Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (9)
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,984
Likes: 37
From: North Central Indiana
Car: 86 IROC
Engine: 383
Transmission: TKO 600
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 IRS
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
The shell is very solid, but it's been sprayed flat black all over. The interior is wasted, and the car needs completely stripped and re-done. The engine/harness/ECM seem OK, we had it running while I put the T5 through its gears. I think Brandon is going to remove the engine and trans and try to sell the shell to someone that needs one. Cutting it up is not the plan at this point.
The swap kit will come with all the other associated pieces such as the starter, cross member, inspection cover, slave cylinder bracket, shifter, pedals, pedal switches, shifter boot, clutch fork, and of course the trans and bellhousing. There is also another very rusty T5 car out there that I'm having Brandon cut the tunnel out of for us. With the least cutting and using the smallest section possible, I think I'm going to actually weld in a real reinforced shifter opening from a real T5 car.
The CFI stroker motor can come later LOL
The swap kit will come with all the other associated pieces such as the starter, cross member, inspection cover, slave cylinder bracket, shifter, pedals, pedal switches, shifter boot, clutch fork, and of course the trans and bellhousing. There is also another very rusty T5 car out there that I'm having Brandon cut the tunnel out of for us. With the least cutting and using the smallest section possible, I think I'm going to actually weld in a real reinforced shifter opening from a real T5 car.
The CFI stroker motor can come later LOL
2011 Norwood Gathering
ThirdGen Firebird Rep
ThirdGen Firebird Rep
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,435
Likes: 4
From: Sarasota FL
Car: 99 WS6 / 00 SS / 11 CTS-V / 13 300
Engine: LS1 / LS1 / LSA / 5.7 Hemi
Transmission: 4L60E / T-56 / 6L80E / W5A80
Axle/Gears: 3.23 / 3.42 Auburn / 3.23 / 2.62
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
How do you guys plan to handle the ECM, especially considering there was no CFI 5 speed? Obviously a custom tune is in order, but who's doing it?
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
The weather here in Chitown has been unbelievably fantastic so far this year. Usually, my 3rd gens are still sleeping this early in the year. But it's been so nice out, I've been driving my '83 Crossfire to work for the past several days. I'm also trying to decide if I want to sell it, so I'm spending more time behind it's wheel during my decision making.
First off, I think all of the money I've invested in the custom exhaust was money well spent. Yeah, if I had it to do over again, maybe I would have waited for a complete N10 system, like I had originally wanted, but whatever. The LU5's L-83 cam has a really nice lope with what I currently have when you're at a stoplight and sounds pretty good with the t-tops off. The functional hood flaps are always entertaining to me when they open and close - I guess I'll never grow up. The CFI may be much maligned, but it does provide good low end torque, even with it's 2.93 gear. It's too bad, GM didn't develop it with an L69 exhaust, manual trans and a 3.42/3.73 gear. It would have been a (relative) rocket.
One thing I noticed, is that on a 3rd gen, you can drive at highway speed with both windows down, without any undue noise, turbulence or most of all, resonance. Try that in a new car and see how many seconds it takes before you roll the windows back up. Plus, you can still rest your arm on the window sill and drive comfortably. You do sit lower than most of the SUV's, crossover's and sedans on the road today. I went through my bank's drive-thru and noticed that my roof was at the same level as the tellers drawer. The teller saw me and said, "hello chazman, didn't see you down there."
3rd gens handle great! You certainly won't have anyone in a modern car on your rear bumper on an on/off ramp if you don't want them there - that is for sure!
If I could change something, I wish I could have a little more power and a little more braking. I find that I have to slightly alter my driving style to compensate for the brakes. And........a T5 would be nice too.
You know, if I didn't have to worry about our winters, I could see myself using this car as a commuter more often. It does suck more gas than a newer car though, with premium at $4.65 per gallon around here, that's something to think about. Too bad I never found the right Iron Duke car to commute in.
First off, I think all of the money I've invested in the custom exhaust was money well spent. Yeah, if I had it to do over again, maybe I would have waited for a complete N10 system, like I had originally wanted, but whatever. The LU5's L-83 cam has a really nice lope with what I currently have when you're at a stoplight and sounds pretty good with the t-tops off. The functional hood flaps are always entertaining to me when they open and close - I guess I'll never grow up. The CFI may be much maligned, but it does provide good low end torque, even with it's 2.93 gear. It's too bad, GM didn't develop it with an L69 exhaust, manual trans and a 3.42/3.73 gear. It would have been a (relative) rocket.
One thing I noticed, is that on a 3rd gen, you can drive at highway speed with both windows down, without any undue noise, turbulence or most of all, resonance. Try that in a new car and see how many seconds it takes before you roll the windows back up. Plus, you can still rest your arm on the window sill and drive comfortably. You do sit lower than most of the SUV's, crossover's and sedans on the road today. I went through my bank's drive-thru and noticed that my roof was at the same level as the tellers drawer. The teller saw me and said, "hello chazman, didn't see you down there."
3rd gens handle great! You certainly won't have anyone in a modern car on your rear bumper on an on/off ramp if you don't want them there - that is for sure!
If I could change something, I wish I could have a little more power and a little more braking. I find that I have to slightly alter my driving style to compensate for the brakes. And........a T5 would be nice too.
You know, if I didn't have to worry about our winters, I could see myself using this car as a commuter more often. It does suck more gas than a newer car though, with premium at $4.65 per gallon around here, that's something to think about. Too bad I never found the right Iron Duke car to commute in.
Replaced the 4 banger with a 1983 crossfire 305, edelbrock tes headers with the 84 style larger front y-pipe, 84-85 3" catback, 3.42 rear end with limited slip, 84 5 speed transmission, 84 vette ecm, functional 83 Z-28 hood. But later added Z-28 rims, springs & sway bars but kept the body stock looking.
I pondered with a H.O. conversion but liked the looks of the dual TBI's and the driveability.
By comparison to a stock 82 CFI trans am which my friend had it could easily beat it.
Do the swap and you won't regret it, always even got around 24 mpg average with that combination
Supreme Member
iTrader: (4)
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,708
Likes: 15
From: NYC
Car: 1982 Recaro TA, 1989 TTA#948
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
I have been running an automatic computer on my manual Mustang 5.0 for years, and it runs fine. On the Ford, the auto computer actually has a more aggressive tune.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (9)
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,984
Likes: 37
From: North Central Indiana
Car: 86 IROC
Engine: 383
Transmission: TKO 600
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 IRS
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
Plan A is to wire the park neutral signal to the ECM permanently together so the ECM always thinks its in park. This is what I typically do on all my other swaps. It always works because as far as I know the ECM only uses the park neutral signal for idle speed adders for AC and cooling fan enable etc. There is no special ignition timing for park vs in gear, it's all based on rpm and engine load. Plan B is to wire the park neutral switch signal for the ECM to the clutch pedal. So when the clutch is in the car thinks it's in park. The issue with that could be idle quality with the clutch out and trans in neutral. Plan C is to get a HAM board and use a later TBI 746 ECM so I can start with a real factory 5spd tune. Plan D is a HAM board and the EBL.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (4)
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,708
Likes: 15
From: NYC
Car: 1982 Recaro TA, 1989 TTA#948
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
There should be a neutral switch on the t5 (at least there is one on a Ford t5) and I wired that into the neutral signal to the ECM that used to go to the neutral switch for the automatic. It helps to have a shop manual with a wiring diagram. I needed to see the schematic and it made it alot easier to figure out what wires to use. This was part of a HO swap into a TBird, so the factory wiring manual made my life a whole lot easier.
The HAM board would be beneficial later on when you swap a bigger engine in. I don't think you will need it now, but it sure would make the car run a whole lot better.
The HAM board would be beneficial later on when you swap a bigger engine in. I don't think you will need it now, but it sure would make the car run a whole lot better.
Plan A is to wire the park neutral signal to the ECM permanently together so the ECM always thinks its in park. This is what I typically do on all my other swaps. It always works because as far as I know the ECM only uses the park neutral signal for idle speed adders for AC and cooling fan enable etc. There is no special ignition timing for park vs in gear, it's all based on rpm and engine load. Plan B is to wire the park neutral switch signal for the ECM to the clutch pedal. So when the clutch is in the car thinks it's in park. The issue with that could be idle quality with the clutch out and trans in neutral. Plan C is to get a HAM board and use a later TBI 746 ECM so I can start with a real factory 5spd tune. Plan D is a HAM board and the EBL.
Last edited by 82tarecaro; Jun 12, 2012 at 08:28 AM.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (9)
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,984
Likes: 37
From: North Central Indiana
Car: 86 IROC
Engine: 383
Transmission: TKO 600
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 IRS
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
If I had a way to open the L83 tune and mix it with the LU5 tune and dump it back in the stock ECM I would. But by the time I go to all that trouble I might as well just put the HAM on the 746 ECM I have laying around(thats already modded to be able to switch chips in and out) and roll with it. Then I could tune it like any other TBI car which I've already got experience doing.
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
I don't really understand how this worked. The L83 is a larger engine with different injectors(i think) with different cylinder heads and cam. I can't see how a stock vette ECM controlled the LU5 that well without any other changes to the tune. It is absoultely critical that this car operates PERFECTLY as if it had came from the factory with a T5. No burps, hiccups, stalling or stumbles will be tolerated.
If I had a way to open the L83 tune and mix it with the LU5 tune and dump it back in the stock ECM I would. But by the time I go to all that trouble I might as well just put the HAM on the 746 ECM I have laying around(thats already modded to be able to switch chips in and out) and roll with it. Then I could tune it like any other TBI car which I've already got experience doing.[/quote]
Just saying it did is all, I had both ecms 83 LU-5 and 84 L83 ... both ran the car fine but the 84 ecm gave the car a much different sound and the car also accelerated much differently.
perhaps the ecm came from a 4+3 vette who knows, but either way it never died with a/c on or coming to a stop.
The only problem smog wise was I chose a older donor engine then the car so it failed in that aspect however it passed the sniffer test with ease.
If I had a way to open the L83 tune and mix it with the LU5 tune and dump it back in the stock ECM I would. But by the time I go to all that trouble I might as well just put the HAM on the 746 ECM I have laying around(thats already modded to be able to switch chips in and out) and roll with it. Then I could tune it like any other TBI car which I've already got experience doing.[/quote]
Just saying it did is all, I had both ecms 83 LU-5 and 84 L83 ... both ran the car fine but the 84 ecm gave the car a much different sound and the car also accelerated much differently.
perhaps the ecm came from a 4+3 vette who knows, but either way it never died with a/c on or coming to a stop.
The only problem smog wise was I chose a older donor engine then the car so it failed in that aspect however it passed the sniffer test with ease.
Last edited by Jeffs82TA; Jun 12, 2012 at 10:04 AM.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (4)
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,708
Likes: 15
From: NYC
Car: 1982 Recaro TA, 1989 TTA#948
Supreme Member
iTrader: (9)
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,984
Likes: 37
From: North Central Indiana
Car: 86 IROC
Engine: 383
Transmission: TKO 600
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 IRS
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 644
From: Chicagoland
Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
I believe that the LU5 and L83 cams are the same.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (4)
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,708
Likes: 15
From: NYC
Car: 1982 Recaro TA, 1989 TTA#948
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
But what is the equivalent of that switch on the t5 setup? Or is there no neutral sensor anywhere?
Supreme Member
iTrader: (9)
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,984
Likes: 37
From: North Central Indiana
Car: 86 IROC
Engine: 383
Transmission: TKO 600
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 IRS
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
Are the injectors the same too Charlie? I'll have to look that up.... Even with the same cam and injectors I'm shocked that the L83 ECM would run an LU5 so nicely. Engine displacement is a large part of the calculation a speed density based ECM uses to determine injector pulsewidth. It's either a miracle or the old CFI ECM has the ability to trim fuel back that far. Or I'm totally wrong about the CFI ECM and it's Alpha-N based or something....
Jeffs82TA, did your fuel mileage suffer at all? Hot or cold starts good or bad?
Jeffs82TA, did your fuel mileage suffer at all? Hot or cold starts good or bad?
Supreme Member
iTrader: (9)
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,984
Likes: 37
From: North Central Indiana
Car: 86 IROC
Engine: 383
Transmission: TKO 600
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 IRS
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 644
From: Chicagoland
Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
Are the injectors the same too Charlie? I'll have to look that up.... Even with the same cam and injectors I'm shocked that the L83 ECM would run an LU5 so nicely. Engine displacement is a large part of the calculation a speed density based ECM uses to determine injector pulsewidth. It's either a miracle or the old CFI ECM has the ability to trim fuel back that far. Or I'm totally wrong about the CFI ECM and it's Alpha-N based or something....
Jeffs82TA, did your fuel mileage suffer at all? Hot or cold starts good or bad?
Jeffs82TA, did your fuel mileage suffer at all? Hot or cold starts good or bad?
2011 Norwood Gathering
ThirdGen Firebird Rep
ThirdGen Firebird Rep
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,435
Likes: 4
From: Sarasota FL
Car: 99 WS6 / 00 SS / 11 CTS-V / 13 300
Engine: LS1 / LS1 / LSA / 5.7 Hemi
Transmission: 4L60E / T-56 / 6L80E / W5A80
Axle/Gears: 3.23 / 3.42 Auburn / 3.23 / 2.62
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
I need to move closer to you two...I'd have too much fun 
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
Are the injectors the same too Charlie? I'll have to look that up.... Even with the same cam and injectors I'm shocked that the L83 ECM would run an LU5 so nicely. Engine displacement is a large part of the calculation a speed density based ECM uses to determine injector pulsewidth. It's either a miracle or the old CFI ECM has the ability to trim fuel back that far. Or I'm totally wrong about the CFI ECM and it's Alpha-N based or something....
Jeffs82TA, did your fuel mileage suffer at all? Hot or cold starts good or bad?
Jeffs82TA, did your fuel mileage suffer at all? Hot or cold starts good or bad?
Another thing I did to it was run L-69 electric fan and kept temps around 205 and noticed it had much crisper exhaust note and didn't have the wet fuel puddling idling issues. When it was kept hotter it sounded more like a TPI engine.
Last edited by Jeffs82TA; Jun 12, 2012 at 12:54 PM.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (9)
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,984
Likes: 37
From: North Central Indiana
Car: 86 IROC
Engine: 383
Transmission: TKO 600
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 IRS
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
After thinking about this and getting more info on your setup I think you may have experienced a perfect balance of innacuracies that equaled out to the correct answer. The ECM thought the engine was larger, but also thought it had larger injectors than it had. Since you had it on a smaller engine with smaller injectors the pulsewidth between the 2 combinations probably ended up being very similar in many conditions. In other words, the ratio of injector size to engine displacement was the same between the 2 combinations resulting in the same pulsewidths in many load conditions, hence the ability for both ECMs to do the job. I'd guess the ignition timing on the L83 was more aggressive, but probably not more than premium fuel could handle on an LU5.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 644
From: Chicagoland
Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
I took it to Minnesota once in -30 temps and it fired right off and cold/warm cycled perfectly. Drove it through Canada one summer and it averaged about 24mpg each fill up. I know for a fact nothing on motor was changed as it came from a wrecked 32k mile 83 Z-28. Injectors and all electronics were LU-5. Car probably really would have been nice with ported intake and better heads but as it was it was a strong running car. The LU-5 never hurt the T-5 whatsoever. It could dip into the 18mpg ramge depending how you drove it but if driven nice it always did good.
Another thing I did to it was run L-69 electric fan and kept temps around 205 and noticed it had much crisper exhaust note and didn't have the wet fuel puddling idling issues. When it was kept hotter it sounded more like a TPI engine.
Another thing I did to it was run L-69 electric fan and kept temps around 205 and noticed it had much crisper exhaust note and didn't have the wet fuel puddling idling issues. When it was kept hotter it sounded more like a TPI engine.
The best mpg mine ever got was about 18 on the way home from Indy in 2008. I currently get about 14-15 mpg in mixed commuter driving.
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
did you have the stock exhaust ?? That probably helped mine be a bit more efficient too. I know the LG-4/LU-5 exhaust keeps those engines choked up.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 644
From: Chicagoland
Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
After thinking about this and getting more info on your setup I think you may have experienced a perfect balance of innacuracies that equaled out to the correct answer. The ECM thought the engine was larger, but also thought it had larger injectors than it had. Since you had it on a smaller engine with smaller injectors the pulsewidth between the 2 combinations probably ended up being very similar in many conditions. In other words, the ratio of injector size to engine displacement was the same between the 2 combinations resulting in the same pulsewidths in many load conditions, hence the ability for both ECMs to do the job. I'd guess the ignition timing on the L83 was more aggressive, but probably not more than premium fuel could handle on an LU5.
When I first got the car it ran terribly. I fiddled with a bunch of different things in order to get more smoothness and performance out of it. I played with the initial timing advance and found that it ran best with some really crazy advance. I think that I actually added another 10-12 degrees of advance to the base factory settings, and it ran much better and never pinged once. This really made me nervous so I backed the timing back afew degrees.
Later, I decided to pull the IACs and see how they looked. They were completely gummed up and stuck in what I think was the full open position. I cleaned and lubed them so they'd operate normally. My idle smoothed dramatically, and when I took it around the block, it pinged like a ****. I dialed back the timing to a more normal advance and it ran great.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 644
From: Chicagoland
Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
At that point, I had the LU5/LG4 exhaust manifolds but with a 3" exhaust. Since then, I've switched to L69 exhaust manifolds (with the same 3" exhaust) and it runs better.
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
I have a 82 vette as well and it responded quite well to increasing the coolant temps over stock so I am wondering if that help fuel atomization and helped eliminate fuel puddling.
I would be interested to see the timing curves and fuel mapping of a L-83 over a LU-5. I think if GM had unchoked the LU-5/L-83 the 5.0 h.o. would have never come to be. I do know the Lg4 and I think the LU5 have max timing set at 32 degrees where the H.O. got 36 degrees due to the knock sensor.
or something like that. I cant remember if I changed esc modules or not. I did this conversion back in about late 84 or so. Believe I was also running a stock TBI pump
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,376
Likes: 7
From: Northern California - Bay Area
Car: 1988 IROC-Z
Engine: L98 - full intake & exhaust boltons
Transmission: Bowtie 700r4, 2400 rpm stall
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 9bolt, 3.45 gears, posi
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
What are the engine specs for the LU5? What are the engine specs for the Corvettes L83? Which engine was produced first?
I am wondering if GM did the same thing to the Cross-fire cars like they did with the TPI cars.
We all know that the TPI system was originally designed for the 305. At that time GM was considering stopping production of the 350.
My understanding (please correct me if I am wrong) was that GM then decided to keep producing the 350. Since both the 305 and 350 are in the same engine family GM stuck the TPI system on the 350. My assumption is this allowed them to offer the 350 to the public while still meeting the emissions and fuel economy standards the government wanted.
Did GM design the Cross-fire system with both the 305 and 350 engines in mind? If they did maybe away to start looking for some performance gains would be to look at what GM did different for the L83 motor compaired to the LU5. I am assuming that the Covettes timing and camshaft specs should be simular to the LU5 just a little bigger. What are the compression ratios and fuel pressures between the LU5 and the L83?
I am wondering if GM did the same thing to the Cross-fire cars like they did with the TPI cars.
We all know that the TPI system was originally designed for the 305. At that time GM was considering stopping production of the 350.
My understanding (please correct me if I am wrong) was that GM then decided to keep producing the 350. Since both the 305 and 350 are in the same engine family GM stuck the TPI system on the 350. My assumption is this allowed them to offer the 350 to the public while still meeting the emissions and fuel economy standards the government wanted.
Did GM design the Cross-fire system with both the 305 and 350 engines in mind? If they did maybe away to start looking for some performance gains would be to look at what GM did different for the L83 motor compaired to the LU5. I am assuming that the Covettes timing and camshaft specs should be simular to the LU5 just a little bigger. What are the compression ratios and fuel pressures between the LU5 and the L83?
Last edited by yaj15; Jun 12, 2012 at 06:49 PM. Reason: grammar
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
After thinking about this and getting more info on your setup I think you may have experienced a perfect balance of innacuracies that equaled out to the correct answer. The ECM thought the engine was larger, but also thought it had larger injectors than it had. Since you had it on a smaller engine with smaller injectors the pulsewidth between the 2 combinations probably ended up being very similar in many conditions. In other words, the ratio of injector size to engine displacement was the same between the 2 combinations resulting in the same pulsewidths in many load conditions, hence the ability for both ECMs to do the job. I'd guess the ignition timing on the L83 was more aggressive, but probably not more than premium fuel could handle on an LU5.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 644
From: Chicagoland
Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
Starting to collect parts for the T5 swap. Got a shift plate and a CORRECT '83 leather shift **** from two members here.
The shift plate was a disappointment. It had sort of an adhesive smeared all over it (like Liquid Nails?) and then painted black to hide it. It wasn't apparent in the pics but was the first thing I noticed when I opened the box. I've been trying to fix it, but in the process of removing whatever was on there, I've altered the finish. If I knew, I would have passed on it. I applied Vaseline and let it sit for afew hours so whatever that stuff was would absorb oil and soften and then I scraped it off with a razor. But you can see where it was in the pic. I'll work on it abit more, but I might just get another one. The leather boot is coming along, though.
The **** is a find though. Note the 2 year only, vertical stitching. It should be easy to restore.
All I need now is an '88 and up, hydraulic clutch, WC T5. The one I thought I had a line on turned out to be a 4.05 1st gear S10 trans. I can get an '83 cable clutch T5 locally, but I'm holding out for a hydraulic WC unit.
The shift plate was a disappointment. It had sort of an adhesive smeared all over it (like Liquid Nails?) and then painted black to hide it. It wasn't apparent in the pics but was the first thing I noticed when I opened the box. I've been trying to fix it, but in the process of removing whatever was on there, I've altered the finish. If I knew, I would have passed on it. I applied Vaseline and let it sit for afew hours so whatever that stuff was would absorb oil and soften and then I scraped it off with a razor. But you can see where it was in the pic. I'll work on it abit more, but I might just get another one. The leather boot is coming along, though.
The **** is a find though. Note the 2 year only, vertical stitching. It should be easy to restore.
All I need now is an '88 and up, hydraulic clutch, WC T5. The one I thought I had a line on turned out to be a 4.05 1st gear S10 trans. I can get an '83 cable clutch T5 locally, but I'm holding out for a hydraulic WC unit.
Last edited by chazman; Jul 2, 2012 at 11:20 PM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 644
From: Chicagoland
Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
Looky what I picked up today.
The original plan was to source a WC V8 T5 with a 2.95 1st gear and a 3.42 posi rear for my '83. Well........that fell through.
But minutes from my house I found this one for a good price. It's a T5 from an '84....erm....Iron Duke. It has some steep gear ratios. 3.76 1st, 2.18 2nd, 1.42 3rd, 1.00 4th and .72 5th. With this T5 I can keep my stock 2.93 posi and get great torque multiplication. I'm not really too concerned about RPM drop off between gears, since the CFI is a low RPM torquer. Plus, the gears are way more tightly packed than the current 700R4 in it. If you crunch the numbers, this trans with my 2.93 rear will multiply as much torque in 1st gear as a V8 T5 with a 3.73 rear.
I just degreased it before these pics. Now to find the rest of the "swap" parts.
The original plan was to source a WC V8 T5 with a 2.95 1st gear and a 3.42 posi rear for my '83. Well........that fell through.
But minutes from my house I found this one for a good price. It's a T5 from an '84....erm....Iron Duke. It has some steep gear ratios. 3.76 1st, 2.18 2nd, 1.42 3rd, 1.00 4th and .72 5th. With this T5 I can keep my stock 2.93 posi and get great torque multiplication. I'm not really too concerned about RPM drop off between gears, since the CFI is a low RPM torquer. Plus, the gears are way more tightly packed than the current 700R4 in it. If you crunch the numbers, this trans with my 2.93 rear will multiply as much torque in 1st gear as a V8 T5 with a 3.73 rear.
I just degreased it before these pics. Now to find the rest of the "swap" parts.
Supreme Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,328
Likes: 10
From: Kitchener, ON
Car: 1988 GTA
Engine: LB9
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
I'm sure you did your research, but are you certain that the input shaft from an Iron Duke T5 is the same as a SBC input shaft?
Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 364
Likes: 2
From: Charlotte NC
Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: The Wicked six'ah
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: stock 3.08's
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
I got one from a 1984 2.8 and the Inputs were diffrent from a 305 T5. so yea I'd check on that. lol
How much did you pay for that t-5? Im considering selling mine, but IDK what its worth as i dont know the mileage on it...
How much did you pay for that t-5? Im considering selling mine, but IDK what its worth as i dont know the mileage on it...
Last edited by HiPerf_Chevyman; Aug 10, 2012 at 02:48 PM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 644
From: Chicagoland
Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
14 spline input vs 26 spline for the V8 T5. It'll fit with a 14 spline clutch. All of the NWC T5s have the same torque rating of around 260 ft lbs.
I got it cheap enough so if it's junk, it'll make an interesting door stop.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (9)
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,984
Likes: 37
From: North Central Indiana
Car: 86 IROC
Engine: 383
Transmission: TKO 600
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 IRS
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
Of course it doesnt, it's not a world class unit and it's got a numerically higher gear ratio in 1st. He's running it on street tires behind a 165hp LU5, it will be fine. I had an identical trans behind my 230hp LB9 and it held up just fine. This really is the ideal swap for a lower powered car with a tall rear gear.
Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 364
Likes: 2
From: Charlotte NC
Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: The Wicked six'ah
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: stock 3.08's
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
oh yup look at all the info coming out of the wood work
Last edited by HiPerf_Chevyman; Aug 10, 2012 at 04:00 PM.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,376
Likes: 7
From: Northern California - Bay Area
Car: 1988 IROC-Z
Engine: L98 - full intake & exhaust boltons
Transmission: Bowtie 700r4, 2400 rpm stall
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 9bolt, 3.45 gears, posi
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
If you keep the same gear ratio that you have now with the lower geared T5 your performance should will be good.
What about the rear? Did your car come with disk brakes?
What about the rear? Did your car come with disk brakes?
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 644
From: Chicagoland
Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
I guess one good thing about being bolted up to an Iron Duke is that theoretically the motor might have been kind to the trans. I suspect that this trans might have been apart sometime, based on the sloppy gasket sealer on the front of it.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 644
From: Chicagoland
Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Supreme Member
iTrader: (9)
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,984
Likes: 37
From: North Central Indiana
Car: 86 IROC
Engine: 383
Transmission: TKO 600
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 IRS
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
I noticed that too. I've got a 3.76 geared T5 from an S10 in the basement at home. Now that you have an F-body box, even if the guts are bad, we can swap tail housings if we need to and convert it to an F-body box. The trans I have worked nicely when pulled as far as I know.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 644
From: Chicagoland
Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
I noticed that too. I've got a 3.76 geared T5 from an S10 in the basement at home. Now that you have an F-body box, even if the guts are bad, we can swap tail housings if we need to and convert it to an F-body box. The trans I have worked nicely when pulled as far as I know.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,376
Likes: 7
From: Northern California - Bay Area
Car: 1988 IROC-Z
Engine: L98 - full intake & exhaust boltons
Transmission: Bowtie 700r4, 2400 rpm stall
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 9bolt, 3.45 gears, posi
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
What is the story with the GM T-5's and their gear ratios?
I have heard that the G92 cars and non-G92 equipped cars with the T-5's had different gear ratios. I looked up the information on this link to see if I could find out what gear ratios went in the T-5 depending upon the options that the car had.
https://www.thirdgen.org/calculations
I've read in some magazine articles that the G92 equipped thirdgens were supposed to have the T-5 with the 2.95 first gear and the 0.73 fifth gear. I'm assuming that these gear ratios would have been paired with 3.42 or 3.45 rear axle gears.
I've also seen some TPI cars that claimed to have the T-5 with the 2.75 first gear and 0.63 fifth gear. I'm guessing this set up would have been paired with 3.08 rear axle gears for cars that were non-G92 spec.
For the T-5 V8 cars the 2nd-4th gears seem to be 1.94, 1.34, 1.00 respectively.
Hopefully I'm writing down the right information on here. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I just didn't know that so many gear ratio combinations were available for the T-5 between the V8 and V6 cars. Sounds like each application that GM used the T-5 in they produced a lot of diffrent gear ratios for each application.
I have heard that the G92 cars and non-G92 equipped cars with the T-5's had different gear ratios. I looked up the information on this link to see if I could find out what gear ratios went in the T-5 depending upon the options that the car had.
https://www.thirdgen.org/calculations
I've read in some magazine articles that the G92 equipped thirdgens were supposed to have the T-5 with the 2.95 first gear and the 0.73 fifth gear. I'm assuming that these gear ratios would have been paired with 3.42 or 3.45 rear axle gears.
I've also seen some TPI cars that claimed to have the T-5 with the 2.75 first gear and 0.63 fifth gear. I'm guessing this set up would have been paired with 3.08 rear axle gears for cars that were non-G92 spec.
For the T-5 V8 cars the 2nd-4th gears seem to be 1.94, 1.34, 1.00 respectively.
Hopefully I'm writing down the right information on here. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I just didn't know that so many gear ratio combinations were available for the T-5 between the V8 and V6 cars. Sounds like each application that GM used the T-5 in they produced a lot of diffrent gear ratios for each application.
Last edited by yaj15; Aug 13, 2012 at 03:45 PM. Reason: information
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 644
From: Chicagoland
Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
The 2.75 1st gear ratio that many places report appears to be bogus. They were all 2.95.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,376
Likes: 7
From: Northern California - Bay Area
Car: 1988 IROC-Z
Engine: L98 - full intake & exhaust boltons
Transmission: Bowtie 700r4, 2400 rpm stall
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 9bolt, 3.45 gears, posi
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 644
From: Chicagoland
Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,376
Likes: 7
From: Northern California - Bay Area
Car: 1988 IROC-Z
Engine: L98 - full intake & exhaust boltons
Transmission: Bowtie 700r4, 2400 rpm stall
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 9bolt, 3.45 gears, posi
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
Thanks for the info. I'm learning a lot about the T-5 on this thread. I've always been more intrested in the 700r4 so I know a lot more about them and making them perform better than the T-5.
Last edited by yaj15; Aug 13, 2012 at 05:50 PM. Reason: text
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 644
From: Chicagoland
Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
I have noticed that the CFI really likes the cooler weather. Or should I say, it really hated the brutal 90-100 degree weather we went through recently. Runs smoother, better throttle response now, the exhaust even sounds different.
I wonder if 100* heat has an effect on the CFI's fuel distribution more than other systems.
I wonder if 100* heat has an effect on the CFI's fuel distribution more than other systems.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,376
Likes: 7
From: Northern California - Bay Area
Car: 1988 IROC-Z
Engine: L98 - full intake & exhaust boltons
Transmission: Bowtie 700r4, 2400 rpm stall
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 9bolt, 3.45 gears, posi
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
Dosen't your car have the flaps that open up on the hood when you accelerate hard? When the flaps are closed where is most of the incoming air coming from?
Even when the air is warmer you would have an advantage with those flaps when they open (in terms of cooler incoming air) because its not heat soaked with warm air from the engine compartment. This the same ram air effect that the TPI camaro cars enjoy with the inlet air coming in behind the fog lights at the front of the car.
I have a neighbor that has an early 80's corvette (I forget the exact year I think its a 1982 model though) but he has the cross-fire 350. The area that I live in is in the central valley in northern California. For the past week it has been 105 - 110 degrees or higher in some locations that are further away from the coast.
When the temps get that hot he said his car was more 'tempermental' than when the ambient air temperature was cooler say less than 75 - 80 degrees. His car would not idle correctly and the power delivery as you accelerated would not be as linear, smooth, or even keeled as when the temperature was lower. We also don't have the humidity issue to deal with like guys in the midwest, east coast or the south during summer time. My neighbors car is an all stock 350 crossfire. The only modification that he has done was install a catback exhaust some time ago.
Some of these engine characteristic issues also may be due to different computer tunning as well. Is there significant difference with respect to hardware and computing power between a cross-fire injected car and a L03 305 TBI car from '88-'92? The cross-fire injection set up contains 2 TBI units on a cross ram style manifold. The later TBI 305 and 350 engines just had 1 single TBI unit on a non-cross-ram style intake manifold.
I know with the TPI cars the ECM was upgraded from the original 1985 setup. I'm wondering if the later single unit TBI 305's and 350's also got upgraded ECM's or PROM's with respect to the earlier cross-fire injected 305 and 350 engines?
Even when the air is warmer you would have an advantage with those flaps when they open (in terms of cooler incoming air) because its not heat soaked with warm air from the engine compartment. This the same ram air effect that the TPI camaro cars enjoy with the inlet air coming in behind the fog lights at the front of the car.
I have a neighbor that has an early 80's corvette (I forget the exact year I think its a 1982 model though) but he has the cross-fire 350. The area that I live in is in the central valley in northern California. For the past week it has been 105 - 110 degrees or higher in some locations that are further away from the coast.
When the temps get that hot he said his car was more 'tempermental' than when the ambient air temperature was cooler say less than 75 - 80 degrees. His car would not idle correctly and the power delivery as you accelerated would not be as linear, smooth, or even keeled as when the temperature was lower. We also don't have the humidity issue to deal with like guys in the midwest, east coast or the south during summer time. My neighbors car is an all stock 350 crossfire. The only modification that he has done was install a catback exhaust some time ago.
Some of these engine characteristic issues also may be due to different computer tunning as well. Is there significant difference with respect to hardware and computing power between a cross-fire injected car and a L03 305 TBI car from '88-'92? The cross-fire injection set up contains 2 TBI units on a cross ram style manifold. The later TBI 305 and 350 engines just had 1 single TBI unit on a non-cross-ram style intake manifold.
I know with the TPI cars the ECM was upgraded from the original 1985 setup. I'm wondering if the later single unit TBI 305's and 350's also got upgraded ECM's or PROM's with respect to the earlier cross-fire injected 305 and 350 engines?
Last edited by yaj15; Aug 14, 2012 at 04:35 PM. Reason: information
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 644
From: Chicagoland
Car: 1989 IROC-Z. Original owner
Engine: LB9. Dual Cats. Big Cam
Transmission: World Class T-5
Axle/Gears: BW 3.45
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
Honestly, the only time my butt dyno can feel afew more horsies, is when those hood flaps open on a really cool evening. On those evenings, the intake sound also pretty well mimics the sound we got when we used to flip our air cleaner lids over back in the day.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,132
Likes: 24
From: Midwest
Car: '82 Recaro T/A, '71 Trans Am
Engine: 305CFI/455HO
Transmission: TH700R4/M22
Axle/Gears: 3.23/3.42
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
When the temps were above 90 degrees last month I was having vapor lock issues with the CFI on my '82 Recaro T/A. The fuel would vaporize between the front and rear throttle bodies making the rear TBI have little or no fuel spray from the injector. A minute or two of cranking the engine would pulse the injector enough to purge the line.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,376
Likes: 7
From: Northern California - Bay Area
Car: 1988 IROC-Z
Engine: L98 - full intake & exhaust boltons
Transmission: Bowtie 700r4, 2400 rpm stall
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 9bolt, 3.45 gears, posi
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
Hmm, thats very intresting. Well ha ha sounds like we have found another topic to dig in to.
When you get your 5-speed trans swapped in let us know how the car runs. For the LB9/T-5 cars I thought they got a different PROM from the factory with respect to LB9/700r4 cars.
With my own car I have the L98/700r4 combination. I haven't noticed a real difference in performance when the weather gets hot. When the weather is cold (around 55 degrees or lower) in the winter time that cold air helps the engine perform better. It's not a big difference but there seems to be a little more power across the rev range and throttle response improved a little.
I've got Hawks Thirdgen ram air TPI boxes and a gutted TPI air lower air filter now. I installed that in the car in June and it improved the breathing from idle to redline. I'm curious to see if there is a performance improvement when the weather starts getting cooler again.
When you get your 5-speed trans swapped in let us know how the car runs. For the LB9/T-5 cars I thought they got a different PROM from the factory with respect to LB9/700r4 cars.
With my own car I have the L98/700r4 combination. I haven't noticed a real difference in performance when the weather gets hot. When the weather is cold (around 55 degrees or lower) in the winter time that cold air helps the engine perform better. It's not a big difference but there seems to be a little more power across the rev range and throttle response improved a little.
I've got Hawks Thirdgen ram air TPI boxes and a gutted TPI air lower air filter now. I installed that in the car in June and it improved the breathing from idle to redline. I'm curious to see if there is a performance improvement when the weather starts getting cooler again.
Last edited by yaj15; Aug 14, 2012 at 11:08 PM. Reason: adding information
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,376
Likes: 7
From: Northern California - Bay Area
Car: 1988 IROC-Z
Engine: L98 - full intake & exhaust boltons
Transmission: Bowtie 700r4, 2400 rpm stall
Axle/Gears: Borg-Warner 9bolt, 3.45 gears, posi
Re: Some observations from commuting in a Crossfire.
This is a video I found for a 1983 Z28 LU5 Cross-Fire for sale. Around time indexes 7:25 & 7:52 in the video the driver gets on the gas hard and you can see the hood flaps open up.
Is it true that GM had a lot of issues with the LU5? In one of the Camaro books that I have I read that LU5's left some owners stranded when they drove in the rain because those flaps let water in to the engine. I thought that flap intake system was sealed to the outside environment so that only air could make its way in to the engine?