanted this car because it was inexpensive, solid and a great car to restore...plus I knew it would be about as reliable as a sundial, important in a cruiser.

With that said, I do wish it had a little more oomph to it. It is fun though, and I can't wait to hear how it sounds with headers

 

lol!

When I said TBI--I was meant the entire engine. I should have said LO3.

Point still stands....its a truck engine

 

It still put cheap, reliable, fuel efficient, V8 torque and sound under the hood of the F-bodies young people/students would own.

 

omg people stop saying that. if that was true, then why is it so hard to find a 5 speed 3rd gen????

 

I agree with that.........for some reason it took me a while to find one without paying top dollar.

Also I agree with Chris [Fast355] about the downfalls of tuning TBI as GM sold it. Truck or car.....who gives a shet........fuel and cubes equal torque.

 

when I was looking for mine I could never find the combo I was looking for tpi 5 speed 3.73, its harder then you think I finally gave up and bought my 82' z28 it had the crappy 305 cross-fire fuel injection and a turbo 350 with not stock 4.10 gears it all had to go now rocking a fresh 69' 355 w/ported out to 202intake 168exhust vortec heads putting out around 400hp maybe it's just me but with a car like that who cares about gas mileage, well i did go with the 700r4 for the od and 3.43 gears to help out

 

I know that the OP of this thread was talking about when these cars were new, but that's not the case anymore. When I was looking for my car I originally wanted to find one with a 350, and I did find a few, but they all seemed to either have really high miles, or you could tell that they had been beaten pretty hard. Either that or the body was rusted bad or was damaged in some other way.

When it came down to it I thought, "would I rather have a nice low mileage 305 that had been treated fairly well with a good body, or do I want a high mileage 350 that's been beaten to a pulp, full of rust or other damage?" I took the low mileage 305 with the better body. Sure, the 350 may be the faster car, but it's not like I'm going to be taking my Camaro out street racing. Even if it's "only" a 305 my Z28 is still the fastest car I've ever owned.

 

As an original owner of a '83 Z28, I remember those days well. We used to cruise around the various Chevy and Pontiac dealers in the DFW area on Saturday nights to check out the new Camaros and Firebirds from '83 to '87 or so...

The big thing for me about those 350s were that they were only available with an automatic, which I wanted no part of....and the 305 TPI five speed, also finally available in '87, was only down 10hp to the 350. And those 350s were only available in the IROCs, making for one nice, but EXPENSIVE Camaro for the time.

Regarding the '86's weak cam, remember, the Mustang GT had a power dip that year, too.....so it's not GM's fault. If I remember correctly, they were anticipating stricter CAFE standards that the Reagan administration eventually killed in consideration of it harming the economy.....so that's why the power levels started climbing again in '87 and haven't looked back since.

The absence of manual transmissions in 3rd Gens is all the dealer's fault - they simply did not stock their lots with them. In this matter, the Ford guys did a much better job ordering those Fox-bodied Mustangs with a proper transmission befitting a performance car....

 

i dont care what engine is in a camaro when i buy it, im looking at the body and other stuff cause i know as soon as i get it im pulling the motor and swapping somethin better in... my last 2 camaros i never drove more then 2 miles each before changing the motors, one was a 86 z LG4, and the other is my current 89 IROC L98....Out they went in went the better 350s....

 

My cousin ordered his IROC w/ a 305, because here in cali, it was the only way he could get a stick. 1985, I THINK. He still has it, approx. 70,000 miles, LIKE NEW!

 

Great Info !

 

I have myself a 1983 Z28 - with the original 350. One owner (good friend) before me. I won't touch one with a 305. Nothing more exciting than seeing friends/family slammed back in their seat when I hit on the gas. BTW: I'm female.

 

Well I will be special ordering my 5th gen or I won't buy one. I know what I want and what combos I want and I doubt I will find it on the lot. You just have to get a salesman and dealership that will let you buy what you want. I have that so I am set.

 

dealer will likely have exactly what you want. Not big variety of options will be available. 2 interior colours, auto, std, ext colour, stereo and some other small stuff.

 

With an attitude like that, you will soon be the doll of this site. Welcome to TGO!

 

Lets face it guys the Camaro has always been looked at by GM as the Vettes little brother. SO lets give them the TPI motor with a standard 305. Oh wait you want a 350 Manual " no way thats almost as fast as OUR Vette and way cheaper too. HMMMM,,, no its only offered in auto,, sorry!!!

Plus you know the sales guys were being slick and pointing out how much cheaper on gas and insurance and hey its still a V8 BS!!!

 

the reason for no 350 5spd was tq produced by the 350. because as so many on here will teyll u the 5spd are a very very weak...

 

I hate to burst the bubble but you probaly wont be able to get what you want for a while. Like most dealerships.. they'l want to jack up 5-10k onto the sticker prices...

 

The biggest motor you could get in a 1983 Z28 Camaro was the 190 hp L69 305 c.i.

 

yet another person falls victim to the ole "its a small block chevy must be a 350" train of thought...got to love how many people i meet with "original" 350s in cars that 9 times outta 10 had 305s....

 

The guy bad mouths the 305's and then claims a stock ("original") 350 in 83 Z28. Guess what is under the hood a 305.

 

Ouch!.....Burn

But I have to agree with some of the others.......most cars had the 305 because that is what the dealers ordered (lower cost) and had on their lot at the time people were looking.

Most people were concerned with the fact that they were getting a new car and not the engine size. And the average buyer test driving a new Camaro / Firebird with a 305 V8 were most likely satisfied with the power those cars had....and the fact that it was new and shiny.

 

Hey ... take it easy on the new member. She has to learn like the rest of us did. And maybe that "original" motor isn't so "original" and is a 350? Just take it easy before you "senior members" run somebody off.

 

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet.....No internet back then.

Today we can look up all the RPO codes, talk to people in different states/countries about new cars they've purchased. Find out what each option cost them and what they ordered. In today's world, something like a 1LE or Firehawk is hard to keep a secret.

Back then, the only real source of information was from car magazines or the car pamphlet at the dealer. And if you missed that month that they tested a new Camaro in Car & Driver, you basically didn't know what was what.

In the 1980's, the memories of 3 speed automatics and 4 speed manuals wasn't too distant. So the thought of ordering an auto when a 5 speed manual was offered seemed rather boring. These cars were purchased by people in their 20's and 30's who wanted a stick. A lot easier to sell Corvettes to people with an automatic because they were typically older buyers who just wanted something to cruise in. The 4+3 manual transmission offered in the Vette was deemed too expensive for F-bodies. I would say it's mostly true. Although you always wonder if it was for Vette vs Camaro purposes.

You're a salesman. You have a semi uneducated buyer. You show him the TPI under the hood. Then you show him the interior with 140 mph speedometer and a 5 speed. If that didn't sell him, the T-tops would. Next to that car would be a 350 TPI with auto and solid roof. Not as easy to sell. Personally I like the 350/hardtop combo the best. But that's just me.

I believe it. My dad ordered an 85 Corvette brand new. It came with every option normally available except 2 tone paint. He had subscribed to Vette Vues magazine back then, which coincidentally had published a list of all the RPO options for a new Vette along with other codes that weren't supposed to be available or were unknown. As a result, he ordered a black Z51, manual trans with the O/D on the shifter instead of between the window buttons (the early 85's had them between the window, the later 85's had them on the shifter....He had to argue with GM to get it on the shifter). He also ordered it with the 3.31 axle that was available on the 84 models but not on the 85 models (85/manual trans meant the only ratio available was a 3.07). But sure enough, it came with the 3.31 because he knew the RPO code for it. It had an aluminum driveshaft, and also had the sport seat leather option. It was the only 85 I ever saw with leather sport seats. That was a mid year option and not advertised as being available to buyers. The Corvette black book doesn't even list how many were sold that year. (During the 84/85 years, you normally got base seats in cloth or leather. Or you could get sport seats in cloth.)

The downside to this? He had to wait...and wait...and wait....The car didn't come until June and he ordered it right at the start of the 85 production year. Oddly enough it came with 53 kms on the odometer and some spray paint in the rear end area. And he watched them roll it off the truck when it got to the dealer. Looks like somebody at GM found a ringer and decided to have some fun with it.

 

My 305 TPI Z28 is my first car and I love every horsepower and torque it's willing to give me. It's also my first V8 and being a teen I don't need huge power.

 

tell the new memeber to take it easy on 305's

she said she wouldnt touch anything with a 305! my camaro was a 305 and i still loved it

 

THat will be true until you take a spin in a 10 second car then like a drug you cant get enough... I remember when I first bought and restored my first 1987 Formula I just wanted soemthing fun to drive it did not have to be lightning quick... A few years later I added TPI, SLP headers, Baer Brakes SLP Cat-Back exhaust, Subframce connectors, Larger runners... It never ends... Then I took a ride in a 10.5 second car this past weekend and realized how much fun that is too...

John

 

I have to agree with this somewhat.. I have the tuning bug also but cant afford it lol. I have been driving my 92 rs around and then I drove my dads ws6 t/a before and i almost didnt want to go back.. that ls1 is a beast..and it makes me want to get an ls1 dropped in.

 

A teenager should not be driving a 10 second car so I don't have to worry

 

Why did people ever order these cars with 4 or 6 cylinder engines, is an evern better question. Gas MPG is not an okay answer because the V8s didn't do that much worse in stock trim, and if gas MPG was really a concern, this was the wrong car to start out with anyway. The 4 and 6 cyl engines in the 3rd gens were so poor in the power dept, in such a relatively heavy car, I just can't understand being okay with a sports car that does zero to sixty slower than most everything on the road.

 

hate to burst your bubble but unless a 350 was swapped in it is a 305 car, there were no 350 3rd gens until 1987.

 

x2

 

Well it's all too easy to forget, but for the entire first HALF of the thirdgen, 1982-1986, the 305, in all its different flavors, was the biggest engine you could get (aside from MSE Trans Am's, but that's a different story!). My guess is that as sales started to fall pretty badly after 1986, the 305 lived on as a cheap alternative to the new 350. Not everyone had to have out-and-out performance, so the 305 gave you most of the thrill for a lower price.

Besides, more variation and more drivetrain options are always better than a one-size-fits-all mentality! 1983 F-Bodies had three V8's, at least 2 V6's, and at least 2 Iron Dukes, if you count export/Canada, so that's 7 motors to choose from. Variation sells more cars. From the 60s, all up through the early 3rd gen, having GM cars with 5 or 6 motors to choose was not unusual. It was common. Only in the 4thgen were we limited to basically TWO motors, a V6 and a V8, and I think the production numbers speak for themselves, although sheer car ugliness played a part there too. Much as I'd love to find a nice 87 Iroc 350 for example, I'm glad the 305 lived on to 1992.

 

I believe that a BIG factor for the cars not getting a 350 may have been due to EPA regulations and the CAFE requirements across each of the brands. The cars were light enough in most respects, as they were lighter than the 2nd Gen, and I have heard rumors that a HO car in 1984 would actually outperform a Corvette... I drove a CFI car and I was really surprised as it was tuned really well and it was a fun car to drive...

Its all speculation at this point and I am sure we will never know why GM decided to limit the F car to a 305 from 1982 - 1986... What is mostly interesting is once they did take the plunge of a 350 sales continued to decrease...

:shrug:

John