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LTX and LSXPutting LT1s, LS1s, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
This swap has been largely done by a buddy in his spare time who runs his own shop. Unfortunately he got crazy busy lately so I took the car back and am trying to get it back to running myself. I think I finished getting a good inventory of whats left and I have a bunch of questions at this point! I just am looking to get it driving and inspected initially, interior is a wreck and will leave that for another day.
First thing is context, car was a 92 ttop rs (305tbi auto) with a 350 swap when the original motor gave up. Kept very little, interior and body pretty much, stripped engine and under the car as best I could and painted it.
Searched for like 2 years and parted out a pretty nice 99 ls1 t56 z28 donor car I talked the guy down to $2500 for, took it all. This is about as far as I got before I gave it over to my buddy to start rebuilding.
At this point the car has:
LS1 is a built 383 now, designed to be supercharged some point in the future. Got an all hawks exhaust on it, long tubes and their huge single pipe exhaust kit (hoping its not gonna be crazy loud). Stock ls1 intake and tb, gotta save up for a fast 102 or something.
T56 got sent to Tick for their stage 3 build
Custom Monster clutch (builder buddy specked out something that would hold a lot of hp but still be streetable)
99 gas tank swapped over with racetronics Twin fuel pump kit (twice because first kit had wrong gauge sender in it), new fuel line.
Took all the 99 brakes, front and back, took the booster and master cylinder as well, used bigbrakeupgrade for modding the front spindles. New brake lines cause might as well.
No longer have to care about emissions, so all that stuffs gone.
A super nice sub frame kit. I need to get the make, its one of the nicest ones I've seen and my buddy found it. Has a lot of mount points, front/back frames obviously, side frame under door, and under the seats too.
Has a small cage in the car now, its not completely drag spec, he said I'd pretzel the car with the motor if I didn't. I told my buddy the back seats must work for my kids, this car after all still has to be able to take the family.
Using the 99 driveshaft and I have the 99 rear end in it currently, its gonna grenade with this motor I am sure, so saving up for something much beefier.
I have a hawks swap harness in the car right now, using the factory 99 ecu as well.
If I have forgotten anything or missed something let me know I'll add it into the descriptions. Onto the questions!
Random thick cable:
I traced it back to the top of the steering column real close to the pedals and I can stick my phone up there to kinda see where it attaches. What is it? Do I need it? If not, how does it come out of the steering column?
Interior wires:
I have two packs of wires off the harness I need to know what to do with.
The first pack looks like from what I've read as the C100 connector? Its white and its got the 2 wires going into it and then a third purple wire just hanging out. What is the purple for and what do I do with it?
The second pic I don't know what the connector is yet, but its also got this thick green wire going into this thick purple one in the same wire bundle, that doesn't seem right is it?
HVAC:
I have the 4th gen ac compressor, and the kmember is notched so that fits. With the hawks longtubes though it looks like the hoses are going to touch the headers no matter what, I cant even get the connector close without the headers being in the way, in the pic the connectors still have to rotate 45 degrees or so up to match where the compressor holes are. Is anyone running 4th gen ac with longtubes? Also any guide on what bits to assemble together, I'm all ears. I think I have most of the stuffs from both cars still. In the meantime, can I run the car with the compressor open like this?
Shifter and some kinda cover:
What boot/cover should I get to cover this big hole? Also, is this shifter ok? It came with the 99 car, the handle itself I don't seem to have. Keep or put something else on? Also, I need trans fluid, any recommendations?
Thank you all! I just wanna get the car running on the street. Its been a LONG time, like I had kids which put this on hold and my oldest is turning 8 long time.
For the shifter you just need a lower shifter boot thats sold through hawks and or off ebay.
The thin electrical connection looks like it goes to the steering column. Its hard to tell in that pic, but it also looks like someone spliced into it. Have you looked at the wiring schematics on Austin Thirdgen? The white connector is not the C100. The c100 resides in the driverside firewall and connects the body harness to the underhood harnesses.
I’m pretty sure that cable is for cruise control, you don’t need it for the swap. It goes up to the upper part of the steering column into the ignition switch/cruise control switch IIRC.
I should caveat that electrical wiring and electronics have evaded my efforts to make sense of them for way too many years. And this coming from a guy who writes software for a living. Ask me to write a free version of hptuners, I could do that, the Neural Net stuffs they are working on is right up my alley. Ask me how to complete a circuit to make the thingy talk to the other thingy when this thingy says so, that's like rocket science or something. I am competent in the doing, but any help to dumb down the circuit bits into easy steps would help a ton.
camarorsssss
I cant find anything about it in the haynes manual to see if that matches, any idea how to get it out? I managed to get a shot above from one side of the steering column of it up in there. Think just those screws are all it is? Wanna check because I recon those screws are never going back in if I do take them out based on how I cant see anything up there.
vorteciroc
Ok that makes sense about the thick wires. When converting to a manual, would I want to tie these into a clutch switch and get the same effect? I have the switch I think in my box-o-parts. With it jumped like this that would be dangerous right?
Am gonna search a little and see if i can find anyone who has wired these up right. Am worried if its not plugged in if the dark blue means the turn signals wont work.
I found 2 boots on hawks, one for thirdgens and one for 4ths. The dimensions say they are the same size, but the pics dont look like it at all. Which do you think would be the better fit?
Brakes Bled
Trans Fluid 4 quarts Dex/Merc Autozone brand (called Tick and they recommended that)
Rear Diff 1.5qt 75w90
1 gal antifreeze + 2 gal water
Nose and front clip mounted (was just hanging on before)
Got HPTuners setup and went through a few guides to do the bare minimum config changes:
Disable VATS
Disable second O2 Bank
Update Cylinder Volume
Update Injector Flow table
Disable a bunch of SES codes (emissions, EGR, etc)
Burned tune, pushed car outside, did fuel pressure test with the fuel pump, checked for leaks, tried to fire and.... NOTHING.
Stared in disbelief a little, re-flashed tune, checked I put gas in the car (I did), checked battery was ok (its at like 11v, a little low), tried again, NOTHING.
Spend a good 45 minutes pushing car back in garage because I was fully confident it was going back in under its own power.
I've been reading and all I have come across is the neutral safety switch would cause a total non-action start attempt like that. The first post you can see the joined big green and purple wires that were from the auto shift connector. Digging around though I found the below connector under the dash with the exact same colors and gauge.
Do both of these have to be hooked up?
How do I test the NSS wires as a potential issue?
If you've switched to manual and haven't determined what you need to do about the neutral safety switch (and done it), then yes that could cause a no-start. You probably didn't hear any clicking from the starter at all right?
Page 36 of the 2000 Camaro Wiring Diagrams shows either the Park/Neutral position switch (used by automatics) OR the Clutch Pedal Position (CPP) switch between turning your key, and getting the starter moving. I think you need to determine where your actual Park/Neutral switch is and its state (though I think you're right that it's been bypassed in that picture of your shifter). The last pic you have above may be the connector for the CPP (GM would have put it close to a clutch pedal), or it may be another set of wires with the same colors... Time for an electrical test pen/bulb
During your attempt to start, did the PCM log anything useful you could read with HP Tuners?
GM ran that green/purple extra connector near the firewall, but for autos obviously they didnt connect it. There's a small connector less than a foot long that plugs into your neutral safety switch on your clutch pedal that then plugs into that connector at the firewall -- you'll need to find one online or make it. I suck with wiring also so I got one from a guy parting out a T5 car. Its been a few years, but I think that's all I had to connect and it worked fine going from A4 to T56.
However you may want to figure out what is going on with the other end of those cut off neutral safety switch wires just to make sure the wiring isnt all wonky.
Just a quick suggestion... Randomly cutting and splicing wires together without knowing what you're doing or what the wires are definitely for, just because someone on a forum tells you they think they know what they are, is a good way to cause yourself problems. Verify, verify, verify. A GM service manual with actual diagrams is less expensive than undoing an electrical fire.
TBI cars have provisions for the auto neutral safety switch at the auto shifter, or the NSS on the clutch pedal. One or the other circuit (connector) needs to be completed for the starter to crank. With a manual trans most people do that with the switch at the pedal. With the wires spliced at the old auto shifter connector, you'll be able to crank the engine with the transmission in gear, while the car is running, etc; a less than ideal condition.
The "cruise control" cable mentioned above is the shifter park interlock connector. It's part of the system that keeps you from moving the auto shifter out of park when the column is locked, and from removing the key with the car in gear (and locking the steering wheel position while the car is in motion). The right way to fix both issues on a later thirdgen is to install a manual transmission ignition lock cylinder to gain the key release button, and change the ignition switch on the column to one from/for a manual transmission car.
3.1EyeCandy, I dont have a pen test/bulb, does a multimeter do the same thing? Got one for an xmas gift forever ago and never opened it until tonight! Just watched seriously advanced usage guides on youtube on how they work like this one:
(Told ya'll I was super inexperienced with wiring!)
Nothing useful that I can tell with my 30 minutes into HP Tuners, I saw some sensors reading (ambient air temps, etc), and I saw a bunch of ses codes being thrown. TPS sensor didn't move when it was in run and i hit the pedal, dunno if it should though either yet. Watching more youtube and reading docs to try and figure the tool out some more.
Chuck, Ok cool, that makes sense, I'll see if i can find out where those wires go from the plug near the pedal. If they seem hooked up then this looks like the right way to do this. If not then I think I'll break the loop I found in the pic there and extend those wires over to the pedal. Is this maybe the pigtail your talking about? https://www.hawksmotorsports.com/82-...56-conversion/ Looks like it will fit into this thing which looks like what I have on my pedal set: https://www.hawksmotorsports.com/82-...56-conversion/
In theory according to this diagram: http://austinthirdgen.org/mkportal/m..._continued.gif both sets of wires (the hacked ones off the auto shifter, and the set by the pedals) should all head back to the same spots. I dont know where the starter relay is yet, but I'm guessing the starter solenoid is on the starter, so I'll look there for the purple wires.
Drew, 100% with ya on random wire cutting which is why I haven't done any yet! I had a guy assembling the car for me in his spare time and he ran outta spare time, so this is the state I got the car back in. Trying to pickup the pieces and get the car running before I move in a few months here (less than 2 months, yikes!) Ironically I had a big GM service manual and didn't get that back with the car, but I do have the crappy little haynes one.
Is this the right cylinder lock? https://www.ebay.com/itm/23300018074...8AAOSwnLRhQEhu
or this one? https://www.ebay.com/itm/38193175652...UAAOSwUE9ffh7Z
The second one says its an ignition switch too, is that what you are referring to need to swap out?
Btw, can anyone tell from the pic if this is the 4th gen or 3rdgen pedals? I had both sets and gave him both. I had torn the 4th gen set apart and painted it up real nice a decade ago. This set looks less than awesome, so I was leaning with these being the 3rdgen ones, or my memory of my cleanup job was way better than reality.
Thanks all!
Last edited by reborn92rs; 09-15-2021 at 08:33 PM.
Reason: forgot pic
3.1EyeCandy, I dont have a pen test/bulb, does a multimeter do the same thing? Got one for an xmas gift forever ago and never opened it until tonight!
Your multi-meter should have a mode where when the two leads touch, it beeps. This can be used to test connectivity between two ends of a wire. In your case, those purple/green wires near the clutch pedal, and the other set tied together at the shifter, should be equivalent. Use the connectivity-test mode (sometimes referred to as a short-detection mode) on the purple wires (they tie together near the fuse block). Note - do this with your battery disconnected. According to my 87 wiring diagram, the purple wire should see voltage during cranking, as it's tied to the "Crank Fuse" in the fuse block... With power disconnected and your leads touching both purple wires it should beep, meaning that you've found the matching sets and can safely tape off the one at the shifter, and make use of the one at the clutch with the proper CPP switch.
Also - I highly recommend you get a factory service manual for your car (not Chilton's or Haynes). Doing a search on ebay for a 92 camaro Helm service manual I found a book, and a CD. Either would work. With this, you'll be able to view the exact wiring diagrams specific to your year, model, and engine combination car and take most of the guesswork out. What guesses are left, you use the connectivity tester and take good notes!
Last edited by 3.1EyeCandy; 09-15-2021 at 09:12 PM.
Btw, can anyone tell from the pic if this is the 4th gen or 3rdgen pedals? I had both sets and gave him both. I had torn the 4th gen set apart and painted it up real nice a decade ago. This set looks less than awesome, so I was leaning with these being the 3rdgen ones, or my memory of my cleanup job was way better than reality.
Thanks all!
The brace that is clamped in place under the clutch master cylinder bolts says to me those are 4th gen f-body pedals.
Ok, my multimeter skills are slightly improved from basically nothing. I have been trying to work my way around and figure out where things are going wrong. Referencing this diagram here: http://austinthirdgen.org/mkportal/m..._continued.gif
When I try the jumped wire from my auto, or the empty connector I found by the clutch pedal, neither dark green wires gets volts when the key is in the Crank position.
I did rummage around and found electrical tape over a pink wire right under my steering column. When I removed it someone had knicked the casing and exposed the wire which was convenient for me to test with. This pink wire DOES get 12v when the key is in the run and crank positions, so I think this is the PNK to the starter enable relay. It goes up ontop of the steering column somewhere so I'm pretty confident its the right wire. Problem is I cant find where that wire goes to find this 'starter enable relay' in the diagram above and test that. Does anyone know where that is? Assuming its in the car since its interacting with everything else inside the car too.
There was what I think was a relay mounted next to the fuse panel with a dark green wire and the yellow/black in it, but no pink??
Thank you all again for all the help, finally feel like I'm learning something!
Warning... I have not read through the entire Thread!
However, if you are looking for the Pink Wire that goes from the Igntion-Switch to the Starter-Motor Enable-Relay...
You are looking for a Thin 18 AWG Pink Wire.
NOT a thick 10 AWG Wire (that should actually go through C100 and to the Distributor Ignition-Coil and the IPBEC/ Fuse-Panel).
Both the 18 AWG Wire and the 10 AWG Wire meet together at a Splice (S164).
Thank you for the additional diagrams, I'll keep looking for the 'Starter Enable Relay' and try to trace back from there. Any idea where they are usually located? Also how do you know what gauge wire things should be? Are you getting that from the diagrams?
Also have a new problem, the whole garage REEKS of gas. No leaks that I can find but a horrible smell by the rear gas tank area. It is a swapped plastic tank, so I'm wondering if somethings hooked up wrong.
VATS must be disabled both in the PCM tune and in the 3rd gen dash harness wiring. Both are quite simple. Locate the starter kill relay behind the drivers kick panel and connect the two heavy wires at the relay. Depending on year, engine and trans type the colors will vary. One wire will ALWAYS be yellow, and the second either dark green or tan/wht
Is THAT the relay thing I took a picture of above next to my fuses? Can anyone confirm that before I go cut and splice the yellow and dark greens together? Interestingly this might be what I'm after above with the ''starter relay enable', but it looks like I have a thin yellow running to it instead of a pink.
Yup, that's what it is. I jammed a house wire rated for 20 amp in there and it cranked and fired right up!
I didnt expect that to work, but i quickly started a log session and pulled the car out of the garage and held the rpm's around 2800-3200 for cam break in. It runs for probably 6-8 minutes and then suddenly dies, puff of engine bay smoke and the smell of burning electrical. (FYI car originally got parked due to electrical fire/wreck under the hood)
Found this:
Now car wont start.
I checked every fuse under the dash, and every fuse in the box next to the battery all are good. I also checked the two for the fuel pumps, they are fine. I don't know how to check the big black cubes in the engine bay fuse box.
Nothing has power now, instrument panel, no fuel pump in run, no pcm power to read. Is there a giant fuse somewhere that I dont know about that I should look at?
Is there a giant fuse somewhere that I dont know about that I should look at?
Sort of.
The original harness in a 3rd gen has a couple or three fusible links at the main starter terminal. Did that part of the harness get transferred in your swap? If one of those got burnt up with the shorted wires you posted a picture of, it could explain your current situation.
Thanks! Ill go check. In my middle pic above there was a connector on the line that that burned (I taped the burned part with red), I took it apart but it didnt look like anything other than a really complicated connector. Couldnt open the bulk part of it. Thats not a fuse is it? If it is theres no way to get it off the wire without cutting the wire.
Gave the car a wash for the first time in a decade since it was outside, kids helped so its not great but better than it was!
Found it! I was a fusable link that toasted itself down off the starter. Did exactly what it was meant to do, when that wire touched and melted through on the exhaust, this link burnt out and probably saved my car from a nasty fire.
Reading up on these things they are meant to be 4 gauges smaller than the wire they protect. Now looking to figure out what gauge the wire this was attached to was.
There you go. (Who'd have thought...?)
I believe it's a #10 AWG wire. I can't say for certain, but the links might still be available. If not, the bone yard will have a few hundred that you can easily splice in. That's provided you have the tooling and material to make a proper splice (my livelihood actually).
For what it's worth, I've got an engine bay that's almost entirely rewired. The fusible links, all but one anyway, are long gone. I've replaced them (and their incredibly inconvenient location) with proper fuses coming off a binding post at the battery.
Some might argue that the links are the way to go but I'll say there probably hasn't been a fusible link in a modern car for 20 years. I'll go with that.
I completely agree this sucks as far as place to put them! I think the only redeeming factor is since they do burn and flame (lots of youtube watching, how else does one learn these days??) that there's nothing else flammable around them.
If the wire is 10gauge then I need something 14gauge to protect it with right? This looks promising:
I won't use them, as my customers have placed wiring close to fuel-lines in Third-Gens...
If the Fusible-Link goes, it arcs into/ through the fuel-line, and presto caro flamo!
Agreed.
It takes a little finessing of the wiring harness to accomplish this though. Taking power from the large starter stud and running it any length through the engine prior to fusing is also a recipe for a bonfire.
I've a battery positive binding post mounted on in the inner fender right beside the battery. That post is fed with a 12" length of #6. From there I've multiple taps to individual fuse holders of the appropriate size all within a foot of the battery. In the Chevelle, we've gone so far as to add an auxiliary fuse panel in a location that's also close to battery.
Bye bye fusible links.
Vortec, Skinny, I like what you have done, any pics?
A few posts up there's a pic of the eaton fuse box by my battery, could I use the empty slots in there? Or is it more like the pic right of that with the wires into individual fuses? Also, how do you convert fusable link gauge into fuse amps?
This go round I'm just repairing since I'm so close to running, but this is now on the 'after its street legal' list, above 'finish interior'. While I repair I'm gonna try to fish around and see where these leads go in the harness just so I know what they are doing.
Vortec, Skinny, I like what you have done, any pics?
A few posts up there's a pic of the eaton fuse box by my battery, could I use the empty slots in there? Or is it more like the pic right of that with the wires into individual fuses? Also, how do you convert fusable link gauge into fuse amps?
This go round I'm just repairing since I'm so close to running, but this is now on the 'after its street legal' list, above 'finish interior'. While I repair I'm gonna try to fish around and see where these leads go in the harness just so I know what they are doing.
The fuse block next to the battery is the ideal solution. That said, I'm more like the other picture with individual fusing although rather than taking each fuse as separate wire from the battery, which creates a real mess, I have an insulated binding post on the fender. I've only to fuses there but when the go round of upgrades is in the works, I'll replace those with a fuse block and add any main feed from there. I'll try and scoop some pics later.
As for the method, you have to follow the circuitry from the starter and see where it goes. At least two wires (I think #10 gauge red) will make it to the C100 bulkhead connector on the firewall (below the brake booster). Rather than re-pinning the connectors that go into that C100 fitting I left them intact and lifted the wires from the starter post, brought them up to a working level on the firewall, cut off the fusible links, did a quality butt splice (and heat shrink) and extended them to the battery location.
There's a 3rd wire in some (or most) cases that, IIRC, takes care of the HVAC circuit. The same can be done with that. This will all mean a slightly larger harness from the battery to the C100 connector but there's plenty of room for routing and it will also be handling the branch circuitry that comes off of said fuses depending on what you're wiring. I've got my aftermarket fuel pump as well as my ignition box coming from the battery area fuses.
The large 10 AWG Wires going to the C100 Bulk-Head are usually:
-2 or 3 Red (Power Distribution Circuits).
-1 Pink (Ignition Circuit).
-1 Purple (Starter-Motor Inler-Lock Circuit).
The large 10 AWG Wires going to the C100 Bulk-Head are usually:
-2 or 3 Red (Power Distribution Circuits).
-1 Pink (Ignition Circuit).
-1 Purple (Starter-Motor Inler-Lock Circuit).
With the potential of that many circuits, the fuse block idea is looking better and better. Not sure what the full current capacity of the fuse block might have to be, but it's getting up there. I don't think I'd be getting a Harbout Freight Special for that one. A marine grade distribution centre comes to mind. Unless the Eaton fuse block posted earlier has enough capacity. It looks to be a quality piece.
Yes, there are now a wide variety of excellent SEALED Power-Distribution/ Bussed Electrical Center Components/ Parts available.
Since I have a background with GM/ Delphi...
I tend to use Products from Companies that we (Delphi) licensed designs to.
The Terminals and Seals used here are from the Delphi Metri-pack 800 Series and 280 Series.
LittleFuse is 1 of the 2 largest Companies in the 12V - 48V/ Low-Voltage Fuse World.
Cooper-Bussmann is the other Company.
The "Mega-Fuse" Systems are technically a "LittleFuse" design/ product and license the designs and parts to all others.
Cooper-Bussmann is not permitted to use the "Mega-Fuse" name for actual Mega-Fuses.
Cooper-Bussmann (Now owned by Eaton) refers to the Fuses as "AMG" Fuses.
VS
Maxi-Fuses also have the same naming nonsense...
Cooper-Bussmann (The same Eaton that produces Differnetial Parts and Roots SuperCharger Parts) uses the name "Max Blade Fuse":
Thank you all for the great conversation, I will be looking into all these things sometime in the future to try and redo all this stuffs when I am more comfortable and understand wiring. I've been busy packing up the house and repair work in prep for moving out next month. I was able to make some progress on the car in some spare time.
Wiring is repaired and the car ran again! Hopefully video will attach to this, well see. (It posted after I converted it to the worst quality picture EVER)
Re-did the wires that burned, went around ALL the wires near the exhaust and zip tied things as far away as I could. I've also ordered some heat wrap stuffs to put on 2 wires that are closer than I care for.
Steering wheel showed up, posted a thread over in the interior forum about a question on it but got no answers. (Ya'll over here are super awesome!) I think I figured it out, still need to hook up the horn.
So pretending the wiring is suitable for a little bit, next issue is about cooling. I have the stock ls1 radiator in there and I think I had the top two hoses reversed in their functions. I had read somewhere that the vent tube off the engine block was suppost to go to the highest point in the system, so I connected it to the top connector on the rad. The overflow I blocked off because I didnt have an overflow container yet. Well, when I got the car running again I did the rest of the break in run and then the block off hose (6" hose with a bolt in the end) shot off the rad and a jet of water/coolant soaked the entire engine bay. Needless to say that sucked. So I did some more reading about how overflow based systems work, and I think in the below picture I have things setup correctly now. Can anyone verify? I also was off reading Shifty's thread, and totally copied his copied overflow tank idea. Though at the time I forgot I had all the ducting stuffs in the car still, so I had to cut that out as best I could and kept it tight around the tank.
While that was also exploding the power steering pump also dumped its load as well, though I think thats because I overfilled it some and it came out the lid.
I also found the vacuum port on the back of the intake open, when I capped it off (reused my coolant block-off hose + bolt bright idea) the car was no longer able to stay running. Thinking about it I recon since this was open the whole time I did breakin, when I blocked it up the car is now likely insanely rich. So I'm gonna completely reflash the ecu and hopefully that will reset any learned tables. In its current form, it starts, then idles all over the place and dies.
Last edited by reborn92rs; 10-07-2021 at 07:46 PM.
Vortec, Skinny, I like what you have done, any pics?
A few posts up there's a pic of the eaton fuse box by my battery, could I use the empty slots in there? Or is it more like the pic right of that with the wires into individual fuses? Also, how do you convert fusable link gauge into fuse amps?
I used a '90s/'00s GM fuse box, and ran all power for the powertrain through it. Scroll down a little to see how I mounted it.
This might be a viable option for you, and I like it because it doesn't look "aftermarket".
I personally very much like what DixieBandit did to complete his Power-Train swap.
The Electrical portion was done very nicely using newer stock components that work quite well.
The FireBird came out great!
08-14-2021, 10:07 AM
(FYI car originally got parked due to electrical fire/wreck under the hood)
