After reading up on Willie's twin intercooler setup he designed, I was wondering if anyone knows if the 2 core inter cooler that comes with 9-12 psi version of the P1sc kit will cause overheating problems in the midwest region ???????

While Willie's setup looks absolutely awesome, I would rather not have to go through the fabrication and modification along with relocating extra stuff unless it ia absolutely necessary.

Thx.....Bill E.

 

I was wondering if anyone knows if the 2 core inter cooler that comes with 9-12 psi version of the P1sc kit will cause overheating problems in the midwest region ???????

Two points:
1) Restriction
It is the physical blockage of air to the radiator that causes the engine to run warmer. Yes, the two-core is thinner by design, but it will also restrict air to the high-pressure area in front of the radiator. I can only surmise the engine will run warmer year round.

2)Ambient temperature
I installed my three-core in January (60 degrees or so here). My first test drive was at night when the temp was around 45-50. With a 160 t-stat, my engine ran 180. This was not a good sign. In the summer when temps are in the low 100's, my engine which ran 175-180 prior to the blower installation, now ran 195-200. So my result is a 20-degree increase irrespective of ambient temperature. I'm not sure what your weather conditions are year round, but I'd expect to see the same 20-degree increase. The question becomes: Are you willing to accept this? If you are, then go it.

On a sidenote, I do not know if there would be any temp differences between a Camaro and Firebird. The Camaro has grill openings whereas the Firebird receives 100 percent of its air from below. Would this make a difference? I do not have any quantitative proof.

Willie

 

doesnt the ati kits tell you to wire up the fans to be on all the time because of the blocking of air the intercooler does.

either way i rather have an intercooler than no intercooler.

 

doesnt the ati kits tell you to wire up the fans to be on all the time because of the blocking of air the intercooler does.

Yes, they do. But it is not the way to solve the problem. >> Even with both fans running, the engine will run warmer than "normal". I even installed two pusher fans to help the factory pullers. It helped somewhat, but my engine temps were still uncomfortably hot, especially in the summer.

Willie

 

Willie,

Sincerely appreciate your input on this.
Not completely up on your setup but aren't u putting in about 15 psi of boost ? I have no plans to go beyond 9 psi on my stock car.
More boost equals more heat ? Right ? I would think this would make a significant difference in engine temps ? Thx

Bill E.

 

I've never been overly impressed with ATI's intercooler designs… they're huge and block a lot of air for the amount of actual heat exchanger area. Considering that I'd guess that the fans running all the time is not a question of engine temp (it shouldn't make any difference at what the maximum temp the car reaches), but what it will do is force airflow through the IC no matter what the engine temp is in an attempt to take care of heat soak in between hard passes…

 

Not completely up on your setup but aren't u putting in about 15 psi of boost ?

With my prior D1SC, I recorded 14-psig boost @ 5,200 rpm.


I have no plans to go beyond 9 psi on my stock car.
More boost equals more heat ? Right ?

A valid concern. My observations (stated previously) are at normal driving conditions. That means stop-and-go, light-to-moderate acceleration, and cruising at 40-50 mph. By no means was I even close to being in a boost condition.


I would think this [level of boost] would make a significant difference in engine temps?

I was also wondering about this. Question: Why was my engine temps higher than normal? Was it because of:

1) Hotter air running through the pipes/intercooler, or
2) Restriction to the radiator?

I performed a simple experiment. Before removing the IC, I ran the car under normal conditions without the blower. That means the air inside the pipes & IC were at ambient temps, not artificially raised by the blower. Result: Same engine temps. Secondly, I removed the IC. Result: Noticably cooler engine temps. Conclusion: The temperature of the air passing through the IC does not seem to dictate (at least noticeably) engine coolant temps. However, removing the blockage (IC) resulted in a noticeable drop in engine temps. There ya have it.

Oh, and since I installed the twin setup, my coolant temps have remained lower. Bill, you might want to reconsider going with the twins. Today, there are guys out there who have done it on a Firebird. Tap them for info on exactly how much fabbing there is to do. You might be surprised. It's not difficult!!!

Willie

 

Willie,

One final question, what was the difference in engine temps you gained from a single 3 core to the twin IC ????? THX

Bill E.

 

One final question, what was the difference in engine temps you gained from a single 3 core to the twin IC ?????

On a typical 60-degree day (for example) with a 160 t-stat under normal driving conditions:

No blower, no IC: 165
No blower, 3-core: 185
Blower, 3-core: 185
Blower, twins: 165

 

Just finished installing my D1-SC and 3 core IC, haven't run the blower yet, but did notice an increase in my coolant temp during the first day (today) of NA driving probably ~10* jump in ~5 mile trip.

Also due to my car being a little tweaked and probably my poor install, the IC doesn't completely block the passage to the radiator (i.e. still ~6" between IC and airdam), but just the airscoop on the IC blocking the airdam seems to do a good enough job of blocking airflow.

I have an '89 Trans am GTA.

 

I have a 3core on an 89 GTA, even with the fans on all the time it killed air flow to the radiator. I have been working on an engine swap and am putting in a huge summit racing radiator and twin spal fans. I am also going to reposition the intercooler to prevent the loss of air flow. In a stock application you will notice the increased temp, but with a couple of mods you can get around that and have a more reliable cooling system

 

good luck getting the bigger radiator in. I had a charged air radiator and the upper radiator neck ran right into the blower pulley.

 

Live in midwest.....Kansas City area...

160 or 180 thermostat with corresponding fan temp sensor running this 1PSC ATI intercooled setup ?

If I was in AZ like Willie I would go with the 160 for sure, but I feel I might like to get her out on a nice day in late fall or early spring and feel the 160 would be to cool for the car and ME.

Have a 160 in another '87 TA seems too cool to me.....I remember seeing some info about a 160 thermostat did not allow the engine to warm up enough to not cause some extra wear and tear for a lack of better terminology.

With this front mount intercooler setup I want to be cooler than stock like the 180 but feel the 160 is too much in the midwest ?

Your opinions please.....

Bill E.

 

I run a 160*t-stat and a 175* fan switch the car, on cool days it still runs around 180*- 190* unless i'm cruising down the interstate @ 70 mph. the weather herein Mi. is close, maybe a tad cooler then KS. and it's enough to keep ya warm.

 

Dont worry, their are other things you can do to help run cool if even this is a problem.I have run a p600b with,but with no ac condenser and the fans comming on at 160 and couldnt even get the temp over this. I would run at least a 90% water in the radiator with water wetter(for the summer only) .Run a 160 thermostat and drill 4 holes on the outer lip to promote flow to keep the temps down. I also run a big oil cooler which help keep engine temps down as well, alot.My oil cooler holds almost a quart if not a quart plus the lines to and fro,plus the line into the blower and the bigger oil filter I run you can add a lot of extra capicity to the motor to help keep temps down without running a big pan.A high flow water pump or a stocker with the bypasses blocked off will also help to in keeping the motor cool. I also have a cowl hood so this helps circulate the air under the hood.One thing to consider taking out is the splash gaurds that were in place when your car was stock, I completly gutted all this out.I really dont think the twins are nessacery where you live, if at all. Its a quite a great fitting setup with the 3 core and you should have no problems with over heating if you can try a few of the tricks I mentioned here.

 

Granted I live in extreme heat in the summer. When it's 100+, normal operating temp for my engine with the three-core was 200 on the highway and 220+ in town. And that's WITHOUT the A/C. I'll admit that I was scared to see how much hotter the engine would run with it, so I never tried it. In the midwest, it's not often but I've seen temps reach 100+. All the coolant system mods described above I've done. I run 90 percent water, use WaterWetter, drill holes in my 160 t-stat, block the bypass in the water pump, use a Stewart water pump, etc... Oh and that's with my coolant fan system I call Total Fan Control (have you seen my tech article on this site?).

Bottom line: If you're okay with the fact that your engine will run up to 20 degrees warmer all year round, there's no problem. I was not warm and fuzzy about this, especially the fact that I couldn't use my A/C on the hottest summer days. Kind of self-defeating, wouldn't you say?

Willie

 

Bottom line is to each his own. My car never ran 20 degrees hotter than stock it actually ran cooler in the summer months of 90degree weather vs stock with all the before tricks mentioned(but stock I had the ac).I dont know whats the big deal the car is designed to run 200 degrees, my car in New England always ran around 200 ,around 220 with the ac on. The factory fans were set up to kick on the second fan at 220 when the ac was turned on, the car runs a 190 thermostat stock. Like I said I have a cowl hood, no ac I took the condenser out from in front of the radiator which in my opinion is probably one of the spots you may need to check since when I removed it to take it out I found alot of leaves,road garbage, dirt and ciggerette butts stuck in the fins and wedged in between the radiator. Get the 3 core and try all the little tricks mentioned here.Where you live Jetmeck Im sure it doesnt get 100+. Twins add another 200 -300 to the price of an already high priced kit.( dont know exact pricing , but list price puts the 3 core at $1150 and the twins at$1350 or so.If you feel 220 is to hot complain to Gm they designed the cars this way.An oil cooler is a cheap mod you can do($50 -60 B&M) that will make a huge difference in keeping the temps down as well, no ones touched on this,it works and helps, alot.

Just to reidderate, 160 therm, drill 4 holes around the outside lip, block off the bypass on the water pump,run all water with water wetter or 90% water 10% glycol+ waterwetter. Big Truck oil filter, will add about another half quart to engine capacity,plus get a oil cooler, easily adds anotherquart to the mix for a total of 6 1/2 quarts in the stock engine.Get the B& M oil cooler the ,cheap piping through the fins is junk and doens t do anything, B&Ms is a radiator design, and the oil spends more time in the cooler getting cooled.Get a Fan switch, one that kicks on at 175, and wire the secons fan in series with the first.Although not a cheap mod but if you have a cowl hood it helps greatly circulate cool air under the hood, plus is helps get cool air into the intake of the supercharger.Most of the overheating will come from the heating of the oil. Under boost the heat in the chambers is tranferred to the engine oil.Plus if you have headers, if they are coated they help keep alo of the heat out of the engine compartment.Uncoated steel and especially stainless, transferr alot of heat into the engine compartment.Just a few things to consider.

 

Just an update on my install. Severe over heating with the blower, 180* stat, some black plastic ducting left behind the bumper cover and only one cooling fan on. Think 250* within 3 miles of driving.

Removed all the plastic shrouding that was under the bumper cover, but not in the way of the install. Put in a 160* stat and 4 1/16" holes. Now takes ~5-10 min to reach ~180* (used to be ~2 min) and will reach 220+* rising slowly after ~15-20 min of driving (~7-8 miles) 40 mph stop and go kinda stuff.

Obviously getting the 2nd fan to turn on will help, but I've been kinda busy with other stuff to figure out which relay it is. I'll make another post once I get the 2nd fan running.

I'm running ~8-10 psi btw.

 

OK, I've been staying out of this, but I can't resist:

the big deal is that the reason that the car is designed to run in the 200-220 range is not for power or durability, but for emissions. Running the engine cooler will result in a cooler intake charge, more power and better long term durability if it's used hard.

Drilling one or 2 small holes in the outside lip of the thermostat prevents air bubles in the system. Drilling more then that just bypasses the thermostat with some of the flow. Unless you live somewhere warm all year you do not want to do this, and if you do live somewhere that warm you could get away with not running a thermostat.

I'm assuming that you mean the line that goes to the heater core from the front of the manifold and then back to either the back of the pump or the outlet side of the radiator? Don't do that unless you're not running a thermostat and what are you going to do for heat in the winter? BTW, there's a second bypass that will take up most of the slack if you block this one drilled into the passenger side of the block.

Just run a jumper between the signal/ground connections on both relays… that way if one fan turns on, both will.

This will help if you're sitting in traffic, it will actually hurt at speed.

Not true unless you've filled your block with block rock. The heat from the upper end, chambers and probably the top 2/3 of the cylinders is mostly absorbed into the water jackets.

Stainless will lower under hood temps, but not as significantly as coatings and wraps…

 

I understand your response but I did this long before anyone here. I had one of the first ATI kits in 1996 on a TPI camaro. I drove it for almost 3 years with 0 problems.12.60 at 111. It ran cool and I never even came close to overheating. I actually had to run more glycol to bring the temp up some. I know what works Ive done all the mods this is old news with the ATI kits.When I say block off the water pump bypass ,usually experienced people will know Im talking about removing the pump and blocking the lower hole on the block which water flows through as a bypass.Drilling 2 holes help water flow before the thermostat opens, drilling 4 helps flow more, not even close to having no thermostat though.You need to wire the second fan to the one hooked up to the fan switch in the passenger head.Buy a Hypertec low temp fan switch and this will make both turn on at 176 off at 166 part # 4026. This is by far the most important mod you can do to get the motor temps down.The factory will still turn the fans on at 200 no matter what else you do. The fan switch controls the second fan and turns it on at 220 to help cool the motor down in hotter months.Get the switch, wire the fan that works off the switch in series with the computer operated fan .THis will turn both on at the switches 176 temp.Try this then get back to us.

 

You need to wire the second fan to the one hooked up to the fan switch in the passenger head.Buy a Hypertec low temp fan switch and this will make both turn on at 176 off at 166 part # 4026. This is by far the most important mod you can do to get the motor temps down.]

I was told on another post that the ecm would automatically turn on the second fan when the lower temp switch controlled fan was turned on ??? Which way is it ? Need to be wired together or not ? Thx


Bill

 

The switch in the passenger side head controls the second fan. This is ,I like to put it, a backup plan if the first fan doeasnt work to cool the motor or the engine is getting to hot.Im pretty sure the switch in the head turns on at 220. If you get the hypertec switch for the 176 turn on and off at 166 you can try this first, but you will need a 160 therm. Try this and if this doesnt work to cool the motor enough, wire the computer controlled fan to the one that works off the switch, making both work off the switch. Im not sure of the wiring as I havent done it in a while . In regards to the twins cooling the air more than the 3 core ,I do think their is merit to this but not in terms of the twins being more efficent. From the pics Ive seen ,you have way more plumbing on the twins thans on the 3 core, this in it self contributes the the air spending more time in the piping.The way I look at it the whole system after the blower up until the supercharger I consider the intercooler,which means piping and all.Tranny cooler works off this premise.Their is just more area in the twins because of all the piping ,giving it the advantage of cooling the charge for a longer period.Try the switch stuff and let us know