loomdog32

What is the difference in swap into 3rd gen f-body between:

LQ9 Chevrolet Performance Longblock
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/na...make/chevrolet

and

LS1 Chevrolet Performance Longblock
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/na...make/chevrolet


Both are about $3k plus freight. Would there be any benefit to using one of over the other? It is my understanding they are both Gen III LS motors. LS1 5.7L Aluminum Block making 310hp/340lb-ft and LQ9 6.0L Cast Iron Block making 340hp/380lb-ft. I also understand the LQ9 is missing the mount points for f-body accessories?

When local junkyard wants $2k for Truck LS motor longblock, I figure this is the better route to take... thoughts??

loomdog32

I am thinking of using these to round out the engine:

LS6 Intake
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-88894339

ARP Intake Bolts
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-430-2001

MSD Atomic LS EFI
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-2950

I would be using AC (in West Texas, oh ya, AC is a MUST!!!) with f-body accessories. I know I am missing items, but that was part of the reason for starting this thread. I wont be starting the build till Mid March/Early April 2013. In the mean time, I am getting my ducks in a row...

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

The LQ9 isnt missing any mounting points.

The LQ9 has a core charge on it that the LS1 doesnt have so its a little more money.

The LS1 will be a little lighter, the LQ9 a little more power, the ability to overbore for a future rebuild that the LS1 cant, and a little more power with everything else being equivalent, due to the bigger bore.

As far as the MSD setup, i'd strongly suggest against it, it doesnt eliminate much for wiring in reality because of all of the additional wiring needed for the car to be fully functional, and at the cost of double the pricetag of a new thirdgen specific LS1 harness and factory pcm, in reality its a lot of pocket weight reduction, for no gain.

86White_T/A305

Either motor can be used,the only thing with using the lq9 is you need to drill 1 hole for the alternator bolt.Other than that..use all fbody accessories no problem and you need the fbody opsu to fit with the ls6 intake on there.

Dont know what heads come on the crate motors but power wise the lq9 is a stronger motor to start with but its heavier.Since your buying everything new I assuming..that would be my choice but any reason why you dont want to find a used motor the will come alot more complete for your buck?

loomdog32

Where can I get the harness and fuel rails? Junkyards here are out of the question - The 1 yard within 35 miles of where I live only handles cars up to 5-7 years old. They DO NOT have ANY 3rd or 4th gen f-bodies!!

I was quoted $2k for a LQ9 longblock, $3k complete, from my local junk yard - No guarantee it would run. After rebuilding, I'm looking at about the same price for the same engine. Plus the crate longblock has a warranty.


I can probably find a donor car (there was recently a 94 or 95 Z28 for $1k w/ no interior), but the wife says that is out of the question. We already have 4 cars and not really any place for them...

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I as well as some other places offer swap harnesses, my point is that the MSD setup is misleading, you will still need a good bit of wiring work to make it usable and complete to have a fully functional car, they would have you believe you just need the kit and you've got a working setup, yes it will make the engine start and run, but thats about it.

Add to that fact that its got a whole 1 yr warranty, on a completely unique control computer, what happens when it goes bad ? You've got to hope that you're within the warranty and that you can get a replacement in a somewhat reasonable amount of time, and if its out of warranty, how much of that cost are they going to want for replacement electronics ? How hard is it to get, and how likely are you to find a shop that can diagnose issues with their hardware, vs an OEM setup ?

With an OEM computer, and custom harness, you're looking at a $50-100 replacement, and a setup that is just the same to diagnose as a factory car.
And either case you need a custom harness, even if you have the MSD setup.

Fuel rails are available everywhere, depends on what you plan on doing fuel wise, if you are looking to run an external regulator, the aluminum aftermarket ones are avail all day long, if you want a stock style in rail regulator like the early corvettes, they're a little harder to find, but at any rate a fuel rail is quite easy to get.

94 and 95 are still LT1, that wouldnt get you much if your goal is an LSx setup.


Being that you would have to get the engine shipped even from summit, i'd just look at salvage yards that arent local to you, realistically an LQ9 should run you about $1000, for the $3000 you're looking at for those longblocks I can usually find an L92 longblock for only a few hundred more.

loomdog32

How much would a complete harness be? Keeping in mind Im still a few months from starting the build and this would not be one of the first parts Id be buying?

What other wiring is needed outside of sensors needed for instrument cluster?

I have 4 vehicles. The Camaro would be a weekend car. Unless I'm going to a car show or something like that, it wouldn't leave town. My DD on the other hand (2008 Ford F150), well, lets just say it has been most of the State of Texas in the past 6 months.

I wouldnt be taking the car to a shop where I live. After having to rebuild the engine in my Mustang because the local Ford dealer screwed up a oil change (used wrong oil and too much). If the Atomic lives up to half of its rantings, I should be able to get just as much diagnostic info out of it as I would the stock ECM, using the same sensors.

Again, where can I get a stock late 4gen fbody setup and how much?

As I understand, the Atomic unit should replace the fuel rails, harness, and ECM. Also means I do not have to get the ECM tuned.

As a straight cost comparison, what would that cost using NEW equipment?

I know that, I was only using it as an example.

Even at $1k, I would still consider the crate engines. I am finishing up rebuilding a 01 3.8 v6 Mustang. It should hopefully be back on the road next weekend. In the end, I will have just under $2k inverted in that rebuild. That is in machine work, OEM replacement parts and labor when needed. That tells me, the $1k junkyard motor will potentially cost $3k out the door (the same as the crate motor). Why put the time and effort into it for the same return??


I really do appreciate the input. I really wish I lived somewhere I had better junkyard access, but that is just not going to be a realistic option for on this build... As you may have noticed, I am after $$ numbers as well. I am looking for realistic options, so when I budget for the project, I kinda know what to expect (plus $1k or $2k)...

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

A complete new harness, $850-1400, depending on materials, and where you go.

With the MSD setup, you have the engine harness ONLY, you will not have reverse light wiring, gauges, power into the car, fans, a/c, etc, for something like a new harness with only those things, you'd be looking at $400-500 alone, for something that would be complete, and done right.

I wasnt talking about diagnostic info if something is wrong with the engine, i'm talking about if the actual ECU to the MSD setup is bad.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

you could buy an entire '98-2000 fbody in decent running and driving condition for around $4k nowadays. i would do that before buying an engine for $3k.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

The mileage, use and abuse doesnt make this a fair comparison, as he's already said, he's figuring on 2k to rebuild the engine anyway, so its a wash.


Almost bought a running donor car for 1100$ a few days ago but someone beat me to it

loomdog32

running, yes.. decent, no... I used to have a craigslist app on my phone that searched ttop Camaro (that's how I found the 82 I am currently planning on rebuilding). in this region, they are so overpriced it isn't funny. Make the 5hr drive to DFW and that story changes drastically. If the wife would allow me to buy a donor vehicle, that would be the route I would take (as I also plan on doing T56).


4th Gen Camaro Z28 and SS Currently on Odessa Craigslist
96 Z28 - $7k
http://odessa.craigslist.org/cto/3410617577.html
01 SS - $9.9k
http://odessa.craigslist.org/cto/3382288443.html
98 SS - No Price
http://odessa.craigslist.org/cto/3387351998.html
98 Z28 - $8.5k
http://odessa.craigslist.org/cto/3378153718.html
01 Z28 - $7.5k
http://odessa.craigslist.org/cto/3329991696.html
95 Z28 - $5k
http://odessa.craigslist.org/cto/3311530986.html

4th Gen TA & Formula Currently on Odessa Craigslist
(note I didnt add a couple from DFW 300+ miles away that were low mileage)
95 Formula - $650, LT1, 4L60E, No Water Pump, No Interior <-- This has been on CL for a while now. If it was T56 instead of Auto, I wouldve bought it anyways besides my wife's objections.
http://odessa.craigslist.org/cto/3396652448.html
94 TA - $1.5k, Transmission Issues
http://odessa.craigslist.org/cto/3374501351.html
01 TA - $12k
http://odessa.craigslist.org/ctd/3319504422.html

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

If I remember correctly, the LS1 and LQ9 heads are same casting but the LS1 has something around 64cc chamber and the LQ9 has 72cc chamber. LQ9 has flat top pistons and I think the LS1 is dished a bit. Not sure if compression ratio is the same. Most people would take the LQ9 over and LS1 because of the extra low and mid-range torque and power. And that holds true with upgraded cams too.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

LQ9 317 head ports are usually referred to as the same as LS6, just with a bigger chamber, not LS1.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Also, loomdog, how are you coming up with $2000 in rebuild parts for the engine ?


I'd think you would be a LOT better off doing the rebuild yourself, if you can as it seems you would be able to, and getting a far better end product, sure both in the end get you a "rebuilt" LQ9, but do you really think they used the best of the best building it, and did they just use typical specs and you'll get an ok engine, or did they keep a close eye on every last detail needed to get something really good.

loomdog32

I am currently rebuilding 01 3.8L v6 Mustang. I will have about $2k total in that rebuild when all is said and done (machine work, parts, and labor when needed). No performance parts. Nothing radical in the machine work. That is where I am basing that number form.

In that instance, engine overheated and warped a head. The bottom end looked good. The engine has just over 200k on it.

For the most part I agree with this statement. I am able to build engines and do enjoy it! It really is a matter of space concerns ATM. The Mustang is currently sitting in my friends garage. Lets just say, I wont be using that garage for anymore "big" projects (like building an engine)... If I had to buy the engine today, Idk where I would be working on it or where I would store it. By March, that will be a different story!

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Realistically you should have something like:

Hone block, tank, install freeze plugs & cam brgs $400-500ish
Head rebuild $300

Rings $150
Bearings $240
Gaskets $400
Timing chain $160
Oil Pump $100

Thats using all quality stuff, under 2k, and you can bet that stock rebuilt engine didnt get the rings file fit, it didnt get a quality timing chain, or LS6 pump, etc, similar cost, but a far better end result.

Trust me I understand the simplicity of just ordering that engine, i'm just saying its not an apples-apples comparison.

loomdog32

That list add up $1850, just under $2k. Id bet with incidentals would be over $2k. I totally understand the statement and agree it would be a better build quality (probably both parts and service). Ugh...


I see the duck, it sounds like a duck, but why do I keep calling it a turkey???

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

a '99 t/a sold locally here a few weeks ago for $3600 or so. had a dent in the fender and a missing ground effect piece or something like that. other than that it was pretty decent.
here is a '00 t/a with some clearcoat issues for $5k.... which means you could probably pick it up for $4500. they are out there, trust me.
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/ctd/3387419175.html

but, it may not be worth it to go to another location to get it. (if your region is overpriced)

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The Atomic LS has a few advantages if you're starting out with nothing. But, it sure is pricey. And, it won't control an electronic automatic transmission.

The LQ9 has truck oil pan and damper - the pan won't work in a 3rd gen (unless you're willing to have it stick down lower than anything else on the car), and the damper won't work with LS1 accessories.

The LQ9 has the same compression ratio and better heads (317) than an LS1 (853 or 241 heads).

I'd say the chance of a JY LQ9 needing a rebuild is less than 50%. The 147k miles LQ4 I picked up had a bunch of oil gunk build up (i.e., maintenance-neglected), but you could still see cross hatch in the cylinders. If I wasn't doing a complete build (basically only using the block), I could have done a crankcase flush and run it.

88FormulaKiller

iTrader: (8)

Loom, where are you located? state? i can find you a used LQ9 for way less than what your finding. PM me if your interested and we'll go from there.

Jay

loomdog32

I am located in West Texas.

It really comes back to TOTAL COST. I know JY LQ9 can be had for $500, but... What is the cost gonna be for transport? How much time do I have to spend with transport (time is money)?

I will not be buying anything till at least March. I am in the planning stages now.

86White_T/A305

Trust me your costs in shipping a motor would be less than what I had to pay to have my transmission freight to canada plus border fees.I seriously spend some time on ls tech classifieds and do some shopping for good deals on used parts your looking for and spend the coin on things you would need new.

I started with a pretty beaten ls1 that was complete intake to pan with harness and ecu for $700.I didnt want to rebuild it but knew I could keep everything and get another block and drop right back in.Drove the ls1 for a year before it gave out while I was preparing my lq4 that I found on a good deal aswell.Keep shopping and asking members for things they might sell thats stuffed in the back burners.You can have a much better/faster car than buying a crate if you do some homework.