Two reasons why GM made so many 305 autos with highway gears:

1) Easier to comply with CAFE standards.
2) Consumers of new cars are more intersted in style and fuel economy than in performance.

The avarage consumer doesn't know squat about cars. But for those of us that do, we check the right option boxes to build a performnce model. I factory ordered a 1992 Formula LB9/M5 with 3.42 gears back in Nov 1991 bacuase I couldn't find one on a dealer lot anywhere, even through an exhaustive search by a dealer.

The problem for us enthusuiasts is that 20 years later, the "good ones" are even harder to find. For most of us, these cars are toys so we don't care about fuel economy. Thats why we want, but have trouble finding, an L98 with 3.23 gears.

Today, every time I see a 2010 Camaro, I check it for the slit above the grill, and I hardly see one. Most of them are six bangers (300 hp six bangers mind you) for the same reasons above. I really thought the new Camaro was going to cater toward the enthusists and build mostly SS models, but I was wrong.

The avarage schnook buying a new car spends his money on high style and low performance.

 

You both are on point! I love it.

But honestly, an IROC-Z in good condition today is still in my opinion the best Camaro, especially with the 350 originally like mine, is the best Camaro from the late 80's, early 90's. GM only produced a little over 160,xxx IROC's and even less 350's for a 5 year period with the last car coming off the line on 12-31-1989 for the 1990 year. So it's not like there are THAT many left anyways. Maybe 50,000 if I had to guess.

 

Honestly brother, I have no idea about the Firebird's. I will be honest further, I don't know alot about the Camaro's sister, the Firebird, T/A, because Camaro's are my thing. I'm sure this site has the info for you though....

 

Boy are you right! I'm sure glad I found mine when I did. Sure, I'm not keeping it all original but dang, I know what I have.

 

Comparing displacement to horsepower by percentages, yes close anyway. A Z/28 302 (4 inch bore short stroke) with a ratty cam and big Holley made an advertised 290 horses in a modestly sized car. The late 3rd gen Camaro is a comparable sled, but will out turn and out stop a 60s/70s car stock to stock. The newer car will also get better gas milage. The newer cars are also much more plush and nicer to ride in with much better feel and amenities.


The "Golden Era" from a gearheads pov is gone....in the 50s and 60s America was in love with cars. A car didn't cost as much as a house and was used for pleasure as much as transportation. They were creations with glitter and gusto. Muscle cars were new to the general population starting with the Ford flathead and included such monsters as the Buick Nailhead, the early and late Chrylser/Desoto/Dodge Hemi motors, the 413 Cross Ram Max Wedge motor from Chrysler corp, the Aluminum 427 Chevrolet big block, the LS# 454, and the 455 Olds torque monsters....and probably some others I have failed to mention.

All these cars were 13-15 second cars...that wouldn't stop and couldn't turn, compared to the 90s cars. Sure they made 550 horses and were de-rated or tuned down for insurance relations, but didn't have the suspension or tires we have now.

So my answer to the question is yes, a third gen is ahead of the classics by a long shot.

 

A couple comments on the above posts...

1) You cannot blame GM for selling what people wanted, while needing to cater to government regulations. Sure...years later its easy to say "all IROCs should've had the best motor," and "its stupid how some IROCs are barely better than an RS." Indeed, this would've been nice. The problem is, there were clear and real issues GM had with getting these dated engines to pass smog and gas standards. Let's face it...put a fancy induction system on an SBC, like they did in the '80s, and it was archaic even by '80s standards. Period road tests said as much!

86 305 TPIs got castrated because of fuel requirements. 25 less HP and 2.77s instead of '85s 3.42s = about 2 MPG city and 3 MPG highway, roughly. When it comes to CAFE standards, that's a HUGE improvement for minimal investment on GM's part. Seeing as how the crappy LG4 cam was available off the shelf, I'm sure the investment from GM was virtually zero.

2) For the record, almost 70% of Camaro sales thus far have been the "2SS" model, which is the fanciest, most expensive available. So, in reference to the above comment about seeing mostly V6s, it must be unique to your area.

3) I'm going to drop the whole LT1 versus certain L98s with certain gearing and certain engine management setups Its getting a little ridiculous. Yes, I suppose I can see where specific L98s could keep up with, or potentially beat an LT1. But the NORMAL situation does not yield that, by any stretch.

Take 2 cars...both weigh the same. Both have the same gears (lets say both are A4/3.23 cars...ignoring the legions of 6 speed LT1 cars out there that are quicker still...much quicker)...weigh the same...one has better torque, but one has at least 30-40 additional horsepower.

Now tell me the weaker one is faster. OK...not buying it, and neither would most people. Add in the fact that a ton of LT1 cars are 6 speeds, and the disparity only grows. Like I said, I can see certain situations where an L98 car would be quicker.

Alas, this is not the norm.

 

GICATA, yes ,with the exception of bbc cars, the
L98 tpi cars are faster 0-60 than most of the 60's sbc cars. Think about it a 1990 iroc 350 tpi w/auto trans pulls off 0-60 in 5.8 sec and a 90 GTA in 6.3. The 60's cars are not as fast as v8 performance cars of the 90's and up. It's not horsepower to be so concerned with, I would look more at 0-60 and 1/4 mile. I bet you a supercharged camaro making 350 hp vs a camaro with a built motor that makes 350hp would win in a 1/4 mile vs the naturually aspirated one.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNi3qQHBTU0

 

89rs454. So what does that prove? Ok so an lt1 beat that particular iroc. I bet you that lt1 wouldn't do that to mine.LOL. Yes, a bolt on L98 car would be in lt1 territory. I have raced Lt1's and both were fighting for the one lane up ahead. Needless to say, he couldn't pass me!

 

Oh, and i beat that lt1 using a non-posi 273 gear.LOL

 

Just pointing out that the IROC 305tpi-T5 won. Stock for Stock

 

Sorry dude , it looked like the lt1 car was pulling on the iroc a little at the beginning.LOL

 

Drew, I have to strongly dissagree with your argument here and side with Jason E on this one. Saying a 350 TPI is faster or as fast as an LT1 in a street light race or 1/4 mile race is just rediculous. Stock for stock, the LT1 is a faster motor, period. There is a HUGE range of drivers out there, with most not able to drive thier car to thier full potential, and that gives you an "average" 1/4 mile time. There have been bone stock LT1's hiting mid 13's consistently due to excellent drivers. I have personally never heard of a "bone" stock L98 breaking 13's but I guess it's possible. And comparing an LS1 to an L98 is also out of the ballpark. An LS1 will trap around 107 mph in the 1/4 compared to the L98's 97 mph. 10 MPH is huge in a 1/4 mile race.

The L98 was a great performer in it's day, no question, and they do respond decently to bolt on's. They however are not in the same ballpark as an LT1 or LS1 engine. We could argue all day that "if the L98 had better gears, yada yada yada it would smoke an LT1"........but they didn't, so stock for stock the win goes to the LT1. LT1's were also slightly under rated and made closer to around 295 HP by stock dyno numbers. They also get full torque around 2300 rpm's or so and are known for being a torquey engine, so that shouldn't play an issue when put up against a TPI.

Comparing your modded IROC to a stock LT1 and saying "well he wouldn't beat MY IROC" is r*cer talk. The argument is about factory performance levels, not modded. And a bolt on LT1 would take a bolt on L98 any day of the week, no matter how you slice it. They breath better and have more power potential because of the intake design, hands down.

 

And here is the identicle LT1 camaro killing a 350 TPI auto IROC. Same youtube poster as well. The white G92 5 speed car seems like a freek. I have seen his vids and he wins some races that he probably shouldn't have, but thats the name of the game when street racing. Anything can happen, however sometimes it's definately not the "norm."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWdvMsgzcQY&NR=1

 

Hey man i'm with you . My brother has a stock 96 Firebird lt1 t56 and he kicks tpi *** all the time lol, but i still love the torque these late IROC-Zs throw down stock.

 

Not trying to argue with you here I just want to make a few points to your post.

#1. I agree that you can not blame GM for selling what people wanted but in the 4th gen years if you wanted a ram air hood or the taller better looking spoiler the only way to get it was with the SS package and even in 96-97 even if you wanted to buy one from GM you had to give them a VIN number from an SS before they would sell you one (obviously there are a ton of aftermarket ones available today) and they also claimed that the SS had more HP than the Z28 how much more I'm not sure of but I think they claimed between 20 and 30 more HP. I would think they would have been more receptive to having a for lack of a better word kick *** Camaro in 1985 when the IROC started and these things were flying off the lots when they still had a Z28 model that could be equipped close to the IROC performance wise but didn't have to be well it still had the ground effects package and looked pretty similar to the IROC well in the 4th gen years they were having trouble selling them. I know when I bought my 4th gen I would have loved an SS look a like with the V6 but they never made one.

#2. On the 5th gen SS argument, I think you guys are both kind of right. I had heard (and my numbers could be off) that they had 35,000 orders for the new Camaro but they could only build 25,000 a year, obviously that's not true because you see them at about every chevy dealership, my local dealership usually has 3 of them and never less than 2. But if there are 3 of them at my local dealership 2 of them are V6 modes with the other one being a SS2 all loaded up. But I am sure that the majority of the new Camaros were specially ordered as SS2s and don't sit on a dealers lot for everyone to look at, but for the few unsold that are left most are the V6 model since as everyone knows the cheaper car will sell easier.

#3. I think it's kind of silly to argue about which stock motor is better (L98, LT1) since today MANY of them don't run as good as they did when they were new. You guys can post youtube videos all day of this car beating that car or vice versa but nobody knows what's been done to them as far as aftermarket add-ons or if an injector or sensor is failing on one to affect performance or for that matter if one car just has a better tune than the other one, you could put a different cam and chip in either car and no one would know the difference by looking under the hood.

Another quote I heard a long time ago is "Torque wins races and horsepower sells engines". I bring that up only because most people and I'm no different get caught up in HP numbers when in reality it's torque that you feel. You could have a 300 HP engine that couldn't chirp the tires but my 170 HP 305 engine will chirp the tires when I shift from 1st to 2nd gear. It's about torque when stop light racing. It is entirely possible that an L98 could run with an LS1 under certain conditions, but obviously the LS1 will spank an L98 in other conditions.

 

Hey guys, I'll admit I skimmed through alot of this real quick. But for those who are looking for published times...I submitted a whole host of articles before my laptop died and they're up in the Media section. Road Tests included. I believe the 15th L69 T5 car, a couple GTA articles, 1LE articles and the Firehawk one is up there. Its been awhile so I forget exactly what is in there. Most of them are from Motor Trend.

I have to say though, some of the cars listed in the 13 sec bracket are easily capable of going much faster stock. ZL1 cars are easily in the 12s and with slicks break 11s. The last hurrah for the era was the SD455, that car clocked 13.4 stock. with 290 net HP. I believe that one was an auto. Most of them run 13.8 or so I think. The run of the mil muscle cars however, I believe it is perception. But take one of those cars on a country road....and any third gen will blow them away.

https://www.thirdgen.org/media-articles For those looking for published numbers click and choose what article you want. Enjoy

 

Like what type of condition? Until 10 mph? I have owned an LS1 6 speed car. I will tell you that with me driving it there is absolutely no stock L98 car that would even have a chance of winning stoplight to stoplight with my old LS1 4th gen, and it was bone stock. Torque helps to a certain point. If you have a 300 HP hamster honda engine it will lay a smack down on the 170 HP 305 after 20 mph or so, I guarantee you. You are right that HP doesn't always win races alone, but it's a combo of the 2. Having a motor that makes 1000 lbs ft torque but 200 HP will lose badly to an engine making 300 HP and maybe 250 lbs ft torque.

I have been in the car game for a long long time. I get so tired of the same old argument that "our TPI engines make tons of torque so they will beat anything from a stoplight." Well thats ok to think, but it's not the case. The reson TPI's are great from a standstill is because they have very little wheelspin due to crap gears and no power. They make torque down low so they scoot off the line with little or no skill in the launch. Higher HP cars take more finesse to launch on the street hence why some people suck at a stoplight race. A skilled driver would have no problem beating any TPI engine from a standstill in a 4th gen.

 

Hey stock for stock, the Lt1 should win. I was saying that it is possible for an L98 car with bolt ons to be quicker than an Lt1.

 

There is some truth to what you said about Ls1 cars though. I raced an Ls1 and in the first 2 gears it was pretty much even until i got to the end of my second gear and he started walking away from me. He kept about a 2 car space distance from there on , all the way up to about 4th gear for me. So, i do believe that.

 

This is sooooo true. With fresh, sticky BFG G Force Sports on my IROC, flooring the car off idle with no power braking reveals almost zero wheelspin. Meanwhile, try launching my 6 speed LT1 with equally sticky Eagle GSCs. MUCH harder to do.

 

This back and forth isn't getting us anywhere.

I have personally run my 87 IROC-Z with about 10k miles and new tires on it against a 93 Z28 with about 20k miles and new tires. Both were obviously low mile original cars with no mods as the 93 was a Pace Car. Both cars were mine and in top running condition. My father was driving the 93 and both launched together, but I was slightly quicker. The IROC-Z held the lead and I could see that longer than 1/4 mile, the 93 would win. I was surprised that my 87 MAF car was able to hold with an LT1.

Now, from 40mph, my father left me in his dust when he was driving his 02 Z28 with the LS1. I felt like I was driving a 4 cylinder compared to the LS1 when rolling.

 

The back and forth is turning into the typical TPI vs LT1 vs LS1 argument, however I always feel like there is so much bad info between these arguments. Not many people have driven or owned one of each and have experience with all three engines.

If you don't mind me asking, do you remember the mph that both cars trapped when you ran them? Anythings possible in a 1/4 mile drag race where traction and a good launch play such a huge role in taking a win. The higher trapping mph car however is ussually the "quicker" car in a sense, but just didn't get a great launch.

I have also noticed that for some reason most M6 LT1 cars put down WAY more power than the A4 models do. The typical stock LT1 M6 puts down around 265 RWHP while the A4 models only on average put down around 240 RWHP.

 

Having sold Pontiacs from 2000-2006, I had the privledge to drive a slew of different LS1 Firebirds, on top of my LT1 Camaro I own(ed) at the same time. I guess I've been lucky to have had access to, over the years, an LO3, an LB9, an L98, an LT1 and an LS1

With that said, the LS1 is a far better engine after 3500 than an LT1. Its a bigger step up from an LT1 than an LT1 is from an L98. But, it is a step up.

Scott,
No one is trying to purposely circle-jerk this thread, but I agree with whitedevil. There is a fair amount of misinformation that exists. Glad to hear your 87 kept up with an LT1....maybe I should run my L98 against my LT1...in the name of science, of course

 

The truth is that the 60s and early 70s cars are overrated not only in perception but in their gross HP ratings, besides a few exceptions. (the Z28, ZL1, etc.) A top model Third Gen would make 85% of everything from the musclecar era look not only overmatched in a straight line but any other area of performance would be outright destruction. I still really like those cars regardless though, I've seen owners of the originals pick up some newer stuff for contrast in the last few years. Needless to say, they are impressed with the driving experience and advancements of a 3rd or 4th Gen but like the simplicity and ease of modification on the originals.

A G92 L98 car is capable of beating an LT1 with lousy gears, but in a longer race, a good geared LT1 will usually win easily. 0-60 the L98 is capable of beating either. Even in a race with an LS1 an L98 will usually beat it through some of 2nd, but when 3rd comes along they fly by as if you were standing still. I'd say 0-50 stoplight races are the L98s sweet spot and they are very difficult to overtake, even for cars more than 20 years newer. Also, I don't know about other people's L98s, but even when my car (like SM, loaded 87 MAF L98 3.27 car) was stock besides a little advanced timing and on BFG KDWs, there was no possible way to launch that car hard without providing a sideways burnout show. FWIW, I hit a 0-60 of 6.0 on a G-Tech with some spin. Forget trying to stall it up, it was worse. When I added a higher stall and exhaust, I gave up and put Nitto DRs on it, and it will also spin those at will, just less than before. Launching in a G92 L98 is NOT easy, just by virtue of it's big block TQ monster nature with decent gears. The LS1 is an easy car to launch because they pull mostly in the mid-higher RPMs, exactly the opposite of a 350 TPI. Around town an LS1 feels docile compared to a good L98. The gears are important though. From what I've seen, they are the difference between any L98 regardless of year running about a 14.1-14.4 to a 14.6-14.9, it matters.

 

Have you ever driven/owned an LS1 car? An LS1 will destroy it's 275's from a standstill by just planting the gas in an auto. They are not easy to launch as not enough gas will bog them slightly but too much gas results in a smoke show. It's got to be just right. The reason an LS1 feels docile is because it's a higly computerized refined motor with an excellent 6 speed transmission behind it. Again, Regardless of people saying an L98 will hang with an LS1 car through 2nd gear, I will refuse to believe this until it's proven otherwise. I know how my LS1 pulled from a 1st gear start and I know that no L98 in stockish form would have a prayer staying with me past 1st.

 

Maybe I need to put in 3.27s more than I thought?? My 88 has great throttle response, and feels very strong from 2,800 RPM or so up to redline. However, I think even the 350 is blunted with 2.77s. As I said, I can floor it from a stop and barely get a complaint from the G Forces.

Either they are an incredible tire, or 2.77s suck. Its probably a mix of both...I couldn't put any power to the ground with the Gatorbacks I have noticed tires are a critical element with launching TPIs though. My peanut cammed TPI TA has 5-10 year old Comp TAs on it, and with 35 lb/ft less can spin the tires easily, even with posi.

Either my IROC is weak, or the tires are great

 

You seem to have missed the relevant part of the statement that you're arguing with. My statement was always that the top of the line L98 is "as fast or faster then the average LT1 automatic 93-97 Camaro/Firebird". That's the debate you got into, and you're the one saying other people are wrong when you're trying to change the facts to include 6 speeds, SS/WS6, and so on. Worse yet you have no frame of reference since you've never actually owned a late L98 with good gearing, and you've never driven one heads up vs a typical stock LT1 auto.

I can appreciate that it doesn't jive with general misconceptions that you accept, but then that's the point of this thread.

The misinformation is coming from people without first hand knowledge. I have no reason to misrepresent the truth. You can take it with a grain of salt, but when you call me a liar in so many words, I am going to reply.

 

Compared to an 89-92 L98 with 3.23 gears of better, or for that matter a LB9 5spd with 3.23 gears of better, I'd say your Iroc is probably weak.

 

Yes, I have driven an LS1. It was a stock Auto 35th SLP optioned SS with 3.23s. Not only was it easier to launch than my L98, the owner owns an 92 L98 G92 with low miles, and even he says the L98 feels stronger down low and can take the LS1 until some time in 2nd. Of course, after that, it would pull buses though. His L98 car chirps 2nd gear with just timing and exhaust with a little over 3/4 throttle. My car would spin 2nd gear down the block all stock with the lousy worn tires that came on it before the KDWs.

 

1) An LT1 automatic is not going to be eating L98 tailights on a consistent basis. Sure, you did it in one case. Scott did it once. Fantastic. I'm confident it isn't the norm. When the FASTEST L98 on record with a car mag did 0-60 in 5.8 seconds, and the SLOWEST LT1 I can find did it in 5.9?? Yeah, I'm gonna disagree with you. No one's calling you a liar...did I say what you experienced didn't happen? You were the one that was insulting me earlier, and I ignored it.

2) I bring up the 6 speed cars because this WHOLE THREAD is about perception versus reality. When the subject of 4th gens being the "return of performance," so to speak, came up, then of course the subject of 6 speed cars is valid to the overall theme of the thread.

I can see this is going nowhere, as well. I'm out...sorry to the OP for contributing to the derailment of his thread. I'm not surprised third gen guys on a third gen board are defending third gens. All well and good...but taking 2 cars of the same weight, and same gearing, and saying the one that has more HP is equal to or slowerthan the other doesn't make a ton of sense.

 

Actually Jason, I didn't insult you earlier. I said that you don't know what you're talking about because you're trying to compare your car, which is generally accepted by those "in the know" to be much slower then the cars we are talking about. I apologized because I could see that if what I typed wasn't read in the right tone it might hurt your feelings.

The fact is that you aren't reading and understanding what people are saying. You're trying to bend the debate by changing the topic from the best L98 the thirdgen platform had to offer to a much weaker version, and from the lamest LT1 built to the 6spd 97 Z28 you own. Yeah, your Iroc is slower then your 97 Z28, but that doesn't disqualify anything I was saying. It's completely irrelevant.

If you were actually reading and comprehending what was being said you would have noticed that I didn't beat one LT1 "once". As I stated, we raced when he was stock, and we raced after he modified the car. That alone makes it clear that it happened more then once and was not a fluke.

So what if it doesn't add up on paper? In the real world there are variables. You can theorize all you want, or you can accept what people with more experience are telling you.

 

My L98 is harder to take off in D1 without spinning. That is just stepping on the gas with no power braking either. Shifting into D2 without throwing the rear of the car sideways is tricky too, but i contribute some of this to the non-posi/open rear. Anyone ever tried to drive a modded L98 car in the rain?LOL.

 

I have to say, even an L69 car can burn rubber through first. But with 3.73 gears they do have a lil help. I had a hard time launching it on hills. The first time out with it I was in the cul de sac, tried to launch it like my Outback (didn't realize it at the time but big mistake....abliet a fun one) dropped the clutch at 2200 and it spun the rears for a good 30 feet or so. Then, I tried on a hill.......more fun with a accidental 3500 clutch drop, spun the tires for all of first, maybe a lil of second. Now I admit, the tires on it were crap, and the motor was an LG4 L69 Hybrid with the crap cam. It didn't have the higher RPM pull that I remember when it was with the original L69 though.

That motor is nothing though, compared to an L98, let alone an LS1. I've ridden in an LS1 that was admittedly modded to 374 horses at the flywheel....HOLY ****! Fastest car I've ever ridden in on the street. Anyway, Looked at the figures. (I've got more mag articles to end this debate about the L98 LT1 argument, but I'm not going to get involved) But based on what I've seen and read....L69s were tops of the early cars and can easily run with most muscle cars. TPI cars were tops of the middle cars easily running with just about any muscle car. L98s are tops (exceptions include the Firehawk and TTA but those are exceptions) of any third gen generally bought, and can probably out run any muscle car in stock tune except for the wilder ones. LT1s can break 13s, LS1s mid to deep 13s. Its all progressive. Naturally gearing and trannys can change that. Based on that. LS1s can out run any muscle car out right, LT1s not far behind. L98s win to the 60 foot mark most of the time I think.

 

1) I'm not merely talking about my own 2 cars. I am fully aware of the fact that a 6 speed, 3.42 geared LT1 and a 2.77 geared MAF L98 are one extreme of one, and the other extreme of the other. I've been to the track (not much with my own cars, but a lot with friends of mine)...I've read the mags. You say I lack the experience based on merely what I own, yet as I stated before, I have more experience above and beyond what I own. You don't seem to be giving any credit to that fact. So be it. I'm not seeing where an automatic LT1 and an automatic L98 G92 are running neck and neck all the time. I've read what you've said, and comprehended it just fine. When I referred to "once," I meant one specific example...no matter whether you ran 4 times or 100. I can read just fine.

2) Yes, you and Scott are saying one thing, and whitedevil and myself are saying something else. So be it. There can be variables in the favor of the L98. My point is, more often than not, I think the variables will favor the LT1. We can agree to disagre...it won't hurt me any.

For the hell of it, I'm going to price out an install of 3.27s in my IROC, as well as swapping a Magnaflow dual cat assembly onto it. In effect, I would have an '89-'92 G92 setup (short the SD, which I can't imagine is a "night and day" difference). Should be interesting to see what the difference really is.

 

Well, I can personally attest to the huge night and day difference switching from 2:77 LS gears to a 3:27 POSI unit does for our cars, especially if you're always used to a 2:77 gear under a 350. I did my swap for about $200 for the parts/labor and it took about 4 hours to do it with a rack. That and you've gotta re-calibrate the speedo and put some fresh LS/POSI rear end fluid in too. I mean I had 3:73 OD rear end on my Jeep which would've been great for my car if I could've found one for a decent price but I went with 3:27's which had less miles on it than my old 2:77 did.

 

Perception vs. Reality

We think of the late 60's-early 70's "golden age" musclecars as being fast, and some of them certainly were.

The main reason the perception is that they were so special is that perfomance took such an abrupt nose drive throughout the seventies. My neighbor has a 77 TA 400 4 speed, and is that thing ever a dog. I don't even have to race him, I know my 7 passenger mini van would smoke him handily.

It wasn't until the late 80's that Mustangs, Camaros and Firebirds got their perfomance back to were they left off 15 years earlier. Performance levels have risen steadily since then, but ironically the perception is that the new cars still aren't on par with the originals.

The new top model Camaro, Challenger and Mustang are evil beasts. 2011 is the good old days of musclecars.

Bottom line is that third gens, especially the latest editions, were respectable all around performers.

 

I went from 2.77's to a 3.23 4th gen rear in my LB9 5 speed car and it did make a pretty noticable difference. Def not a few tenths in the 1/4, but in "seat of the pants" I could feel it.

 

The VAST majority of Formulas and GTA's got the G92 goodies without the G92 option. I have yet to actually confirm a Formula 350 or GTA 350 without the 3.27 (87-89) or later 3.23 (90-92). The Trans Am on the other hand could have possibly gotten the 2.77, however that too I have yet to verify, Some years the TA it was also standard, later years for sure like 90-92 it was standard.

In the same vein, the Formula LB9/M5 and GTA LB9/M5 got the 3.45 and later 3.42 rear gear standard, The Trans Am it was an option... There has been only one confirmed exclusion to this, and I want to think it came out of Canada.

Remember, a Pontiac is technically a slight step up from the Chevrolet, so in many cases Firebirds would get things standard where a Camaro it would be an option.

 

AFAIK the base axle for the LB9/M5 was a 3.08, Unless you are talking about your 1986 under your Avitar... Then the only trans available that year for the LB9 was the Auto, which could have been a 2.77 or 3.27

 

I don't know why (about Pontiac being a slight step up than Chevy) because in this case the Camaro was released before the Firebird back in the late 60's. I call the Firebird the Camaro's cousin, lol.

 

You got the number 3 on your mind alot don't you? LOL. 3:77's would be great!

 

Maybe you need to go back and re-read the thread, stop on every word, and see what was posted, and what you said. Example
And the point you're missing is that the statements I made were qualified by excluding higher end examples, and 6spds. You just chose to completely ignore that part of the statement. It doesn't bother me what viewpoint you have, but I still reserve the right to say you're ignorant when you give examples of what you know that aren't relevant to the point I was making.

I think you'd be surprised. The difference between my Iroc and my Formula on paper is MAF vs SD, and single cat vs dual cat. It totals about 5hp and little more torque difference on paper. In reality the Formula is a beast, and the Iroc is a cow. I've driven a bunch of L98 cars, damn near every year, and the first 91 I ever drove caught me off guard. The numbers as tested in magazines support a bigger difference between 87 and 91 then between 91 and 93.

 

I think most of you on here have made alot of interesting and valid points on our cars and also some valid points on comparing a healthy and stout L98 against a non-6 speed LT1.

Paper vs. real life is definitely a big difference when you're talking about what is fast and how something feels and what it looks like. I'd much rather see something and hear it vs. just reading it. But without reading we wouldn't know alot about what we know either.

 

The numbers are out there... But the problem is that magazines only test new exciting cars. There are a ton of magazine reviews from 1981-82 about CFI cars. There are a bunch more about the L69, and then the 305TPI, and the last big bunch was the 87 305 TPI 5spd and 350 TPI. After that things quiet down a bunch, there are a few reviews of the TTA, and a few of the new for 91 line up. But there really isn't much showing the difference between 88 & 89, or 89 & 90. There's very little there to compare. Also the magazines liked to test 5spds because a performance car has to have a manual transmission, or they wanted to compare it apples to apples with the Mustangs. There aren't a lot of published numbers for 89-92 L98 cars.

There are a ton of 93 Z28 and Trans Am reviews out there too. A bunch of them show 14.1-14.4 (or worse) for early LT1 autos. Hot Rod (5/91) reviewed the entire Firebird line up for 1991, guess what their times were? How much difference is a couple of 10ths of a second? How much of a real world variable does it take to make up those 10ths of a second?

 

My car started out life as an auto LB9. I later swapped in a T5 conversion and then ditched the stock 2.77 disc rear for the 4th gen 3.23 rear. I'm assuming you meant to type 2.77 instead of 3.77 in your post!

The car is far from anything original in the drivetrain now, but it was def a fun little street machine with the old cammed LB9/T5 set up!

Pontiacs have always been a slight step above the chevy counterpart. Not necesarily in speed but in bells, whistles, and creature comfort. Pontiacs most of the time will have more plush interiors than a chevy and little things like flip up headlights and extra features like that. It was for someone that wanted a fancier version of the chevy counterpart so to speak.

 

Well, I want a LT1 T/A and that is the only LT1 powered car I want.

 

Explain to me how the release dates of two cars would determine whether or not one car was more upscale?

Thanks

John

 

yes, I intended to type 2.77 I edited it to be correct, thanks for pointing it out.

I wondered, thanks

 

There was no "point" except that I was stating a simple fact that the Camaro was released before the Firebird. I would have expected the Camaro to get more in terms of options but that really isn't all that important when performance is more of an important option to people like me.