Burnout91

I'm in the same situation
I can't wait to see where my top end installed on top of an 11:1 406 will put the power output. A similarly modded LSx should get ahead, but it won't get away.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

I don't think my point was very clear. The beauty of the LS platform is I don't need 406ci to make monster power. I will be able to reach the 500rwhp mark with stock cubic inches (364). With better heads, intake, throttle body, and if need be a slightly different cam, I will be at a power level you can only get with much more cubes or a big shot of nitrous with a traditional small block.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

You can pass smog with an LS swap. There's hundreds of swaps done in California that pass smog. Ls1tech has tons of swaps on there, they're not all in 3rd gens.

Parasoth

iTrader: (1)

I want to see a stock bottom end TPI with just H/C/I run 9.5 in the 1/4th, and be driven to the track.

Burnout: So your 406 is going to make at minimum 550 to the rear wheels like a properly setup 408 iron block and still be streetable?

If I was selling parts for a platform that was dying out I would be trying to convert as many people back to it as possible(cough)... or move to the better platform.

Or just go BBC. BBC > all.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"You can pass smog with an LS swap. There's hundreds of swaps done in California that pass smog. "

I agree you just have to go through the hoops.

Carlos773

iTrader: (3)

These conversations make me want to go LSX. Decent power with just a cam swap and amazing mpg is not arguable to me.

injdinjn

Yes, installing a LSin CA does require dealing with the ****'s, but they have no way to disallow when a complete stock LS is transplanted. With a modded TPI you better have all your EO stickers and any visible welds etc might be hard to explain.
I have no way of running the numbers, but a used LS rebuilt and installed can't cost as much as all the legal after market parts to get almost the same HP from the TPI

ShMaCk2004

1. TPI is better than LSX...Really? so thats why GM still builds cars with TPI then?

2. It’s cheaper to make power with a TPI build vs. LSX build...no its not
3. LSX in 3rd gen is “bastardizing” your 3rd gen...you owning a 3rd is bastardizing ever 3rd gen out there
4. Only TPI motors belong in 3rd gens...thats why some came factory with carb and TBI?
5. LSX in 3rd gens look ugly...so does your girlfriend
6. LSX swap cannot be done in your driveway...oh man really? i guess i didnt do mine in my driveway after all! it must be some kind of new open air shop idea i came up with

7. TPI can get comparable MPG’s to a LSX and even better...i would like to see that.

zraffz

Atilla built a stroked TPI motor that built power until something like 6 grand if I remember correctly. I wanna say it was like 480 horse and 530 ft lbs.

I'm not saying I'm a fan of the TPI, personally I have never owned one but my god I don't think you can compare that to an LSx. In stock form the LS heads outflow many machined first? gen heads.
And as far as a sleeper goes, it doesn't matter what is under the hood. Everybody I have ever raced has never seen under my hood. When my car was bottled the only people who knew were my dad, my brother and my best friend.

Burnout91

Point taken.
Maybe my point wasn't very clear: Any engine can be modded for increased output; bickering over the number of parts required to do so is pointless, it is the end-game power level that will be used to measure the success. And, there is always at least one more part or idea to throw at the given motor.

FirehawkSS

iTrader: (2)

Can anyone really argue the point if they haven't done both? It seems like the only way to get a good comparison is to build and drive a tpi car and then build and drive a lsx car. For the people that have done both I don't think they're ever going back to a tpi.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Cant do the swap in the driveway??? Thats just a stupid argument. I dont mind the technical back and forths about each motor...but if people are throwing around things like that just to make the "anti-ls1 list" longer, than thats pathetic.

Ive done it TWICE...



Oh yeah...and the second time the motor went in IN THE DARK...



OMG the ugly cobbled together hideousness of it all!!!



Oh...yes a TPI can get comparable MPG to an LS1 swap... Yes it can make similar power. But I dont think either of those are easy to obtain at the same time... or without the use of a T56...which by the way guys...isnt a stock item on a thirdgen. So if you are swapping that in, chalk that up to the bastardization.

I dont like getting into the TPI vs. LS1 debate usually. Ive had both. Both have their pros and cons. If I were to purchase a VERY clean GTA...Ide probably leave it alone. I just hate the stupid arguments. But after driving my LS1 car for as long as I have...I would NEVER go back to a TPI for a daily driver or race car. Just a personal stance. My love of thirdgens keeps me from ever telling someone else their motor choice is wrong or stupid. Its all the same game folks.

J.

Aaron91RS

iTrader: (2)

These threads make me laugh.
I'm just happy I live in the LSx center of the world here in STL, where we were doing ls1 3rdgen swaps back in 2002.

BTW shameless plug.
Criticize this. (#3 swap for those keeping score.) Earlier in the morning this was nothing more then a roller after I had sold off the crossfire the week prior.


and it's a 98 with stock intake and heads. I'll still bet $10 it run's faster then that guys money pit TPI.
Total cost so far $0

dynodanmanda79

iTrader: (1)

LSx FTMFW, I have been bitten by this bug and now I want to convert my 79 malibu to an LSx, I love the new technology and I'm never going back to anything else other then LSx. The only regret of my swap... was not doing it sooner!

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

Just food for thought. My 355 AFR headed TPI with 150 shot ran 10's. , now I have an even badder TPI, any LS1's wanna run?

BUT, seriously, I have a 87 Iroc and a 99 SS(with a 408 that makes GREAT power), but the older I get and the less and less thirdgens that are around I don't think I could do a LS1 in a thirdgen although I see how and why people do.

BTW, when did the socal thirdgen scene become so popular? I haven't been on thirdgen in a while, but am very glad to see these cars redone in a different way than the 10 years ago. Young blood will keep these cars alive!

$750 L98

You must have missed the ~3 or so times I made a comment on this. I get why you SAY you are in here, but that is clearly not it. Because here you are, 2 pages later, still attempting to convince everyone that TPI is faster than LSX. You've called a swapper out for a apples vs oranges race...You are very much proving the OPs assumptions accurate.

I can certainly see why some people may be angered enough to refer to the "club" as TPI-****-Purists. Is that clear?

You've made it evident several times, and I have spelled out my thoughts on the situation plain and simple, here in the LSX/LTX sub-forum.

Really I just continued to argue to bump the post so other members can see how this "TPI club" represents itself.

$750 L98

Like I've said, I don't think anyone here doubts the possibility of building a TPI to be fast. I've done it. But there are cam only cars with LSx motors running 10's, put a 150 shot on those (if you can get traction) you could see 9's. Add heads, well, you get what I'm saying.

I agree with you though, as our cars get older and more collectible it would be hard for me to swap a LSX in one and ruin the original factory set up.

That's why I used my beat up old '89 Formy that needed a new block/trans anyway

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

Oh yeah, I agree. Our SS should run 10's NA FULL weight 6 speed. and woulda run all over the Iroc on the street

zachkuby87

The Lsx is the better motor does that mean everyone needs one no. But imho the lsx is better in every way am I a tpi basher or an lsx freak hell no I own a 305 tpi a carbed 350 and I have the 6.0 in my 03 sierra. My truck was cammed and geared and it beat on my 305 all day I know apples to oranges but I'm talking a big crew cab truck lifted 8 inches with swampers and just about every accesory imaginable... one more reason I say the lsx is better is the fact that my friend has a cammed ls in his 3rd gen he paid I think around 2500 for the swap and all parts he got the motor and 6 speed really cheap now I have a 350 cammed heads intake carb fuel pump all types of non sense and I can't beat him over all I spent more than him an have a slower car not t mention I get maybe 10 15 miles to the gallon tops he gets mid to high 20

Convoy25

iTrader: (3)

you dont think they can?

camaromike222

I think I'm going to start a TBI club here in SoCal so we can admire those bulging two injectors out of the pseudo carb and glistening black air cleaners, only differing in the amount oil and gunk build up on them. Let us not forget about those magnifisant, trend setting elbows that flow like kazoos and allow for all 170 ponnies to be unleashed on the masses. Who's in?

$750 L98

I have a Q-jet on my 1983 van, it has lots of gunk and varnish from the old gas and the oil leak the previous owner didn't fix. Can I join!?

I did put nice new gaskets on it, but then a exhaust manifold cracked, so I put LT heddman headers and thrush glasspacks on it...I swear I've never seen so many bolts twist in half like old chewing gum before!

Convoy25

iTrader: (3)

guess how many bolts i broke when i took off my exhaust manifolds

$750 L98

If you have luck like mine, probably like 10 of the 12? lol

Shift06

Me? No. But I am sure there are plenty of guys on LS1tech that sure would love to.

Z28FAST1

All I did was take the general consensus of the TPI Cult and burst its little bubble by exposing them to the rest of the world. It looks like the rest of the world loves LSX swaps and by the looks of the thread the only benefit a TPI build offers over an LSX build is nostalgia.

I'm in no way a "TPI basher" as my posts have stated that I am impressed with the way So Cal has stretched the potential of the TPI but at the same time I'm rational and inclined to technology therefore upgraded to the LSX platform.

It has become humorous for myself and TPITERR to defend the LSX swaps against the TPI Cult/purist. Instead of the TPI Cult praising the blood sweat and tears that we have put into our cars we get negative feedback such as 1. "the LSX looks ugly" 2. "my TPI will spank you" (which I find comedic) 3. that a TPI could have been built for less $$$(which isn't anyone's business) etc.

Instead of encouraging expansion of 3rd gens enthusiast through younger generations with new ideas(LSX), the cult is becoming obsolete

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"All I did was take the general consensus of the TPI Cult and burst its little bubble by exposing them to the rest of the world."

So how many members did you poll? I don't recall you asking for my opinion as an example. I think you are injecting your own thoughts and prejudices into your unfounded conclusions.

$750 L98

I suggest you go pick up any current recent issue of a GM oriented magazine...

Maybe take a look at Hawk's? But then again, they are just begging for business right?

Edit: Fear not, I've gone out into the world for you: http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...ula/index.html

One of my favorite swaps to date. Can't beat a blown LSx in a 3rd gen, best of both worlds for sure.

Note: That is a sleeper

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

I don't understand your comment.

LS1 run 10's NA? yes.....

TPI thirdgen run 10's NA(yes, but it would be VERY hard)



OMG, bench racer FTL. I was joking around. I have an LS1 too!

$750 L98

I'd be down, but I want to get ONE epic pass on film when I finish my head swap. If everything goes according to plan, I should SHOWER the track with piece of 10 bolt!

With slicks I have my fingers crossed for 10's, as long as the diff holds together

Convoy25

iTrader: (3)

84 Z28...

none =D

oh okay, with the 'doh' i wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or not

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Atilla says he built alot of engines. Never seen him do anything but mock-up stuff with any of his 305/350/4.3/5.3 engines

There are tons of fast TPI cars on here. None of them are by his hand

I cant believe how many TPI guys are comparing a heads/cam/nitrous TPI car vs a stock LS1. Duh, add the same stuff to the LS1 and youll have a VERY potent car thatll smash the TPI. Its more in line with the 305 vs 350 wars

305<350<LSx any way you slice it HP/$

1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

On the tpi vs. lsx subject. All good things must come to an end. In this case it was the tpi engine. And personal preferance id like to see ANY stock tpi vs. a stock ls1.

itsMikey

*sigh...
lol...

im doin it regardless of the nay sayers

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Made my own section on LS1tech just for carbed LS guys, just because we are using the old tech and new engines, so many do not like it, but they can keep looking at tail lights.

As for TPI...thing of the past.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

LS can do it with the stock long block, the L98...not going to happen all motor.

itsMikey

dads LS1 ran 11.2 with heads cam and a few bolt ons (and straight headers)

zraffz

Don't doubt it. They put down mid 12's with cam only fourth gens.

1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

youll love the ls motor. The swap isnt as hard as all the haters say. The 4th gen interior swap was the pita. Lol

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Really it is 6 of one half a dozen of the other. It does not matter what iron is under the hood if it was properly modeled and built to meet its requirements plain and simple. You wanna get out of the dark ages go get EAP. Type in your requirements how much horse you want how much torque you want, what platform you are going to build on (4th gen SBC or 1st gen SBC) see what it says. Then determine how much it will cost to get there with each platform. For some it makes sense to stay with a Gen1 SBC for others a complete pullout 3rd or 4th Gen SBC meets their needs.

Saying my car will beat your car is about as hill billy as it gets. There is always someone faster. Go watch Nelson TV on You tube. It is all a matter of engineering. He has twin turboed Gen1 SBC pumping out 1200hp. I imagine the car that goes into will scoot! On the same token I have seen a 427 Warhawk base LSx pumping out 800 hp NA.

It is personal preference and that is all it is.

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

if i had the money my Thirdgen would have an LSx in it, i would keep my little 305,rebuild it, and keep it in my garage until im ready to drop it back in WHEN these cars become desirable like 1st's(not going to argue that point, its how i see it)

but this is how i see the LSx nay Sayers, and no i have not read any a nay sayer has said, or do i even care because it honestly brakes down to the LS series being on top right now.

most of the time the 350 guys are throwing around that the 305 is a junk motor because it will only take you "so far" and a 350 is cheaper to build and will be faster, so when somebody challenges them and says then why wouldnt a 350 TPI guy go LSx(because i mean you can only go so far with a 350 tpi) and in the end an LSx is going to be cheaper and faster,

1. they don't like hearing that their motors are being considered "junk" like a 305(for the record i dont think any motor that came in these thirdgens where really "junk")
2. they may just be Purist's that believe whatever came stock should be what is in the car(even if the motor is no where near "stock")

its a never ending line of, well this motor will be cheaper and faster at the end of a build, and who knows what kind of motor will be out 10 years from now, but if i still have my RS and i have the money ill be damned if im not going to stick that motor in the RS

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

This thread makes me laugh.

Convoy25

iTrader: (3)

i was thinking the 305/350 thing the whole time!

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

Well I missed pocket's post on it, so I basically Elaborated on his 305<350<LSx statement

itsMikey

i know i will and yeah im thinkin its not AS hard but its still quite a project
me to funny how people will stand behind things when its someone elses stuff. i never asked for opinions, i asked for help/advice.

Grey Goose

I'm in!

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

Ill start the East coast Set

RockJay81

iTrader: (1)

Dont let this stuff get to any of you. i know when the LT1's came out there was alot of sh!!t-talk and its not even an engine used anymore. i had a carb b4 the swap didnt like it much and i witnessed all the crap the tpi guys i know go thru with that set up. personally i love My swap i will never go back to anything less. but if your stuck on tpi oh well good for you if it works for you then ok. its like i-pods vs cassette players. i know people who till have them lol not me

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Let me offer an unbiased opinion.

injdinjn

350 TBI in my van, can I join.