balloonfoot

I searched but didn't find the answer. Were any Norwood cars converted to factory convertibles or were they all Van Nuys cars? Van Nuys only makes sense..........

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

During the time that the Norwood plant was in operation the convertibles were being converted by ASC off-site.

Did Norwood cars get converted, yes. Here is a link to one: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/conv...iroc-vert.html

balloonfoot

So GM took a Norwood car and shipped it to California for conversion and then back to this guy? Silly, since they could have just built the car in Van Nuys and shipped it 10 mins away for conversion. Good thing they closed Norwood or we probably wouldn't have many convertibles.

scottmoyer

Some aftermarket businesses set up shop close to the business they support for the term of the contract. If you do some research, you'll find that ASC had operations all over the country, so cars weren't shipped to CA only for modifying.

At one time or another ASC, which is headquartered in Southgate, Michigan, operated plants or design/engineering studios in: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada - Rancho Dominquez (Long Beach), California - Huntington Beach, California – Columbus, Ohio – Lordstown, Ohio - Bowling Green, Kentucky – Detroit, Michigan - Lansing, Michigan - Southgate, Michigan - Owosso, Michigan – Gibraltar, Michigan - Warren, Michigan - Oak Park, Michigan – East Tawas, Michigan - Linden, New Jersey - Bloomington, Illinois - Spartanburg, South Carolina - Atlanta, Georgia -Munich, Germany - Heilbronn, Germany – Weinsberg, Germany - Youngshon, South Korea – Martorell, Spain.

Motown

And if they didn't close Norwood, there would be a lot more thirdgens today with quality original paint jobs.

Anyways, Scott is right. Norwood cars probably didnt go far for the conversion.

balloonfoot

I have a good friend who worked as an engineer on the C4 Corvette program. He then went with Toyota and moved to SoCal. We went together over to ASC (they were doing the early Celica convertibles as well). The reason I asked is because I was told at the time that only the Dominquez facility did the Camaros. Couldn't have been too many '87 Norwood converts, one year only and then Van Nuys made them as well in 87......do you know the numbers?

scottmoyer

Well, let's just say that I recently started documenting 87 "factory" verts and on my list of 19 cars, 18 came from Norwood. Does that say anything?

balloonfoot

Great numbers, certainly says that were built at both plants, thanks.....wonder where the were made into converts....I would like to know for a fact if they were not built in California.....seems those Norwood cars spent a lot of time sitting (or being shipped all over the place)....since the previous post says his car was "in staging" in Michigan.

I'm only thinking it would have been silly for ASC to set up a facility to build converts near Norwood knowing the plant was closing at the end of the 87 model year run. That's why I think all converts were built at Dominquez.....any fact to the contrary?

scottmoyer

GM would not ship cars across the country to be converted. That would drive the cost of the vehicle up even more. As you know, businesses don't eat losses, they pass them on to the consumer. There were other GM contracts in place with ASC for Sunbirds, Cavaliers, Cadillacs, Buick GNXs, etc. So having a plant close to where the cars were built only makes sense.

balloonfoot

I totally agree......is there anyway to know where a car was converted (so we aren't just being logical)?

scottmoyer

There probably isn't a sticker on the car with the exact ASC location the conversion was done. However, like I stated, they were shipped to a location near the assembly plant, so in this case, ASC had operations in Lordstown, OH which is about 200 miles away and they had a site in Columbus, about 100 miles away.

ASC isn't some small business. They have been building custom cars for many years. Here's just a few:
Mustang II with ttops and moonroof
Dodge Magnum/Chrysler Cordoba TTOPs
1981 Buick Regal Pace Cars
1982 Buick Riviera vert
Early Sunbirds/Cavaliers and Cadillac Eldorado verts
Saab 900 vert
Toyota Celica verts
Mustang/Capri McLaren
all 80s Chrysler verts
Corvette verts
Buick GNX
1988 Pontiac Turbo Grand Prix
F-bodies
Dodge Dakota verts
4th gen Pontiac Trans Am Ram Air WS6
Porsche 944S2 verts
Syclone/Typhoon
and many more.....

balloonfoot

Scott.....I am familiar with ASC's operation. I am brand new here and I didn't intend to get off on the wrong foot with you from the get go. I was just curious if any documentation exists indicating where the cars were actually converted....no guesses. Obviously, once Norwoood closed, all conversions were done down the road from Van Nuys at Dominquez, like the fellow I talked with indicated.

I am a Corvette guy, a writer (hence the need for actual facts) and an incurable car nut. I owned a 90 IROC convert and foolishly sold it. I just recently purchased an 89 IROC convert, LB9 5 speed, and it has rekindled my interest in IROC history. I probably have more questions than you have patience for.....90 IROC pictured...no pics yet of new '89...

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

GM didn't keep records on combinations like that for any Thirdgen, so there is no way there will be an accurate number as far as how many convertibles were converted from the Norwood plant.

NCGuy68

Very good Info Scott - thanks for posting.

I'am mainly a 'Camaro Guy' and am a little weak on the Birds even though I drag raced my sister's brand new 1969 Bird one weekend while she was out of town..LOL...but thats another story.

So I ask: Why did GM pick ASC to do all of the Bird conversions? ASC is based in San Diego not too far from the then Van Nuys final assembly plant. Was the close proximity the reason so the engineers from both companys could easily move back and forth? Or................?.........?

Everyone, please feel free to chime in if you have accurate information.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Sunbird or Firebird?

scottmoyer

Balloonfoot, you're not starting off on the wrong foot. I'm stating what you called "logical". In post #8, you stated:

My response was to affirm that ASC didn't build a facility near Norwood for one year. They already had the facility somewhere close by since they built other conversions for GM, Ford and others. Since you also stated that a previous poster said the car was in staging in Michigan, then my assumption that Lordstown or Columbus did the conversion was incorrect and maybe one of the MI locations did the conversions. As I mentioned earlier, I do not think there is a sticker on the car that states which facility converted the car, but since I don't have a 'vert, I could be wrong on that also.

This is the place to go for questions. If you have questions, ask. Somebody will hopefully answer the question correctly and since you asked, with documented proof. The thirdgen car was a very popular car, but there is a lot we don't know about it.

balloonfoot

Right again....as I recall (since I don't have the car right here to look at) the ASC sticker on the door jamb does not say in what facility it was converted.

The thirdgen has passed down the road from being a "bus boy's car" (my wife has always called them that....one step before going to pick-a-part). I don't know what its like where you live, but out here they have disappeared from the road.....never see them...in any condition.

I have always been into Corvettes and find it shocking that for a thirdgen car that was made in numbers 3 times that of a Corvette for any given year....so little is known. People say that GM saved no info on earlier Corvettes either....but things get discovered. Corvette restorers are **** in the extreme, so I guess they can be pretty **** when researching as well.

Hope to help that discovery along a bit now that I once again own a thirdgen convertible. As example, hard to believe that ASC doesn't have a list of VIN numbers on cars they converted....off invoices or whatever. Perhaps someone will "discover" this stuff.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

The Corvette is GM's baby, they kept much better records and people held onto the stuff. Not so much with the F-bodies.

NCGuy68

You're right AmorgetRS...! I completly forgot about the Sunbird, my mistake.

The Sunbird was the most pathetic offering by GM divison 'Poncho". About as poor as the Chevy Vega and it don't get much worse then that.

When I say "Bird", I'am refering to the once Powerful, Proud GM section that brought us the 1967-68 Firebirds and later, the SLP FireHawks.

As a side note: I'd love to get my hands on a 1967 400 Firebird or a 1969 Trans-Am Drop-Top.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

I am confused.... which ASC Firebird are you talking about then?

okfoz

American Sunroof Company
name changed to ASC in 1982
ASC - American Specialty Cars
ASC - American Sunroof Company

Are kinda the same company. http://www.ascglobal.com/html/about%...0Services.html

ASC/McLaren - not the same company, but a joint effort between the two.
I was told that this interior was designed and made by Ron Matta (He actually made my interior for my car) when he worked at Triad, for the ASC/Mclaren joint ventures.

Triad - Another offshoot of ASC, not sure how they were related, but I know the original designer of the ASC/McLaren Capri interior...


The list of cars that ASC converted: (an addendum to Scott's list) List was as of 2005
CY Customer Model ASC Contribution
1982-1985 General Motors Buick Riviera System supply
1983-1999 General Motors Chevrolet Cavalier System supply
1983-1997 General Motors Pontiac Sunbird/Sunfire System supply
1984-1990 Ford ASC/McLaren Mustang System supply
1984-1985 General Motors Cadillac Eldorado System supply
1984-1985 Toyota Celica Full conversion
1985-1987 American Motors Renault Alliance GTA System supply
1986-1994 General Motors Chevrolet Corvette System supply
1986-1994 Saab Saab 900 Turbo System supply
1987-1992 General Motors Chevrolet Camaro Full Conversion
1993-2002 General Motors Chevrolet Camaro System supply
1987-1989 Toyota Celica Full conversion
1989-1990 DaimlerChrysler Dodge Dakota System supply
1989-1992 General Motors Pontiac Firebird Full Conversion
1993-2002 General Motors Pontiac Firebird System supply
1989-1991 Porsche 944 S2 System supply
1990-1991 General Motors Buick Reatta System supply
1991-1993 Toyota Celica Full conversion
1991-1992 Infiniti M30 System supply
1991-1994 Rover Metro System supply
1990-1993 DaimlerChrysler Dodge Shadow System supply
1992-1995 Porsche 968 System supply
1992-1994 Nissan 240SX System supply
1993-1996 Nissan 300ZX System supply
1995-1997 Mitsubishi 3000GT System supply
1995-1999 Toyota Celica Full conversion
1996-2000 Mitsubishi Eclipse System supply
1997-2002 BMW Z3 System supply
1997-2000 Toyota Paseo/Cynos Full conversion
2000-2003 Toyota Solara Dual-stage manufacturing
2002-2004 BMW Z4 System supply
2003-Present General Motors Chevrolet SSR System supply
2004-Present Toyota Solara System supply
2004-Present Hot Rods & Horsepower Dearborn Deuce Convertible System supply/body assembly
2006 Coming Soon Mitsubishi Eclipse System supply


The fact is ASC had a production facility in both MI and CA. I know for sure that the Firebirds were done in MI, and if I recall theBman worked there and he said they made the Firebirds and Camaros on the same line, whether they were a "Factory" job or a "Dealer" job.

Although this is speculation on my behalf, talking to and reading posts from people that worked there or visited the facilities, ASC converted cars in both CA and MI. The Firebirds were done in MI, at least from 1986-1989 As the dealer would have them drop shipped to ASC's dealership in Lavonia, MI, and onverted in Southfiled, MI. The Camaros were obviously done in CA, and I believe that some may have been shipped to MI, as I have been told that ASC did the factory and aftermarket conversions on the same line at the same time. It was all about logistics, and cost. It was less expensive to have an RPO for the conversion than to have the dealer drop ship them, and there was logistical benefits to having an RPO here is why.

If you see some factory lot pictures and the cars have what appears to be fiberglass hatches and T-tops, these cars were destined to be converted into convertibles at ASC. The Dealer conversion cars had to be ordered in a certain way, IE no rear defog, and had to have the hatch release option. For a Dealer conversion ASC would remove the headliner, hatch, T-tops, sail panel pieces and other interior pieces not needed after the conversion. With an RPO to denote this conversion, money was saved on T-tops, hatches, headliners, interior trim pieces that would be either discarded or later sold by ASC, or possibly some pieces may have been shipped to the dealer if requested.


ASC - Automotive Styling Centre Ltd. Totally unrelated company AFAIK.

John

balloonfoot

Just to try to be brief here....as I understand it, only the 91-92 model year Firebirds were "factory cars" with a '3' in the VIN.....correct? Therefore all Firebird conversions prior to that were dealer conversions and had to be shipped to MI from CA after 1987 model year?

I'm just trying to talk about cars with a '3' VIN number. The dealer conversions could have been done anywhere (and it seems in Michigan even though the car was built in Van Nuys).

Lets just talk "factory cars".

NCGuy68

I didn't mention any ASC Firebird in my post.

You did mention the Sunbird in regards to my saying 'Bird'. And when I say 'Bird', I mean Firebird as produced by the now defunct GM division.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Then what the heck are you asking in the bolded section of the first quote?

CPC Norwood

Norwood cars were shipped to Masco Cars and Concepts located in Brighton MI for conversion.

balloonfoot

OK....allow me to summerize so I can grasp this better....

1987 'factory convertible' Camaros...with a '3' in the VIN....were converted at C&C in Michigan if they were built at Norwood and at Dominquez if they were built at Van Nuys. Correct? Door jamb sticker says what on these Norwood cars?

All factory Camaro convertibles starting with the 1988 model year thru 1992 and factory Firebird convertibles 91-92 (Van Nuys built with '3' VIN) were converted at Dominquez.

All cars (Camaros and Firebirds) that were built in the after market (no '3' in the VIN)...by dealers or whomever...could have been converted at a number of locations. This would include the short run of 89 GTA convertibles.

Funny thing about some of the previous posts.....shipping was costly yet it seems Firebirds were built in California and shipped to Michigan for dealer ordered conversions?

I hate all these educated guesses....I won't be happy until this is somehow nailed down.....

CPC Norwood

Sorry but I do not have the time to investigate the matter in the level of detail you are requesting.

To answer the original question I simply picked up the phone and asked the Plant manager of Norwood assembly in 1987 about the conversion vendor and the question was answered promptly- with a clear discription of the MASCO rep who spoke in a heavy German accent when he visited Norwood.

Oh by the way I am still seeking third generation owners who have a desire to learn details like this- and more at the Norwood Gathering coming up in August. I would bump that topic but that might be a bit self serving..you guys know all the details anyway.

Best of luck on your quest!

NCGuy68

I asked if anyone knows why GM picked ASC to do the Bird conversions - or I should say Firebird conversions. Just a simple question.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

They were doing the Camaro conversions... why wouldn't they do the Firebird conversions?

scottmoyer

Can you guys take the argument in PMs? It's cluttering the thread with nonsense.

okfoz

C&C was in Brighton MI, they did the Mustang convertibles as well as the Beretta convertible concept and the Olds Cutlass Convertibles in the 90's. ASC did all of their convertibles at their facilities, I have never heard or seen anything to the contrary.


I am honestly not sure, from what I was told some were done in CA, others in MI both by ASC.


Why is this so important?

balloonfoot

Well, I have been involved with Corvettes for many years. It is very true that the more time goes by, the more difficult it is to nail down facts....records are lost, people with first hand knowledge die..... You might not care about this, but in another 20 years when more people have something other than a 'gee wiz' interest in these thirdgen cars.....everyone will be glad that this was written down.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

My '87 is a Norwood convertible.