Njs305t/a

Is my car WS6? The car has drum brakes in the rear and the car has a limited slip differential but i have these door panels



Were these specific to 1987(my car isn't a GTA).I think my wheels are also specific to WS6. It also has T-tops if that makes a difference. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Nick

JT

iTrader: (1)

Only way for sure to know is if WS6 is listed on the SPID sticker on the inside wall of the center console. Anything else is speculation and guessing given the age of these cars and the tendency to have swapped parts.

The Performance Suspension badge on the dash does not mean WS6 as this badge was also found on other non-WS6 suspensions.

The rear drum brakes does not mean Yes or No on the WS6 as it wasn't a part of the WS6 package (speaking of your application). You could get WS6 with drum rear brakes. I know because I have one with the proper RPO codes on the SPID to support it was possible from the factory.

I don't think the door panels means anything. The map-less door panels were sometimes found on 1987 GTAs, and as you may know, all GTAs had the WS6 suspension.

Njs305t/a

for replying so quick. I'm going to check the sticker in the center console tomorrow.

okfoz

in 1987 there were 3 interior trim levels for firebirds.
Standard, Custom and Deluxe.

The standard interior included the base seats, and the regular door panels.
The Custom interior included upgraded seats (with back seat pockets) and the "GTA" style door panels.
The Deluxe interior was only available on the TA & GTA, it included the "Ultima" seats and the special door panels.

1987 was the only year to offer the molded door panels with the custom interior.

The PW7 Wheels in 1987 were only available with the WS6 suspension. So if your wheels are original equipment then there is a good chance that it has WS6. If your missing your SPID sheet in the center console, then you could measure your front sway bar to see if either A)someone changed the sway bar, or b) if your car has WS6.

The WS6 from 1986-1992 had a 36mm front and 24mm rear sway bars...

John

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I don't have any direct information, but generally speaking the mid-late 80's WS6 had 16" wheels, while the non-WS6 Trans Am had 15s. In addition to what's already been suggested, I'd check the door jam decal for the tire size. If it shows 245/50R16s then the tires/wheels are original and it's likely a WS6. The wheels, combined with the "Performance Suspension" badge make it likely it's a WS6, but the best way to know is still the RPO codes.

Mudskunk

the Ws6 was standard on firebirds with the formula options package. so if your car has that package listed then you have the WS6 also included. my original 1986 formula was a 305TBI with drum rear brakes, did not list the WS6 on the door panel but did as part of the window sticker as a part of the Formula package. it came from the factory with the wide tires the and performance badge on the dash. my current firebird is a 1989 formula 350, has 4 wheel disc, and lists the WS6 on the door panel.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

The "Perfoermance Suspension" badge had nothing to do with WS6. And the PW7 (crosslace wheels) were available seperatedly fron the WS6 package.

Sorry to have shot down your ideas, except the RPO code.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Where is WS6 on your door panel? Are you talking about the 'Performance Suspenion' badge? That wasn't a part of WS6, nor any indication of WS6..

300hpse

iTrader: (2)

I kind of wonder about this myself with my 1990 trans am (not to distract from the op). It has 16" black crosslace wheels, maximum size sway bars, rear drum brakes, limited slip and the performance badge.

The bad news is the center console has been replaced (no rpo sticker) and to top it all off the doors and seats have been replaced so there is no chance of me finding the cars build sheet.

Ultimately I plan on paying the $50 to pontiac historical resources because I cant be sure if its a ws6 otherwise, really I cant even be sure if it had power doors (mirrors, locks, windows) to begin with since the wiring seems mildly hacked (and why else would you replace 2 doors on a rust free car with no carfax reported wrecks?). Even then it seems that phs has some ad reviews from some people getting very limited info.

I really wish the previous owners had half a brain and would have kept documents with the car

injdinjn

Yes, but the only way you would have 16" wheels on a TA from the factory is if it had the WS6.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

My 1988 Trans Am had 16" wheels (the PW7 cross lace rims) and no WS6.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Maybe, but I doubt that is true. I'm sure the PW7 wheels were simply another option to order, besides being a part of a package, Like part of Y84.

In any case, the original owner could have them switched before the buy, or after.

There is a local guy here, that bough a new 2010 Camaro SS, but bought new wheels for it, before it even left the dealership! So, the original wheels & tires has what? 2 miles on them? Off the assembly line, on to the truck & off the truck.

TPImoneypit

iTrader: (5)

If you can't find the SPID sheet in your car (as I couldn't with mine), bring the VIN# and proof of ownership to a Pontiac dealer. They'll print you the build sheet for free. That's how I found out that I have a JG1 aluminum driveshaft

JT

iTrader: (1)

A 1986 Formula? 1987 was the first year for the Formula.

Mudskunk

i bought it in 1986 new off the lot. it is possible it was the 87 model they were selling early. i bought it october of 1986 brand new off the lot. to me it was a 1986 since it was 1986 heh. it was a formula with the wrap around spoiler, red with t-tops and asymetrical hood and ws6 supsension with 305TBI. my brother ended up destroying it racing lights while i was in the army in the early 90's.

my truck is a year model 2003 chevy silverado x-cab with pro-tec bed. i purchased new ordered from the factory in begining october of 2002 recieved delivery novemebr of 2002.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Model years are not equal to the production year. IIRC normally model year production starts like Aug-Sept for "new models". So Oct 86 would very easily be a 87 model year car.

Mudskunk

like i said it could very well have been a 1987 model year. but to me it was a 1986 i know i got the window sticker in one of my boxes of junk in the basement i havent looked in, in over 20 years that might have the year model it was. dunno.

its always gonna be my 1986 formula in my memmory. i still curse the day i decided not to drive it to louisiana to the docks and ship it to hawaii with me for my duty tour.

my 1989 formula 350 is a better car but i would trade it in a second to get my original formula back.

JT

iTrader: (1)

It would have to be a 1987 since that was the first model year the Formula was available to the ThirdGen (though the Formula nameplate was previously used before the ThirdGen).

I think it's always good to hear from original owners who ordered and bought their ThirdGen when it was new.

Njs305t/a

Well i checked today and there is no sticker inside the center console. if it is supposed to be on the lid it's not there but inside the center console itself it looks like a sticker was peeled off because there is still glue there. I also checked in the compartment in the trunk. Are there any other ways to tell or am i gonna have to get this thing on a lift and measure the sway bars?

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

I understand, however this is how myths get started and bad information perpetuates. The problem is you start telling people you had a 1986 Firebird Formula, and people who don't know any better believe you, as you bought the car new, no reason to not believe you. Then someone says "Forumlas didn't come out until 87" and that person says "Nu uh, I know a guy who had a 1986 Forumla and he bought it new", now misinformation is being spread under the guise of "I know a guy who had this". It's why there are so many stories of 350 5-speeds running around out there.. everyone also knew someone with a 350 and a 5-speed from GM, however not one has actually shown up with a SPID to back it up

JT

iTrader: (1)

It is not supposed to be on the center console lid itself, but the inside wall of the center console. You are correct that you are likely seeing glue on the inside wall of the center console where the sticker once was.

Outside of inventorying the WS6 components (which can be easily changed), the only two options are:

1) If the vehicle happens to be Canadian, you can run the VIN through a Canadian GM dealership to get a listing of the RPO codes. Canadian cars had better records. The Canadian dealerships can pull RPO codes for Canadian vehicles further back than what you can find here in the states if the car remained in the US.

2) You can contact GM's Media archive and pay $50 to get a copy of the invoice - which should list WS6 if the vehicle was equipped with it.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Are you wanting it to be 100% original? Is it really that important to check everythigh out, for 'WS6' purposes?

I KNOW my 87 GTA is Y84 GTA. The SPID sheet was out when I got the car, but I proceeded to loose the SPID sheet. There are no longer any GTA badges on the car (except the horn button), the Ultima front seats are gone, different wheels, different springs, different exhaust, different mirrors, 4th gen wing, custom tailights, cut wiring.......and so much more has been changed, not much left is a GTA anymore.

Do I care if someone says "No Y84 = not a GTA." But it is MY car, I am HAPPY with it & that is what counts. And it isn't for sale anyways (short of a BIG stupid $$$$ offere).

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The badge came on some cars without WS6, but every WS6 car came with the badge.
The wheels may have been available on non-WS6 cars, but at least in 85-86 non-WS6 cars had 15" wheels. Later in production, WS6 cars had 245/50s while non-WS6 cars had 215/60R16s. So once again, while I don't have any concrete information for 1987 Firebirds, and it's not a positive way to identify, it's a good indicator.

Can you prove that PW7 wheels were an option that could be applied without buying a package that included WS6 in 1987? Cause if you can't, you don't really have any ground to say anyone else is wrong. Maybe a scan of a 1987 Firebird sales brochure or order form could clear this issue up?

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Did you mean 215/60R15s? I can't imagine a 215 on a 8" wheel. But I know there are some cosslace-style 15" wheels.


No, I cannot PROVE it. Nor do I car to. I didn't say I KNOW it anyways. Just that I was sure of it.....There is a difference

Besides that, I don't care enough to say. I didn't even say that you WERE wrong Don't take it so personal! I just don't like reading things that people state as if it was a fact. Can you PROVE what you said?

Think of 1987 GTA/Y84 compared to 88+ GTA/Y84. BIG difference in the technicalities, but amounted to the same thing.

In the end, I do believe there were posts after mine, backing me up on PW7s on non-WS6 cars.

TPImoneypit

iTrader: (5)

Like I stated above, I just went to a local dealer and they printed it off for me, for free. My car is originally from NC, and it went from there to here in MD, and the build sheet they printed for me was dead on accurate. The canadian cars may have been better documented, but at least some of the american cars were just as well documented. Stop by a pontiac dealer and see if they'll print it.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Better hurry, before they all shut their doors......Or become Kia dealers!

Mudskunk

so i went and searched my old box of crap and yeah it was a 1987 i guess i got a better deal on it than i had thought at the time. bought it for less than what dealers in the next city over were selling the base models for.

JT

iTrader: (1)

You have a 1991 and the original poster has a 1987 and that is a big difference in this case.

There was a time when owners could get that information from the GM dealerships for ~ 1989 and newer GMs. I did the same for my 1992 TA. But I'm not sure if that is still valid as some said they were told the older cars were being deleted from their system.

The original poster can attempt this, but 99% certain it will come up with just a valid VIN and no RPO codes as it's a 1987 and even my 1988s weren't in the GM system when I went this avenue a few years ago. I was told only some of 1989, and new GMs, were in the system. But if the car is Canadian, then it's a different story.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

I tried that with my 87 GTA. Even gave them my VIN. No luck...It "didn't exist", despite sitting in the parking lot....

TPImoneypit

iTrader: (5)

Huh, I wasn't aware of that. Well I'm glad mine was still in the system in that case. Either way, it can't hurt to try, free is alot cheaper than $50.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Maybe Pontiac was wrong? I've got 4 printed documents from Pontiac for 1991 showing the base 16" tire as a 215/60R16. But I guess you're sure they didn't do that? Read for yourself...

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r...irefolio10.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r...1pontiac16.jpg


Yeah, the difference is you're saying my information is incorrect and you have no information to back up your statement. I never said that I was providing irrefutable information, only that it's general information.

I never stated it was fact. Go back and read what I wrote again.

When did we start talking about GTAs?

Rolling Thunder

To answer the original question, I dont believe its a ws6. Reason being again if im not mistaken 4 wheel disks were part of the ws6 package. The ws7 package was basically the ws6 package with drum brakes in the rear instead of disks. So i think best case scenario you have a ws7.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

This is only applicable in the earlier years, like 82-84. After that WS6 was its own option, seperate from the disk brakes.

Guest

Looking through the brochures, it appears starting in 88 the 16" wheels were available without the WS6 package. Beyond that you'd need an order form to verify this for certain but thats what the brochures indicate.

Anyway since the OP has an 87, if those are the original wheels it has the WS6.

85 was the last year the WS6 came with the discs, ~86 up it was optional to a degree... the engine was also a factor on the rear discs and the suspension.

Bill Speed

I assumed if the stabilizer bars or other components on the suspension were beefed up, it's WS-6 for sure. Those are two tone Diamond spoke wheels like mine? I refer to those as the GTA-rims

okfoz

madmax got it right...
From 1985 - 1987 only the WS6 cars got the 16" Wheels.
In 1988 thru 1992, the WS6 cars still got the 16" wheels. In 1988 the Trans Am was also available with the PW7 wheels without WS6... I want to think that ALL Trans AM's got the 16" wheels until 1992 matter of factly. I want to think that only the Base firebird got the 15" wheels from 1988 - 1992.

There is an easy way to tell if your car did get WS6 without the RPO, check the drivers door jamb. on the door (if it is still the original door) you will find a sticker with tire sizes. On it if you have 245-50R16 then you will have WS6, Interestingly this is actually more tell-tale important than the center caps that even have WS6, as in 1992 there were many Trans Am's that did not have WS6, but had the WS6 center caps from the factory. The tire size standard still remained until 1992.

245-50R16 ONLY for WS6 cars... others got the narrower tires as Drew pointed out.

The PW7 wheels were available on the Trans Am starting in 1986, ONLY when the Trans Am was optioned with WS6. In 1986 the TA was available with the Gold wheels, in 1987 thru 1990 the TA was NOT available with gold PW7 rims. In 1991 the Trans Am could be optioned with the Gold PW7 Wheels, and the Formula could be optioned with the black PW7 wheels.

Any questions?

John

300hpse

iTrader: (2)

Are there any other ways to identify a ws6? The only other thing I can think of that hasn't been mentioned is the steering box. Didn't ws6 cars get a quicker steering box? If so, is it either possible to identify a ws6 by a part number on the box (Ive never looked) or possibly even just turns lock to lock?

There's different springs/shocks with ws6 I thought as well but I wouldn't imagine there is any discernible physical difference in any of the suspension parts outside of the sway bar size.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I love how 25 replies later, what I said is proven to be basically correct.

I've heard this, and I'm pretty sure I've verified it before for myself, but I think it's important to point out that not all 1986 WS6 Trans Ams had the PW7 wheels. The one I sold a couple years ago had the N96 16x8s from the factory, verified by the SPID.

The problem with identifying a WS6 is the option changed from year to year to include various equipment. Those components were also sometimes included with other packages. Beyond the RPO codes or other paperwork there is no way to be sure that the equipment came on the car.

As far as I know, the steering box in the early WS6 cars was the same as the base models. It didn't really change until the advent of the 16" wheels. Even then the boxes were marked with inked broadcast codes and faint stampings that usually can't be read clearly without removing the box from the car. And again the steering box isn't WS6 specific.

The springs don't indicate anything. I surveyed at least 50 cars several years ago and determined that any car could come with any combination of coil springs. Codes that were found on some 1LE cars were the same as some early Z28s and Trans Ams. Same goes for the shocks/struts. I don't believe they've been cataloged and they probably aren't going to be original on anything except the museum quality cars. I wouldn't trust sway bars alone either...

300hpse

iTrader: (2)

Ya, its kind of all I have to go by though. Doors and seats have been replaced (so no hope of a build sheet) and no rpo sheet.

Im assuming Im a ws6 based purely off of sway bars and the performance suspension badge. It would be nice to have another "well this could mean it is" type of item on the car.

Has anybody done any lock to lock count on a ws6 or non ws6 car (post 16" rims)? If a couple people can give some counts, I can get mine as well and it may prove semi useful information.

Im still not convinced I want to hand $50 over to phs when Ive read about some people getting some very limited packets from them with almost no info.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I got the PHS packet for my 91 Formula. I received a highly redacted invoice, a huge inch thick bundle of largely useless technical specifications photocopied from a book, a couple glossy 8.5x11" photos, and a couple photocopies of "Pontiac News" from 1990 discussing the new for 1991 options and models. It wasn't worth $50. It might have been more valuable to me if I hadn't already bought a press kit on ebay with the entire set of glossy 8.5x11 photos, and the same "Pontiac News" articles. Unless you're losing sleep over knowing if your car is really a WS6, I wouldn't order the pack just for that.

If that much of the car isn't original anymore, and no one can verify if the car is/isn't a WS6, does it really matter? I can count lock to lock on my Formula for you if you think it'll help.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I cheated a bit... I went out and counted the turns in the car, and then looked up the actual spec... 2.26 turns, lock-lock. It's not that precise when you're actually turning the wheel in the car. The base box is 2.7 turns, lock to lock. That doesn't leave much room for error. But that probably won't help since at least in 91 the F41 (base Trans Am suspesion) included the exact same steering box as WS6. I'd assume that the box is triggered by the wheels, and as we've already discussed, by 1990 all Trans Ams had 16" wheels.

TPImoneypit

iTrader: (5)

This is true, however, GM has a bad habit of re-using RPO's throughout the years for different applications. For example, GM has an engine out right now called the L98, and it's far from the same motor we find in our cars. It's possible that GM used a different spring but only had so many possible RPO combos to use that they had to reuse the RPO's, and that dealerships would have been able to discern the proper part based on the year, make and model of the vehicle (when they still kept track, that is).

Bill Speed

As I mentioned since I joined the fine forums/site, My car is a theft recovery, I never took the time to invest in a Pontiac Historical Society document pack, getting the Window sticker and number sheets I believe, that provides. I read as GM was dismantling Pontiac Motors, that the Pontiac Historical Services will be run privately, so it will keep operating to the best of it's ability, providing as much information on a per/car basis as they can I suspect.

Unlike any other car division, that's what's special about Ponchos, I'd say!

My wheels are certainly 16 inch, but all that remains on the car is the ASC modification badge for the convertible mod.

I would bet for, rather then against, that my car has the WS-6, as a convertible it needs to be made more rigid anyway, from the outset.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Being a convertible doesn't have anything to do with WS6. Based on your profile, if your car is a 1989 Formula it's WS6. All Formulas and correct me if I'm wrong, GTAs, came with WS6 standard.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

You are correct. GTA = WS6 as a standard RPO. Kind of a "sub-catagory" of Y84.

300hpse

iTrader: (2)

Cool. I'll check mine and see what I get in a little bit.

I guess if I know it has the largest sway bars and a quick steering box, Im happy about that stuff. I just like to know as much stuff about a car I own as possible so that's kind of why Im so intent on knowing. Being that its a 1990 makes me want to know even more, given a 5 speed tpi t/a would have been pretty limited that year.

It's just fun to know how uncommon the car actually is even though it doesnt really affect it's value you to me or what Ill do with it. Ultimately, Im happy with my $500 purchase, ws6 or not.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

If you don't have any documentation to back up what the car was originally, I'd look for indicators the car had WS6 and make an educated determination. To be honest there isn't that much difference on paper. If the car has the 36mm bar, a Performance Suspension badge on the dash, I'd give it the benefit of the doubt. In 1990 the WS6 package might have included other options. Your best bet would be to find a 1990 Firebird sales brochure and see what was included. But even then, the sales brochures don't make a big deal about WS6. Sometimes they don't even refer to it as WS6.

I'm sure that's possible but the data doesn't really support that conclusion. The conclusion I come to based on the data I collected, is that GM chose springs based more on engine and equipment then suspension levels. FE2/WS6/1LE/F41 all had overlapping codes, even in the same years. About the only time you see a clear break in the springs used is from L4 to V6 to V8. For example, a few years back I had a WS6 86 Trans Am LB9/auto, a non-WS6 86 Trans Am LB9/auto, and a 86 Firebird LG4/auto, all four had the same springs, verified by the tags on the springs themselves.

Bill Speed

My 89 ASC convertible was bought for $8600 back in 1997 or so, and it's got rust on every corner, Water in the interior. I'm just not all that handy doing car repairs myself. On top of that, I had two good car jacks and both were stolen, along with just about every bike I owned here. Then, last winter, I lost my keyring in the snow, I've been beset with problems like these, one can never get ahead, always two steps behind!
Anyway, I was thinking the PHS should reproduce the codes and papers if they can, based off a proper VIN, though mine's re-issued, it seems correct anyway

JT

iTrader: (1)

Some good information and debating here when the best option, and final answer, of looking for the WS6 RPO code on the SPID sheet is not possible.

I wanted to say this from the start, but given I've seen so many gold PW7 rims on 85+ Trans AMs (yes, I do know those gold rims were later made available to the 1991-1992 Trans AM), and also had looked at a 85 Trans Am that had PW7 rims on it (rims swapped as it original had N90 and no WS6 RPO on the SPID), it had appeared to me that swapping rims was so commonly done that it could be an easily false positive.

Bill, the convertible and WS6 do not go hand-in-hand, as Drew pointed out. There are 1991/1992 Trans Ams Convertibles, for example, without WS6 and I can state that as a fact. If the convertible happens to be a Formula or GTA convertible, it would be a WS6 as the Formula and GTA came standard with WS6, as Drew stated.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

So is it PW7 rims or all 16" rims... John said above 16", but now you say SPID confirmed N96 and no WS6... unless I am remembering wrong and N96 isn't a 16" rim...

.... but in 91/92 you could not get a GTA or Formula convertible, so that combo couldn't exist at least in 91/92. That doesn't exclude the Trans Ams from getting WS6 and a Vert, though.