This is concerning the thread asking if there were ever any 350 manual third gens. The answer is believe it or not yes. SLP did a bunch of random packages with the 3rd gen trans am, and although only one was produced they mated a 92 T/A with an L98 and 6 speed transmission. Now I have no idea where this one is or if it still even exists but I just wanted to correct the record.

 

Sooo you're telling us about the firehawks like they are an unknown car and you also think they only put a 6-speed behind a single one?

hey what do you know I happen to have personally taken a pic of the only 1 known to exist and I know right where it's at and whose it is.

 

its not that im saying there an unknown car on anouther thread someone put that there were no third gens with a 350 mated to a manual but the thread was closed to replys so i wanted to set the record strait and yes there may be more but in my findings there was only one known to have been made

 

I'd still argue that the correct answer remains no.

SLP is not GM, and a 6speed was not an option on any 3rd gen Fbody. I'm sure there's a hundred cars that were ordered from GM or though dealers, modified in any number of ways by any number of shops, and resold as new (since they had no miles) - but were not by that time GM cars.

The fact remains, the General never offered a factory 350 manual car.

Technicalities I know We can agree to disagree, right?

 

Without the TPI its about as much of a L98 as the TTA's V6's are.

 

The Firehawks have a really ugly center console.

 

LOL! I agree

 

idk, i kinda like it

 

I agree with you. GM never created a 350/6spd production car or public sale.

The Firehawks are "SLP Firehawks" not Pontiac Firehawks. Yes, based on a Pontiac car, but rebuilt by SLP then sold to the public.

 

The key to the discussion would be the Pontiac order sheets. For the regular Firebirds, T/A's, GTA's, if you checked the box for the 350 engine, then you got the automatic - no if's, and's or but's. The 305 gave you the choice of manual or automatic. End of discussion.

Keep also in mind that the factory manual was a five-speed, not a six-speed.

How this all worked for the Firehawk, I can freely admit, I'm not familiar with, but for the others, the above would apply to the best of my knowledge.

 

I completely agree, I could have bought a bunch of L98 f-bodys and put 5 speeds in them, but I wouldn't have called them an official GM L98 manual F-body.

 

 

s0o0o0o , im guessing the stick tranny couldnt handle the L98 so thats why they used the 700R4 instead ?

 

GM didnt want to spend the money to purchase T-5's from Borg Warner that had a decent case that didnt flex and warp when even a slight breeze hit it.

 

Warranty issues + they wanted to sell you a Corvette

 

lol
did the alluminum heads on vettes even make a difference ? , beside the slight weight reduction.

 

my 93 vette had the lt350 and 6speed, rated at like 350bhp fun car on the freeway but not off the launch. and the 6speed had problems just after 50k, second gear would grind and 3 was a pain sometimes

 

Actually, you went to the Pontiac Dealer and ordered your Formula Firebird with the Firehawk option.
SLP didn't sell them direct to the public, only through Pontiac Dealers.

 

Yes but once again, GM didn't produced them, nowadays u can see gm dealerships selling used ford or toyotas vehicles, that doesnt'mean gm produced them just because they sell them.

 

Exactly, you ordered at the GM Dealership, but a Dealership is not GM. They are an authorized reseller. And SLP partnered with GM, allowing for SLP to buy formula's and convert them to firehawks. So when you ordered yours at the dealership, a complete RUNNING formula was shipped to SLP, converted, then delivered to you.

GM didn't give them non-running cars, the cars were converted to firehawks after they were produced.

 

It was 300hp, not 350, and with the wrong gears the LT1s were low rpm turds. Your 6 speed had problems because the C4 had terrible clutch hydraulics. They would leak, and when they did, your synchros would be forced to do all the work and it would wear them out. Bad clutch hydraulics are about the only way to kill a ZF6. They're a very robust transmission.

 

it was a fun high way car. all i did was a cold air intake a borla exhaust. it was straight piped form headders back to borlas so it was loud.
i actally got it to take it apart and put the motor and trans in my camaro, but change my mind after driving the car.

 

I love these 350/manual threads. You could be having the worst day in the world, and then someone posts up this type of thread. It brings a smile to my face everytime. We need a comic relief board.

 

scroll down to the 23rd or so clip. everything you wanted to know about the FIREHAWK.

http://slptv.slponline.com/featured_...php?reset=true

all of the "HAWKS" were FORMULAS except 1 T/A that was made into a HAWK and that T/A is a vert also. #s 18 & 23 were cancelled during production.

 

I kind of think it's ugly but then again it looks alright too. I'm in between on that one.

 

I know right? We do need a comic relief board on this site so we can post, read and respond to all of the ridiculous claims about what was on 3rd Gen's and what wasn't on them....

 

yes, but they all left the factory as a regular formula, or a trans am. SLP added the manual trans and engine modifications. Not a factory option, it was a dealer option.

 

For those wanting more of a laugh:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...ml#post4649624

 

It is my understanding that the center console pictured above is unique to that specific car because the Corvette's ZF-6 transmission had issues with shifter placement on the stock console so that is the solution they ended up with.

 

I like the Firehawk console better than the factory one. It really does look better in person
Also the ZF will fit with the stock console and 5speed cover plate

 

With that logic, the convertibles were not original equipment either... Remember that ALL "Factory" F-body convertibles from 1987-2002 were ASC converted. (Granted the 87-92 were done AT ASC, and 93-02 were done at the factory, nonetheless, they were all "Converted".

Converted or not, they were Authorized by GM...

John.

 

the HAWK vert T/A was actually already on a lot when the buyer bought it and had it sent to have the HAWK treatment. the buyer of this car wasnt just any buyer. he told Ed "if ya made one of those things a vert id buy it". after they realized who he was they really stepped up to do the conversion.

the vert HAWK was the most expensive one built at $60,000.

 

Well I think this thread is kind of pointless since it is more about what each of us thinks is considered factory or non factory and also it only deals with 1 car that we know of so I don't think it really matters. Personally I don't think there is really a wrong answer here as it just depends on how you interpret it.

But personally I don't think the convertible argument is legitimate and the only reason I say this is GM did have a specific digit in the VIN number just for a convertible, now I know there was no digit in the VIN for the transmission but there also was no special digit for the engine that SLP provided so I think that says the convertible is "more" of a factory option than the firehawk.

Now again I see both sides of the argument here but that is just my take on it. And again my logic could seem completely stupid but I guess that's how I look at it. This seems more like an argument you would have in a courtroom than on an automotive message board but it's cool.

 

Matter of factly, even if GM did not specifically create a new VIN for the firehawk, they indeed created an RPO code B4U which denoted or designated the conversion, which is very much as an important piece of information.

For all intents and purposes, my comment was to show that GM did not do all of the manufacturing of our cars, there were outside sources that actually changed them, even the TTA was outsourced to PAS. Granted the 3rd digit of the VIN was changed from a 2 to a 5 and the 8th digit was changed to a 7. Interestingly the car was no longer had the typical GM/Pontiac VIN, as all other Pontiacs were ?G2 in 1989. The new designation is considered "Pontiac Special" or something along those lines. Interestingly GM did not change the VIN, PAS changed the VIN, as the test cars were converted over to a new VIN to denote the conversion.

So the fact is GM authorized the planned 250 Firehawks to be made with a 350 and a 6 speed transmission... The only cars that did not get the B4U RPO was #1 (which was a press car) and # 20 & up or something along those lines... Unfortunately only 25 Firehawks were made, and all of them had a manual transmission.

I was pointing out that the logic was flawed is all...

 

Well first off thank you for the information it was interesting and I did not realize all of that. Also I wasn't trying to pick on you or anything like that it was just the best example I saw. I think if you looked at what was actually outsourced and what was actually GM we would all be shocked to some degree as very few of the components on our cars are actually directly from GM (mainly the body parts excluding the convertible pieces from what I see)

I totally agree the logic being flawed here on every argument here including my own or at least I see holes in all of them, and that is why I say this thread is pointless since there will be as many different opinions and reasons for them as there will be replys to this thread. I have to say I have gone back and forth with my opinion with every post I have read and the thing is it just depends on what you consider to be factory (are you talking GM's factory or somebody else's factory? Are you comparing options with other options? the possibilities are endless) Anyway I think it's kind of a cool argument but will be never ending since at least the way I see it there is no correct answer. To me it's like asking what is the best color on a firebird? I hope you see what I'm saying here there will be 10 different answers for 10 different posters and they will all have a reason why.

 

I can appreciate that, I was not offended or feel picked on, I just needed to explain...

John

 

Factory or not is the same debate that the vert owners are in. While there was never a thirdgen convertible ever made by Chevy/Pontiac, it was an option offered by them, advertised by them, sold at dealers for them, and also considered as an "original" item by them and by owners. This was due to the fact, as mentioned above, that they didn't build everything. But they did see the feature as attractive option for customers, so to build the feature, a company called ASC was under official contract to make the changes. Very similar to SLP, etc.

Thus, most consider the ASC verts built for Chevy/Pontiac as original and those built privately for owners as aftermarket, even though ironically the can be identical.

 

I think as a whole, either the vert or the manual/debate can be settled simply by the manner in which we, the majority of third gen community consider them. You have to stop thinking of 'em in terms of black and white, because there's almost never a case that's so 100% crystal clear.

Every body knows you could walk into a dealer and buy a vert new. In fact most people outside of TGO probably don't realize they weren't actually made by GM. As far as I'm concerned, they're sitting on the curb at the dealer, they're a GM factory option. Most of us agree.

Then you take the Firehawk. Again, forget the technicalities. There were less than 30 made. Even some TGO members aren't familiar with them, and even fewer have actually seen one. They weren't in the brochure, and I doubt any dealer purchased one of them without an order already having been placed by the buyer. (not sure). The cost was more than double the fully loaded "regular" TA/Formy. For all intents and purposes, GM never made a Manual/350 Thirdgen. When some toothless hillbilly says his uncle's bother's friend has one and he's gona sell it to me "cheap", he ain't talkin' about a Firehawk! But of course, per the letter, technically you could theoretically walk into a dealer back in 91/92, and they could've technically ordered a few of 'em and had 'em on the floor for public sale. -But, as for our community, no, they never made a 350/manual thirdgen.

 

The ASC Firebird convertibles were almost exclusively made for Dealerships, I think with the exception of two, one was actually for PAS (one of the three TTAs) The other is simply misc. These cars were on the lot new, never owned as new without being a Convertible... I am not sure if ASC would convert a previously owned car, there is no evidence of it. I think there has been stories of people calling ASC to have it done, but there has never been a car that has surfaced where it had been done. The cars were ordered by Dealerships, drop shipped to ASC, then ASC would ship the car to the dealer.

The Firehawk had a special brochure, I have one, I was told by the owner of #13 that there was a dealer that ordered a few without pre-order, and they literally sat on the lot (probably inside). I agree with you, for the majority of answers.. " NO there was never a 3rd gen that had the 350 and a 5 speed" would be adequate, I agree with you.

 

I'm just going to throw this out there... what about my body being made by fisher?

 

In a nutshell, Fisher is just one of the many 'brands' that make up GM. Kind of like Delco... All thirdgens have 'Body by Fisher' on the door sills, along with various other GM vehicles of the same time period.

 

Like drew said. At one time GM owned just about everything that went into the cars, Fisher made many of the bodies, they would ship the parts to a assy plant, Harrison made the AC units (which was owned by GM), Guide Lamp (made headlights and bulbs), Reme (made steering boxes & such), Hydromatic made Transmissions, Saginaw Steering Gear made steering parts, and Saginaw made axles, Eventually many of these smaller companies were spun off and Delco was created as a completely different company. As a side note GM actually made trains too (Electromotive If memory serves). The only thing that I do not think GM ever owned was a Glass manufacturer. The Norwood cars got PPG and the Van Nuys cars got LOF (ready for this) Libby-Owens-Ford.

Eventually many components were contracted out, as strange as it sounds there are instances where Delco would get a bid for a part, they would outsource the part, only to have that company contract with Delco to make the part, so they could sell it back to Delco. Yes Delco would make a part, sell it, buy it back and then sell it to GM... well DUH, no wonder they went bankrup.

 

Ah I never understood that fisher body door trim that's on my 85, my uncle's 79 and my friend's 76

 

yes there were 350 manual third gens 87 was the first year of 350 third gen camaros and a few of them had 5 speeds =O omg how amazing lol

 

No, no 87 350 came with a 5 speed. No No No.

No 350 ever came with a 5 speed from GM. Period. Firehawks (from GM or not) got a 6-speed.

 

i was at a small country coner store about 4 weeks ago to get a soda, this fella asked "is that your bird outside" and i says yes and he ask 350 or 305 and i said 305 his response was ahhhww, "a friend of mine bought one that was a 350 5 speed".

i promptly said they didnt make such a critter and he swore up and down they did. i told him i'd like to see the build sheet or the RPO sticker. i le him be an idiot and went on my way.

goes along with the fella that had a camaro with WS-6.

 

One thing I find helpful is to actually let them expose the fraud themselves... you say "Show me" and go from there... So many have even stated that they had a 350 in 1985... Its often anti-constructive to simply argue.

At the T/A nationals I got into this conversation with some people that were simply uninformed. One fella told me that back in 1991 he wanted a L98 with T-tops, the dealer told him that the cars could not take the stress so they dropped it. I had to point out that the car over there was a 1992 Formula 350 with T-tops, he was amazed to find out that it had to do with fuel economy.

Interestingly The idea that stress was not too far off base, as the structural stress was the reason why the M5 was not put behind the L98, as the M5 was not able to handle the extra 10% of the L98.. 20 years and some misinformation its easy to see why or how things get mistaken.

John

 

I never bother arguing with people. Doesn't change the facts.

Outside of the 3 Firehawks or however few it was, there were no 350 manual thirdgens. If some hilljack tells me his brother-in-law's sister's cousin's best friend's boss' son's wife's grandfather's hired farm hand's masseur's boyfriend's roommate's elementary school bud told him he knew a guy that went to school with somebody that dated a guy that heard from sombody at the track that he saw a pic of one in a magazine, I just nod approvingly and move on. "Nothing to see here." Just another idiot. Life is too short to educate them all.

Such has become the fate of these cars. Too many idiots, not enough ... Darwin award opportunities.

In addition to the warranty cost exposure, I suspect that the expense of emissions certification was a factor in their non-existence; although I wasn't in the right place at the time to be positive about that.

 

Sofa,
I think it would have been rather easy to get the emissions passage for the manual with a 350. A Manual tends to get better Fuel mileage especially when you coast, your actually coasting, An automatic trans of this era still has some parasitic drag on it even when coasting so getting better economy is rather easy with a manual.

I think it really goes back to people that have actually done the transplant, either installing a 350, or installing a manual in a 350 car. The end result is the M5 is more fragile than the 700R4 and later 4L60 automatic trans all day long... I know that there are some people that have had really good luck with the transplant, without issue, however going beyond a stock engine, they really do not do well. Apparently they break the cases

That's what I hear, not really scientific, but it is in check with other things that I have seen and heard...

John

 

The issue with emissions testing and manual transmissions in general, is what happens when you shift. You get a big puff of SUPER rich mixture when the engine suddenly descends from a power situation to the throttles slammed shut with the engine still at high speed, SEVERAL times per each acceleration event. Even alot of the 305 combos came with a "dashpot" type of solenoid to alleviate that.

But you're right, other than that, the fuel economy and emissions generally tend to be lower with manuals than autos.

However, emissions certifaction at that time was EXPENSIVE, and created a significant entry barrier for any combos that wouldn't have been sold in LARGE numbers, large enough for the profit to recoup that fixed cost. I suspect that, with the extreme warranty expense risk due to the T-5's weakness in the first place, GM probably didn't want to spend further extra money to create a money-loser and problem-causer. Altogether would nothave been a good business move. But as I said I wasn't there so I don't know that for sure either, it's all conjecture.