Its early 90's and TPI is bringing power while meeting emissions, so there's no reason any for HP deflation/inflation gimmicks, right? So assuming a SAE net 245hp L98 is spot on. Recoup the maybe 10-15% (25-35hp) from parasitic loss. Factor in ideal ignition timing, free flowing exhaust, optimal tune, on quality gas, no accessories etc. Are you telling me our cars were making (comparatively) close to the same gross HP as cars in the "Golden Era"?

**BBC excluded. Lol.

On top of that, with the (comparatively) superior suspension and handling technology that's the "highlight" of our top performing third gens; on paper does the "Golden era" get pulverized by us, the same way we do from the LS generation? Either I'm crazy wrong or perception turned out to be reality.

 

Ignoring the inaccurate net-to-gross conversions... A fast production car from the modern era runs 13s. A fast production car from the muscle car era also ran 13s, but had to do it with 5" wide bias-ply tires under leaf springs.

 

But what was considered "fast". The perception that the standard muscle cars of the 60s and early 70s were fast compared to the later 3rd gen cars is incorrect. The standard 60s and 70s muscle cars *were* and *are* comparable to the 3rd gens. I decided to look for this and have been giving Drew credit for posting it, but it was actually mr396. The below is from a June 1984 Hot Rod magazine.





And here we have the "non standard" exceptional muscle cars of the 60's and early 70s. It's amazing how few there were in this category.

 

Look how high the trap speeds are compared to the ETs. They had power they couldn't use.

 

Does anybody have published reports that we can post here of accurate times of 80's cars? There is a list online that everybody keeps copying to their own site that lists the cars, times and speeds, but when I see someone post an 88 IROC-Z getting 15.5 seconds, there's an issue with the report. Especially when I see the same list advertise an 83 Z28 at 15.0. I would like to see real numbers with stock cars and marked as 305/350 and G92/non-G92.

 

Interested in seeing that 1980's chart if one exists.

 

I dont know what an L98 would "gross" out at, but I do know some of the L98's i've seen dyno'd put down 210-220whp when rated at 230-245 hp. Being that they do this through an automatic, this would really imply they are underated, being closer to 260-270 hp. Most 4L60E 700r4 cars seem to lose about 17-20% of rated power on a dyno.

 

that chart doesn't say what transmissions they were tested with? I'm not sure what kind of power loss the 4 speeds would have had, I've always heard you can expect about a 30% loss from the TH400 I'm not sure on a power glide, though I'm doubting the bi-ply's could have handled much more power

 

Alot of those cars simply weren't as powerful as the glamor of romanticized hindsight makes them seem, in The Mythology. In stock condition, that is. The HP "ratings" they came with were a complete joke, useful only for ad copy; they are not correlated very strongly at all to actual engine output. Look for example at the 68 Cougar (Mustang) with the "390 HP" 427, that trapped 93 mph. Yeah right. 390 HP my tailfeathers. Same for the "350 HP" 327 Nova, about a 3300 lb car, also trapping at 93. Yet people buy that WORTHLESS 151 cam that came in those things TO THIS DAY, and then wonder why their car is so slow.

They DID generally respond much more easily to mods than 80s cars did however; if for no other reason, because they weren't so crippled in so many ways that are REALLY HARD to change. Like TPI for example: arguably among the most "mod-hostile" induction systems ever built. But, they had COMPRESSION, and they had GEARS; 2 things 80s cars didn't have. Much less expensive to get BIG results from bolt-ons.

Those cars were also alot lighter than cars are nowadays, again, the romantic but FALSE mythology of "built like a tank" notwithstanding. For example, virtually EVERY Z28 and Trans Am got A/C in the 80s, virtually NONE had it in the 60s. No airbags, no crash protection, bumpers that if you parking-lot-bumped into something would fold up into the grille and smash it, no power anything, and the list just goes on.

Also keep in mind, the notion of a "racing torque converter" was in the same category as "jumbo shrimp" or "civil war" until the early 70s. My litle bro worked fro TCI in the mid-late 70s, and they had basically NO COMPETITORS back then. Look how many places you can buy TCs from now.

Yes indeed, alot has changed since then; and not all has got worse.

 

The truth is that L98 thirdgens with good gears are relatively "fast" cars. They're faster then your average stock 5.0 Mustang, or even the top of the line stock 5.0 Mustang of the same time period. They're as fast or faster then the average LT1 automatic 93-97 Camaro/Firebird. Even the LS1 in stock form wasn't that much faster. From a dead stop the TPI 350 produces more torque with less tire spin. With decent tires it's easy to get a jump on a stock LS1 that they're not likely to recover from on the street.

The problem with perception is that so many people have no clue what they're actually driving. L98 cars with good gears are the exception, not the rule. There are a bunch of them with highway gears, and even more 305's that people assume are 350's, or 350's swapped from Uncle Ned's 78 Chevy pickup. All those slow cars build the reputation, and that's fine by me.

Stock 89-92 L98 thirdgens tend to run the 1/4 in the low 14's under close to ideal conditions. Think ~14.0-14.4 @ 97-99mph. My 91 Formula ran 14.3@97.8mph with over 100,000 miles on the odometer, half bald tires, a cracked flywheel, rattling cats (broken catalysts), stock plug wires, etc. That was my third pass ever, launching at idle in 3rd gear. It's not an uncommon time for these cars in stock trim.

 

I think it's a little too one-dimensional to just compare quarter mile and horsepower.

These late 60's/early 70's cars peaked in hp and quarter mile, and it wasn't until the late 80's that some cars started to get back into those times. The 90's started changing that and now it's insane what factory cars are doing.

What makes the changes more impressive is when you take into account other factors, such as gas mileage, handling, safety, emissions, braking, livability of fuel injection vs. carbs, reliability, and subjective things such as feel and feedback.

 

The problem that you'll run into is that many magazines tried to test our cars apples to apples vs the 5.0 Mustang and other competitors. For that reason you get a lot of cheap thirdgens, and 305's so they could compare 5spd to 5spd, etc. What they didn't take into account is that Ford was selling a "one size fits all", and GM was selling a "have it your way". If you throw out the $$$ to $$$ comparison and run the top of the line Mustang GT or LX vs an L98 G92 Z28, the Z28 is going to eviscerate that Mustang.

The list that you see most places seems like an evolution of the old text list that was packaged with Cartest in the early 90's. It seems to me the numbers have been fudged a little since the first printing.

 

If thats the case, none of the information you posted on old cars is valid then either. I'm sure all I have to do is pick up a Motor Trend from 1988 and I can find an 88 Iroc-Z running mid 15's.

 

The 83 Z28 you refer to was tested by Car and Driver, but unfortunately I did not write down the month and year of the test. I saw the article myself. When I was in college I checked out a very large stack of magazines and went through them, apparently as it seems now looking back at it... collecting rather random data. Wish I had done a better job. Anyway, also found the following:

Aug 84 C+D, 84 15th TA L69, 15.5@89
Oct 84 C+D, 85 Iroc LB9 15.2@91, L69 15.4@90
Apr 85 C+D, 85 TA L69, 15.6@87
Jun 87 C+D, 87 Z28 LB9 15.2@90, 87 Formula LB9 15.3@89
Oct 84 R+T, 85 Z28 LB9 15.1 no MPH, "GM" data
Dec 84 R+T, 85 Z28 L69 16.5@90
Oct 86 R+T, 86 Z28 L98 (the unicorn) 15.3@90.5
(the last three may... were probably... Iroc's. I honestly probably didnt care to look)
Unk R+T, 87 Formula (5.7?), 14.9@93
Unk R+T, GTA + Z28 w/5.7, 15.5 @89.5 14.9@95 resp.

Consistency was non-existent. On top of that, the cars are not either... so if you're looking for accuracy, you're not going to get it.

 

None of the 5.7L times listed there seem to coincide with the data I've seen stock to mild cars run. Most L98's should be in the mid 90's mph trap range in typical 0-2000 ft DA's. I've hit 99-100 with just gears/exhaust in winter air on an 89.. I dont think full exhaust really adds THAT much power.

 

It is what it is. This is the problem with this so called data, people want to question it. If you question those numbers, then all of them are worthless.

 

I should elaborate on my comment. The numbers that I keep seeing posted are probably based on an 88 IROC-Z either 305 auto or if they are the L98, more than likely a non G92 car. The 83 Z28 that was marked at 15.0 was the L69 HO car.

 

Nice input guys. I hate to switch lanes on you but the initial reason I even asked my original question(s) weren't to find out who's got more HP or who's "faster";I just used the HP thing as the main variable that appears to play a role in our perception.

What I was originally getting at was that from my POV it seems like the "golden era" cars have a shadow that cast well into our best years and its historically perceived that the generation after ours is exactly where it (meaning "real" performance) all picks back up. I mean, while the value of third gens are increasing sort of swiftly it seems like its happening for the wrong reasons. For example, the butterfly affect type hype reverberating off the 5th gens from rejuvinating the Camaro nameplate. Also, with the arrival of the 5th, our position in the lineup is now dead center. Not too long ago third gens were too young to be cool in a classic sense, and simultaneously too old to be considered cool in a modern sense. Monetary value is going up because of things like that, rather than being based on the fact they were genuine DAMN good cars in their own right. Thus our third gens don't hold much cache, so non-monetary value is going...no where.

I'm in the market for a nice unmolested one, but the prices appear bloated for aforementioned reasons [$13,xxx+ for a non stock 66k mile LB9/M5 in 8/10 condition with few desirable options?]. I'm willing to pay today's (not 5yr from now) market prices to get what I want, but I have a hard time coughing it up when there's little merit reflected in the prices quite a few people are trying to hawk these things for right now. Drew mentioned above somewhere how a good bulk have little clue as to what they are really driving, and I feel like the same can be said about people who are selling. Look in-house and glance at some of these internet prices for camaro's vs (comparable Formula/TA's/GTA's) pontiacs, and across the board its not even close. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but the excluding the formula, you could get a better optioned TA/GTA than you could any IROC, especially after they simplied the model lineup in '88. Why the disparity? I wonder what would happen if GM revived Poncho, or never killed it to begin with, and then introduced stablemate for the 5th gen Camaro? Its turning into professional sports free agency with all this strike-while-the-irons-hot-buying-to-sell inflation (but that's another rant). In the end I guess I can't have my IROColate cake and eat it too.

This is just me expressing my opinion, feel free to express yours. *steps off the soapbox*.

P. S. I'm NOT a cheapo bastard, I'm willing to ante up the $$, bloated price or not. Just gotta finish saving $13,xxx first.

 

I've got a fairly broad perspective on this. Been doing cars since the early 80's when the original muclecars were affordable enough to beat on them. My current toy car is an 01 WS6 that's just a hoot.

This fall, my kid bought his first car, an 88 GTA LB9/M5. In comparison, it has neither the panache of the originals nor the performance of the newer cars. But is it ever fun to drive. It handles every bit as good as the WS6. And although the LB9 can't scream up to 6000 RPM, it feels just as powerful down low.

Except for the ultra hi-po old musclecars, third gens with either the L98/A4 or LB9/M5 combos are in the same performace ballpark.

And for the O.P., you will buy a really nice third gen for $13,000. Take your time and the right one will come along. But don't wait too long, because the price for good ones has definitely bottomed out.

 

The thing I've always liked about third gens is that they did more than just go in a straight line...and were the first muscle car generation I can think of that really did that. I mean, even today, indeed a 5th gen is a bunch faster than the best third gens (short of a Firehawk and TTA)...but they don't really handle any better.

So here we have a platform with late '70s designed tech that can still handle with the best GM can throw out today. Impressive. I've always thought the style of third gens was/is better than the old school cars as well.

Even if they are or are not as fast as the old school stuff, there's still a lot more to like about them, IMO...

 

Very true...I scored my IROC for less than that. The gap is going to get wider between clean originals and resto candidates as the economy rebounds. If you want one you don't have to mess with, buy it soon...

 

Right now, $13 to $20k should get you a mint, mid to low-mile survivor, with the lower mileage, more desirably optioned models going closer to $20k. Special editions should go for more than 20. Everything should work on the car with no restoration needed.

The beauty is I've seen very high mileage ones (~100k) in equally mint condition go for 9-12k, so if you buy and drive it you're not going to lose a ton on depreciation.

I think these are good cars to have, either to sock away and store or to drive them for fun now and restore years down the road. I plan on driving mine.

 

I agree on the low mileage ones. I paid a little under $13,000 for my 21,000 mile IROC, after watching these cars sell locally and on eBay for the past 10 years. eBay definitely is more expensive than buying locally, but its amazing what you can find on eBay.

For my money, I got a beautiful IROC 350 on original rubber in about 95 point condition. I've had to replace the tires (saved the originals, of course) because of safety concerns and noise issues...I added a pound of freon to the A/C, and I will need to replace the intake gasket this Spring, as it leaks a small amount of coolant onto the y pipe when started cold. After that, it is 100% perfect in terms of driving, mechanical, and interior condition. Its like a brand new car.

Sadly, the only thing I'm dismayed by is the fact that the RH side of the car was painted at one point. I caught the RR fender when looking at it, but didn't catch the door and RF fender until I brought it home. Considering that I'm a GSM for a car dealer, and that I'm paid to appraise cars every day, you can bet a damn good job was done painting it for me to miss most of it originally. Maybe the car was keyed at one point...maybe it was painted under warranty for paint issues (consider how many third gens had this happen...my parents owned one!). Because I will die owning this car, I guess it doesn't matter that much...but the fact that its there still irks me.

I won't drive this one much, but the Trans Am might get driven up to 1,500 miles a year. Its just so tight, and drives so nice, its hard to leave it in the garage, even though it looks like poop for now

 

I'm salivating right now over a sqeaky clean Purple Haze Z28 with 43k on the clock for $12, 995. For me mileage just reinforces the condition of the car, so its a bonus if its included. But, I may just go with a Formula/TA/GTA, spend a little less, get a better deal, spend the excess to spice it up in the wheel department, and call it a day. Besides, they're growing on me, moldy style.

 

D.ynamic,I absolutley loved your analysis of the state of the union third gen style. Distilled down I guess in the big scheme of things,"Man without a country" comes to mind! Respect will come with time I guess!.....BILL

 

i have an advertisement FROM GM in an old magazine that a 95 Z28 ran 14.9.

 

A 1990 Iroc Z did 0-60=5.8 sec 1/4 mile=14.4

That is the 350 Tpi one. Still faster than the new Maxima Se 3.5 and new Altimas, 350z's ,etc.
Yes, that is stock numbers too. The old 60's muscle cars are not as fast as the newer v8 cars either.

 

Madmax, all of the cars 1/4 mile times you listed were for 305 v8. Don't you know that GM made a 350 TPI too? Their ET's are much different, my friend.

 

ALL of the L98 350 TPI cars ran low 14's from the factory, and you should be able to break the rear tires loose in second gear with an auto tranny.

 

The deal is , the 60's cars are or were considered "fast" because in the early 70's and throughout the early 80's,cars got super sloooooow! emissions and gas shortage. A 455 big block in the late 70's may have been lucky to make 225 hp. Most cars were v8 anyway. Just about all cars were v8, but even the Vette at one point only made like 160 hp i believe. So, by the mid 80's cars were just starting to get some power put back in them. I think it wasn't until about 1985 or so until cars were getting 200 hp, and believe me, you had to have a Vette, Trans am or a 300zx turbo or even a Mustang GT to acheive that. That was all there really was to choose from if you wanted a "fast " car back then. So, 0-60 in 7.5 seconds in 1985 was "fast". Fast enough to pretty much smoke anyone on the road except for the 60's muscle cars, which were considered "just old cars". In fact, in the 80's when i was in high school. If you wanted a fast car , you had to get an old 60's muscle car, unless you could afford a new 200 plus HP Trans am, Camaro, Vette, etc. I think in the 90's , the standard for what is "fast" changed again. By the mid 90's it seemed to me that the new "200 HP" is now 300. Wow! to me that is amazing. That is a lot power no matter which way you look at it. Then Gm came out with the Lt1, then the Ls1. Which is badass IMO, but i like the simplicity of my TPI! Then, by the late 90's you have a whole new breed of car enthusiast called a "*****" running around. I always thought ,"are these guys really serious?" Well, i think according to consumer demand, the auto manufacturers started building cars according to what the "kids" were already doing. Bigger rims, wilder stereos, chrome tipped exhaust, dual exhaust(yes, even on 4 bangers and v6's). Then you have auto manufacturers competing with each other! Then environmental factors of course, like gas prices, technology ,etc. I guess that brings us to where we are now. I believe there is a 300 Hp v6 mustang out now. Well, that is not hard for us thirdgen guys to compete with if we have a few mods. I know i like the simpliciy of TPI( compared to new cars). I think our cars are muscle cars. Think about it. You can find any 305 or 350 block out there and throw the tpi stuff on it. They are built well, solid. They are light, they are American and a 350 TPI with headers is about dead even torque wise with a 69' Camaro 350. Well, that is my opinion folks. Later

 

Hey guys I know this thread has gotten way off topic but I just wanted to clarify a few things that ninetyone had said and keep in mind that I am not trying to knock TPI at all as I do think it's a great system for it's day. But you say how simple TPI is which I would agree with UNLESS you are going to do some mods to it, I have heard many horror stories of getting these things tuned right when adding mods, I have never done it but just from reading around here I have heard of people sending chips back 3 or 4 times to get a decent tune, where I have heard that the LS1s aren't as tough to tune, I'm sure it has to do with ECM technology being 20-25 years newer. Also I believe I read on this board that in 1987 they changed to a 1 piece rear main seal which also changed some other things (like bolt hole angles if I remember right) on the block so TPI won't directly bolt on an older 350 block. Now I know they started TPI in 1985 so I'm not sure how accurate that info is but maybe something was different on the 305 blocks. I guess I'm just trying to caution somebody wanting to put TPI on a 350 block that came out of a 1969 car just to do a little research first, hopefully someone chimes in that knows more than me.

Again I'm not trying to knock TPI if you ask me of the 3 generations of fuel injected performance V8s (L98, LT1, LS1) TPI is by far the best looking and if you look in the used market they are pretty cheap and they bolt right into our cars already, it's a pretty good option for an engine swap if someone is looking for one.

 

Part of the reason that the 93-up cars get the reputation for being the return of performance is because they don't have that issue of the LG4/L03/LB9/L98 all look the same on the outside, and the RS with it's 3.1L or 305 TBI looks damn similar too. From 93 up if the car says Z28 on the fenders/bumper cover, or it's a Trans Am or says Formula, it's automatically the big dog V8. From 82-92 Z28 emblems could mean any one of several V8's ranging from 140hp to 245hp. It's the same reason that the 5.0 Mustang has such a reputation. Every 5.0 Mustang in the EFI years got the top of the line 5.0 for that year, regardless if it's a secretary model LX or a GT. They all are considered fast when the 86 or 87 5.0, or any 5.0 auto is a total pig in stock trim. The reality is that the later Mustangs run better then the earlier cars. Back to the point, all those low output 305's gave the Z28/Irocz a bad image, and the RS that looked almost identical to untrained eyes didn't help either. Most people didn't buy G92 cars, so most people didn't get exposed to the true thirdgen potential. However, everyone was exposed to a carbed 305 at some point.

BTW the only thing keeping a TPI from bolting on an early small block is the bolt angles in the heads. Change the heads or the intake base and it'll all bolt on any small block.

 

As long as your lower tpi will bolt up to the heads, then TPI WILL bolt on to older blocks.You may have to tap the older block for a knock sensor or some other minor things , but a tpi engine is still a small block chevy. Yes, i think TPI is more simple compared to the newer motors like the LS1, etc. I agree with Drew. Later

 

Ok cool I was pretty sure I had read something was different but just out of curiosity does anyone know why they changed the angles?

 

By the way just out of curiosity what is more simple about TPI compared to the LS1? I know from a swap perspective it would be more simple to swap in a TPI motor over an LS1 since they were an option in 3rd gens but beyond that what is different? I know all the gauge signal comes from the ECM, they added more O2 sensors and they don't have a distributor but coil packs instead but is there something else I am missing? I was always under the impression it was pretty much the same system just the LS1 was upgraded quite a bit but is there any other sensors on the LS1 that a TPI doesn't have? I'm sorry I'm just curious.

 

More stuff to disconnect.LOL

 

This is getting off topic, but LS1 electronics is not much more complex than TPI. Cam and crank sensors for timing injectors and firing coils individually. And the PCM has better computing power.

In some ways, TPI is more complex - belt driven A.I.R. system with diverter and 8 pipes, cold start valve, egr valve, and a distributor has a lot of moving parts that an LS1 does without.

 

With respect to the 4th gens being considered the "return to power," or what have you, I will say that on average, a 4th gen LT1 should be able to outrun a TPI 350 third gen without a substantial issue. I know some people here will take issue with that...so be it. If you compare what the auto rags said, I have seen LT1 cars range from 5.3 - 5.9 seconds 0-60 (5.3 was a '93 M6 Z28 in Car and Driver, 5.9 was an A4 30th '97 convertible in C&D), and from 13.6-14.1 in the 1/4 mile (13.6 being a '96 SS, 14.1 being a whole slew of them).

Conversely, the FASTEST 350 I've ever seen or read about was the aforementioned '90 IROC above...a G92 speed desnsity model. As discussed, the 1/4 mile of that car is also slower. Meanwhile, I've seen TPI 350s be as slow as a 7.1 sec 0-60/14.9 second 1/4 mile run Motor Trend did with an '88 GTA.

There is a reason the 4th gens were seen as much better performers. They were. Across the board. As Drew put it, the performance was easier to access as well, as ALL V8s had the "good stuff", so to speak.

Not knocking third gens, obviously...but the facts are clear. I don't see TPI 350s being superior to LT1s, in any way. My IROC doesn't pull nearly as hard as my Z28...and it isn't just the 2.77s holding the IROC back, either...

 

Best guess? Because on a TBI/Carb intake, the center bolts are a pain to get at with the raised mounting pad for the TBI/Carb. The later bolt angle makes the bolts more vertical.

No offense Jason, but the fact is your 88 Iroc isn't the pinnacle of thirdgen performance. It's a well known fact that early, mass air cars, and especially low mileage cars that aren't even broken in yet, don't run as hard as later cars. The 2.77's ARE holding it back, amongst other things. I've got an 87 Iroc, 5.7L with 3.27 gears, it's still a pig. A pig that my Formula just plain slaughters. Passengers can tell the difference from their seat.

You can't compare what you know when all you know is the weak cousin. You might as well be saying that a 350 can't be THAT much better then a 305, when you've never driven a 350. Go find and drive a couple 89-92 L98 cars with 3.27 or 3.23 gears before you make a fool of yourself. You have no frame of reference here. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie...

The fact is, that whether it's documented in a magazine or not, members here have run stock L98 cars and posted their times. I've seen everything from 89 L98 Formulas to a fully loaded 91 GTA with leather seats and every option in the book running times just barely outside of the 13's. 87 and 88 L98 cars are ALWAYS slower. If you really look, you'll even see people saying they've run as low as 13.7 with "stock" cars. At any rate, 14.0-14.4 isn't unusual at all for a healthy L98 thirdgen with 3.23 or better gears.

 

Wow...

Anyhow, I have an article at home on the 91 B4C models that the first owner had with my car. I'll reconfirm when I get home but I believe both cars ran mid-14s. They tested a 350 L98/700R4 and an LB9/T-5. The difference was marginal between the two in a straight line...

 

On second thought that did sound a lot rougher then I meant it to sound. My apologies to Jason. My point is that the numbers don't reflect as much as first hand impression do.

 

Because I like to think of myself as being at least a somewhat valuable member to this board, and thoroughly enthusiastic about this board and the subject content than lies within, I will stick to my usual code and keep it above the line. I accept the apology.

The only SD 350 third gen I've driven was a '91 Z28, many years ago. It was a G92 car, and I drove it back to back with my '97 about 10 years ago now. It was a well-used, but well-tuned, example with about 110k miles on it IIRC. I remember thinking "wow, its nice to finally drive a 350, but I'm glad I bought the 4th gen instead...its so much quicker." Obviously, as time has gone on, my preferences have skewed back to the third gens, but without a doubt, the LT1 in my Z28 is fun from idle to redline, and feels heathier than any third gen 350 I've driven...I've driven 4, and driven them pretty hard, to date.

Empirical evidence from period magazines backs up my statement. Obviously, I am not bashing third gens here...far from it. But its hard for me to go along with the statement that a good 350 will run an LT1. From 0-60, there is a chance...in the 1/4 mile, we are a good .5 seconds quicker with the LT1, and that's on average...not by chance. My friend ran a best of 14.5 with his L98 the same day I ran a 13.89 with my LT1...the 1 and only day I ran it. Certainly, there was driver variance there, however I can say it was the first time for both of us, and he had the advantage of an AT. I had been driving a stick for a whopping 4 months when I went to the track As such, I was shocked to run a "mag time."

I am aware that 2.77s hurt my IROC, and plan to change them out at some point for 3.27s. As an "invisible mod" that was factory offered, it goes perfect with my plans for the car. However, I seriously do not believe that adding 3.27s and converting it to SD, and breaking it in more (out of curiosity, what is considered the "break in" mileage for an '80s SBC? Just wondering) would yield an animal that is going to threaten my Z28.

Stalk? Yes Touch? Too much evidence to the contrary. It'd be cool to hear from someone who's owned an LT1 car, and a later model 350 more like what Drew is talking about, to see what they think.

 

Way back in 1999 I had a buddy I met on here. He lived in the same state and was moving to the same town, so we started talking. His girlfriend at the time wanted a car like his 84 Z28, so she bought this 91 Formula. For most purposes it was his car, with her name on the title. After getting into trouble in the snow, he sent me an email and told me she'd traded it in on a newer Cavalier at my local Ford dealer. I stalked the car for about 3 months, and bought it shortly after the test drive. I didn't really like the late Firebird styling, and didn't want a white Firebird, but after driving an 87 Iroc with a 5.7L TPI for awhile, I was shocked at how much faster the Formula felt. I had to have it.

His Z28 had a problem right when he moved to town, and he traded it on a 94 Z28 that had been sitting on the Chevy dealers lot for a few years. Needless to say he knew both cars well and we ran them more then a few times for fun. I suppose after maybe about 60mph things would have been different, but we ran them up to at least 100mph side by side. It took a cold air intake, under drive pulleys, and a shift modifier programmer deal from B&M before that Z28 could catch the Formula. The race went up to triple digits because he figured he could catch me, eventually. We ran out of road before that happened. He got tired of trying and traded the Z off for something else.

LT1's rev higher, they pull past 4500rpm a lot stronger then a TPI car, but they don't have the low end torque of a TPI car either. Auto vs auto, 350 vs 350, etc a strong 350 TPI can run right next to or ahead of a LT1. The garden variety LT1/auto Z28 (not SS, WS6, etc) isn't a 13 second car in stock form. Are more average 4th gens faster then more average 3rd gens? Yes. But the top of the line thirdgen next to the usual (most common) 4th gen is a lot closer race then most people realize.

Go find the cars and try it yourself. I already have several times and I speak from experience.

 

Never owned and LT1 but have owned an 02 LS1 6 speed. different animal all together.

Power band is stronger over 3500 rpms in the LS1 versue the L98.

Heard the LT1's have a lower better power band than the LS1's but the 92 350 G92/G80 92 Z28 could hold its own in the day with the 3.23 gears.

Fun car and could get up an go.

Basically, car mags either hyped up the 0-60 times/ 1/4 mile times to help sell the cars or they had an average driver or a great driver or a crappy driver.

Shoot about two weeks ago, I went to a Property Owners association meeting (don't live there) to give a presentation on the pavement issues in their subidivision (engineer here). Guy drove up in a new SS camaro and I drove behind him in my 85 Z28.

Gave him compliments on is new SS and did not even notice my camaro. Later inside he was braggin that it had about "four hundred and something hp and he has been pulled over 4 times and it is the fastest car he has ever driven and he has own mustangs, challengers, etc.

Yes they are faster but 90% of all people today don't know crap about their cars or know even how to drive them IMO!!

Oh well, we are car nuts and continue to fight the media perceptions of these cars. Even heard the other day that new corvettes are guzzlers. Crap, they get at least 25 mpg on the highway.

Some People.

 

Well, I'd like to make a few of my own points. This is a good thread too. I like reading what's coming out so far.

For data I've noticed a few things that seemed off when speaking about times/years/engines on the IROC's. For example I read that a 1987 IROC 305 TPI auto with 3:42's ran a better 0-60 and better 1/4 mile time than a 1988 IROC 350 TPI with 2:77's. That makes sense I suppose. I was talking to a guy the other day and he asked me what year my IROC was and I told him it was a 1988 car. He said 1988 was the best year for the IROC but I told him I thought the 1989 was a better year.

I do think the thousands of more common 305's made IROC's look bad. If GM had been really smart they would've done a few things abit different for the 350's. They would've put at least 300hp at the crank from the get-go, 3:27's or better in them mandatory, better air induction system (think a modified TPI) instead of the 305 TPI system on top of the 350, better brakes and a few other small quirks.

But no, GM allowed so many options (which is one good thing about Camaro's in the 3rd Generation cars) which in some ways was fine but then it also hurt the future of the car too. GM put heavy doors on all the IROC's/Z28's, a big cabin area and again, made too many options available.

When I bought my car 2 years ago I did a 1/4 mile run at Gateway to see how it stacked up because I wanted to know where she was at. At the time she had 121,xxx miles, a few mods like CAI, filters, small cam, 2,300 stall converter, 15" rims/rated T street tires, full weight, 2:77 stock gears & a rusty Flowmaster exhaust. It ran 14.0 @ 98mph. I ran against a 1996 Mustang GT and beat it btw. My 0-60 times back then were around 6.5 to 7.1 seconds.

I guess my point is that my car was and still is healthy and a healthy L98 car will and can run low 14's with some basic/mild mods and maybe high 13's.

That was then, this is now and obviously times have changed for me/my car. But back to the thread, I am thinking that the IROC/Z28 3rd Gen's have a rather bad reputation for so many reasons including but not limited to white trash and Slayer CD's, lol. By the way, I have a Slayer song somewhere!

 

It was that way untill "89(IIRC). I guess they did it for fuel economy reasons, but still WHY!??

 

Not in 1988 it wasn't. In 1987 the 350 got the 3:27 performance rear end but in the 1988 for some stupid reason (even if it was for economy, it was a stupid move) they made the 2:77's the main rear end for the 350. Less than 5,000 L98's in 1988 got the 3:27 rear end. Kind of sucks because I had to go find a 3:27 to put into my car when I was looking last year.

 

I agree with this point completely. I honestly wish they would have made all IROCs come standard with the top dog motor (kind of like the 1le) along with the suspension upgrades that they included. I believe then the IROC would have been the ultimate Camaro (or Z28 in later years). Today the IROC gets so little respect because most of them could be equipped with the same motor in that you could get in the sport coupe (or whatever base camaro for whatever year). When I started my search for a 3rd gen I thought an IROC would be cool but the more I researched on this site I didn't see the real advantage over just getting the car I wanted which was a t-top 5 speed, sure if I would have had my choice between a 5 speed t-top IROC and the 92 RS I bought I probably would have gotten the IROC but a t-top 5 speed car is hard to find period at least in my area and in reality there isn't much difference between my car and most IROCs (I'm sure the majority of IROCs were low end V8s and I would think after 25 years shocks and springs would be pretty well wore out). But with a 4th if it says Z28 or SS on the fenders you know that car can shred tires not the case with an IROC. I know this seems kind of pointless but what I am trying to say is I believe the 3rd gens as a whole would have gotten a lot more respect if when they were new the IROCS (or later Z28s) would have been the top dog Camaro available.

 

Getting a little rusty on my 3rd gen history lol, sorry for the mix up

 

Is that just Irocs? My 88 Formula G92 L98 was optioned with the 3.27 rear and factory oil cooler.