'88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
11-07-2010, 02:03 PM
#1
'88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
I know that the '87-'92 Hatchback GTAs could be ordered with or without leather seats. I've been searching various sites and can't find any information as to whether the notchback GTAs could come with cloth, vinyl, or only leather seats. It seems like all the ones I've seen for sale have the leather seats. Also, does anyone have the production numbers and colors for the leather seats from '87-'92?
11-07-2010, 02:19 PM
#2
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
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Car: 1988 Trans Am GTA
Engine: 350TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3:27
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
my car was a factory notchback and has leather seats, digi dash, and the 350.
11-08-2010, 10:45 AM
#3
Senior Member
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
My Black '88 Notchback GTA has the standard cloth seats. Leather seats were never standard fare on the GTA.
11-14-2010, 04:51 PM
#4
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
Here is my vehicle invoice and SPID. According to Jim Mattison at PHS, GM has indicated that the leather was included as a standard option on my particular AA8 Notchback GTA, and is listed on my vehicle invoice above the line of asterisks (where the standard options are listed). I have circled the number that indicates the standard interior trim on the invoice, it is *8228. Jim says the 822 shows it is leather and the 8 that follows the 822 leather interior indicates that it was for a vehicle produced in 1988. This is why the leather interior is not listed below the line of asterisks along with the other individually priced options that were ordered.
Frankie, since your car had cloth, leather was not standard at some point on the notchbacks. At some point, however, it became standard, maybe to enhance sales of the notchback option. Also Frankie, do you have any way of knowing how many red notchbacks came with a grey leather interior?
Frankie, since your car had cloth, leather was not standard at some point on the notchbacks. At some point, however, it became standard, maybe to enhance sales of the notchback option. Also Frankie, do you have any way of knowing how many red notchbacks came with a grey leather interior?
Last edited by yo soy el warg; 11-14-2010 at 08:06 PM.
11-14-2010, 05:04 PM
#5
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
I've owned 3 original Notchbacks and all had cloth. I've never heard of leather being standard. Aside from the fiberglass decklid and spoiler, as well as the integrated rear seats, the Notchback is the same as the GTA. There's also the special spare-tire package. If the GTA didn't have leather as standard, I'm hesitant to believe the Notchback was treated differently. Jim Mattison is definately knowledgeable. Was there, perhaps, a misunderstanding?
As far as production figures, that's currently not known unless you have a Canadian Notchback (1988 or 1989) as I have the VINs and RPOs for them and could break-down the figures. Unfortunately, however, the Canadian Notchback cars only make up a small fraction of the production (atleast for 1988, 1989 they made up the majority).
I can tell you that there are a lot of late 1988 and 1989 Canadian Notchbacks that have cloth seats. Of course this does not mean that leather was not standard and cloth was specifically ordered for those vehicles.
As far as production figures, that's currently not known unless you have a Canadian Notchback (1988 or 1989) as I have the VINs and RPOs for them and could break-down the figures. Unfortunately, however, the Canadian Notchback cars only make up a small fraction of the production (atleast for 1988, 1989 they made up the majority).
I can tell you that there are a lot of late 1988 and 1989 Canadian Notchbacks that have cloth seats. Of course this does not mean that leather was not standard and cloth was specifically ordered for those vehicles.
Here is my vehicle invoice and SPID. According to Jim Mattison at PHS, GM has indicated that the leather was included as a standard option on my particular AA8 Notchback GTA, and is listed on my vehicle invoice above the line of asterisks (where the standard options are listed). I have circled the number that indicates the standard interior trim on the invoice, it is *8228. Jim says the 822 shows it is leather and the 8 that follows the 822 leather interior indicates that it was for a vehicle produced in 1988. This is why the leather interior is not listed below the line of asterisks along with the other individually priced options that were ordered.
Frankie, since your car had cloth, leather was not standard at some point on the notchbacks. At some point, however, it became standard, maybe to enhance sales of the notchback option. Also Frankie, do you have any way of knowing how many red notchbacks came with a grey leather interior?
Frankie, since your car had cloth, leather was not standard at some point on the notchbacks. At some point, however, it became standard, maybe to enhance sales of the notchback option. Also Frankie, do you have any way of knowing how many red notchbacks came with a grey leather interior?
11-14-2010, 05:50 PM
#6
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
No, there was no misunderstanding. When I ordered the invoice Jim Mattison said that the leather was shown on my invoice, but I was confused because I didn't see it in the option list. I called him back and he told me that he had contacted GM directly and GM told him that the leather was indicated, as I described, on this particular invoice as being standard, above the line of asterisks.
If you have had notchbacks with cloth, and you have the vehicle invoices, I would like to see what your vehicle invoice lists in the same location.
If you have had notchbacks with cloth, and you have the vehicle invoices, I would like to see what your vehicle invoice lists in the same location.
11-14-2010, 05:51 PM
#7
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
If you really believe I have had some grand misunderstanding, please feel free to call Jim and ask him about my notchback. I'm sure he'll remember, it's very recent that I have talked to him about my car.
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11-14-2010, 06:42 PM
#8
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
I actually do believe there may be a misunderstanding, but no need to get offended. We're all here to learn and share information.
I think the window sticker is what's being referred to. It has a line of asterisks, above the options for the specific vehicle, which are standard equipment. It shows leather appointment and other standard features, but leather seats is not one of them.
Here's a window sticker for a factory GTA (with the Notchback option). It has a line of asterisks, above the options for that specific VIN, and shows leather appointment and other standard features.
What you posted is an invoice and it doesn't show leather on it. We both understand that. My confusion comes when you say Jim stated that leather was indicated on this particular invoice as being standard, above the line of asterisks. What you have is the invoice and leather isn't listed. I think it's the window sticker that is being discussed.
Here's a partial of my invoice. I'll look for the complete, but what's shown below is all the options listed on the invoice (which is why it's cropped):
The above Notchback of mine came after yours. You forgot to omit the VIN at the bottom of your invoice
Ours were within a few weeks of each other
I'm certainly not going to say that I'm not wrong or never wrong, so this could be one of those times. But it does appear to me to be a bit of misunderstanding. But I could be wrong.
I think the window sticker is what's being referred to. It has a line of asterisks, above the options for the specific vehicle, which are standard equipment. It shows leather appointment and other standard features, but leather seats is not one of them.
Here's a window sticker for a factory GTA (with the Notchback option). It has a line of asterisks, above the options for that specific VIN, and shows leather appointment and other standard features.
What you posted is an invoice and it doesn't show leather on it. We both understand that. My confusion comes when you say Jim stated that leather was indicated on this particular invoice as being standard, above the line of asterisks. What you have is the invoice and leather isn't listed. I think it's the window sticker that is being discussed.
Here's a partial of my invoice. I'll look for the complete, but what's shown below is all the options listed on the invoice (which is why it's cropped):
The above Notchback of mine came after yours. You forgot to omit the VIN at the bottom of your invoice
Ours were within a few weeks of each other I'm certainly not going to say that I'm not wrong or never wrong, so this could be one of those times. But it does appear to me to be a bit of misunderstanding. But I could be wrong.
No, there was no misunderstanding. When I ordered the invoice Jim Mattison said that the leather was shown on my invoice, but I was confused because I didn't see it in the option list. I called him back and he told me that he had contacted GM directly and GM told him that the leather was indicated, as I described, on this particular invoice as being standard, above the line of asterisks.
If you have had notchbacks with cloth, and you have the vehicle invoices, I would like to see what your vehicle invoice lists in the same location.
If you have had notchbacks with cloth, and you have the vehicle invoices, I would like to see what your vehicle invoice lists in the same location.
11-14-2010, 09:58 PM
#9
Thanks for letting me know I had the VIN still listed on that invoice, I edited it out.
I understand that I posted an invoice. I also posted an SPID which shows that it has the leather option on it. I was saying that the RPO for leather is listed above the horizontal line of asterisks on the vehicle invoice, indicating it was standard on this particular vehicle. I circled this number, as it is the specific number that Jim and I discussed (*8228).
I am also posting a copy of my window sticker. If the window sticker is the bottom line for what the car came standard with, it's clear that the features which were standard on the notchback cars changed rather frequently, considering these two cars were built within two weeks of each other. My car came standard with the power deck lid release, power antenna, LH remote/RH manual mirrors, power front seats, but not the folding rear seat, whereas yours does not list the power deck lid release or power antenna as standard, and it lists power mirrors, manual front seats, and folding rear seats as standard.
The most interesting part to me is that on your window sticker, it lists B20 as being the group which would have adjustable front seats with leather trim. Mine, however, lists B20 as a group which would have cloth trim. Perhaps when yours was ordered, the B20 group had to be ordered to receive the leather interior, and when mine was ordered the leather came standard, and the B20 was just for the luxury doors, folding split rear seat, and carpeted kick panels.
I have attached a partial of my invoice. This is the part that I'm referring to, above the horizontal line of asterisks, right where your invoice is cut off. The part that is circled, *8228, is what Jim told me indicates that the car came with a leather interior standard. He told me that this is what GM told him. He was not entirely clear as to what the 8 after 822 meant, though he said it was likely to indicate that the car was built in 1988. Personally I think it could have meant a specific option group, meaning it came with power seats, power antenna, etc.
I could also be wrong, but here's all the documentation, and there's a lot of discrepancies for a separation of only two weeks. Then again, GM wasn't always consistent as many of us know. I would like to see more of the notchback invoices, window stickers, and SPIDs so that I could definitively know what was standard and what was not. I would appreciate any more information from the GTA experts, as I'm new to the GTAs but have had IROCs for years.
I understand that I posted an invoice. I also posted an SPID which shows that it has the leather option on it. I was saying that the RPO for leather is listed above the horizontal line of asterisks on the vehicle invoice, indicating it was standard on this particular vehicle. I circled this number, as it is the specific number that Jim and I discussed (*8228).
I am also posting a copy of my window sticker. If the window sticker is the bottom line for what the car came standard with, it's clear that the features which were standard on the notchback cars changed rather frequently, considering these two cars were built within two weeks of each other. My car came standard with the power deck lid release, power antenna, LH remote/RH manual mirrors, power front seats, but not the folding rear seat, whereas yours does not list the power deck lid release or power antenna as standard, and it lists power mirrors, manual front seats, and folding rear seats as standard.
The most interesting part to me is that on your window sticker, it lists B20 as being the group which would have adjustable front seats with leather trim. Mine, however, lists B20 as a group which would have cloth trim. Perhaps when yours was ordered, the B20 group had to be ordered to receive the leather interior, and when mine was ordered the leather came standard, and the B20 was just for the luxury doors, folding split rear seat, and carpeted kick panels.
I have attached a partial of my invoice. This is the part that I'm referring to, above the horizontal line of asterisks, right where your invoice is cut off. The part that is circled, *8228, is what Jim told me indicates that the car came with a leather interior standard. He told me that this is what GM told him. He was not entirely clear as to what the 8 after 822 meant, though he said it was likely to indicate that the car was built in 1988. Personally I think it could have meant a specific option group, meaning it came with power seats, power antenna, etc.
I could also be wrong, but here's all the documentation, and there's a lot of discrepancies for a separation of only two weeks. Then again, GM wasn't always consistent as many of us know. I would like to see more of the notchback invoices, window stickers, and SPIDs so that I could definitively know what was standard and what was not. I would appreciate any more information from the GTA experts, as I'm new to the GTAs but have had IROCs for years.
11-14-2010, 10:18 PM
#10
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
Is your window sticker a reproduction? The one I posted above is an original.
I ask because the reproductions have been known to have errors. One of the members on here posted a reproduction copy of their window sticker for their 1987 GTA: http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/c...GTAsticker.jpg
Notice the error:
3 speed (manual) transmission behind a 5.7L ?!
Yours doesn't have that error, but yours is a 1988.
I also have a reproduction window from a fellow Notchback owner. It looks exactly like yours where it line items the power equipment. Therefore, I think what we're seeing might be difference between original documents and reproductions.
If leather seats became standard on the Notchback, especially after a certain point in production, I certainly would be interested to know more details. I've never heard of it, and I've never seen any Pontiac bulletin about any change. I'll I've seen is the Pontiac bulletin announcing the option, and then one announcing the cancellation. I should note, the one announcement about the cancellation came before the 1989 Notchbacks in Canada were built and shipped, so, GM documentation is certainly no end all be all.
I ask because the reproductions have been known to have errors. One of the members on here posted a reproduction copy of their window sticker for their 1987 GTA: http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/c...GTAsticker.jpg
Notice the error:
1987 FIREBIRD/TRANS AM/FORMULA
5.7 LITER V8 ENGINE
FUEL INJECTION, MANUAL
3 SPD TRANS
FEEDBACK FUEL SYSTEM
5.7 LITER V8 ENGINE
FUEL INJECTION, MANUAL
3 SPD TRANS
FEEDBACK FUEL SYSTEM
Yours doesn't have that error, but yours is a 1988.
I also have a reproduction window from a fellow Notchback owner. It looks exactly like yours where it line items the power equipment. Therefore, I think what we're seeing might be difference between original documents and reproductions.
If leather seats became standard on the Notchback, especially after a certain point in production, I certainly would be interested to know more details. I've never heard of it, and I've never seen any Pontiac bulletin about any change. I'll I've seen is the Pontiac bulletin announcing the option, and then one announcing the cancellation. I should note, the one announcement about the cancellation came before the 1989 Notchbacks in Canada were built and shipped, so, GM documentation is certainly no end all be all.
Thanks for letting me know I had the VIN still listed on that invoice, I edited it out.
I understand that I posted an invoice. I also posted an SPID which shows that it has the leather option on it. I was saying that the RPO for leather is listed above the horizontal line of asterisks on the vehicle invoice, indicating it was standard on this particular vehicle. I circled this number, as it is the specific number that Jim and I discussed (*8228).
I am also posting a copy of my window sticker. If the window sticker is the bottom line for what the car came standard with, it's clear that the features which were standard on the notchback cars changed rather frequently, considering these two cars were built within two weeks of each other. My car came standard with the power deck lid release, power antenna, LH remote/RH manual mirrors, power front seats, but not the folding rear seat, whereas yours does not list the power deck lid release or power antenna as standard, and it lists power mirrors, manual front seats, and folding rear seats as standard.
The most interesting part to me is that on your window sticker, it lists B20 as being the group which would have adjustable front seats with leather trim. Mine, however, lists B20 as a group which would have cloth trim. Perhaps when yours was ordered, the B20 group had to be ordered to receive the leather interior, and when mine was ordered the leather came standard, and the B20 was just for the luxury doors, folding split rear seat, and carpeted kick panels.
I have attached a partial of my invoice. This is the part that I'm referring to, above the horizontal line of asterisks, right where your invoice is cut off. The part that is circled, *8228, is what Jim told me indicates that the car came with a leather interior standard. He told me that this is what GM told him. He was not entirely clear as to what the 8 after 822 meant, though he said it was likely to indicate that the car was built in 1988. Personally I think it could have meant a specific option group, meaning it came with power seats, power antenna, etc.
I could also be wrong, but here's all the documentation, and there's a lot of discrepancies for a separation of only two weeks. Then again, GM wasn't always consistent as many of us know. I would like to see more of the notchback invoices, window stickers, and SPIDs so that I could definitively know what was standard and what was not. I would appreciate any more information from the GTA experts, as I'm new to the GTAs but have had IROCs for years.
I understand that I posted an invoice. I also posted an SPID which shows that it has the leather option on it. I was saying that the RPO for leather is listed above the horizontal line of asterisks on the vehicle invoice, indicating it was standard on this particular vehicle. I circled this number, as it is the specific number that Jim and I discussed (*8228).
I am also posting a copy of my window sticker. If the window sticker is the bottom line for what the car came standard with, it's clear that the features which were standard on the notchback cars changed rather frequently, considering these two cars were built within two weeks of each other. My car came standard with the power deck lid release, power antenna, LH remote/RH manual mirrors, power front seats, but not the folding rear seat, whereas yours does not list the power deck lid release or power antenna as standard, and it lists power mirrors, manual front seats, and folding rear seats as standard.
The most interesting part to me is that on your window sticker, it lists B20 as being the group which would have adjustable front seats with leather trim. Mine, however, lists B20 as a group which would have cloth trim. Perhaps when yours was ordered, the B20 group had to be ordered to receive the leather interior, and when mine was ordered the leather came standard, and the B20 was just for the luxury doors, folding split rear seat, and carpeted kick panels.
I have attached a partial of my invoice. This is the part that I'm referring to, above the horizontal line of asterisks, right where your invoice is cut off. The part that is circled, *8228, is what Jim told me indicates that the car came with a leather interior standard. He told me that this is what GM told him. He was not entirely clear as to what the 8 after 822 meant, though he said it was likely to indicate that the car was built in 1988. Personally I think it could have meant a specific option group, meaning it came with power seats, power antenna, etc.
I could also be wrong, but here's all the documentation, and there's a lot of discrepancies for a separation of only two weeks. Then again, GM wasn't always consistent as many of us know. I would like to see more of the notchback invoices, window stickers, and SPIDs so that I could definitively know what was standard and what was not. I would appreciate any more information from the GTA experts, as I'm new to the GTAs but have had IROCs for years.
11-14-2010, 10:27 PM
#11
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
I think you may be right about the difference between the original window stickers and the reproductions. So, the difference between mine and the original you posted is probably a moot point. However, the invoice is from original microfilm, and the invoice is what Jim told me indicated the standard leather. I would like to see the top part of your invoice, to see if it indicated the standard trim on your vehicle as being cloth. This way, we could compare two original documents, which is far more reliable than looking at a reproduction window sticker.
11-14-2010, 10:35 PM
#12
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
Here's the invoice for another of my Notchbacks:
Notice it was a somewhat late production in July. Notice I have the *19D for cloth (black) seats.
I think that sort of tells that the * does not indicate standard equipment. I don't think it would make sense for the Notchback to briefly have a period of having standard leather seats, then revert back to cloth seats? This Notchback came after yours.
Notice it was a somewhat late production in July. Notice I have the *19D for cloth (black) seats.
I think that sort of tells that the * does not indicate standard equipment. I don't think it would make sense for the Notchback to briefly have a period of having standard leather seats, then revert back to cloth seats? This Notchback came after yours.
11-14-2010, 10:36 PM
#13
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
Here's a curious bit - I just noticed that my invoice lists B20 as being a luxury cloth-trim interior, but the original window sticker you posted states that B20 is a luxury leather-trim interior. So what is B20? Did the RPO change in the middle of the year?
11-14-2010, 10:45 PM
#14
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
Ah, great! Thank you for posting your invoice, this at least tells me that my invoice lists that my car came with leather, and that yours came with 19D black cloth. So that clears up some confusion. This is the part I've been referring to that Jim told me about.
I'm still not entirely sure about what was standard or not, because I don't see leather listed anywhere on my invoice except where yours lists the 19D. But maybe it was the B20 RPO that got you leather for the notchback, though mine says B20 gave a cloth-trim interior?
What about the one that was made within two weeks of mine? What does it list on its invoice for the interior trim code?
I'm still not entirely sure about what was standard or not, because I don't see leather listed anywhere on my invoice except where yours lists the 19D. But maybe it was the B20 RPO that got you leather for the notchback, though mine says B20 gave a cloth-trim interior?
What about the one that was made within two weeks of mine? What does it list on its invoice for the interior trim code?
11-14-2010, 11:15 PM
#15
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
In regard to the partial invoice I posted above, which was within a few weeks of yours, it has *66D up top for beechwood cloth seats. It doesn't show B20 on my invoices, though it's on the RPO stickers.
B20 was standard on the 1988 GTA. I can also say B20 is on my 1988 Trans Am (non-GTA) that doesn't have leather nor the Ultima seats.
B20, per GM, is "ORNAMENTATION, INTR, LUX"
B20 was standard on the 1988 GTA. I can also say B20 is on my 1988 Trans Am (non-GTA) that doesn't have leather nor the Ultima seats.
B20, per GM, is "ORNAMENTATION, INTR, LUX"
11-14-2010, 11:29 PM
#16
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
But the original GTA window sticker that you posted has B20 for $375.00 as having leather seats and my original invoice has B20 with cloth seats for the same $375.00? My invoice also has 8228 for the leather at the top of the invoice for the seats?
Last edited by yo soy el warg; 11-15-2010 at 09:18 AM. Reason: price of option
11-14-2010, 11:48 PM
#17
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
I should note that window sticker is not for my Notchback. It was sent to me by a member. That car does have leather seats.
I'll look to see if I have an original window sticker for the cloth Notchback and get back to you. I'm going to guess that would show a reflection in the price for that B20.
I'll look to see if I have an original window sticker for the cloth Notchback and get back to you. I'm going to guess that would show a reflection in the price for that B20.
11-15-2010, 09:50 AM
#18
Senior Member
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
This is interesting. I checked my cars invoice and it shows *82D8* on the top of it. But looking at the top of my invoice what I see above the asterisk line is not necessarily "standard" equipment. Mine shows:
Invoice # - Pontiac Division/Address
Year and Model
Color - Interior Trim - Engine
Order Number/Type
VIN
What throws me the most about this is that there is no mention of any change in the Notchback option or any change in standard equipment brought about by it in any Car Distribution Bulletin that was sent to dealers during the '88 model year. and PMD was almost "****" about sending any change in trim or equipment, however insignificant, out to the dealers.
To me, that does show that your Notchback was indeed equipped with the 822 leather trim option, but not necessarily "standard" for that model. Does that make sense?
There are still interesting "erroneous" bits of data out there.... like HPP claiming in the 1988 PMD preview that for 1988, ALL GTAs were slated to be Notchbacks. This in turn was supported by the fact that in the mountain of certification data sent to the Government for the '88 cars, the GTA model is specifically shown (by the size noted in the app) to have the Notchback window. The rest of the Firebird line was shown to be submitted for certification with the large familiar hatchback glass.
I don't really think anything could have been done to spur sales for the AA8 option; to this day, it's a love it or hate it deal.... plus the option had lukewarm support at best within Pontiac besides. As for colors and trim figures... not possible. PMD only kept RPO installation totals, not any combinations.
I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong, but it is spurring some good debate about this.
Invoice # - Pontiac Division/Address
Year and Model
Color - Interior Trim - Engine
Order Number/Type
VIN
What throws me the most about this is that there is no mention of any change in the Notchback option or any change in standard equipment brought about by it in any Car Distribution Bulletin that was sent to dealers during the '88 model year. and PMD was almost "****" about sending any change in trim or equipment, however insignificant, out to the dealers.
To me, that does show that your Notchback was indeed equipped with the 822 leather trim option, but not necessarily "standard" for that model. Does that make sense?
There are still interesting "erroneous" bits of data out there.... like HPP claiming in the 1988 PMD preview that for 1988, ALL GTAs were slated to be Notchbacks. This in turn was supported by the fact that in the mountain of certification data sent to the Government for the '88 cars, the GTA model is specifically shown (by the size noted in the app) to have the Notchback window. The rest of the Firebird line was shown to be submitted for certification with the large familiar hatchback glass.
I don't really think anything could have been done to spur sales for the AA8 option; to this day, it's a love it or hate it deal.... plus the option had lukewarm support at best within Pontiac besides. As for colors and trim figures... not possible. PMD only kept RPO installation totals, not any combinations.
I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong, but it is spurring some good debate about this.
11-15-2010, 11:01 AM
#19
Re: '88 GTA Notchbacks all have leather seats?
I talked to Jim Mattison at PHS again this morning and sent him the latest information that everyone has gathered so far on this mystery leather. He is looking into it further.
Does anybody have an original invoice and an original GM window sticker on another 1988 notchback GTA that had leather seats? If so would you please post it. Thanks to everybody for the help.
Does anybody have an original invoice and an original GM window sticker on another 1988 notchback GTA that had leather seats? If so would you please post it. Thanks to everybody for the help.
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