I keep reading about the "Turbo Snowflake" wheels for the 91-92 Formula, which sound like they are different than the ones from 87-90. Anyone got pics of either so I can see for myself? I can't seem to find any pics.

 

The same basic wheel design was used from 1987 to 1992 with the only difference being the '87 had a domed center while the '88 on wheels were more dished (called the deep dish high tech turbo wheel). In '92 the GTA crosslace wheel (snowflake maybe?) was available when ordering a Formula 350 with T-tops and had the black center. Those were the only wheels that came on a Formula from the factory and pics should be easily available.

 

Where did you read about 'Turbo Snowflake' wheels?

And just a little correction, you have the 350/t-top/crosslace rim order slightly backwards. You could order a Formula with crosslace rims without the 350 and t-tops, however you could not order a 350 w/ t-tops without the crosslace rims. This was a weight issue.

 

I reread the information I saw:

"Once again, T-Tops were available on Formula with a 350 in late 1991. NOTE: 91 & 92 were the ONLY years that the Formula was available with a different wheel than the "turbo" snowflake style wheel. The Black Trans Am wheels were also available as an option according to the Pontiac Literature, but appears to be standard when ordering a 350/T-top car."


The way I read it made me think the turbo snowflake wheel was a different wheel than the previous years Formula wheel.

 

The standard Formula wheels were the same. The other wheels it is talking about are the PW7 lightweight crosslace rims, commonly referred to as "GTA" rims, even though they came on Trans Am and Formys, too.

 

Yeah, snowflakes were the optional 15x7 aluminum wheels on 1977-81 cars. I have seen a similar pattern on later base model third gen firebirds with the 15 inch wheels, but really 'snowflakes' as a term pertains to 2nd gens. They also came in an 8 inch diameter with a polished lip on WS6 cars. Turbo wheels were found on 1979 10th Anniversaries and 1980-81 Turbo cars.

 

The tech data, and most other similar articles and books, assume the reader has a little understanding of the subject matter, or the ability to find examples of what's being described. That's always been a problem, because it leaves it open to interpretation. In this case "snowflake" is just a way of describing the 20 slot wheels. It doesn't have anything to do with 2nd gens. 20-slot Firebird wheels are a sort of modern artistic interpretation of a snowflake, just like you'd cut out of paper in a 2nd grade art class.

What the article is actually saying is that in 91-92 you could get the GTA style crosslace wheels on a Formula. It was a specific package L98 + CC1 = PW7 wheels. Every other Formula came with either the convex 20 slot wheel, or the concave 20 slot wheel.

1987 Formula


1988-92 Formula


1991.5-92 Formula with L98, and CC1... Note also that the pic shows a light colored wheel, on the Formula the crosslace wheels were only offered with black centers.

 

I don't want to get too far off topic here, but I do want to point out that 2nd gen "snowflakes" were offered on thirdgens... 1982-84 under RPO N90 if you trust the diagram.






And also that the Formula 20 slot wheel is refered to as a "Turbo" wheel by GM. FWIW.

 

Drew, just to clarify... are you saying the only way to get PW7 wheels on a Formula was the 350 t-tops combo?

I ran it through compnines little how rare is it page for 1991 and it returned 11 cars with W66, LB9 and PW7, plus 11 W66, L98, PW7 w/o CC1 (55 total-44 w/ CC1)

As always, grain of salt with Compnine.

 

Compnine's software tends to get a bit silly searching certain combinations. You can punch in RPO codes that are mutually exclusive and it'll usually tell you a couple exist.
That's not to say that some odd ball cars couldn't have been built for export, but I've never seen any reliable documentation to suggest the PW7 wheels could be had on a Formula except when the car was ordered with t-tops, and the 350.

So yes, the only way to get PW7 wheels on a Formula was to order the L98 and CC1 t-tops.

Compnine is good for getting a list of RPO codes from the VIN, and finding the invoice date, and of course parts illustrations (sometimes with part numbers). Everything else is suspect.

 

I'm having a hard time understanding why they were necessary on a t-top/350 car. The 350 car wasn't any heavier than a 305 car, so why the apparent need to shed weight with the wheels?

 

The "theory" in action there, is that the 350 consumed more gas, produced more emissions, and therefore needed to lose weight so that the added weight of the ttops wouldn't push it over the limit.

So...
350 Already greater emissions.
+ ttops (weight)
- wheels (weight)
= comparable emissions to a 305.

 

...and to think...

First, some gov't employee came up with the system, and made a LOT of money, and then GM had to pay their employees to figure out how to get around the gov't tape...

I wound up picking up the 91 Formula this past weekend. Its an L98 hardtop car. The RPO sheet was missing, but Compnine found the RPOs. After cross-referencing Compnine's RPO list with what is physically on the car, I am willing to believe that at least the RPO list Compnine generated from the VIN is correct.

...it has the std. Formula "turbo" wheels...

All in all, its not a bad car, and coming from Ohio is surprisingly, RUST FREE. It definitely needs paint and some engine work, but was quite nice to see otherwise complete in and out. I'll post some pics later on.

Definitely feels wierd to say I own a Pontiac. I've had so many Chevys over the years, that Pontiac almost doesn't seem like English to me. Its wierd seeing it on the back of Formula - I guess in my head, 3rdgens are CHEVROLET... hehe

 

,
I would agree with you, however compnine has worked out some of the previous bugs, IE where they showed several 1990 L98 cars with T-tops, those are gone.

I would like to point out that:
1) it was mandatory to have the PW7 wheels with the L98/CC1/W66 cars
2) The PW7 was an option on the Formula according to the brochures, dealer books etc, it was not restrained to just the L98. I will agree that I do not think I have seen many formulas without the L98/CC1 but with the PW7 wheels. However I do recall a MM5/LB9/PW7 car recently.

According to the site there were in 1991
44 - L98,PW7,CC1 Formulas
11 - L98,PW7 (NON CC1) Formulas
15 - L03,PW7 Formulas
3 - LB9,PW7,MM5,CC1 FORMULAS
1 - LB9,MM5,PW7 (NON CC1) FORMULAS
7 - LB9,MX0,PW7,CC1 FORMULAS
0 - LB9,MX0,PW7,( NON CC1) FORMULAS

I checked the LH0 to make sure there was not some err in the database... On a side note I just learned that all of the 91-92 Firehawks (with B4U) had the PW7 wheels on the RPO tag... And none of those in 1991 had T-tops, there was one in 1992 with T-tops however.

According to the site there were in 1992
204 - L98,PW7,CC1 Formulas
64 - L98,PW7 (NON CC1) Formulas
44 - L03,PW7 Formulas
31 - LB9,PW7,MM5,CC1 FORMULAS
15 - LB9,MM5,PW7 (NON CC1) FORMULAS
24 - LB9,MX0,PW7,CC1 FORMULAS
8 - LB9,MX0,PW7,( NON CC1) FORMULAS

Ultimately the overall majority were the L98 cars, with more than 50% of the PW7 Formulas had the L98 and the CC1...

John

 

Regardless, I personally don't trust Compnine's database as proof a combination actually exists. I have several 1991 Firebird and Pontiac brochures here, and none show the PW7 wheels as an option on the Formula. I've seen the document explaining that the wheels and t-tops would be offered on the Formula with the 350, but I didn't see anything in that document that would lead me to believe the wheels could be had without that specific combination.

I'll believe it when I see more reliable documentation... Something like an actual SPID that shows W66 and PW7 without CC1, and L98. That would be proof.

 

Does this help?
It specifies that:
1) The PW7 wheels on the Formula were a no cost option.
2) The only way to get the L98/CC1 combo was to order with the PW7.
3) Orders may be taken immediately.

 

Depending on how you read that, it either says the wheels were available, or it says that the wheels were available WITH CC1/B2L.

The way I've always read that document is "hey, we've got these wheels, if you want them order CC1 and B2L".

What I'd like to see is a SPID showing W66 and PW7 without CC1 and B2L/L98.

 

Drew,
you Wanted proof that Formula's exist with the W66, and PW7 Wheels WITHOUT the L98/CC1 combo... Here is an example:

http://www.compnine.com/vid.php?vin=1G2FS2385NL216597

I know that you really do not like compnine and think its hooey and inaccurate, however, I have attached the SPID sheet from the car in the link above..

Are you Still a doubter?

BTW, there is something more special to this car than just the PW7 wheels

John

 

It's a Firehawk, does the rule really apply? It'd be like saying that an RS could be had with TPI or 1LE brakes because the B4C could.

Find a normal, run of the mill Formula (non-export), with diamond spoke wheels and documentation and I'd probably buy into it. But no I wouldn't consider that conclusive proof since the Firehawk by it's very nature breaks the rules of what could and couldn't be obtained.

 

I factory ordered a 1992 Formula LB9/MM5 and it came with black Diamond Spoke PW7 wheels. And they were installed by the factory, not the dealer because I picked it up the day after it showed up on the truck.

 

Got an RPO sheet to verify?

 

Or even the VIN so it can be looked up in Compnine?

 

Sorry, car is long gone.

Verification is: That's the way it was. I suppose I could scan and post a picture of my skinny self standing beside it.

 

Drew,
At this point I really feel that even if I found you a listing on compnine.com ultimately you could disregard that site as possibly being inaccurate, or if I found a RPO sheet that showed the combo that showed it as such and you could claim that it was manipulated.

What the crap, you wanted proof, I got it for you, sure its a Firehawk... But you did not specify that it could not be a Firehawk. Matter of factly, all of the Firehawks with the B4U had the PW7 Wheels.. So the truth be told YES you could get the PW7 wheels w/o the L98/CC1 combo, which I proved.

There was a PW7 LB9/M5 car on ebay a while back, unfortunately I don't have the proof at this point as I did not think it was overly important at the time, but i remember looking it up. Now that Compnine.com has decided to limit the number of searches per day, it makes life a little more difficult... I suspect some IDIOT has decided to decode EVERY VIN for a certain model. Which has ruined it for the rest of us.

John

 

John,

Relax, it's just not that important. I don't trust Compnine, that's not a knock against you or anyone who does, I just don't feel the information is complete and accessible enough to really decode without a doubt, every mystery of these cars. So what if it says that X number of cars came with a lollipop in the glovebox and a "bitchin'" license plate frame, it doesn't tell you all the details about that car to know WHY it came with those features. It could be an export car, or a special circumstance, the information just isn't conclusive.

Obviously a Firehawk isn't your typical Formula. SLP had no intention of using the wheels they came equipped with. The cars came with equipment that the general public couldn't necessarily order. Who knows what else SLP was able to delete or modify on the order under their agreement with GM.

In the June 2003 High Performance Pontiac, there's an article on a 91 Formula 1LE. In the pics it's wearing PW7 diamond spoke wheels. In the article it states that the owner painted the factory supplied gold diamond spoke wheels to match the body color. On the same page there's a nice clear picture of the window sticker that lists the normal "Hi-Tech Turbo Deep Dish Aluminum wheels" and the VIN number. If you run that VIN through Compnine it shows PE0 wheels. The point being that people are wrong all the time.

I apologize if it bothers you that I hold evidence to a high standard, but if I didn't what would be the point? Without reliable evidence, any hearsay becomes fact. No one says you have to prove it was available. If you can prove it I'll admit I'm wrong, but I haven't seen that proof yet. It's trivial, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, and neither should you. If they're out there, just wait and post it when one pops up somewhere with documentation.

 

Well Said

In some ways, its been an evolution for me over the past 12 years. When I first started blogging, I was of the impression that T-tops and the 350 were Not available. Then I learn that yes indeed they were available. Now we have evolved into deciphering the wheels on the cars, and whether or not they could be had without the CC1/L98.

Finding one of the cars on the list should not be impossible, but challenging, especially when more than half of the reported PW7 wheels on Formulas were on the L98/CC1 (91-92). Considering how few of the cars with the combo I can only imagine that finding one in a pinch is not possible. I will keep looking, I have seen them before, and when I do find one, I will make sure to post it here.

Its insane honestly, and I agree with you, its really not important. Its almost like too much time on my hands. BUt I always feel like I have no time doing what I need to do, but I spend so much time doing this.

Honestly the thing that drives me most insane, is I know they exist, I have seen them, but proving it is challenging...

John

 

Ok boys, I enjoy solving mysteries too. I found the VIN # on the old loan document, so I ran it on Compnine:

W66/LB9/MM5/PW7

Not the smoking gun that an RPO sticker would be, but if I was on this jury, the evidence would be good enough to acquit.

 

Thank you!

On a side note, you are the first person I have ever seen on this site that came into a thread, made a statement like yours as an original car owner, and then backed it up with some very solid evidence (to me conclusive, Drew might not agree).

 

<mumble-cough>Export<mumble-cough>

Canadian cars regularly came different then US market cars... It proves it was possible in Canada but doesn't provide proof it was available in the US.

Again, not trying to be a dick about it...

 

Apparently the L98/CC1 combo was NA in Canada... As there was none to be found in my search.

Out of the 82 PW7/W66 Cars None went to Canada in 1991
Out of the 390 PW7/W66 cars, only 18 went to Canada in 1992

Actually in 1991 (according to the RPO decoder) no PW7/W66 cars with (U19) (KM instruments) were Exported in 1991, and only 18 total PW7/W66 cars were exported in 1992 with U19... All apparently going to Canada

So if we find a 1991, it would have been intended for the US, in theory.

Honestly Drew, you did type "What I'd like to see is a SPID showing W66 and PW7 without CC1 and B2L/L98." And we have now shown you two, granted both are non-typical, however we did them as the original comment asked... (Yes I type this as friendly gesture not to irritate)

Now if you asked to see an L03 with the W66/PW7, I think that may be a tall order to fill... I think there was less than 60 of them out there...

John

 

I asked for a SPID... So far there's one SPID and one RPO list from Compnine.

 

Since I gave both a Compnine reference and a SPID (which were identical), so technically there are TWO compnine's and ONE Spid

At this point I am 99.99% confident that Compnine is accurate as I have yet to find a SPID that did not line up (when they had the info). I know there was a discrepancy in the past, and with the help of myself and JT we contacted them and they corrected it.

John

 

...I wonder who's gonna win!

This is entertaining to say the least. I didn't know my original post was gonna spawn all of this...

I guess my big question with Compnine is: How/Where are they getting their information from? What database, or ARE they the database? Aside from the 1 of 1 argument, where else are they erroneous?

 

Compnine basically pulled the database that GM keeps on file with all the VIN numbers and their RPO codes. So if it's in the GM system, Compnine's search program will show it in the results.

But the GM system isn't always complete, or exclusive to US cars, and where the problem comes in is determining what is or isn't true based on numbers in the system. Since the base numbers are not always complete, and we don't really know if the cars entered into the system are domestic, export, etc then the base figures are wrong or at least questionable.

This becomes a problem when those figures are used mathematically to derive an unknown figure. Say for a fictional example we know there are 5,000 Camaros, only available in red or white, and we know that 2,000 of them are Red... So then we can take 5,000 - 2,000 and determine that there are 3,000 white Camaros. But since the 5,000 figure comes from a database that may or may not include cars that really exist or that were shipped to other countries which makes them exempt from typical US ordering "rules", that figure isn't all that accurate. Garbage in, garbage out.

To add doubt to the Compnine numbers, their software was hosed when it first got popular here. You could search RPO combinations, which previously no system really tracked. But you could search for option combinations that were mutually exclusive. For example, back to our fictional red and white Camaro exercise... Compnine would allow us to search how many Camaros were red, how many were white, and how many were both red AND white and it would come up with a number even though it's clear the combination couldn't possibly exist. Like I said, it's a fictional, overly simplified example. The couple combinations I ran through that Compnine said exist were things like engines that were discontinued years earlier, 350 5spds, or cars with two different engines... You can see the examples I found in about 2 minutes on their site in this thread... https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...ml#post4414568

Compnine is really good for the exploded diagrams (probably their most valuable information that no one seems to utilize), and for getting RPO's and an invoice date for a car missing it's SPID. But the rarity, and pretty much all the numbers are only as accurate as their database is complete, and to the best of my knowledge it's not US specific. It also doesn't give you ENOUGH information about the cars in the pool to know if the anomalies are Firehawks, or export cars, or otherwise should be excluded from the results. It's vastly inconclusive.

 

I also ordered a '92 formula 305, T5 every option with the PW7 wheels. It was a factory install.

 

If this old thread still matters, I currently have a JY 92 305 tpi 5sp that has its factory PW7 wheels.

 

6 years later I'm pretty sure no one is still invested in the issue.

 

"closure"