So this is my first post in decades. I was an OG of this forum when it was super new. I have a 1991 Formula with a built L98 that I used to drag race and I've had it ever since. It has been sitting in my Garage for decades since I got married and had kids and therefore no money. Also moving from Commiefornia to Texas let's me do whatever I want to this car now and not worry about emissions testing and CARB crap.

Update to today: I got into Ethereum back in 2017 and made a crap load of money off of it. I started day and swing trading it after learning Technical Analysis to improve my position and be able to convert it back into fiat for fun stuff.

So now I'm ready to do my dream engine swap on this car and have been doing a lot of research on some other people's swaps. But I'm at a crossroads on what would be the easiest to do for what I want. I'm a professional Dodge mechanic for my day job and very competent so I'm not worried about electrical or mechanical but my fabrication skills are lacking. (I'm a terrible welder)

What would you do if you had $50k to do whatever you want to your 3rd gen? I am torn between LT5 or LSX platform. I want forced induction either way as i used to have an ATI Procharger on my built L98.

What are the best engine controllers? Stock GM with custom tunes are? MoTec? What kind of transmission should I go with? The new 10 speeds? Manual? I want this thing to be good on road courses but be a monster on the drag strip too. I know id want a Ford 9" rear and ill figure out brakes etc on my own but I want to get a plan for the Powerplant.

Help a brother out with your ideas..

 

Road course and drag strip are very different things.

if you want big power with a forced induction deal, you likely wont have good performance at the drag strip with a road race suspension and tire

plus all the cage stuff you’d need if it’s moderately fast. I guess it depends what exactly you want from this thing. Power wise. Any blown or turbo Built lsx worth its salt is gonna be capable of 800+ hp without pushing hard. Which is a 9 sec car for most. But perhaps a simple forged ls with a d1 type blower for 600 whp would be ample? You need to decide how fast it needs to be

fun simple road race deal would be a nice winding natural aspirated deal. 427” or so would be awesome. Still 500-600 whp capable. Plenty fun. More reliable than forced induction

transmission is another big issue. 4l80e comes to mind for a street strip car with moderate power. Not exactly best road race deal tho. Th400 is better for drag and some street use with tall gears out back. Manuals are nice for road race but pricey to hold big power, and clutch for that could be touchy to drive depending what u get.

lots of variables lol

 

You'll go through your money pretty quick, no matter what combination you pick. Here's a curveball for you though...

Get the cheapest (quality) crate motor from GM in the LS6/LQ4 family (6.0 iron block) and pair it with either a manual or automatic that can be controlled by the 411 PCM with a tune. If you want to go even cheaper, get a 5.3 or 6.0 out of a wrecked early 2000s truck/van/SUV without the cylinder deactivation (this may even be preferred if you can get a good wiring harness with it and pare it down yourself). Then get your preferred swap parts (wiring harness, mounts, crossmember, headers, exhaust, accessory brackets, accessories) and get it all into the car and sorted the way you like it. Once you're all said and done, and everything is reliable, then build another motor with whatever go-fast goodies you want (supercharger, more cubic-inches, stupid cam, etc.) and then swap it in and start breaking/replacing other parts (like your rear end) and upgrading non-essentials (like brakes, interior stuff, paint).

Point is - there's a ton of work and time getting a simple setup swapped and dialed in. Doing this takes the giant variable out (big cubic engine with power adder and non-easy cam) and let's you focus on making progress with something to show for it. Then once you're done, or nearing it, you can swap out the motor for something more wild and feel comfortable that the rest of your setup isn't to blame when starting/tuning. And who knows, maybe the simple setup will be so much fun vs. the old L98 you won't even care!

If you're looking to spend all your money, the LS swap is definitely where it's at.

 

Great advice! Love it thanks!

 

Im on the other end of the spectrum

What about a fully rebuilt / refreshed / somewhat modified TPI system? I think they look great and are easy to work on and yiu'll have lots of money leftover. for body / paint / suspension / trans / vacation / whatever etc....LS fans which I just did lol

Pros ae its decently fast and gets the job done / easy and no fabrication / straightforward

Cons are it IS outdated technology, harder to find performance parts (prolly all used) and some regular replacement parts are discontinued.

Or you can do a CARB 350..... its more fun / simple and you can match a bunch of off the shelf parts


LS Pros: faster / newer tech / more parts available

LS Cons custom stuff / fabrication........ / WIRING... at lest around here if you need help fro ma shop they'll look at the car and laugh and tel lyou good luck


OR


you could send it off to HAWKS...I think they do swaps for customers etc from what I can tell.

 

LT swap is still a hassle. Not nearly as easy as an LS swap.

The later models transmissions are too big. There are people that will say they got it in.... but they didn't.... It's hanging out the bottom. Expect to cut up the trans tunnel to expand.

Firebird hood and positive displacement supercharger isn't usually a good mix. I'd be looking at a centrifugal supercharger with the Firebird. Indiana Muscle Car makes Procharger brackets for LS in a 3rd gen, but their website is gone so not sure what to tell ya about that.

Careful with choosing an engine ECM. The whole point of an LT over LS is the variable cam and direct injection. Lose that and you might as well go LS.

 

Unfortunately $50k may not be enough. I'm basically doing a no money option build now. Very few compromises and I still have about $20k to go before I consider it done. A 30 minute phone call with Tony Mamo can cut that 50k in half!!

At the end of the day, do what makes you happy. That is more important when you are driving your car.

 

I would stay away from Direct-Injection for the time being.

When Building the Gen-5 SBC Engines, I omit the Direct-Injection System:


ICT Billet Block-Off Plates installed after removing all Direct-Injection Components.

Then I often use a Holley Intake-Manifold, such as this Hi-Ram.
No matter what, I use "Normal" Port Fuel-Injectors.
Below is the Holley Hi-Ram for Gen-5 SBC Engines, with PORT Fuel-Injection (NOT Direct-Injection):



Also the DOD/ AFM System and Lifters are removed.
ICT Billet Valley-Cover for DOD/ AFM removal, and Direct-Injection removal:






The VVT System can remain, unless a Camshaft swap is going to Happen.
In that case, the VVT System and Camshaft is also removed:

 

Another item to consider given a couple members' recent posts - build something you're actually going to enjoy driving, where you plan to drive it. A couple folks have recently finished builds, only to discover that their car isn't fun to drive on the street (e.g. too much power) and are now looking/looked to sell.

 

It would be good to have some more specific goals in mind. If your car is in good shape body and paint wise, $50k will net you a very nice power train and interior, but you'd be amazed how quickly that goes if you need body work.

A good starting point for you would be a LSA, then mod from there. If you're looking for some good power, a TVS2650 rips. But that's almost $20k without any head work. Plus anything north of 650 rwhp seems to require parts that get exponentially more expensive and complicated. Fuel, clutch, transmission build, cage, exhaust...

 

as mentioned above, if you want it to be a street car, or a performance track car, you will have to choose your parts combinations wisely. I am much less technically savvy than most of the guys who have already contributed to this thread (and many of them chime in on my threads with tech help for me), but building an all around car is a tricky thing. Having something that is optimal for drag racing will leave its pitfalls on an autocross course or road/track course.

Have you looked at the Detroit Speed DSE-Z ?

 

I have been in the middle of a similar build for a long time. By that I mean cost is really no object. Just make exactly what I want.
Brakes alone are going to cost $7k. Big Bear stuff.
I am going with LS3/T56 connect and cruise. All new GM stuff.

Mine will be a quick show car. Maybe see what it can do around an autocross at some point. But my C7 will most likely always be faster around that course.

I am doing 100% of my build. All fab, paint, etc... No formal training, so learning is slow. Currently have the car on a custom made rotisserie for body stripping and priming. Working on custom dash and Dakota Digital VHX gauge integration. Gauge are a grand. Corbeau seats are another, Moser 12 bolt a couple grand, wheels will be $2k a piece, tires are a grand, etc... Adds up quick. I have a nice excel spreadsheet outlining cost and what year I plan to spend. Projected completion sometime in 2023, early '24.


Will update this weekend with current state. Image is from 6 months ago.

Basically just repeating what has been said, figure out what you want in fine detail and make what fits. Do you care more about street fun over drag race? Autocross over custom interior, etc....

 

This is probably the best advice in the thread, and on the site, it is definitely understated
Start building your car on "paper" with the cost of everything with a running total you will have to spend on the parts you want, then when you're all done you can see how much it costs before you start (and don't get stuck in the middle with $0 left). Not only that you can add and adjust places where you think are not as important right away. I would even recommend storing this on a share site so you can reference when the mood strikes, or to others.

I have spreadsheets of ALL my builds for what the projected costs are, actual value of what I have spent, and what the part costs to replace for insurance purposes. I have several projects where the projected costs are in the mid tens of thousands and I decide where I think I can change, or wait to put the parts on at a later time as the budget becomes available.

 

I also recommend this. Do not forget tax and shipping into your cost estimates. That ends up being quite a bit when you spend this much. Just make sure your wife never finds out. It is also nice and depressing to go back and see what you have spent, only to still not be done yet. Project fatigue sets in and having all the costs mapped out helps you visualize the project in a different perspective.

 

Man I felt this SO HARD, "I'm in this and I don't like it"

 

I started with keeping track of my costs. Then I decided that was a terrible idea when it got close to the "wow that's a big chunk of our remaining mortgage" territory.

 

I like tracking on my excel so I can think of ways to pay for big chunks. Bonuses etc... I currently am wife less so I am sprinting to the finish line, haha.

I can also look at the cost of something vs something else and ask myself, "will spend x on y be in my best interest, or is that a knee jerk reaction". I am buying a new LS3/T56 and custom offset wheels, I think those two things will bring me the most enjoyment. Do I need Recaros, or are Corbeus fine. I went with Corbeus based on my excel sheet.

Total cost, spent so far, remaining to spend. Sort by year and starts to give you milestones. Instead of me thinking "oh man I gotta spend X" I think, "ok this year I got $4k left to spend, good I have $5k in my slush fund".
Don't even think about 2022 spending. Just make sure the project is at a state that it is ready for those parts when 2022 gets here.

Many small goals, make huge goals happen.

 

More grossly understated advice

 

Old saying we have is plan it out on paper, total the cost and then double it lol. Thats the more realistic cost

 

Edit: I just realized you pulled a 40,000% return on your investment. I'm going to shut up now because you don't need any of my advice about money!

 

You also have to be honest with yourself about expectations.

Are you the type of person that enjoys building up cars more than driving them? If you truly love the driving aspect, I'd recommend you find a powerful crate engine/transmission combo (or takeout from a later model) and call it a day. Spend some money on some better individual suspension components, chassis bracing, steering rebuild, and some Koni struts and shocks. Spend a bit in the interior to make the driving experience better (e.g. nice seats, new seals and weather stripping, sound insulation, silence all the plastic rattles, etc.) After that you will have a car that is superb to drive.

On the other hand, if you are the type of person that enjoys the project more than actually driving, then buy a bare/short block and build up what you'd like. $50k goes quite a ways if you are only buying parts (finding good deals) and doing all your own work. If you want flexibility of control in your new engine build, you can go with a Hallech, Motec, Megasquirt, etc. and program/wire everything just how you want. There is nothing wrong with whatever route you take, just be sure to take plenty of pictures and document your build here on the forums so we can all tell you what you did wrong, what we love, how jealous we are, etc.

 

So how important is road course vs. drag racing? And what kind of power you thinking?

Drag racing is basically a hobby of intermittently using an engine way above ratings. It's not very damaging because of the short time intervals and single purpose (accelerate). Road course is some serious shizzle though. It's a test of durability and you can't run the engine nearly as hard or you'll wear things out too fast. Engine accelerates and decelerates, trans upshifts and downshifts, gotta set it up different than drag race. Oil control becomes a real problem the more grip your car makes. You don't want the same clutches. You don't want the same tires. You don't want the same suspension. Basically you'll have to favor road race and just put up with it at the drag strip because it's too dangerous to take a drag car to the road course.

I have a friend that tracks a '68 Camaro LS1/T56 at the road course. Here's what I've learned watching him...

LS1 @ 8000 rpm with a face plated T56. In 3 years he lost 2 engines, 1 clutch, and 1 transmission. First engine was lost due to oil starvation in a long turn. Accusump helped with that. But now the car is braking so hard that it's getting air in the oil during decel. Changing to a Dailey dry sump this winter. He pulls the engine every winter and goes through it in detail replacing items that are beginning to wear. Bearings, thrust plate, springs, bushing, whatever. It's constant work, work, work.

Gone through 3 clutches. First one exploded and took out the engine block and transmission. Turns out you don't want straps in a car that decels a lot. Tried a Tilton and an RPS carbon. The RPS carbon hands down is the most well rounded (street, track, drag). Nothing compares.

Paint gets chipped badly at the track. Tires in front of you kick up a lot of stuff. Front of car needs painting every few years. My other friend's autocross Corvette is all beat up on the sides from rocks.

As far as power, the Camaro makes 480 RWHP and he doesn't want more. He can stick it out of corners and it just goes. He's afraid of having more power and breaking traction because it would make the car much more nervous and the driver more tense trying to manage throttle and/or collect it up all the time. Engine has an enormously wide power band and car is lightened to 3200 lbs, so it's quicker than you think. No problem passing C7 Corvettes, runs dead even with 911 S.

Here's the key: None of that bothers him. He doesn't get upset. He's always on top of maintenance. It's just part of the hobby to him.

 

That said, he's ridden in my car and was amazed at the better drivability manners of my 427 with a lot more power. I've had 2 different 427's and I much prefer the one with higher rpm power band. An engine that large has enough bottom end torque, you can't hardly kill it. All you need to do is let the engine breath at high rpm and the car will get faster and faster but drivability won't suffer as much as a smaller engine. So that's another thing to consider as you weigh your options.

Johnson low-travel lifters have extended the rpm range of hydraulic cams. That's a good trick to get some extra rpm's and power out of your LS engine.

Cammotion low-lash solid roller will extend the rpm range even further, and it offers higher valve lift too, but you'll need to check/change the valve springs more often.

And I know I'm talking about n/a engines, but keep in mind whatever works n/a works even better boosted! You can get some crazy good results if you pay attention to details as well as the n/a guys have to.

 

As far as transmission, I might suggest there are only 2 worth considering,

Manual trans: T56 Magnum F. That transmission has made it completely pointless to build a junkyard T56, unless you like spending more money for less capability.

Auto trans: 4L80E. This is the toughest of the LS era transmissions. It will fit in the car. Newer 6 and 8 speed transmissions don't fit in the trans tunnel and the controllers are embedded in the trans itself and it's not compatible with something like Holley EFI.

The other trans that will fit is the 4L60E, but it's not worth the money it will take to match a simple 4L80E. vortecIROC is an expert with auto transmissions, listen to him if he replies. He's not a smart hobby guy, he's an actual top notch pro.

I've been watching the DCT market very eagerly waiting for a modern DCT that I can swap into my car. So far I've not seen anything I'm interested in. There are people adapting BMW V8 DCT transmissions (Getrag ?) but it's not easy. The controllers are serialized to the car and the trans is a big paperweight when removed. Basically people go inside the trans, cut out the stock controller, and replace with an aftermarket controller. It's all very expensive still. And it's really risky trying to tune those transmissions because milliseconds of clutch slip mean life vs. death of the clutch. I'm hoping Tremec releases an aftermarket version of the 7 speed from the Mustang GT500. I doubt the Corvette 8 speed will be adapted to front engine layout.

 

QwkTrip is too kind.

And I completely agree with his Tremec Magnum-F, and 4L80E recommendations.

I only want to add that the GM 8-Speed, was a complete disaster... Everyone should stay away from it.
GM had to give up on the 8-Speed program because it was so utterly terrible (and it cost them hundreds of millions of Dollars).

 

Finally, someone who calls it proper

 

What was everyone else calling it?

I slip-up sometimes and say Borg-Warner, instead of Tremec.
I mean, it still is a Borg-Warner designed Transmission...
But now owned by Tremec.

 

Oops, you're in trouble now... BorgWarner

 

off topic but what happened? I dont like the 6l90 stuff and was hoping the 8 was better. My buddy had an 8 behind his 5.3 and it seemed good.

 

LMFAOOOO
Most people put the T56 with it, but that is wrong, even Tremec says so. It's a Magnum or a Magnum F no T56

 

I guess its TR-6060 based and not T56?

 

Yes. Tremec actually put out a flier or ad or something to say they weren't T56's, lol. The only thing they really share is the case, most of the hard parts inside do not interchange

 

Why didn't you guys just say that you were comparing a T56 to a TR6060?

You can think of the TR6060 as the next evolution of the T56...
However, I know that the Shops that do Face-Plating prefer the T56 Gears, Synchros, and Blocker-Rings.

So in my mind, maybe the next evolution after the TR6060...
Should be a mix of the best Parts from the T56 and TR6060 together.


Well I guess I have another personal project to work on...
I LOVE the Borg-Warner/ Tremec 6-Speeds!!!

 

The 8L Series has been a massive disaster...
Many, many Recalls, multiple Class-Action Law Suits, and no way to fix the many issues with the Transmission.

They usually start vibrating/ shaking... and send metal-debris circulating around everywhere.
This takes out the Torque-Converter and Transmission in quick time usually.

The ONLY reason that the 10-Speed was released in such quick succession...
Is because the 8-Speed was a huge Failure!

GM did NOT learn their lesson when they made the ZF 6HP26, into a cheaper/ inferior Transmission, called the 6L80E/ 6L90E.
So GM doubled-down and cheapened another ZF design... creating the 8L90 Transmission.

The only good thing that came of this...
Was a HUGE kick in the *** for GM!
They got their **** together for the 10-Speed Transmission.

Only time will tell... but the 10L80 should be a very good Transmission (TCM/ Standalone Systems are in the works, so we will find out soon).

 

Wait...
Who thought the Magnum-F was a T56?

 

Posts 24,25,26 of this thread

apparently lots of ppl call it t56 magnum. I always heard that said. I dont follow manual transmission stuff tho but it seems indeed its not really a t56. Its a magnum, and 6060 based

 

if i recall, the 10 spd was a collaboration between gm and ford? Same type trans in the Newer coyote mustang’s? I have seen a lot of highhh hp stuff run great on those 10 speeds. Low 9 High 8 sec Kinda stuff and 700-900 whp latemodels

 

Yes the 10-Speed was a collaboration project with Ford.
The GM Heavy-Duty version is sold as an Allison 10-Speed... but the GM, Ford, and Allison Transmissions are all based on the same platform.

GM has done multiple collaborative Transmission projects with Ford now...
Most notably the 6-Speed FWD/ AWD Transverse Transmission found in Chevy Trail-Blazers (Not good).
As well as a 3-way collaboration with ZF and Ford, for the Longitudinal Transmissions 6L (GM), 6R (Ford), and 6HP (ZF).

There actually has been a significant amount of collaboration projects between the Big-3, since the 2008-2009 Financial-Crisis (including programs with Chrysler for many Vehicle systems).
There always had been some prior to 2008, but not nearly as much.

Since then GM and Chrysler have been actually sharing Technical, and Training Facilities.
I almost recently took a temporary position teaching the 10-Speed to Technicians.

 

I enjoy the build and have two sons that want to help me. So I'm definitely going to be doing as much as possible myself. Plus I've been a professional Tech for Mopar (and GM earlier) since 1998 so I have access to a lot of tools and equipment plus the decades of experience.

 

So after reading all your comments (thank you greatly for your input!) And talking with Texas Speed and Peformance and Anthony at Horsepower Research as well as Justin at Indiana Muscle Car, this is what I have so far. I love pro touring cars and will be building it as such. I already ordered the entire suspension and k member from UMI Performance.

 

Honestly would stay away from factory ls7 heads if thats what is being suggested and just use ls3 heads and ls3 intake. Save some money.

and factor in a lot more money for small odds n ends like fittings, sensors, misc small parts, fuel lines etc

 

In addition to the above post, I would include stuff like tires, brake lines, maybe seats? If you are doing that.

Body/paint of any kind?

Fuel line, dyno tuning time, catch can, didn't see an exhaust for all the way back, just headers. Trans x member. Custom driveshaft too.

Of course anything I am saying is just because I see how much you want to put into the motor, and once you do, a scratched door, dinged fender or cracked dash you lived with will seem way out of place.

In my excel I put links to each item, with exact cost with shipping. This is especially critical for wheels since a 2 piece is different than a 3 piece from company X to company Y, with finish A,B, or C. $1,200 a wheel vs $3,000 makes a big difference when it is x 4.

All that being said, great job getting the plan digitized. Huge first step to making it a reality!

 

I would put a lot more for the fuel system, especially if you're going boosted. I would say $1k minimum. I am looking at almost $3k for my NA setup, but that is expandable and a stainless tank

 

Since LS7 Cylinder-Heads were mentioned...

-The Stock LS7 Heads require a Cylinder bore of 4.1250" or larger (Stock LS7 Cylinder-Block, or aftermarket Sleeves/ Cylinder-Block).
-I personally will not use the LS7 (Especially aftermarket) Heads unless displacement is over 7.0 Liters
(I also do not go to Gen-5 SBC unless building a very large displacement Engine).

As said, the Stock LS3 Heads go a long way.
I personally will most often go to an aftermarket head that I can order a 12 degree Valve-Angle with smaller Intake Ports
(for less than 400 Inches... or when building larger than 400 inches, the Stock Port size and larger is no issue).

 

Guys have put them on a 4.070 bore which a 416 ls3 will have more than likely but it leaves the exhaust valve very close to bore wall. If cam is smaller on lift which it can be with the blower build it can clear and you can run it but its not worth it imo

the procharger you plan to run will probably be a D1 based unit, maybe an F1 but the D1 is the popular one for ls builds. They seem to make 800 whp, sometimes a bit more. You can do that on basic heads, probably even cleaned up 243’s let alone stock ls3 with the stock ls3 intake. Thats why i suggest it, seen it done over and over again, ls3 top end is best bang for buck combination out there imo

 

I should have been more specific, I apologize.

Fitment/ physical contact is not the issue here... Valve shrouding is the issue, and the resulting loss of performance makes the combination a waste of the heads.

 

The detailed cost planning you guys do kind of baffles me. The car is just a hobby and hobbies are entertainment and nothing else. If you gotta carefully track and budget entertainment then you're spending way too much IMO.

 

One thing I might advise is be mentally prepared to lose an engine and do it all over again. It happens.

I'm kind of in a bad position myself because I'm not willing to spend that kind of money twice. If I lose my engine that's it man, I'm done. My last engine I could have replaced if needed. The engine I have now is too rich my blood to do again.

 

The head unit I am planning on using after talking to the tech guys at Procharger and Justin at Indiana Muscle Car both agree on the D1X.

 

Yeah its a good setup. 800’s whp capable for sure. Strong car. Could do a dual 255 or dual 340 pump setup in tank, ideally a 4th gen plastic tank since they have a larger opening. A 450 may do it too on gas, or they have the hellcat 525 may work i think. -8 feed -6 return, activate second pump with wot switch or tps voltage with holley. Good to go