five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I resemble that remark!

Actually, I understand why you might want to go carb on a race-only engine. For multi-purpose, though, especially a DD, it just makes more sense to me to stick with EFI. For one thing, it fits under a stock hood.

cam-

Get tuning software and dont look back on EFI

Heres a thread of interest concerning carbs on LS1's

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/genera...llustrate.html

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Ok... I'm back from vacation. On with the show!

I'm not. Wiseco is sending me a new set. They're also sending me a few compression rings, since I chipped the coating on the edge of a couple.

I've never used a FAST, but I've heard too many people complain about them sticking, though I think that's with the older ones. Either way, nobody has anything bad to say about the NW throttle bodies, so when I had the chance to snag a new one on the classifieds, I jumped on it.

I bought it off the classifieds for about $300. I think Texas Speed sells them new for $350.

I suspect that I'll be somewhere between 500 and 550 RWHP with this setup. The guy that I'm probably going to have do my tune said that he expects it to do 500RWHP on his mustang dyno, which is a pretty conservative dyno compared to other brands. I may be leaving a few horsepower on the table, because I'm probably going to select a cam that pulls the torque curve (and horsepower peak) down to a lower rpm. The cam is probably one of the last things I'll choose.

Not likely. I've not seen promising dyno numbers from those who have. Most seem to wind up losing power.

As for carb vs. efi, I can appreciate the benefits of both. From a power standpoint, all the carb cars I see are capable of higher peak horsepower numbers, but they don't generate the low rpm torque. This isn't an issue of the carb itself, but more the intake tract. Those spider intakes have a very different runner profile than an EFI intake, and they're designed for different rpm bands. The LS3 heads seem to be REAL lazy at lower rpm with a high-rise single plane carb intake compared to the stock intake.

From a tuning side, I would definitely agree that the carb is easier & cheaper. Sure, you can tune the EFI yourself, but without a dyno to statically load the car while you fill in your VE and/or MAF tables, you're basically running blind. I've done my share of chip burning for my TPI cars, and frankly, I'm not good at it. This one is going onto a dyno to be tuned.

Anyway, on with the update. Because of my vacation last week, I've done very little. Last night I pulled out one of the LS3 heads to try and get started with the valve spring replacement. The spring compression tool I have is an ancient piece of crap that my dad had. I figured I'd give it a try.

Here's a pic of it next to the head:


Unfortunately, it kept wanting to slip. The pad would slide on the valve, and the cupped part would keep slipping off the valve spring retainer. It's just too flimsy and clumsy to do the job.

So, I started designing up a new tool for the job:


Unfortunately, the cardboard doesn't seem to be strong enough. Friday I'll make one up out of 1/4" steel. I've seen other people use the same type of tool online and it seems to work well. The only difference with mine is that it's got that angle to it so that the tool sits flush on the valve spring retainer instead of at an angle. I figured I can cut most of the way through the 1/4" plate, bend it, then weld the cut solid.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

a vise and a properly calibrated BFH will bend 1/4" plate without a problem

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Yeah. Whether or not the bench that the vice is bolted to will survive is another story.

cam-

Yeah I've read conflicting info on this too. So far i havent seen one thread with back to back tests showing gains ASIDE from porters who make grand claims. Just like bolting an airfoil on your TPI will add 20 whp right?


Ummm yeah mines staying stock too... For now at least until i see independent dyno proof

89ROC-Z

iTrader: (7)

Hey Jim good build you got going on. Think i'll follow you with the heads and intake instead of 317s

BTW, PLEASE don't use that rocker type of spring compressor. HAd a buddy do that to his patriots and he busted the rocker bolt off.

cam-

tool works great BUT dont use the rocker bolts your just asking for trouble. Buy some hardened all threaded rod and some nuts and replace the rod once per cyl head and you'll be fine. Dont blame the tool

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

This is exactly what I intend to do... thread a stud in and tighten with a nut. With a rod threaded all the way down, I don't see how this type of tool could exert any more force on the rocker mount than a rocker would, in fact, the majority of the force would be vertical in nature, where with a rocker, there's a lot of horizontal/angular force.

cam-

Yup. The Larry's tool works beautifully its butter smooth and easy to use. The only ones that are dangerous are the dual spring compressors with one bolt. With high pressure valve springs they have been known to pull the threads out of the head but only the dual compressor. The single spring tool like your mock up works great

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Seems there's a lot of people making these. Here's an image of the "Tim's" tool:


Essentially the same as what I'm doing, except that I want to angle mine so that it contacts the valve spring retainer more solidly.

For those who aren't sure how this would work, here's a pic of it installed:

cam-

LOL Ya theres LOTS of guys making theses. Larry was the first guy over at tech and posted specs on how to make it and I came to know it as Larry's tool. This was a while back though

89ROC-Z

iTrader: (7)

yep he used the stock rocker bolt lol. Thanks for the incite guys

BlueMagicSS

Love the build!!! Keep the updates coming!!

Matt

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I forgot to yank the pics off my camera, but I built the valve spring tool on Friday. It's similar to what i Posted above, except that it's angled like my cardboard template, and it uses a 3/4" hole instead of the slotted groove for the valve spring. This way it will push down on the whole thing evenly instead of just on the sides. Unfortunately, the bolt I bought was too short, and I haven't had time to get another one yet, so I still haven't gotten a chance to use it. Hopefully I can run out and get the bolt at lunch time today. That way I can get going on swapping my valve springs while I keep waiting for my replacement piston rings to get here.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Update:

Here are the pics of the valve spring tool. I started with a flat piece of 1/4" steel out of dad's pile o' scraps and marked my spots:


I drilled the smaller holes, and then bent the piece. I wanted to do the bend before drilling the big hole so that it didn't try to bend at the hole:


Big hole drilled with a 3/4" drill bit:


Tool installed. The 3/4" hole was radiused slightly on the backside and sits snugly over the valve spring keeper:


Another pic. See what's missing? A goddamned bolt. Nobody within 30 miles of me has a long enough metric bolt. Rather than just use a bolt to tighten it, I want to thread the bolt all the way into the rocker arm mount and use a nut to tighten it. I had to order a long enough bolt... won't be here until friday. :banghead:


So, now that the motor and the heads are both sitting there with nothing going on, I decided to work on my motor mounts. I bought a used set of clam shells and a new set of poly inserts. I don't have any pics of the separation, but it's basically a job of drilling/grinding out the rivets and separating them.

Here's a pic of them after they were separated:


They look a little rusty, but they're actually in good shape. My wire wheel cleaned them up nicely:


I probably should have sandblasted them, but in all honesty, you'll NEVER see these once the motor is in, and even like this they should stay looking good longer than the rest of the car will. Here's a pic of one of them after I applied a couple coats of self-etching primer:


I think these are going to turn into a little experiment. Rather than just paint them as-is, I'm going to apply a few coats of high-build primer to see how well I can get the texture out of the metal. This will be a good exercise to see if it's worth the effort to do it on the k-member.

If those rings don't show up soon, I may just move on to pre-assembly so that I can start measuring all of my bearing gaps. I've got to blow the motor apart after I do that anyway, so I can just do the rings then.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

What are you doing with the old 918 springs?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Honestly, I'm not sure yet. Initially I planned to sell them, but for what little I can get for them, I may just hold on to them. If I wind up with a late model truck in the near future (which I am shopping for), those may be very useful if I wind up modding it.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Minor update. I STILL don't have the right bolt for my valve spring tool, so the heads are still just sitting there. I STILL don't have my replacement rings, so the block is still just sitting there.

So I continued to screw with motor mounts. After a couple coats of the high build primer, I gave them a sanding and then hit them with Extreme Chassis Black. Overall the high build primer did a good job of filling in the metal texture on the larger surfaces, but wasn't enough to fill in the rougher texture on the bolt flanges where the rust had created more pitting. On areas of the k-member that exhibit that level of pitting, I think it'll be necessary to use a skim coat of filler or putty to smooth it out.

But anyway, after painting them, this is what they looked like:


I put them together with new Grade 5 hardware instead of the cheap junk that came with the poly mounts:


I kept staring at them, thinking that those bolts stick out like a sore thumb, so I went out and bought Grade 8 hardware so that the color would match the steel parts of the poly inserts. It's hard to tell in the pic, but they look much better... not that it matters, you'll never see these once they're installed:


My LS2 timing chain and gears also came in:

stoning_volcom

sweet build jim keep up the good work man looks sweet, i cant wait to see the motor in there woot woot!

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Yay. Yesterday I finally got my bolt for the valve spring tool and my new rings came in.

So, I filed 4 new compression rings, only to discover that no matter how carefully I file them, some of the moly still flakes off. Screw it... they go in as-is.

Then came the oil rings... Wiseco sent me a whole new set because the first set seemed to show a very erratic gap spacing... anywhere from 13 thousands all the way to 38 thousands.

So this new set seems to be much more consistent so far... at 40 thousands. Isn't that awful wide, even for an oil ring? I'll have to call Wiseco today and see what they say.

And lastly, I tried my valve spring tool and it works like a champ. My only issue now is that I haven't yet figured out how to get the valve seals off, and according to my book, installing aftermarket spring perches requires some sort of special tool, so I need to start learning about that...

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Just got off the phone with Wiseco... they say 40 thousands gap is perfectly acceptable on oil rings.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Use pliers to twist the oil seals off and a deepwell socket to hammer them on. Do NOT reuse seals

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Well, technically these ARE new seals (brand new heads), but regardless, I can't use them because the integrated spring seats will cause the inner spring to go into coil bind, which would be bad. I've got to run the ones that came with the patriot springs.

Thanks for the info on the seal installation. Seems that most guys just use the socket as you said... I got nervous because my assembly book rambled on about specific spacing/alignment, special tools, etc. I don't see how alignment can be an issue since these are a friction fit onto the valve guides, so it's not like they can go on wrong.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I didn't get a chance to upload my pics yet, but last night I measured my installed spring height, and got a bit of a surprise. Patriot specifies an installed height of 1.8" with their Xtreme Gold springs. When I measured my height, I measured between 1.87 and 1.88". I called Patriot and they sounded surprised... they didn't seem to recall running into any that measured that differently. I need to order a set of shims, but what I need to find out now, is just how close do I need to get to the 1.8 height? Shims only come in .060, .030 and .015 heights. I can stack a .060 and a .015 to get within a couple thousands of 1.8, but I don't think I'm going to be able to get it exact. I also need to see if having the spring perch jacked up that much higher is going to cause interference with the valve seals. Never a dull moment.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

My inexperience is really starting to show it's ugly colors here with my valve spring installation.

Up above I mentioned that my installed height seemed to be way too tall. I had assumed based on how the valve spring tool was made that the spring retainer was to sit down in the pocket of the tool, and that's how I based my measurements. This was my first measurement with the tool installed with the Patriot seat & retainer:


You can see that the tool shows approximately a 1.778" installed height. Because the retainer barely fit onto the tool, I didn't think this was right. I threw the stock retainer in, and got this:


I assumed that this was how things were supposed to sit, so I modified the tool so that the larger Patriot retainer would fit down in the hole. This is how I measured the value I posted in my previous post:


After second guessing the whole ordeal, I borrowed my father's calipers and performed a couple reality checks. First was to measure the Proform tool with the calipers:

You can see here, that at a 1.8" height on the tool, the calipers confirm that it's pretty close, but it's based on the total height of the tool, not the pocket in which I assumed the retainer was supposed to sit.

So, I took a rough measurement of that pocket depth by finding a couple washers that sat at about the same height. It's rudamentary, but it should get me in the ball park:

I measured approximately .145" in height with this particular washer stack, which seemed to sit very flush with the height of the tool.

So, I subtract my measured height of 1.878 by the .146" washer height and arrive at 1.732" height, which is different than my first pic shows at 1.775".

So, as a reality check, I grabbed a nut & bolt, and set them up between the seat and the retainer as shown:


Then I measured it with the calipers:

This height measured at 1.734" - very close to the calculated height of 1.732"

So, I have one measured height of 1.775", and 2 at 1.73x". That's a big discrepancy, but BOTH are well below the 1.8" that it's supposed to be. I might be able to get away with the 1.775", but the 1.73 is going to put me dangerously close to coil bind with my cam lift of around .625".

The first thing I need to do is find a way to actually take an ACCURATE measurement, but I'm guessing that it's going to fall in the 1.73x" range, which leaves me baffled as to what I should do next...

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Just got off the phone with Patriot. Based on my installed height of 1.735, they agree that the springs will go into coil bind (or at least come dangerously close) with a cam in the .625 range like I intend to run.

At least they've got a good return policy.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I saw that Falconiroc had his spreadsheet posted in google for all to see, and I thought that was a great idea, so I did the same. Mine is a work in progress and I doubt that I'll keep the online version up to date, but it does have a ton of information, including part numbers that could be very helpful to people, so I posted it.

Here's the link:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...CMWage0K#gid=0

Keep in mind that the "Cost" column isn't necessarily what the items cost me, but what their retail cost or typical cost is. I deleted the tab with all of my personal expenses on this public version.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

It would appear that I've finally managed to take some consistent measurements of my valve spring height. I've measured 2 different ways with consistent results.

I bought a washer that was large enough to sit over my valve spring micrometer so that I could try to attain accurate measurements with that. My results were about 1.750 height on the intake valve, and (I'm going from memory here), about 1.730 on the exhaust valve.

Using the washer under the retainer, I also measured the height with the back side of my vernier calipers and was within ~2 thousands of my measurements made with the valve spring micrometer & washer. This gives me the confidence that the micrometer & washer combo is accurate.

It also means that the Patriot springs are officially going back.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

wow

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

?

Wow, as in "wow, you're a hack", or as in, "wow, it's a shame that Patriot apparently neglected to realize that their thicker spring seats account for a less-than-advertised install height and is likely the reason why everybody bitches that the springs only last 20k miles"?

Falconiroc

Yup, I figured that if I learned anything about this project, that it might be helpful to anyone else doing it. My prices are similar to what yours are, those are retail prices, unless I acquire them from some other place. I try to keep it updated, but Its being completely redone as I've drastically changed the scope of the project. I was going to just get the beast on the road as budget as I could, but that has changed.

I am now going to build the whole car up and build a monster engine using an GM LSX block and built T-56 backed up by a ford 9" or 12 bolt. I just started redoing it so it should be up to date in a few days here.


I'm excited to see things progressing in your build, I hope that the valve springs issue gets straightened out soon!

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Me too. I'm calling Summit today to get the ball rolling on returning these springs, and I'm probably going to try the PRC EHT springs, although I'm going to call the Texas Speed folks and talk to them about this first. So far the only springs I've found that actually install at a taller height are the $600 Comp 921 springs.

But maybe I'll luck out and the PRCs actually install at their advertised height.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

wow as in "i hate that for you man", lol. that's insanity man. i bought prc stage 2.5 ls6 heads already assembled so i've not gone through all the measuring. this certainly does expalin the quality control issues of the patriot springs.

i have the prc springs, but not as much lift as you have. .595"/.609". when i do a cam swap i'll be sure to look at all the things your doing though as to not run into isues.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I don't know if this is a 'quality control' issue with the patriot springs so much as a "misleading specification" issue. As far as I know, these are very good springs and are a very consistent spring. The issue is in their advertised lift and their advertised install height. Their advertised install height does not seem to take the thickness of their spring seat into consideration. The thicker spring seat appears not to be compensated for by the installed height of the retainer. This lower install height obviously also results in a lower total lift capability.

Maybe these install at 1.8 on other LS heads, but they sure don't seem to on LS3 heads. For fun, I'm going to re-measure the installed height of the stock LS3 springs, and then measure both the Patriots and the stock LS3 spring heights all the way down to the aluminum in order to take the spring seat out of the equation. My guess is that the Patriot retainers are at the same height as the stock LS3 retainers and that this whole issue is due to the thickness of the Patriot seat.

Maybe I'll pop a spring off my 317s and see what height I get from the Patriots on that head.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Ok, last night I did some more measurement taking. I had previously measured the height of the Patriot valve seat and found that it's .064". The stock valve seat height is .044", a difference of .020. That alone doesn't account for the spring height issues.

I threw a stock retainer on and measured it with no seat... 1.825". Subtract the seat height and that gives you a spring height of 1.781".

For the hell of it I grabbed my other head. I measured a Patriot installed height on the 2nd head and came up with 1.753", which is within a couple thousands of the first head.

Let's hope that these PRCs fix my problems.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Woah! Progress!

Yesterday my PRC EHT springs arrived from Texas Speed. These springs have a claimed maximum lift of .675".

I measured installed height on an intake and exhaust valve on each head. The lowest of the 4 measured was a 1.784" installed height.

1.784 - 1.060 coil bind height - .050 safety margin = ....... .674".

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

good deal! i know you'll be happy with PRC's products!

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Last night I pulled all of the factory springs off the heads and measured my installed heights. My lowest measurement was 1.780", the highest was 1.791".

Pics:
one of the heads dis-assembled:


Close-up of the combustion chamber. I'm thinking about taking a file to the casting junk around the spark plug hole, but with my luck I'll wind up nicking a valve seat:


Top of the head:


Valvetrain:


And finally, my valve spring micrometer along with the washer that prevents the retainers from sinking into the micrometer.


One issue that I need to solve is that my valve spring tool is binding to some extent. It's resulting in thread shavings coming off the bolt. I need to find a way to fix that problem before I re-assemble.

96LT4c4

I bought one of those tools from summit and ran into the same thing when I built my 383 LT4 with Pac racing Beehive springs. I put washers on top of the tool. Ran it up tight then looked at the reading on the side of the tool. Turned it back down to get it back apart, then ran it up to where it was on the head then measured the whole thing with a set of calipers. Worked fine, I just did every valve a couple times to make sure it was right.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Update:

I took this past week off from work in order to wire my garage for my compressor and an oven (powercoating). I also dedicated Wednesday and Thursday to blueprinting my engine. As usual, I didn't make near as much progress as I wanted to, but I did make a very important discovery.

I layed the crank in and put plastigauge on all of the mains. Torqued them down, and when I pulled them up, everything measured between .0015 and .002", right where I wanted it.






I reinstalled the crank (oiled this time) and checked my runout and endplay. Runout was fine.



As for the endplay... I only had .002", which was too tight for my liking. I called Callies and they said that with their forged cranks, they want .005 to .007. So, I pulled the main caps back off, and repeated the procedure for torquing the mains and setting the thrust bearing... same results. I pulled the #3 cap off and with the cap off I had .006" of endplay... exactly what I wanted. I pulled everything back apart and started measuring things. I discovered that the lower half of the thrust bearing measured at 1.030" and the upper measured at 1.26". I measured the corresponding crank surface and measured 1.032"... everything matched what I discovered with the endplay measurements with the cap on & off. So... it turns out that my thrust bearing is inconsistent by .004" between the upper & lower, and that was the cause of my endplay issue. I called Texas Speed and they mic'd a bearing for me that had a 1.026" upper and lower and put in the mail for me.



Pic of the .006" endplay with the cap removed:


Beyond that, I popped the rod caps off the rods, and attached the rods to the pistons. Now everything sits until I get time to blueprint the rod bearings and block clearance.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Pics added

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

coming along nicely i see! i hope this thing lasts forever for you as closely as you're paying attention to detail! i had mine gone through by Proline after i tore mine up trying to build it myself.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Small update. Last night I finally had some time to pop the crank out and put in the new thrust bearing. Based on measurements on the bench, I was expecting .004 to .005" of crank endplay. I got everything buttoned back up, measured .0015" bearing clearance with the plastigage, tore it back apart, cleaned it, oiled it, re-installed and checked my endplay... .0025 to .003". Hmm. It's a bit tight, but screw it. At least now I can get full endplay movement with my fingers and watch the crank move. Last time the .0015 to .002" required reefing on the screwdriver.

Once I figure out a tool to let me lock the crank into position, I'll get started on the rod bearings. Hopefully I can accomplish that this weekend. Once I get the rod bearings measured, I can blow this stupid thing back apart, clean it, then order my new main cap bolts and assemble it for good.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Put a flexplate on with a few bolts and use a bar clamp to hold it against the block near the starter. It doesnt take much force

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

eh. I couldn't fit the flexplate without pulling the motor off the engine stand, so I made a new tool. I haven't torqued my rod bolts yet to see how effective my tool will be, but I think it should work ok. I took a piece of 3/16" plate and drilled holes for a couple flywheel bolts, and ran a long bolt with a spacer from a slot in the engine stand through that plate.

I also managed to install pistons 1 & 2, but right now the rod bolts are only hand tight. Dad's coming up tomorrow night to help hold the pistons while I remove the caps, install the plastigage and reinstall the caps. Hopefully I'll get all 8 done tomorrow along with verifying that I have adequate clearance in the block. Once I meet that milestone, I can finally tear it down, clean, and re-assemble for good.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

minor update. I finally had a chance to get all of my connecting rod clearances measured. My crank locking tool worked very well. As soon as I download the pics of my camera I'll post them. Anyway, measurements of 6 of the 8 caps landed somewhere between .0015 and .002, with one right at .0015 and one right at .002. This is consistent with my main bearing clearances as well. Overall my clearances are slightly more snug than I expected, but I suppose that's not a bad thing since I intend to run a full synthetic after initial break-in.

One thing that I noticed was that when torquing the rod bolts to ARP's specified 75ftlbs, I'm only getting about .004" of bolt stretch. ARP specifies that when tightening based on stretch that you want .0047 to .0052 of stretch. I didn't tighten them based on stretch because my stretch gauge (Jegs) is a pain in the ***, but I suppose that when I do my final assembly I should take the time to tighten them that way.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Pictures!

First pic is to show the chamfer of the main cap in relation to the bearing. There was some discussion on one of my threads about the chamfer of the cap spreading the bearing, making my endplay tight. Clearly from the pic, the chamfer isn't the issue:


Next picture is the tool that I built to hold the crank in position. Worked beautifully:


And lastly, my way of ensuring that my piston & rod didn't fall out of the bore:

Falconiroc

I absolutely love the amount of detail you have gone into about setting up your LSx build, your car is really going to be superb when it is done, and I'm excited to read your thread each time I see a new post. Keep it coming!

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

It's the standard assembly procedure that no one follows anymore