Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
#1
Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
Ok here we go
1987 firbird tpi 305 700r4 ttops Badass looking.
Has an idle issue were the idle hunts around between 650 to 1100 rpm and has significant loss of power. has a gas smell coming from exhaust
this problem appeared out of know were
what i know ........ oil pressure is at about 15 on cluster gauge after warm up. i have heard this is low. But i also know theses thing are inaccurate. goes to about 30 at 2000 rpm When its warm sometimes it takes allot of turns to get it to fire up
The pcv valve makes a rattling noise when car idles and is brand new. i have changed it twice. still no change.
Got a code 44 Lean exhaust o2 sensor. o2 sensor is brand new. Code went away... randomly
No vacuume leaks . checked with carb cleaner
***UPDATE: ALL SENSORS NEW
what I've changed since the problem started.
02 sensor, plugs, plug wires, fuel injectors, cts, tps, maf, Oil pressure sending unit . IAC new! all manifold gaskets.
fuel press. regulator good and
**Get this... when I unplug the EST wire she idles perfect no hunting or loping idle.**
So i am thinking that it has something to do with the distributor .
I love this car i really do but i keep having issues. she might have to go.
any ideas?
1987 firbird tpi 305 700r4 ttops Badass looking.
Has an idle issue were the idle hunts around between 650 to 1100 rpm and has significant loss of power. has a gas smell coming from exhaust
this problem appeared out of know were
what i know ........ oil pressure is at about 15 on cluster gauge after warm up. i have heard this is low. But i also know theses thing are inaccurate. goes to about 30 at 2000 rpm When its warm sometimes it takes allot of turns to get it to fire up
The pcv valve makes a rattling noise when car idles and is brand new. i have changed it twice. still no change.
Got a code 44 Lean exhaust o2 sensor. o2 sensor is brand new. Code went away... randomly
No vacuume leaks . checked with carb cleaner
***UPDATE: ALL SENSORS NEW
what I've changed since the problem started.
02 sensor, plugs, plug wires, fuel injectors, cts, tps, maf, Oil pressure sending unit . IAC new! all manifold gaskets.
fuel press. regulator good and
**Get this... when I unplug the EST wire she idles perfect no hunting or loping idle.**
So i am thinking that it has something to do with the distributor .
I love this car i really do but i keep having issues. she might have to go.
any ideas?
Last edited by lethaldomestics; 12-29-2013 at 04:37 AM.
#3
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
Yes i have tried variouse different degrees of timing no change. The timing seem to advance just a little bit when i rev the motor to about 2000 rpm. But at idle it seems ok. i will do timing procedure again and post more specifics.
I do not know how to data log. but i will look into it.
I do not know how to data log. but i will look into it.
#5
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Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
Actually disregard my previous comment sorry, With the est disconnected the timing is not controlled bye the ecm. With a timing light hooked on if the timing is going retarted unplug the esc. This maybe cause bye a bad maf reading or ecm but without seeing any data you are throwing parts guessing.
#6
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
Esc? elector spark control? is that the same as the est wire? confused a little on this one.
So i am going to re time the motor tomorrow and will get back to you with more info.
So i am going to re time the motor tomorrow and will get back to you with more info.
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#8
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Car: 1987 Trans Am
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#9
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
SO i Checked out the timing
With est plugged in the timing mark is at about the 12 oclock position and bobs back and forth a degree or two almost in tune with the miss. same as when i rev it a little.
With est unplugged the timing mark is at 6 dgrees and bobs slightly imean just barley. and when i rev it it stays pretty solid no movement.
i unplugged the maf while running and the was a slight change in rpm but the problem is still there.
Could it still be the icm?
#13
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Car: '91 Z28
Engine: L98 5.7L TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 323's
#14
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Car: 1989-92 FORMULA350 305 92 Hawkclone
Engine: 4++,350 & 305 CIs
Transmission: 700R4 4800 vig 18th700R4 t56 ZF6 T5
Axle/Gears: 3.70 9"ford alum chunk,dana44,9bolt
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
Quick free checks, pull the vac hose on the fuel psi regulator, look 4 raw fuel in it and also check your base timing with the bypass wire unplugged.
#15
#16
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
CTS is new and no fuel smell coming from FPR.
#18
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Car: 1991 Pontiac Trans Am
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Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
Disconnect egr and plug the vac hoses. See if there is any change.
#21
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Car: 1987 IROC-Z red t-top
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Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
Maf or cts, not the distributor and do you have the small cap distributor? u can rebuild them for cheap. Does it sputter as it rev up? what's the fuel pressure set at? Is the car 100% stock? It's the oil pump relief valve stuck that's why the oil pressure low. I love tpi but it will give u every problem it can throw at u. Google your problems some 100 had these problems as well.
Last edited by Sojer; 08-07-2013 at 10:38 PM. Reason: typo
#22
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Car: 86 z28
Engine: 355 TPI W/305 HEADS
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: 3/73's
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
Maf or cts. Not the dizzy and do you have the small cap distributor. But u can rebuild them for cheap. But its not that. Do it sputter as I rev it up what's the fuel pressure set at. Is the car 100% stock? Its a spring in the oil pump that's bad just get a new pump and pick up. I love tpi but it will give u every problem it can throw at u. Google your problems some 100 had these problems as well
#23
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Car: 1989-92 FORMULA350 305 92 Hawkclone
Engine: 4++,350 & 305 CIs
Transmission: 700R4 4800 vig 18th700R4 t56 ZF6 T5
Axle/Gears: 3.70 9"ford alum chunk,dana44,9bolt
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
Base timing is 6* but if you have a stock chip, it can be more.
#24
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Car: 1987 IROC-Z red t-top
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Transmission: I wish t56
Axle/Gears: 9bolt 3.27 4sale
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
Its not timing and base is 6° btdc rev it high is black smoke coming out
#26
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
drove the car with egr unplugged still no code.
I will be picking up a fuel pressure tester and may buy some stuff from moatas.
I will be picking up a fuel pressure tester and may buy some stuff from moatas.
#27
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
ok did fuel pressure test and i got about 38 psi while running. When i shut it off it goes to zero almost instantly!
Im thinking bad check valve but need opinions...
would a bad check valve cause running issues?
Im thinking bad check valve but need opinions...
would a bad check valve cause running issues?
#28
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Car: 1989-92 FORMULA350 305 92 Hawkclone
Engine: 4++,350 & 305 CIs
Transmission: 700R4 4800 vig 18th700R4 t56 ZF6 T5
Axle/Gears: 3.70 9"ford alum chunk,dana44,9bolt
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
It could be bad but if the fuel PSI stays normal during normal driving don't worry about it.
Most it'll do is extend the crank times a lil bit.
Most it'll do is extend the crank times a lil bit.
#30
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
Vacuum leak.
Do this. PERFECTLY.
(Most mechanics can't do it well, and / or don't know how)
Originally Posted by Schrade
Vacuum leak detection is hard to do right: I know of only one guy who did it right and found a leak (in IAC gasket):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrade View Post
No one got the proper technique for vacuum leak detection...
FIRST (fully warmed up motor); block the gas pedal, or block the throttle linkage. YOU HAVE TO DO THIS TO GET A STEADY IDLE , around 1,250 rpms, or a little higher. If you don't, you can fish starting fluid, a propane hose, or WD40, or Krylon, or hair spray, or pee, anything, until you need a sweater in Hades, but if the motor is lopin' idle already from a vacuum leak, you ain't gonna' find any leak, unless it's so big that Little Jack Horner can stick his thumb in it and pull out a pineapple NOPE.
AFTER you get a steady idle, THEN, you can spray starting fluid everywhere - that's the best detector, because it's vapor pressure is very high - a LITTLE at a time, all around the motor, until you get the rpm SURGE. Follow the vacuum lines to the EVAP cannister too. You might even have to follow the EVAP lines from the EVAP cannister to the gas tank too, but that vacuum leak will show up as a DTC 32 EGR fault, and won't normally show as loping idle, unless the EVAP cannister has been by-passed (been there, saw that uh-HUH yup).
If you get a surge in a tight spot, and can't tell exactly where it is, light a book of matches, blow out the match heads while they're still burnin', and feed the smoke to the tight spot to see it get drawn in.
Fear not the starting fluid; you cannot put the can down fast enough and light the matches fast enough to catch the starting fluid, because the vapor pressure is so high.
Bookmark this post YUP.
Wrench Wizard OUT!
Vacuum leak detection is hard to do right: I know of only one guy who did it right and found a leak (in IAC gasket):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrade View Post
No one got the proper technique for vacuum leak detection...
FIRST (fully warmed up motor); block the gas pedal, or block the throttle linkage. YOU HAVE TO DO THIS TO GET A STEADY IDLE , around 1,250 rpms, or a little higher. If you don't, you can fish starting fluid, a propane hose, or WD40, or Krylon, or hair spray, or pee, anything, until you need a sweater in Hades, but if the motor is lopin' idle already from a vacuum leak, you ain't gonna' find any leak, unless it's so big that Little Jack Horner can stick his thumb in it and pull out a pineapple NOPE.
AFTER you get a steady idle, THEN, you can spray starting fluid everywhere - that's the best detector, because it's vapor pressure is very high - a LITTLE at a time, all around the motor, until you get the rpm SURGE. Follow the vacuum lines to the EVAP cannister too. You might even have to follow the EVAP lines from the EVAP cannister to the gas tank too, but that vacuum leak will show up as a DTC 32 EGR fault, and won't normally show as loping idle, unless the EVAP cannister has been by-passed (been there, saw that uh-HUH yup).
If you get a surge in a tight spot, and can't tell exactly where it is, light a book of matches, blow out the match heads while they're still burnin', and feed the smoke to the tight spot to see it get drawn in.
Fear not the starting fluid; you cannot put the can down fast enough and light the matches fast enough to catch the starting fluid, because the vapor pressure is so high.
Bookmark this post YUP.
Wrench Wizard OUT!
Personally, I'd rather have scratched paint and wrinkled fenders, with a perfectly tuned spinner under the hood, but that's just me...
Last edited by Schrade; 08-10-2013 at 06:51 AM.
#31
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Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
We all (most) know how to turn a wrench but paint and body. Pinch the return line and see if the pressure drops down when u turn the motor off. 38psi running is bleeding off quick is not. If u pinch the line and the pressure stay up its the fpr (I doubt) if it still drops down its an injector (s)
#32
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
We all (most) know how to turn a wrench but paint and body. Pinch the return line and see if the pressure drops down when u turn the motor off. 38psi running is bleeding off quick is not. If u pinch the line and the pressure stay up its the fpr (I doubt) if it still drops down its an injector (s)
I think pinching the line is not as good as capping it with the FPR out of the loop. Pinching can damage the line, you can't tell if you pinched it hard enough to STOP fuel, and it you have, you can damage stuff...
Good job so far.
You might be able to get one on eBay for cheap. BE CAREFUL of what you get. It hsould be about 1,000 pages worth', give or take.
15 psi static FP is no good. It is your STARTING point diagnostics.
Disconnect the FPR, cap the line - not by 'pinching'. Try clamping on a vacuum port cap. COLD motor, in case the cap leaks. Do the test STATIC test again.
Nothing else right now. Period.
You might be able to get one on eBay for cheap. BE CAREFUL of what you get. It hsould be about 1,000 pages worth', give or take.
15 psi static FP is no good. It is your STARTING point diagnostics.
Disconnect the FPR, cap the line - not by 'pinching'. Try clamping on a vacuum port cap. COLD motor, in case the cap leaks. Do the test STATIC test again.
Nothing else right now. Period.
#34
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-OBD1-Scanner-Cable-Software-USB-to-16-pin-ALDL-direct-GM-OBDI-/110845432864?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item19cee71420&vxp=mtr
ALSO !!! will this work for dataloging my tpi?
ALSO !!! will this work for dataloging my tpi?
#35
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
Vacuum is ok i did the test as described above! No leaks.
So which fuel line is the return line?
Also i think my egr solenoid maybe hooked up backwards as the little plastic vacuum holder thingy broke so i cant really tell which hose goes to which point on solenoid ... could this be the issue.
Throwing no codes now.....wtf?
So which fuel line is the return line?
Also i think my egr solenoid maybe hooked up backwards as the little plastic vacuum holder thingy broke so i cant really tell which hose goes to which point on solenoid ... could this be the issue.
Throwing no codes now.....wtf?
#37
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
Vacuum is ok i did the test as described above! No leaks.
So which fuel line is the return line?
Also i think my egr solenoid maybe hooked up backwards as the little plastic vacuum holder thingy broke so i cant really tell which hose goes to which point on solenoid ... could this be the issue.
Throwing no codes now.....wtf?
So which fuel line is the return line?
Also i think my egr solenoid maybe hooked up backwards as the little plastic vacuum holder thingy broke so i cant really tell which hose goes to which point on solenoid ... could this be the issue.
Throwing no codes now.....wtf?
The EGR solenoid might need to be jumped, to fake it into 'draw' mode, and check THERE for a vac leak. ECM I don't think doesn't keep it in the 'draw' command, except under certain conditions...
Exactly what part at the EGR solenoid is broken???
And Carbon exhaust jam can lodge in the EGR pintle, preventing it from closing, also faking a vac leak.
Last edited by Schrade; 08-11-2013 at 12:10 AM.
#38
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
The part that is broken is The piece that holds the two vacuum hoses in place so you have no choice but to hook them up right. its gone. The solenoid in intact.
I unplugged the egr and got same results....not sure if doing this would rule out the egr tho.
so to put it into draw mode i would have to connect the two vac hoses that plug into the solenoid? im just guessing ....
I unplugged the egr and got same results....not sure if doing this would rule out the egr tho.
so to put it into draw mode i would have to connect the two vac hoses that plug into the solenoid? im just guessing ....
#40
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Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
GM OBD1 Scanner Cable Software USB to 16 Pin Aldl Direct GM Obdi | eBay
ALSO !!! will this work for dataloging my tpi?
ALSO !!! will this work for dataloging my tpi?
#41
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Car: 1989-92 FORMULA350 305 92 Hawkclone
Engine: 4++,350 & 305 CIs
Transmission: 700R4 4800 vig 18th700R4 t56 ZF6 T5
Axle/Gears: 3.70 9"ford alum chunk,dana44,9bolt
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
GM OBD1 Scanner Cable Software USB to 16 Pin Aldl Direct GM Obdi | eBay
ALSO !!! will this work for dataloging my tpi?
ALSO !!! will this work for dataloging my tpi?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-OBD1-Scanner-Cable-Software-USB-to-12-pin-ALDL-direct-GM-OBDI/111018956789?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D163%26meid%3D499747789696589186%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D110845432864%26
#42
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Car: 85 Z28 T-Top 36mm sway & wonderbar
Engine: TPI L98 350 W/85 Vette Stage II ECM
Transmission: W/C T-5, alum drive shaft
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt posi, 3:27, PBR's, BB LS1's
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
I keep this useful pic in my photo album.
#43
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
The part that is broken is The piece that holds the two vacuum hoses in place so you have no choice but to hook them up right. its gone. The solenoid in intact.
I unplugged the egr and got same results....not sure if doing this would rule out the egr tho.
so to put it into draw mode i would have to connect the two vac hoses that plug into the solenoid? im just guessing ....
I unplugged the egr and got same results....not sure if doing this would rule out the egr tho.
so to put it into draw mode i would have to connect the two vac hoses that plug into the solenoid? im just guessing ....
Then it will open the valve, and allow vacuum to draw from the EGR [source], into the intake. THEN you can feed the starting fluid near the vac hose that actuates the valve, and allows the draw.
I think this is part of the OEM tests in FSM. Could be wrong tho', and someone will sure post up if I am (and they won't say what's right either see sigline ).
#44
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Car: 82 Z28
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Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
If you knew anything about the TPI setup being discussed here you would know you have to dismantle half the engine to get to the FPR buried under the rear of the intake.
Pinching the lines at the front of the engine is the only viable option
#47
Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
I got a data cable and will data log at some point this week. i will also do another FP test.
Thanks for hanging with me guys! I am learning allot!
Thanks for hanging with me guys! I am learning allot!
#48
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Car: 1987 IROC-Z red t-top
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Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
Return line is smaller line out of the too. And with the gauge hooked u should see a spike in the fuel pressure like 70-90 psi. If it does not spike that u have a leaky injectors. U dont want to take the intake a part u may run into vacuum leaks.
#49
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Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
My egr never worked with me and I didn't have a rich conditions. Have anyone had one
#50
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Car: 92 firebird gta
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Re: Stuck in TPI hell. Please help ! Info heavy.
Were they new or used inj.? I had alot of the same problems and I found it was some bad inj. caused my ecm to go out. My car showed a lean condition and had a bad idle but smelled heavy of fuel out of the ex.pipes. What I found was the bad injectors caused the lean condition. The ecm tried to comp. by making the good ones flow more. That's were the black smoke came from. But the ecm. tring to make the bad injectors fire drew to much power and caused the ecm.to go out. The car still ran but very bad. I would do a test on the injectors to be safe.