jster1963

I don't say much here, but I would like to thank you for all the information and say KEEP POSTING! We love it. Excellent job........

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Well, thank you for the kind words. This is a great board, and the folks here are very helpful and supportive. It's also a great source of parts, and/or info on where to get what. Thanks, TGO Guys!

L695speed

Thanks, I'm getting annoyed because I know I'm right there. I didn't touch the internals or the timing chain. Other than the exhuast mainfolds, fuel pump, alternator, AC, blah blah blah on the front of the motor, and the switch from the donor's automatic to the original T5 in the TA it was a straight swap. I also swapped for the TA's distributor, and may have changed the timing cover. I checked Chilton's. The Firing order is the same, the timing specs are different between the two motors. I tried the TA's 6 degrees BTDC didn't work. Maybe this time I'll try the Caprice's TDC timing and try again. Really the biggest problem I have is the fact that the crankshaft bolt is starting to round off. Otherwise I think I have it. I'll run down your list again maybe I missed a step. LOL. Also I checked, a timing light works when the car doesn't run maybe I can see how far off I am. Maybe my 14 year old sister can help crank it. LOL.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Oh, there is no question that the light will function... just whether or not it will give you the help you are looking for is a question for me.

IF you changed timing covers, make sure that the marks are the same on both. If not, then you need to use the matched timing cover and crankshaft damper as a set, and not mix them, otherwise, you can't be sure that the timing will be right.

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

you working on it this weekend? I'd like to see it some time

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Yes, I'll be working on it. PM sent.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Elmer Fudd: More bwiefing?
Daffy Duck: More briefing...

OK... I will have some pics later today for you.

I found some great stuff at Advance Auto that you literally paint on over the weld, and it bonds to it. You let it set for 3-4 hours, and then you run the engine for 15 minutes and that cures it. It stopped the little pinhole leaks where I welded the pipe.

The master cylinder gaskets seemed to do the trick for the drain holes in the floor. In case anyone is interested, I used HELP! part # 42072. It has a nice little lip on one side that I coated with RTV and then I pushed it into the drain hole. Voila! The holes are sealed.

Then I replaced the leaky wheel cylinder, cleaned up the shoes, and bled the system. Good to go!

I left out a few details on the engine run: We immediately got a Check Engine light, which I ignored at first because it was a new motor and there was oil and whatever in the exhaust. After everything burned away and the engine seemed to run alright, I saw that the light was still on. Also, the idle was not 100% smooth, and it backfired occasionally when you revved the engine hard.

So I shorted pins A and B on the ALDL plug under the dash, and turned the key on to retrieve the trouble code(s). I got a code 15, which is the engine coolant sensor. Again, I thought it was no problem, since I saw that the TEMP gauge was inop. So off to the parts store, and I got a temp sender.

After installing the sensor, the gauge now worked, but the problem persisted, even after clearing the computer by disconnecting the battery cable. Then it was time to do some homework.

Ultimately, (and this information isn't exactly shouted from the rooftops) I learned that there are TWO coolant temp sensors: one for the gauge, and the other for the ECM. I had no idea where the other one was, but I went to Advance, and the guy gave me the one for the gauge. I told him I needed the other one, and he seemed puzzled... but after re-checking the system, he found the other sensor.

It took a while, but I finally figured out that the sensor next to the 'stat housing was the one I was looking for. I changed it, and then realized that I had a spare one from the other motor. Oh well. Still no help.

I returned to my Clymer manual, where I finally found a reference to the sensor in question... and language explaining not to confuse it with the gauge sender. FYI, it is in the chapter under "EMISSION CONTROLS". According to what I could see, the problem had to be either the sensor or the wiring. So, now it was time to do it the RIGHT way: troubleshoot and identify the problem.

The harness had been repaired right at the temp sensor, and an inspection showed that it was probably OK. The other end of the harness (which is also the injector harness on this engine) is at the rear of the engine. I took it in my hand and it literally popped off the connector. Hmmm. I had had some trouble starting it at times, and when it ran, it seemed a bit unsteady, but I had attributed that to the old fuel. Then I saw another problem: A ground connector that I had failed to secure right at the harness. I felt stupid, because I always tell people to check their grounds before doing any other TS or replacing parts.

I secured the ground, made sure the harness connector was in good and tight, and started the engine. Problem solved. The Check Engine light went out, and the engine smoothed down a nicely, except for an occasional miss. A quick check with my timing light on each plug wire showed that I had at least one questionable wire, so I'll be going to Advance today and picking up a set. She still backfires intermittently on a hard rev, but I am hoping that the new plug wires will take care of that as well. Since I have no ECM trouble codes, I am going to assume for now that the MAF sensor is OK. WHEW.

I have to go to my parent's house this morning and get the boat ready for 4th of July weekend... but I'll get those plug wires and install them, and take some pix this afternoon. Maybe I'll even tackle the new carpet installation.

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

sounds like you're making progress! I wanted to give you a ring this weekend! Yesterday was full of the girlfriend, and then moving stuff to my new house. Today is a mess with work this AM, and the girl coming back over for a cookout tonight. So much for a "relaxing" weekend lol

Good progress though!

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE

Good news! I went to Advance to get plug wires. They frustrate me so much -- like many other things I need (including parts for my 04 RAM 1500) -- they have to be ordered. So I picked up a distributor cap and rotor just in case.

I went home, and removed the suspect ignition wire. I noticed some black tape on it. One of the advantages of having 2 engines is a ready supply of used parts... so I picked out a nice one of the same length from the other engine... installed it... she is now as smooth as glass.

The backfiring also seems to be gone... the true test will be when I drive her. I'll probably throw the cap and rotor in for good measure.

Here are a couple of pix:

1. The inside, after all the prep, ready for carpet
2. The exhaust pipe with the sealing cement applied
3. the rear floor pan, with master cylinder gasket installed as drain plug.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Here's another pic. Believe it or not, the engine was running when I took this shot. Dang modern technology, I wanted to show y'all that she was running... it freeze-framed it like it was standing still -- BUT I SWEAR it was running when I snapped this.

PS no leaks, no knocks, no smoke... it's Miller time.

flaming-ford

iTrader: (7)

it's to bad i hadn't seen this sooner i might have had some parts that could have done you some good. Glad to hear see you 2s progress looks great!

if you still need any a/c equipment or feel like throwing a 305 in that other car let me know i have a free 305 short block out of a 86 lg4 car, had 38k miles on it, just needs hot tanked and crank polished, yours for free if you want her for the other car.

if you want any more info on the parts i have above let me know. quite a few parts lieing around waiting for someone to put them to good use pm me if interested.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Good deal. PM sent.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

The project is getting close to the final stage: body work. On Saturday, I insured and registered the car because it was finally at the point where it would be drivable.

We hit a couple of bumps in the road, though:

• I was unable to get a set of mounts for the rear sway bar to the axle tube. I solved that by using 2 muffler clamps (2 1/2") and grinding a flat spot in the bottoms of the shells.
• I discovered that this guy must have bottomed out on something, because the panhard bar was bent all to hell.
• I was having no luck finding the sway bar mount bushings with straps

I found a complete set of bushings and hardware (minus the axle tube mounts, of course) at Summit. Using my homemade mounts, we might have been OK, but the bar didn't want to go in right, and I thought it may have been because the links were bent. The guy we got the car from had just let the sway bar hang, and the links had gotten badly bent.

The kit from Summit had one incorrect bushing in it. I discovered this on July 2. I called them July 3, and by July 7 they had shipped me a replacement kit at no charge. Needless to say, Summit will be getting more of my business. We had to use a zip wheel to get the bent links out, and then I realized: the bar had been installed upside down. We flipped it over, and it went in beautifully, and our homemade axle tube mounts worked out perfectly.

In the meantime, I had found a guy on ebay, "TA Creations" is the name of his company (he has a salvage yard of nothing but Third Gens), and he had a good used panhard bar for $15 plus shipping. Getting the old one out was rather easy (we have the car up on jack stands and the rear wheels off). Getting the replacement on was another matter. Owing to the fact that the old one had been bent. we needed to do some pushing and stretching to get the replacement bar installed. Lining up the hole in the bushing for the second bolt was quite frustrating.

On to the interior:

We had bought a replacement carpet from TAMRAZ in Chicago. Their price was very good, and they are an authorized GM aftermarket company. It helps big time to have the old carpet, and lay it over the new, to cut the holes. The new carpet had the jute backing glued onto it, and that stuff was next to impossible to cut through. It was also a challenge laying the carpet in the car (we just did the 'front') but we managed to get it done. I know a lot of comments are made about carpet for ThirdGens, and I have to say that although the fit wasn't totally perfect, it was pretty good, especially given the price.

Another problem we faced was the condition of the seats. They aren't bad, but there are too many rips and tears in the covers. We have not had any luck getting suitable replacements without spending a small fortune, so for the time being we decided to reinstall what we have. I figure eventually we will find someone not too far away who has what we need, so we'll use cheap covers in the meantime. We then made an important discovery: Alex had painted the mounting studs for the seats with Rust Bullet (great stuff; a little goes a long way). This actually made the threads too tight, and we had to work the nuts back and forth quite a bit to get them all the way on.

We also have had no luck finding the wheels we want. "Nellie" (our '86, and the next project) has a set of the silver 15" lace wheels, and we will swap those over to the 87 and keep searching for wheels. I'd like to get the same ones, or maybe the same wheels in "gold".

One more detail to attend to, and she can come down off the jack stands: There is a dent at the bottom rear corner of the passenger's fender, where he either bottomed out on something or incorrectly used it as a jack point. I need the car elevated so that I can pull the dent out.

We got some pix of the interior, but they are in my son's new camera and he hasn't given them to me yet.

OH... we also got stymied because the 'nuts' that hold the front bumper cover on were removed on one side, and we don't have them. Anyone know where I might be able to find those??? I can't install the headlight bucket on that side without them.

Screamin86

iTrader: (1)

looks like everything is coming along very nicely! now if only i can stop starting on other projects and finish my thirdgens. btw what what was that stuff called you got from advance that you sprayed on the welds i can use that on the exhaust im building for my truck(newly accuired project)

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

It's not sprayed on... you brush it on. It comes in a little jar; it's called "CarGo ThermoSteel". It's dark grey, and almost looks like metal when it cures.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Still waiting on my son to get those pix out of the camera...

Got the dent pulled out well enough that we can deal with it with the car on the ground. Wheels back on... gave Alex instructions to lower the car tomorrow while I am at work.

I discovered a drop of engine coolant inside the car on the underside of the heater box... Alex panicked because he thought that meant the engine would have to come back out. I picked up a container of AlumaSeal, dumped it in the radiator, and ran the engine for 20 minutes with the heat on full blast. We got a little fog, and it eventually cleared up. I'm thinking that's a bullet dodged.

Unfortunately, the blower motor was very loud and almost nothing came out. I know from experience what that means: when Alex first got the '86, we had the exact same problem. The car had been sitting for a year without being run. I had pulled the blower motor, and discovered a huge mouse nest inside the ductwork. I'm thinking that history has repeated itself here.

The engine is smooth as silk now, and while it was up on jacks I shifted into all the gears. It's a little hard shifting, which I notice goes away if you wait a couple of seconds after you step on the clutch. I am very leery of putting too much lubricant on the pilot bushing, and the trans input shaft had no play in it after the rebuild. I am confident that after just a little bit of use, it will be fine.

Now if I can just find those dang nuts for the bumper cover, we'll be driving the car on its first test drive...

Screamin86

iTrader: (1)

sounds like its coming along real well

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

HELP



OK now it's time to iron out the bugs. Here's what I am trying to solve now:

• The nuts for the front bumper cover ("thread cutting nuts") -- on advice I found in another thread, I went to Advance, and found a HELP package with assorted nuts -- which were all either too big or too small. The search continues.
• The wiper motor is behaving strangely. After a couple of normal sweeps, it started doing this: Wiper arms travel about 3 inches, then reverse direction... repeats endlessly. I have never seen this... ideas?
• The right headlight motor only works in one direction. Since it is a two wire motor, and polarity is reversed to change direction, I have to assume that the module is at fault. Anyone tell me where the sucker is? My Haynes manual is useless for this one.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

After perusing other TGO threads...
and using the 'search' feature (like we are supposed to do) I think I have found the answers...

• actually, the self-threading nuts should be available at a good hardware store... Lowe's seems to carry them
• the wiper motor has a logic board under the motor cover... expensive part, but I found a guy with a complete used motor assembly on ebay for $15
• the headlight module is on the firewall beside the power brake booster. I'll check to make sure the connection is good, and/or try tapping it to get it to work... if no luck, I'll try to find a used one.

Screamin86

iTrader: (1)

good luck with the headlight issues i started having alot of problems with mine on my 86 back before i parked it a few years ago.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Fortunately, I have a solid electrical/electronics background to draw on... I am a former aircraft electrical/electronics tech, and can read any schematic. I was actually drafted out of the automotive tech department by aircraft maintenance (TWA, may she rest in peace) because of my skills in troubleshooting electrical problems.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

HAHA... after reading other posts in the electronics threads, I located the headlight control module. A couple of light raps on the module, and the headlights work normally. Too bad I didn't get that lucky with the wiper motor.

L695speed

Ternandes, I finally got the car running. It came to life around 5pm yesterday. I'm going to get the paperwork squared away and get tires for it so next Friday I can take it to the Muffler shop so the exhaust can be finished. I'm getting historic plates, (only requirement is 25 years old) and a regular insurance policy. No mileage limits, no inspections. It'll probably be a legit car in time for the F-body nationals at Island Dragway in NJ.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Well, don't leave us all in suspense, man... what turned out to be the problem??

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

I made a major score yesterday, thanks in part to thenjoshsays... he had a set of 25th anniversary Camaro wheels, and he is local to me... I needed a set of 15" lace wheels for "Nellie", since my son was planning to swap her wheels over to the '87... and I found another local guy who wanted the Camaro wheels, and who had a set of the lace wheels to trade.

I did the deal last night... talk about "Wheeling" and dealing...

L695speed

A combination of a couple things. Battery was shot, timing was off, and after checking the starter I reversed the wires on the starter so the battery lead was on first, and I threw the secondaries wide open. First time stumbled and died, second time after ten minutes on the charger it fired right up. started about 10 times since then on the battery. But due to the exhaust being wide open the most it ran was five minutes. Oil pressure is good, no leaks, it drives too (threw it in first and reverse and let the clutch out drove for ten feet then backed it back into its parking spot. (Driveway limited). The idle is high, and tires are shot. Tires I'll do when I put the car on jackstands, pull off the tires and go to the store with them, exhaust will be done next friday if all the paperwork and etc comes through. As I said earlier, I'm not breaking any law with historic plates and a regular insurance policy. Only requirement is 25 years old.

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

Theres another local guy near us? weird lol

Congrats on the progress! Definitely put a lot of work into your car

For the headlight module, if you need another, www.top-downsolutions.com will have it. Lon is amazing to work with.

Screamin86

iTrader: (1)

good at electrical huh...lol maybe i should have you wire my 86 ta and my 86 silverado for the lsx swaps they are getting soon

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

I'm sure I could do it... I once swapped a 2.8 V6 MPFI engine into a non-computer S-10 Blazer. I had to fabricate the wiring harness and some of the air induction components.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

UPDATE

As I had suspected, the 'squirrel cage' and surrounding areas of the heater box were stuffed with jute padding... a lovely mouse's nest.

With the car on the ground, I felt as if the friction point of the clutch was too close to the floor... on the trans/driveline board, I found a precise procedure for bleeding the clutch, which we will try out tomorrow.

I will also take Alex to school on stripping paint... we have until the end of the month to get this car on the road, or he'll be walking for a while.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

WHAT A GREAT DAY...

We drove the car! I fixed the blower motor, and got the thread cutting nuts I needed, so I could reinstall the headlight buckets.

BTW, those of you who need those nuts for the front bumper cover -- I learned today that there are two different kinds:

The kind with a standard thread, and the kind that goes over a non-threaded stud. Our cars use the latter kind. After searching from store to store, I found that it takes a 1/4" STUD type thread cutting nut. I made an awesome discovery in my search... I found what I needed at LOWE'S, of all places... and they had all kinds of specialty hardware: hole plugs (which I could have used for my drain hole plugs) shaft bearings, bushings, speed nuts, body bolts and fasteners of all types... I wish I had known this a lot sooner.

ANYWAY, we got the nuts, and the headlight buckets installed. The blower motor works a lot better without all the stuffing in it.

I found a post that said you could take the cover off the clutch master cylinder reservoir, and pump the pedal several times, and it might be OK. SO, I tried it. The friction point seemed to be right, so I backed the car out of the garage for the first time... Alex was riding shotgun.

Suddenly, as I shifted into first, the clutch seemed to be dragging. I shut the engine down, and shifted into first. From then on it seemed OK. We took her for a spin around the block, and other than a growling (for lack of fluid) steering pump, it was flawless.

Our engine ran well, and the transmission shifted nicely through all gears. It tracked well, handled fine, and was nice and stable, with a decent ride.

There didn't seem to be any further problems with the clutch, so for now, I'll leave it be. I have also read that they tend to smooth out after you drive them a bit, because any remaining air bubbles kind of self-bleed out. I'm not sure I buy that, but I'll keep an eye on it.

In the meantime, I put Alex to work with a belt sander and an orbital sander. We are stripping the car down to bare metal. Hopefully, we will have it ready for primer by next weekend.

WOOP WOOP!!

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

nice you guys are really rolling along!

Screamin86

iTrader: (1)

So...when are yall gona start on one of my cars?

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Well... THIS one isn't finished yet... and I have the '86 to do... it could be a little bit of a wait... unless you can sweet-talk me with some parts that I need...

thenjoshsays

iTrader: (1)

Hey Tim! Glad to hear you guys got the car out the other day! I'll be keeping an eye on this thread... and if you decide you want that T5 at some point just let me know. ]

And Justin89 - Of course there's other guys local! Where in the Lynchburg area are you?? Everyone knows this area is the place to be

Screamin86

iTrader: (1)

Hey dont forget about me! I may not be in lynchburg but im up between staunton and harrisonburg.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Going is somewhat slow at the moment... this car has 3 coats of paint and primer on it... so I am glad that we are stripping. Alex has never done this before, so we have to deal with his learning curve as well.

Bull

iTrader: (5)

I haven't spent this much time reading a thread on here in a long, long time. What drew me in at first was the title. Everyone loves a budget father/son project. What kept me reading on the first page was what you said about spending time with your son, his telling you that he was enjoying that time and the learning...that touched me as a soon-to-be-dad. In addition, you write very well, which is often a rare quality on internet boards...you must have a high level of schooling, read a lot, or just have an intuitive sense of what it means to be a good communicator. It also sounds like you are mechanically gifted, and patient enough to find answers through research.

At any rate, I am glad that you have made all the progress that you have, so far. I look forward to seeing updates on the body, and following you to the next thirdgen project that you do.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Bull, you have no idea how much I value your comments. Yes, I have a 4-year degree in Mass Communications, with heavy emphasis in English, and reading has always been a passion. I write for a local magazine, and I own and operate the local radio station. My schooling in Broadcasting always placed a huge emphasis on writing, particularly using proper grammar and vocabulary.

I worked my way through school doing odd jobs, but found myself doing mostly engine rebuilds, body work, and restoration. Since I never liked wasting money on parts that I didn't need, I learned the value of troubleshooting at an early age. This increased my value to people, because I could solve problems that left other people stumped.

When I got tired of moving around from job to job (name of the game in radio), I took a job as a mechanic with TWA. I worked on all of the motorized equipment that was used to service the aircraft. I soon built a reputation for my ability to troubleshoot a problem quickly, and without throwing lots of parts at it.

Eventually, I found myself working in aircraft maintenance. I was recruited by a manager who told me I had a better understanding of electrical systems that the guys he had working for him. Since my radio engineer's license qualified me to work on airplanes, I accepted. They trained me, and the first airplane I learned how to fix was the 747. Nothing like starting at the top...



Anyway... thanks for noticing...

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

I had forgotten the joys of stripping paint with a belt sander... Alex was really struggling with it, so it was time for Dad to step in. He wasn't making a lot of progress, but did manage to sand the engraved "C" in PONTIAC off his LH headlight door.

After experimenting with all of my available tools, we settled on, of all things, a flexible rubber mandrel that is run by a power drill. It allows us to follow contours without gouging, and we can see immediately when we get down to bare metal. This thing uses discs that snap into it, and I have a supply of them, but I don't know where to get more, so I hope I don't run out.

I also ordered a generous supply of adhesive-backed discs for my DA sander, in 80 and 220 grit, to smooth it all out once the bulk of the paint is stripped off.

I spent two hours on it last night after work, and I got about a quarter of the car done... now it's startin' to look kinda like a DeLorean...

Screamin86

iTrader: (1)

make sure your flux capacitor is working correctly!!

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

wouldn't it be great if we could go "Back to the Future" and get a bunch of NOS parts for our thirdgens???

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Alex is making steady progress... more than half of the car is stripped... it should be ready for some minor ding repair and priming this weekend.

Screamin86

iTrader: (1)

thats awsome make sure to post some pictures of the bare bird lol

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Screamin' 86, you read my mind...

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Well, the bird is not yet entirely plucked... but should be by sometime tomorrow.

I got frustrated with my old DA sander, which is probably older than some of the people who are reading this... so I went out and bought a new one. It works a lot better than my old, tired one, which had been through a lot and been dropped many times on concrete floors.

My garage now looks like the Land of the Blue Dust... we could literally make snow angels on the floor... Mama is containing her anger (for now) about the blue footprints in the kitchen...

Here are the pix (finally) from when we installed the carpet. In the last one, you can see the console that I re-glued and painted for him...

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Here's one more shot, after we were all done putting the seats back in... as you can see, we have quite a few tears in the upholstery, but we decided to defer that part of the job... (Cost and availability of replacement seats and/or covers would have delayed everything)

Our first priority right now is to get the car painted... we can then do the interior work little by little, and he can be driving the car in the meantime.

Screamin86

iTrader: (1)

the black and grey seats ar prob my favorite other than solid black on these cars. i did the same thing with my console for my 86 back a few years ago i think the black instead of grey looks a lot better on them.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

Yeah, and if you notice, we used a black carpet... the original was gray. Alex thought the black would look better, and not show scuffs and stains as much.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

OK, the bird is officially plucked! There was so much paint on it that it took quite a while, with most of the car having at least 3 or 4 coats of primer interspersed with topcoat.

Here are a couple of pix:

Alex and me, the "Blues Brothers", after a session of paint stripping... note -- today we looked a lot worse!

And the plucked bird... some of the grinding marks still have to be smoothed out, and those areas appear darker.

We found the DA in single-action mode to be excellent for stripping, then switching to DA mode smoothed it all out.

I'll do some detailed pics and take shots from a couple more angles next time I go out there.