silent420wolf

hello, i did some stupid things over the winter like sell my LQ4/4L60E stock build. the idea was to get into the LS3 range through budget means by obtaining a L92 or similar truck series motor. problem is that i was told its more hassle than getting another LQ4/LQ9 build and modify. so i have a set of 243 Heads from my LS4 07 Impala SS that needed a new engine. how or where can i get advice as to parts i need to finish the build, for clearance purposes i am only focusing on the engine and trans as all wiring and hoses ETC are still intact from previous build.

here is my parts list roughly:
LQ4/LQ9 complete engine
4L60E or a 6-speed auto like 6L90E? thoughts
CAM
243 heads
torque converter.

at this point i am not sure what else is needed but my goal is 500hp.

now i have read countless threads and completed my own swap previously but each thread is tailored to that user and thats what i followed the first time but now i want to make this build my own. all criticism and help is welcomed but only experienced and helpful comments only please.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I'll give you advice on the heads...

The LQ4 and LQ9 have heads just like the 243 but with larger chamber volume. You can use the 243 heads on the LQ4 to raise compression ratio for a performance build. You might have to fly cut the pistons for valve clearance. The LQ9 is already greater compression ratio so you would just sell the 243 heads. LQ9 will accept L92/LS3 heads if you want to go that route.

You need to decide on heads before you buy the intake since the ports are different on L92/LS3 heads. Bottom line is the L92/LS3 heads and LS3 intake are AWESOME and the cheaper route to make a lot of power. If you use the old cathedral port heads then you would have to do fully ported heads and a FAST intake to match it and those two items are nearly $3K.

You can easily get to 500 HP flywheel with old or new heads. But you'll do more with your money using the LS3 top end.

Lonnie P

Actually some dyno results have shown 500 flywheel HP with a stock LS3 by adding just a tune & set of open headers.


That's something considering how ridiculously small the factory cam is.

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

I disagree, completely.

LQ9 with stock thickness gaskets and 243 heads will yield a compression ratio close to 11.1:1 which will work great on pump gas with all but the most aggressive of camshafts. LS3 heads will put the CR around 10.5:1, which is a little low for most builds.

Square port heads NEED a larger bore, period. You can crutch the 4" bore block going .030" over along with careful valve selection and/or valve events. If the 243 heads are FREE, there is no point in going to the square port stuff for a 500hp build.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

You're smoking crack. Stock L92 heads on a LQ9 is a proven 10 second combo with a cam and Victor Jr intake. I don't care if it isn't optimized. Still works better than an 11 second LQ9 with stock 317 heads.

My own 427 with stock 6.0L bore and stock L92 heads ran 10.7s at 128 mph first pass off the trailer on 89 octane and a small cam. Broke it in using my friend's Buick.

Any set of heads will be free for the OP because he has two sets of heads he can sell or use. The LS3 intakes are a HP/$$ bargain unmatched by anything in the LS1 world. Even comes with larger injectors he can use.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Yea agree above and disagree with Marc

243 heads on a lq9 is essentially a ls2

Ls3 top end will trump that as there flow better out of box better than 243
Cam only guys are putting close to 500 to the wheels just seen a dyno chart the other day guy made like 470 something

Can only lq9 243 heads will need a lot more to achieve your goal and that means more money so it prob be best to go ls3 top end anyways

If I had choice I'll step up to ls3 top end and still have slots of room to grow as stock the support crap amount power NOT ported or work on

Stock for stock ls3 wins

But to OP but if your on a budget then stick with what you have or sell to get LS3 stuff
Good luck on build !!!

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/ght...-head-to-head/

silent420wolf

thanks for that advice, but like you said the cost to keep the 243 heads is really high. thanks for your input

silent420wolf

The LQ4 and LQ9 have heads just like the 243 but with larger chamber volume. You can use the 243 heads on the LQ4 to raise compression ratio for a performance build. You might have to fly cut the pistons for valve clearance. The LQ9 is already greater compression ratio so you would just sell the 243 heads. LQ9 will accept L92/LS3 heads if you want to go that route.

You need to decide on heads before you buy the intake since the ports are different on L92/LS3 heads. Bottom line is the L92/LS3 heads and LS3 intake are AWESOME and the cheaper route to make a lot of power. If you use the old cathedral port heads then you would have to do fully ported heads and a FAST intake to match it and those two items are nearly $3K.

You can easily get to 500 HP flywheel with old or new heads. But you'll do more with your money using the LS3 top end.[/QUOTE]


@ QwkTrip
thanks for that knowledge, you are correct about the cost of using the 243 heads. thanks for you input i really appreciate it.

silent420wolf

that sounds great as well but its hard finding a budget friendly LS3.
also i hear that the electronics portion of the LS3 swap is much morh costly and complicated. am i correct with that or just told wrong?
thanks to you for your advice

silent420wolf

ohhh my...the 243 heads are absolutely free and in fantastic condition. where can i learn to figure out stuff like compression ratios, valves and cam specs because i dont understand how to calculate this technical data.

this is great news, i would like to work with what i have but the budget is around 3k. i can get a LQ4/LQ9 in great condition complete for around 500-900 dollars because they are so readily available. this is getting good and the butterflies are flying...

silent420wolf

ohh snap, now the decisions are getting tough
thanks so much

silent420wolf

thanks buddy, i really like the LS3 power and most of my car junky buddies are begining to go with the LS3 top end. good to know.

silent420wolf

great advice so far from some repetable guys here.
assuming the LQ4-LQ9 block and LS3 top end, what cam would be appropriate?

now i have 3k to spend along with the heads and all old parts from my LQ4 build so thats a plus

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

FYI - If you use an LQ4 short block then 243 heads are in your future because of the dished pistons. If you want LS3 top end then you need to factor in new pistons for the LQ4 or buy a more expensive LQ9.

I've had an LQ4 with ported 243 heads and it was quick and met your goal of 500 Hp. Best of all it was easy. Nothing wrong with that setup. I'm just trying to help you understand the other possibilities in case you want to adjust your expectations.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

I agree

Ported 243 will produce power and flow very well
Look into Advance Inductions last time I check you can get full cnc work for like 900 which is a great deal for what they do they do have cheaper cnc porting options as well
good thing about LSX motors you can easily Pop them bad boys off send them to get ported and Pop them back on in no time if you decided to do it at future date

Also to add on is that you can buy used good condition lq9 pistons and swap them out or whole rotating assembly if you find a smoking deal

Keep in mind also that around 2004-up LQ4 was updated and used floating wrist pins and rod PN 12577583 vs the press fit. Shouldn't be a problem swapping to the LQ9 flat tops. The piston PN should be 89017478, which are also used in both the LS2 and LQ9.

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

The square ports are superior, I won't argue that. But they don't work well in a 4" bore application. Go .030"-.060" over and things change. Furthermore the milling required to achieve a decent compression ratio on the square ports means he will need to cut the pistons.

Speaking of smoking crack... You claim to have a 427ci engine with a 4.00" bore? You can't run a 4.25" crank on a stock block. Your "427" performance results are about as meaningless as me pointing out that near full weight M6 cars have done that with a true cam only LS1. Especially when that LS1 didn't have any port work (like your TSP LS3s) and a smaller cam too.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Milling heads point .030 will bring you to just about same compression range
Fly cutting piston depending on cam size is needed depending on how big you want your cam
But that's if you mill your heads

But fly cutting and milling heads are not expensive to do and not hard
You can play around with different thickness head gaskets to achieve you desired compression and PTV clearances

All in all I don't think its a big deal or explained correctly
So I won't say it won't work well because it will
You just have to consider more things and be more involved and the clearance issue depending on you setup and parts wanted

So just wanted to post on why and not point fingers and start arguements just want to provide accurate information to help a fellow car guy so relax guys
No matter what route you will be happy both are good setups

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

You know very well the 6.0L stroker kits are marketed as 427. Nobody is confused by this. Saying anything else would just confuse people, and I am unapologetic about making things easy to understand. And it was indeed stock L92 heads and small cam. Ported heads and larger cam came later. I got to do the engine twice thanks to a careless freight carrier.

I gave the OP two examples of what L92 heads can do for anybody. Your example of a 10 second cam only LS1 is so profound that it makes the magazines. Most people can't relate to it because we can't make it happen. My examples are doable by anybody that can cut a decent 60' time.

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

Nobody?! Do you own a mirror?

They ONLY way you're going to get 427 cubic inches from a 4.0" bore is with a 4.250" crank which requires a tall deck or sleeved block. You have neither. If you truly do have 427" and Gen IV iron block, then you have a 4.060" L92 block. Which brings me back to the 4.0" bore point. If you've got a stroked 4.0" bore block you probably have a 402 or 413. Either way, you don't even know what engine is in your own damn car.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

All the facts and no sense. You're so consumed with the details... well, consumed with yourself actually but we'll just pretend it's about the details... that you can't grasp the broader concepts.

Frankly, the OP doesn't care and this is his thread.

silent420wolf

Well I am leaning to a LQ9 block with L92 heads and intake. Do I need to change the stock cam to reach my 500+hp with this combination?
can I use one of the new 6 speed automatic transmissions GM offers or is the 4L60E the choice?
what torque converter for my setup to?

Podium

iTrader: (2)

What? LOL.


Obviously you are confused because they are not. You should just stop talking.

Podium

iTrader: (2)

Someone gets it! I have had buddies who did the LS3/l92 top end. Looks good on paper but the car never performed as well as it should have. Just because a head flows .330 doesnt mean its the best for every motor it can fit on.

I personally wouldn't use ls3/l92 heads on a lq9.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

What short block did they have, how fast did they run with the L92 heads, and was it slower than the stock 317 heads?

Old thread but just as true today as it was back then.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation...m-10-80-s.html

Podium

iTrader: (2)

How did I know you were going to link a thread to ls1tech.

Im done here lol

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Ryan is a real person I know.

To the OP, Burgers can set you up. He can get you new fully assembled heads cheaper than anyone. And whatever else you want.

cypris09

iTrader: (1)

Can't speak for the other two but Zach and qwk are all over the forums. Plus ls1tech has a load of info so hands down I'd listen to them. They have helped me before so I know they're right.

silent420wolf

[QUOTE=QwkTrip;5884968]Ryan is a real person I know.

To the OP, Burgers can set you up. He can get you new fully assembled heads cheaper than anyone. And whatever else you want. [/QUOTE

Thanks, but who or what is burgers?

silent420wolf

well i am looking for the help through this thread because i am a noobie in relation to engine internals. my first swap was just that a swapped engine from one to the other with out any modification. BUT now i feel brave enough to venture into the engine and learn....

so i understand now with the LQ4 and LQ9 differences were the pistons. they both have the 317 heads. if I use the LQ4 setup use either 243 heads (i own already) ported or use LQ9 pistons if I want L92/LS3 heads and intake combination.
now which cam works for which combo?
my goal is 500hp automatic trans daily driver.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

For cam that's very subjective n really depend on supporting mods and what you using you car for

Just because you want a cam that makes 500 on street with supporting mods doesn't mean you will be happy with it most people get wrap up in dyno number

Where there power is in the powerband is more important
And for true street rod most power under the powerband will be the most rewarding

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

If you INSIST on the small bore with the square ports, and you want 500hp (crank?) and daily driver type drivability, I would STRONGLY recommend Lunati's 60516. Don't be fooled by the small duration, it's a performer.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Wow, another fight going on.



IMO FWIW
I have an LS2 w/4L65e. With a zero knock retard tune, I'm at 380rwhp stock (headers & CAI). Plan is to eventually h/c/i to just under 500rwhp with driver reliability. Like mentioned above, not concerned with hitting a number for a driver.
For this kind of build, keeping the 243's (and porting) will serve the build and KEEP AIR VELOCITY HIGH (especially under the curve). Cathedral ports are fine for this scenario.
Plus, I've been able to run stock for now and enjoy - too many don't keep their ride on the street and lose interest/enjoyment. I've had time and money to install the MW 12 bolt, and other things to support the final motor push.
I contacted some very knowledgeable people for cams while the motor was out, they told me that since my JY takeout had only 34k on it, they would not advise going into the motor, yet. Complete the swap, iron out the kinks, get the drivetrain ready and when you get close to 75k, give us a call. I did not initially like that advice, but it has proven to be great advice.
Good Luck on your project.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Yea I agree with that statement I built my car with that in mind to keep it a daily driver and enjoyment definitely increased , I do believe I would lose interest if it wasn't so

Only thing I wish I did differently was to keep driving with stock engine and just fix the broke trans until I got swap ready to drop in

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

EPS cams is worth looking at. Seems they have a bunch of happy customers and it will be a custom grind tailored for you. They did wonders to my friend's LS1 in a '68 Camaro. Plenty of torque for city driving, but pulls past 7500 RPM. 480 RWHP on a LS1 with ported 241 heads. The MS4 cam he had earlier came nowhere close to that and had terrible low end torque for normal driving.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

He is the guy in the link I provided.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation...m-10-80-s.html

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

I have a EPS cam don't let the small duration fool you and I would def buy from them again there lobes are more gentle on valvetrain so longer valvetrain life
Can I say under curve power like WOW people say swapping to LSX you lose that low end grunt feels same and pull like a freight train
Mines is a small 228/230 112 def want to see the powerband when I get on the dyno but the but dyno is say holy ****
The tried and true XER lobes are good but are aggressive ramp rates for the street

silent420wolf

now a little more info, i have a 10 bolt 2002 WS6 342 gears and i want to use the 4L65e trans or perhaps (6L80-6L90 trans). i want to get as close to 500HP. i am not really concerned with numbers though, i want a daily driver with some occasional fun. i thought i would just get one of the 6.2L truck motors and CAM it but i was told the LS3 is complicated to get into our Third Gens and i dont have HERO time to make easy sense of another long swap. yeah i think a LY6 is a good base and i can take advantage of the parts owned and have them ported. who is recommended for the head work? with the LY6 i need to change the pistons to the LQ9 to match my 243 heads. is there a more updated LQ9?.the 243 heads come from a LS4 motor, can i use the same OEM head parts like rockers, valves etc...or is there a better alternative? whats a good stall range for the converter?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

You keep saying 500 HP - where does that number come from? What's so magical about it?

Now you say "daily driver with some occasional fun". I'm not sure how to say this gently, but that's not 500 HP. That's more like 350 HP.

Can you drive 500 HP daily? Probably. But it's more likely to get you in trouble than anything else.

But, for reference, GM takes a basic LS3, adds a .525/.525" 226/236 110 LSA cam and sells it as a 525 HP crate engine. That's with the LS3 intake and exhaust manifolds. Yes, it cost $7600+ and you still need the $1200+ controller and harness kit, and accessories, and the nickel and dime stuff that always adds up, but it's an honest 525 HP with a warranty. Have a buddy here who put one in his 2nd gen 'Bird that weighs 3300 with him in it, has run high 11's up at our 5800' elevation. Not too shabby.

Now, I'm figuring that you're not up to shelling out $10k for an engine, and still need a transmission. So, let's be realistic.

LY6 - A 6 liter LS3. You are already shying away from an LS3, so an LY6 isn't going to be any better.

6L80/6L90 - I doubt you're up to what it would take to get one of those in a 3rd gen. I'd say stick with the 4L65E.

My suggestion? Find a LQ4, put your 243 heads and an LS6 intake on it, factory rockers are fine, put a nice cam from whoever you choose (even Comp wouldn't be a big mistake) - heck, even an LS6 cam would be fine, and go with it.

For reference, my LS1/4L60E has 317s shaved to 65cc, LS6 cam, springs, and intake, Hawks 1-3/4" long tubes with 2-1/2" collectors, simple 3" cat-back, 3600 stall lockup converter, TransGo shift kit, 3.73 gears. It has run 11.8's at sea level (with a little weight reduction), more like 13.0's at our elevation without weight reduction. It is a very well-mannered street car, but it is VERY easy to get in trouble with it. I haven't had it on a dyno, but it would probably put out around 400 HP at the crank (which is how that LS3 crate I talked about above is rated). With a 6.0 and 243 heads, that would bump up to about 425 HP. Really, that would make for a fine daily and could be very fun.

And some friendly advice: Forget this "500 HP" stuff. It's meaningless.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

(Oh, and for the record, a 4"' bore with 4" stroke comes out to 402 CID. Mine is 4.005" bore with a 4.00" stroke for 403 CID. It takes a 4.125" bore to get to 427 CID with a 4" stroke.)

silent420wolf

i have decided on my selection.
i found a LQ9 motor close to home with just under 100k miles for 1k dollars. good deal or naw?
use my 243 heads on the LQ9, what head gasket should i use?
for the 243 heads what do i need to do to rebuild them, they come from a LS4 motor? any clearance issues?

silent420wolf

the 500 is just a targeted goal? i am not expecting to just pull of 500 hp with some serious thought and cash. i am looking for a setup that doesnt require tons of aftermarket parts because the stock parts are good and proven for reliability. i like the daily driver because i do not go to track to have fun. families and working take up my available time, but most of us are this way i assume so my only fun is the hour drive to work on one lane roads in the country where WOT is possible without trouble...you know. my LQ4 was this way but as we know stock LQ4 loose torque in the 5000RPM range so i just want to beef it up to theretical 500 HP. hell 400 is more realistic at this point and is satifying.

thanks for the reply though

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

It's where there power is in power band and tq for street you can have all the power you want in upper rpm range put you wil hardly be in that rpm range enough to justify making power that high especially on the street

You want a cam with most under curve power vs only making power above higher rpm levels

Also the reason why power falls of is because bigger displacement engines don't need to spin as hi to make power like a 5.3 and or 5.7
To include bottom end improves also

What fast five trying to say is don't get consumed by just wanting a specific number it doesn't mean nothing
And to build you car and engine to what your going use it for

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

For a light car, this is wrong. Why build power in an RPM range that the right torque converter for the application will prevent you from using? Power under the curve has it merits, but the OP doesn't have a heavy car with **** gearing and a tight converter.

92BLKL98

The build I'm working on is an LQ9 with L92 heads and LS3 intake, Comp LS3 cam and 1 3/4 LT's. I'm hoping for + or - 400 RWHP through a 4l60E with a 2002 10 bolt with 3.23's. Sounds like you are looking at pretty much the same build as mine.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Imo weight is a has little to do with power curve at all or converter sizing , yes you have to take account for gearing tire size etc but being light weight isn't the deal breaker

I don't get your statement about the converter ???

I never mention anything about such thing

But to make sense of your statement... just states that you have a wrong stall speed for your cam it's common sense to match your converter to your cam . converter Stalls range from stock to over 3500 + rpm and that just depends on cam selection as some make power up hi some lower there is a desired rpm range that cam makes the best power , a ill match setup will have Will be a poor performing setup

Hence why you need to build your car around the cam you want as supporting mods is most important thing to consider

With lsx engines and lack of tq like tpi engines you need higher converter and gearing where as tpi can get away with out Lower stall gearing

So depending on your use of a given car will determine what cam would be best and Imo will have a more enjoyable car and that goes both ways if you race then having a cam that suits your use will be enjoyable also

My statement was just emphasizing street car as vast majority builds on here are for street now if you making a race car track car or street track car and actually do race then by all means get the cam that will give you fastest time and power

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Whoa, missed this somehow.

If it really is an LQ9, then I wouldn't touch the heads. The flat tops will produce plenty of compression with the 317 heads for street use.

You may want to change valve springs, depending upon what cam you end up using, but that should be all the heads need.

$1k for an LQ9 in good condition isn't too out of line, in my view.

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Lq9 with 243 heads is just a iron block ls2

243 heads are 64cc vs around 71cc 317 heads iirc
So there's will be a nice bump in compression and increase power across the board

Compression for ls2 is 10.9 iirc
Lq9 compression is 10.4:1


317 heads flow the same as 243/799 heads out the box just different in combustion chamber size and power is made from the smaller chamber which in turns bumps compression and not from the flow of heads