totall2tall

well they must have done it at the dealer because it looks like the rest if the decals not any newer and its a nice car dont you think good find

Krik

iTrader: (4)

Your car is worth what the next buyer pays for it. No more, no less. An asking price is just that, what you are asking or hoping someone will pay for it. If you want your car to be worth $10,000 then spend $20,000 fixing it up.

totall2tall

not wanting to sell it was just wondering it got to be worth more than 5 grand you would think

Iroctopless

Just food for thought. This is a Canadian perspective where 3rd gens in minty shape seem to be asking a lot more $$$.
I bought my '89 IrocZ 305TPI 5spd vert in '00 for ~$14,000cdn. It was (is) minty, original, never parked outside, never winter driven or seen salt, original owner, and only 27,000 miles at the time. Some may say I paid to much and others say about right. All I know it was love at first sight and I had to have her. I checked around at what other prices were at the time and nothing else was really any cheaper for that kind of car at that time.

Every year since I've had it appraised for insurance value (and not always by the same appraiser) and it's never come back at under $20,000cdn, even in today's market. Now I know that there can be a big difference between appraised value and actually market value, but I do know that the deal was right for me. And that's how the market works. A car's true value is always what someone is willing to pay for it. And I guess the only way to find out, is for me to put it up for sale and see how much I get. I hope that day never comes.

totall2tall

well your car paint looks much better than mine nice car ive only ever seen 2 covertables in person on 3rd gen

okfoz

I think condition speaks tons, Cars that have absolutely no rust, anywhere, I think will have a higher price tag than those that are rusty even with lower miles. Honestly I would rather have a rust free 100K car than a 10K car that has cancer...

John

Jason E

My Trans Am falls somewhere in the middle of that...its solid underneath, and has only 31k miles...but the paint is shot! The way I look at it, OEM paint quality was terrible as it was....with fresh paint, this one will be better than new and still have low miles.

I find mileage is the most important thing to me with these cars. You simply cannot turn back the odometer on these cars. With my IROC and Trans Am, everything from the turn signals to the HVAC controls to the power window motors to the tightness of the side windows...everything screams "new." In my '91, however, with 117k it FEELS like 117k, despite LOOKING brand new. The HVAC control is a little sloppy to operate...the driver's seat foam is weak...stupid things like the dimmer switch to the power window motors keep breaking...rattle, rattle, squeak, rattle...etc.

I have restored one, I have purchased a flawless original, and I have purchased one that is in the middle (my Trans am needing paint). If/when I buy another, for sure it'll have as low of miles as my budget allows.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

It's funny, cause my 87 Iroc sits in the garage with 60k miles on the odometer, my 91 RS has somewhere in the low 50k range, and my 91 Formula has 123k. The Iroc is a rattle trap, and it's always got something wrong. It runs, and drives like a car with 500,000 miles. My 91 Formula is starting to look a little rough to me, the drivers seat is riding low, and the drivetrain is getting soft with age, but it's still a million times better then the 87. My RS is a trip. It's a time machine that takes you right back to 1991. New car smell, no rattles, runs perfect... It's creepy the radio only plays music from the 80's. Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked. Mileage is just a number...

Ok, more examples... My 86 Trans Am showed 177,000 miles on the odometer. Aside from the drivers door dragging on the GFX cause the pin and bushing were almost wore through, rough interior, tired drivetrain, that car drove like a brand new car. The suspension and steering was nice and tight, no rattles or nonsense.

I've also got an 86 Mustang with not even 50k on the odometer. It was left out in the elements with a blown engine for most of it's life. It's rusty, all the rubber is shot, etc. It drives ok, and mechanically it's never let me down. But if you go by just the mileage it should be mint, but it's totally clobbered.

The point is you have to consider actual condition rather then just blindly trusting an arbitrary number. A car doesn't have to move an inch to rot away in a farmers back 40.

Krik

iTrader: (4)

Its all in how the car was taken care of. My Iroc with 118k miles looks as good as any 20k mile car. Cars that are maintained are a joy to drive/own.

okfoz

I think my 89 Vert is a really great example for why mileage to me is not as important as condition. On the one hand it really is a nice car, there is no rust on it to speak of but the car had to have sat outside for some time to have the cosmetic issues that it has. Obviously it will require a paint job if I were to show it. The car only has about 36K miles on it, so it is a lower miles car by all accounts (interestingly I know that out of the 42 only seven have the potential to have lower miles. Of those seven, there are 3 that had an odometer reading last taken in 1989, so Potentially it is the fourth lowest miles Formula 350 convertible in existence.

BUT it really needs paint to be a really nice car. I struggle with it as once i paint it, the car is no longer original. The original factory paint job was so poor that you can see the primer on the side of the hood where the hood meets the fender. Its absolutely awful. It does drive nice tho, The car handles like a new car should with 10 year old tires, the only thing on the car that would make it drive nicer is a set of new injectors as once it warms up there is a definite miss.

What to do? What to do? I really have not decided to paint it or not, I am considering taking it and having the issues taken care of by a professional, but i do not know if I want to do that either...

Honestly i would have preferred a 60K mile car that had great factory paint, but otherwise the same car.

John

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

if i had 30k it would go right here, right now. it is absolutely everything anyone could ever want in a rare camaro: 1990 (old gfx, new dash, lowest production year), bright red, 1LE, 350, 10k original miles, flawless.

id get that without a second thought.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...e&rdpage=thumb

Drew

iTrader: (58)

$34k and you can't drive it on a summer day without soaking the seats with sweat. No thanks, the same car without 1LE would be more fun. Ice cubes blowing out of the dash, just as much performance, and slightly less capable brakes... I just don't understand the 1LE hype... Rare isn't everything.

Timmie

the price of american cars always go down fast, then afterwards ( after 20 years or so), the price goes up again

like some people already said, LS1's are getting cheaper and cheaper, and some LT1 camaro and firebirds are now at a lower price then some thirdgens. I know that 4 to 5 years ago you could buy a 92 camaro or firebird for 2500 euro. and it had to be in good condition and no body damage whatsoever. now you already have to pay 4000 euro, and some people even dare to ask 6000 euro for a V6 firebird. I have seen prices asked for an 82-84 camaro 5.0 around 8000 euro's

( the reason prices go up after 25 years is because in many countries you dont have to pay taxes on the car anymore )


if I had the money, I would buy a hangar over here and start buying up some thirdgens. and maybe start selling them in a couple of years.

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

thanks for the insight timmie

okfoz

In so many ways I agree with Drew...

On the one hand its a really neat car, I consider it to be a Road ready race car. I am not saying that I would ever turn one down if the price was right.

However

I think Hawks sells 1LE front Brakes (or equal) for under $1000. Since the rear brakes were the same on 4 wheel disc cars from 89-92, all you would technically need would be the front brakes.

The performance was not significantly better than a run of the mill IROC or Trans Am, the gains you got in performance were from the lightening of the car because of the lack of AC (in most cases, and yes there were 1LE's with AC, and even one with T-tops and AC, matter of factly there were 1500+ 1LE cars with AC now that I think of it.

With all that said... I'm still with Drew, I like my AC, however I bet I would be proud to own a 1LE...

You could easily make up for the difference in hp to weight ratio by doing the "Free mods" by simply cleaning up the intake for better flow...



John

92 BBC Z

Are you meaning B4C cars( 1LE's with a/c)?

okfoz

The B4C cars I did not consider, and I would take a nice one of those... unfortunately the majority of those were completely used up by the police... however... hmm... mini quiz (& thread Hijack) what car produced in the highest volume that included the 1LE package??? Hint: it was not the B4C.

In hindsight (if you add the B4C) there was probably close to 2000 3rd Gens with 1Le and AC, and the majority had T-tops on top of that..

John

FlamingPhoenix

I do, I do

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I'd answer the mini quiz, but I don't want to ruin the surprise or the fun for the newbs...

What people need to remember is that the RPO code 1LE means the car has big front brakes, that's it. Nothing else in the package was specific to cars with that RPO code. Most of the time, the big brakes were only offered in cars that most people wouldn't want. Stripped down cop cars, special edition cars that went against the grain, overpriced super cars, and showroom stock race cars with no A/C.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

No doubt, a non-1LE with AC would be way more fun, and you could probably enjoy it way more because it wouldn't be nearly as collectable or valuable as the 1LE strictly from a value and rarity standpoint. But, AC ***** that I am, I never drive my cars except on the nicest of nice summer nights so on a non-daily, not having AC wouldn't be a deal killer--I don't drive my cars around at 2-3 in the afternoon.

That car above is really not something to be driven, it's something to be a trailer queen piece of collector's history. I would seldom, seldom, seldom drive it. Then again, if I had that exact car in non-1LE fashion, I probably would seldom drive that one too...god knows I don't even drive my 150k RS much.

But for me that's the third gen pinnacle...a 1990 (best year IMO, biased) IROC with a 350, bright red on black custom cloth, 10k miles, and hot damn 1LE on top.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

I sold my old 86 Trans Am in 04 for $5K in non-running condition with a bunch of missing parts, firebird tail lights that are just mounted, and mismatched 3rd and 4th gen wheels.
here is the car below that was spray painted with off the shelf black paint and the OZ's on the car were sold before I sold the car, ($5500 total if you count the wheels)

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

I'd say you got a pretty good price on that.

88gta6spdvert

ok here it is I have old cars presents collector car yearbook june 2006 magazine just normal of shelf at autozone few years ago 5.99 cover price some guys are not seeing what they really have maybe this will help 1-6, 1 is a excellent professional restored car 95 point car . 2 is a fine well restored car or a combination of superior restoration and excellent original also extremely well-maintained original showing very minimal wear can be driven 800-1,000 miles per year 3 is a very good completely operational original or older restoration showing wear also, a good amature restoration. all presentable and servicable inside and out. plus combinations of well-done restoration and good operable components; or a partially restored car with all parts necessary to complete it and/or valuable NOS parts. a 20 footer in other words 4 good a driveable vehicle needing no, or only minor work to be functional. Also , a deteriorated restoration or a very poor amature restoration. All components may need restoration to be excellent but the car is mostly usable as is .This is a driver. It may be in the process of restoration or its owner may have big plans, but even from 20 ft away, there is no doubt it needs alot of help. 5

88gta6spdvert

sorry had too many words for page continued pg 2 5 restorable : Needs complete restoration of body, chasis and interior,May or maynot be running,but isnt weathered,wrecked,and/or stripped to the point of being only useful for parts.This car needs everything. It may not be operable,but is essentially all there and has only minor surface rust, if any rust at all. While presenting a real challenge to the restorer,it wont have him doing a lot of chasing for missing parts. 6 parts car May or maynot be running, but it is weathered, wrecked,and/or stripped to the point of being useful primarily for parts.known as donor .I will start with camaros 3rd gens irocs since they are most popular and z28s 85 irocz 1=9,500 2=6,720 3=4,320 4=1,920 5=1,152 6=384 z28 200-400 cheaper on topend now I do 85 T/As 1= 6,800 2=4,760 3=3,060 4=1,360 5=816 6=272 now for 86s T/As 1=6,900 2=4,830 3=3,110 4=1,380 5= 828 6= 276 86 iroc 1=10,000 2=7,000 3=4,500 4=2,000 5=1,200 6=400 87 irocs verts 1st add 20 perc. for 350 add 10 percent for ann. edition 1=20,000 2=14,000 3=9,000 4=4,000 5=2,400 6=800 now reg irocs dont have specifics on t top/ht auto 5 speed some listings deduct for manual so neg.but anywho 87 irocs 1=10,200 2=7,140 3=4,590 4=2,040 5=1,220 6=410 now 87 gtas add 10 perc. 5.7 1=7,400 2=5,180 3=3,060 4=1,480 5=888 6=296 now 88 gtas 1=15,000 2=10,500 3=6,750 4=3,000 5=1,800 6=600 now 88 iroc verts 1=18,500 2=12,600 3=8,100 4=3,600 5=2,150 6=700 88 irocs 1=10,500 2=7,350 3=4,730 4=2,100 5=1,260 6=400 89 iroc z verts 1=18,000 2=12,600 3=8,100 4=3,600 5=2,160 6=720 89 ht/tt ? says 1=8,500 2=5,950 3=3,830 4=1,700 5=1,020 6-340 89 gta 1=15,000 2=10,500 3=6,750 4=3,000 5=1,800 6=600 89 tta 1=19,000 2=13,300 3=8,550 4=3,800 5=1,800 6=750 90 gta 1=15,000 2=10,500 3=6,750 4=3,000 5=1,800 =600 90 iroc vert 1=17,000 2=11,900 3=7,650 4=3,400 5=2,040 6=680 90 iroc 1=13,000 2=9,100 3=5,850 4=2,650 5=1,560 6=520 need particular others send mess

flippermtc

iTrader: (1)

Those books are great but for the most part do not reflect real world values for 3rdGens.

88gta6spdvert

you should look a vert prices and ann. cars too 1LE probably that time eqivelent to 1 gen ramair, super-dutys since they are being dismantled daily by part freaks guys robbin ,stealin, wrecking, and rustin, they get rare by the day

88gta6spdvert

91 RS PRICES per 2006 collector car yearbook conv 1st deduct 20 percent v6 1=14,500 2=10,105 3=6,530 4=2,900 5=1,740 6=580 now RS reg cars add 10 percent v8 1=6,500 2=4,5550 3=2,930 4= 1,300 5=780 6=260 no info on 1 les or b4cs or t-tops probably add 10 perc. for t-top 20 perc. for 1 le/b4cs cause distinctions are similar on pace cars and ann. cars of upper level cars so the same should apply not including PLAYERS cup cars or the 91-92 FIREHAWKS seen one 5 years ago local paper 125,000.00 and I know BRUCE at HAWKS THIRD GEN has a 1/1 green FIREHAWK probably never see another one forsale wanted to go check out but worked too much at time to go see.

88gta6spdvert

everythings open to interpretation, also keep in mind only people that know what they got are firm on their price ,desperate times call for desperate measures,cant get blood out of turnip, and lowballers getting in the middle of something they cant afford just causes the market to flutter , the seller gives in to the lowballer b/s and there is your real world price fluctuations , but the prices I listed are all day long prices to collectors that know the rarity of the items at hand and economy just takes big dump on market to finish it up

88gta6spdvert

I agree 90 is the year for z 28s,I was extremely lucky to find 1 of 3 factory cd players for iroc from canada also the 240 km/hr speed 5 speed ultra rare

scottmoyer

What language is this? Please make your posts legible people!! Make it easy for people to read. I am finding so many posts lately that have no punctuation and are hideous to understand. Thanks.

White'89

iTrader: (8)

I just went into this thread today and read the whole thing. Some interesting points but everyone gives the same generalizations. No one has accounted for 'technology' which is what I see.

By 'tech' standards in 1963 80k miles was actually pretty high. Give or take our 200k is like their(or your) 100k. What we consider low mileage on those cars 140k on our cars may be considered low in the future.

Horsepower was the rage in the late sixties. The combination of a good looking car and that hi-po motor is what people want. To be honest it looks to me like they don't care if it has a purple polka dot interior.

Now 'our' cars did not come with nice motor options, just a junk A.I.R system. What we will want is that car we used to mod back in the day and make go fast. Also I would want it with the body option that is hard to come by. Motors are changeable, but bodies for the most part remain the same. I'm 19, that will be me at barret jackson in 2040 trying to buy the Contempo camaro.



Is a 1967 Mustang desireable? kinda......Is a 1967 FASTBACK Mustang desireable? you bet your life savings

88gta6spdvert

sorry to offend your proper way there but this is just a site not high school

scottmoyer

You will find that the majority of the people on this site prefer proper English text and grammar. It makes for easier reading and understanding of the point you are making. This is real life. It's more important to be accurate and correct in real life than it is/was in high school. Finally, you will get more respect and better responses if people understand what you are saying.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I didn't read any of those replies because they were formatted so poorly...

Krik

iTrader: (4)

2E151

Which begs to ask the question, what reasonable price range should a clean, mechanically sound 3rd gen fall into. We're talking about something semi-desirable (IROC or Z, V8, T-tops, Manual Transmission).

Not a mint show car, modded or unmodded but with no major issues. No major leaks, creaks or rattles, descent paint job & a reasonably clean interior.

Just a general estimate, a ballpark figure.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

$3k-6k is where the solid desirable cars usually fall.

okfoz

Drew,
I think that is a fair assessment, Any decent looking, decent condition (no show winner) but a nice driver LB9/M5 or L98 car could be had for anywhere between 3K and 6K.

A LG4 or L03 definitely could easily be gotten for around 2K and 4K and a L69/M5 between 2.5K and 5K. The others like a V6, I never keep track of...

Jason E

Every one of these cars is worth something different...I've found you really need to do your homework before you buy one of these. Its important to consider we are STILL in a declining marketplace. I paid $12,500 for my IROC in June, and felt it was a great deal. Now, I feel like I should've paid maybe $11,000 or so for it...its still worth 5 figures IMO, but maybe I paid a little much. At the same point, how many dark grey 350 t-top IROCs with under 30k miles still on the original tires are around? Every one of those points added value to me, personally. Because this is the last car in the world I'd ever part with, it doesn't matter to me if I overpaid a little.

As has been expressed on here, cleanliness is critical to a lot of people, including me. I don't have the time to restore a car. Once I have my Trans Am repainted and the interior is complete, I will be in it for about $9,000. Is that a lot of money to be in an LB9/A4 '86 Trans Am hardtop for? Based on prices right now, absolutely. But, with only 31k adult-driven miles on it, I have a reasonable assurance I'm not in for any massive headaches anytime soon, based off the 1,500 miles or so a year I will drive it. That matters to me, more than some of the backyard mechanics that enjoy these cars.

At the same point, it is unlikely I will sell this car either. I really enjoy the car because of its low mileage, strong mechanical condition, and the fact its a TPI non-WS6 car (rides MUCH smoother than my IROC). One thing I am looking at right now though is the cost/value tradeoff with this car. I have about $4,000 invested in it. Can I recoup my investment, as it sits? Absolutely. I feel a 30k mile TPI third gen in solid mechanical shape that looks like crap outside is likely worth $4k. But, as I move up the ladder and fix more stuff, I know I will be backwards eventually. When I consider I can buy a nice TPI/M5 t-top GTA for $9k or less, having $9k in this doesn't make the most sense. At the same point, its the devil I know versus the devil I don't...

Its important not to just look at the price of one of these, but to also have a good feeling about where this is going. Things can snowball on these cars FAST, and the investment can add up quick. I made a real mistake investing far more in my '91 RS than I can get back. At the same point, I do have a helluva sharp, nice, comfortable car to show for it.

Now is a good time to buy one of these, IMO. Maybe I'm biased, because I've bought 2 since March. But to me, prices seem down right now, and these cars do have strong potential to move up in the future.

2E151

Agreed. I typically look at cleanliness most. Unless the car is showroom quality mileage can be terribly deceptive. Like someone mentioned a car can rot in someone’s backyard with only 30K on the odometer but still be a rust bucket.

However if the body and interior are clean and taken care of then the probability that the engine and drivetrain were well maintained is high, but if someone can’t keep the interior clean then the probability that they’re changing the oil (and other essential maintenance) on time is lower.

topduarte

iTrader: (8)

that is whatsold me on the 85. How clean the exterior and interior were.

After I bought it, I did discover that the maintenance on the drivetrain on this car was average at best. Engine bay was never cleaned in 25 years and I believe it had the original spark plugs.

Yes,my z28 is only an LG4 with 44k miles but cleaniness is what made me pay $5k for it.

Jason E

See, I'd rather have your car with 44k in clean, strong shape than an L98 with 144k that's also clean. And I don't even like LG4s

I know people on here will disagree with me, but I drive my 119k mile RS and 31k mile TA on a regular basis. The RS is in significantly better shape, having been gutted and restored inside, fresh paint, suspension etc. But, the Trans Am just feels better to me...and its all mileage related. No squeaks, rattles, loose items...it just feels solid. The RS feels its mileage...the TA does not.

stealthroc89

I just hate how most people think they're sitting on a gold mine because the car has Iroc or GTA emblems. Ya it helps, but $1700 for a poor looking example that needs an enigine rebuild is stupid. I understand these cars are getting old, but not old enough to justify that price. People like that are going to drive up the cost of these cars because "Hey, if he can get that for his car, I can get this for mine!". Now I'm certain he won't sell it at that price, but the effect it will have on the price of others will still be there.

eseibel67

Incorrect. Asking price has NO affect on market value. There are guys fishing for suckers all the time.

Buyers set the price.

stealthroc89

Where do they get the starting price, Kelly Blue Book? Most people go off other examples to get thier starting price without thinking of what the other cars will sell at. Ultimately, buyer does set the price, after negotiating the car down to what it should be and trying to get a little extra out of the car. Sometimes thats hard to do when the seller knows the "true" value of the car, we all know that type. Most are on par, but more and more people think they have a "rare" car and try to get more out of it.

scottmoyer

And these are the comments that make 3rd gen owners look bad. Why can't we ask more for our cars? What makes our cars worth less than everything else? Is it because we have so many cheap people that want to buy the cars and/or parts for pennies on the dollar? Why are the Grand Nationals worth so much? Because as a whole, the owners agreed that they would not sell for cheap to keep their "investments" alive. The 80's cars are coming into their own and they are starting to command more. Look at the Grand Nationals, the Monte Carlo SS's, the Olds 442s, etc. I didn't buy my car for investment purposes, but I have to say that I don't appreciate all the cheapskates trying to lessen the value on my car! I've already had that happen on my house and I lost a lot.

If you want to buy a car for $1000, then go look for a car that's worth $1k and leave the 3rd gens out of your options. Drew stated the other day that aftermarket companies build parts for people willing to buy them. The 3rd gen owners are so cheap that we don't have an aftermarket yet because the suppliers know we won't spend the few dollars needed to get a quality part.

Not sure why these cars are attracting the younger crowd with no money these days, but you will find that the values will continue to increase on certain top end models and all low mile clean models.

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

^GNs are worth more because over 6 years they made 30,000 examples. And they were actually fast.

There were many slow 3rd gens, and they made 1.5 million 3rd gen Camaros over 11 years. Its just a numbers game. When there are 3rd gens in every trailer park in the US, the price will be low.

scottmoyer

Using that logic, they made millions of slow G-bodies also. The Grand National was the top dog as is the IROC-Z (or Z28) or the GTA (Trans Am). The IROC and GTA were not slow cars either in their day either. Granted, they aren't as fast in the 1/4, but they were in the running. The difference there is that the 87/88 GBody was the end of the rear drive cars. That helps their value. Also, the GN has a top speed of 125 where the FBody is 144 or 154 (??). So does that make the fbody faster? top end yes.

I have also seen the Montes, 442s and GNs in trailer parks and generally abused also. My point is following a line of thinking that everybody here wants a car in excellent shape but isn't willing to pay for it as a whole or in parts. It doesn't work that way. If the members of the largest 3rd gen forum on the Internet are too cheap to pay a realistic price for a car, then they will never get the recognition or status they deserve.

as was mentioned in another thread, the guys trying to buy parts for pennies on the dollar to fix up their beat up cars will then ask how much it's worth and want to sell it for top dollar when it was built with the cheapest parts available.

stealthroc89

I wonder if the fox body guys do this? Other than the fact that they don't have anything like the GN or Corvette dangled over thier heads, we're in the same boat. On one side mucle cars of the past, technology of the future and here we are, right in the middle. Bastard childs of fuel injection and poor build quality. Sure, those are what kept the Camaro afloat and affordable, but it had to fall apart eventually. One thing the fox body crowd doesn't have to deal with is the "trailer trash" image and we do, why? Because we, think the same thing? Maybe its the Mustang guys way to separate from us and for some reason we accepted it. I didn't know thats how 3rd gens are looked at before I became a member, I always thought highly of them. With that being said, the car I was talking about is crap, if it weren't all original it would be a parts car. Maybe all original would be what someone else is looking for and is willing to pay for that, but for something to build upon and drive, it wasn't that. A dog lived in it, a bit of rust, engine locked up, last registered in '99, $1700 asking price? Come on! Won't sell for that, but why beat around the bush? Not a good way to sell a car that you need to get rid of.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

There are just as many irresponsible Fox body owners, just as many sitting in trailer parks and low income housing. The difference is that the enthusiasts don't focus on that crap, and they really don't even let those people participate on their forums. This forum used to be somewhat self regulating. Ten years ago if someone wanted to do something tacky to their car, or otherwise cheaped out, they'd be ridiculed until they either smartened up or left. It's still that way on nearly every Mustang forum I've seen. It's not just a money issue. You can have a low income and still do things right, and all the money in the world with bad taste is still going to look trashy.

Even better, most Fox body Mustangs are slower then third gens, or as slow. The build quality is much worse. Some of the most expensive aftermarket parts for their cars are things our cars came with stock. Scott is on the right track, the problem starts at home. If an enthusiast forum like this one doesn't do anything to help the image, then what hope is there?