Here is a link http://www.optionimports.com/apexivtecafc.html

Would someone wanting to use an FMU have one of these . Where is something like this practicle? I have a turbo setup already , but am new to all the gizmo's and stuff.

I so far have chosen to go with an FMU for fuel managmeent . SOOOooo What I was going to do was get a sump put in the bottom of the stock tank .... then run a T in it and have two external fuel pumps . The reason I chose this is .... because lack of knowledge first off , I just havent seen the different ways to do it yet . Is my idea ANY good ? Or I was gongi to get some 255lph intank pump ....THEN an external pump with the FMU . Someone suggested once "to run a sump in it and be done with it " ..... so I think understood what he ment by that .

Any input would be appreciated .

 

No that item is intended for a VERY different purpose than an FMU.

The AFC doesn't work very well at all for even it's intended purpose.

 

The one in the link is for Hondas w/ Vtec. But I think I know what you are asking. The difference between those types of units and a FMU is that those types of units interface with the ECM, while a FMU does not. So you can either have a ECM that is "smart" and knows you are boosting, or you have one that dosnt know you are boosting and then you have some other means to control fuel. You could think of it as electrical versus mechanical. Both work but an electrical system that is "smart" will be more accurate if tuned properly and using the right sensors in the right modes. The FMU which would be the mechanical variant will also work, but instead of having the ability to react to any changing conditions on the fly, it will always deliver the same ammount of fuel per psi of boost. This dosnt necessarily mean the FMU is junk, its just two different ways of achieving the same goal. I myself do not like FMU's and I'll be swapping it out soon enough w/ a 749 ecm and 58$ code.

When someone says to sump the tank and be done with it they mean to have it sumped and then run a single huge pump. Running the dual pumps does work, but now you have the possibility of 2 pumps failing instead of one. This is what happened with my 91Z once, the secondary pump power connection rattled loose and it took me a long time to figgure that one out. In the future I'll be going to a sumped tank as well with a single Aeromotive pump in the rear.

 

The only reason I was thinking of doing the two pumps is because I figured you NEED an independant pump when running an FMU . Can I get away with sumping the tank and running only ONE pump with an FMU controlling it aswell as the ECM ? Or is an FMU and a second pump kinda a package ....and you HAVE to run two pumps.

I am only running the FMU for starters ... I can't wait to drive it so I don't mind running one for the beggining ....once I am used to it a bit I will upgrade it . My main concerns are only the safety of it all ...

I appreciate the comments

 

For some reason, I see alot of broken parts in your future.

Do some research on what a t-5 is capable of, then do a search of what your stock rearend is capable of, once you have that fixed then you can move on to a big fire breathing 600HP motor. No offence, but your asking alot of basic questions, which means you really need to stay away from turbo's and big power.

 

Maybe by letting the guys know exactly what you have and what you are wanting to do would help. I didn't really understand the question. You may already know this but a mechanical FMU does not control the fuel pump it only raises the fuel pressure in relation to boost by cutting off the fuel in the return line leading to the gas tank. This kind of FMU tends to raise fuel pressure very high so you will need to set up the fuel system accordingly. It doesn't matter how many pumps you use just so long as your pump can provide enough fuel at extreme pressures. I'm am currently having fuel problems with my car, so for now I am going to install a walbro intank pump along with an external inline pump. Eventually I am going to swap out the ecm and get rid of the fmu. Hope this helps

 

Of course you see alot of broken parts in my future ....it's the nature of the beast ..cars

T-5 wouldn't even take my lil 305 TPI . It's brand new inside Shattered 2nd gear , input shaft was shot , etc ) the rear end I know has only a limited life aswell ( heck it's not even the 28 spline 10 bolt ) . I figure I am going to keep the stock clutch ( for a nice weak point and only run street tires . the rearend will be fine for just cruiseing around on.


What is all this mess I am trying to learn welll. ..
TURBO
The turbo is a 62-1 trim with A/R .70 on the compressor side, 4" dia inlet & 2.75" outlet. The Turbine side is a "P" shaft with A/R .81 tangential housing, TO4 inlet and 3" V band exhaust.

The wastegate is factory calibrated to regulate boost at about 9 psi thats the turbo and wastegate.


MOTOR
L98 .020 over stock heads studded 1.52 Magnum rockers . Forged flattops ( 9.7:1 ) <---want to switch to 74 cc heads instead of 64 .

The reason why I may ask some really basic stuff is .... I started at the begining here ...by reading Turbo chargers then Maximum boost for starters . I come here and try and read relivant posts . LIke the 87 turbo TPI thread ...and the one about the Gent from sweden that is buiding a monster .

This kit I got from BBS turbo's . I bought it knowing JACK aobut them ....just knowing I like them better than a supercharger. It claims 650 hp ..... on the stock motor . I hate to bug them with every little question so I come here and read , pop the odd thread up like this .

Now thats kinda an **** thing to say . But I don't mind ..you really don't know much about what I been doing ...so it's to be expected . I got alot of the theory stuff in my head . Like A/R , P/R , boost threshold , I/C efficiency , how to pick a compressor , how to pick turbine , etc ...and how to calculate them all ( thanx to the books and here ) . SO now that I got all the theroticall stuff leaned( not mastered... but I no where to get the answers ,I can referance it ) now I am trying to learn the hardware

I have alot of really Noob questions , but am too affraid to ask for fear of advice like quoted above ( don't ...stay away , etc)

Now as far as the FMU stuff goes ....

I thought that they upped the preasure to the pump to give increased flow based on a boost referance from the turbo. I seen the regulators that are boost controlled . Is that What I hook the FMU up to ? I thought it was only to the pump ...not any return line .

Car purpose ?

Well I want that 650hp ish car .... 11 second 1/4 ...all smogg equiptment on it still ( BBS is going to fab me up a system ...to replace the one I alread have ) I want it to be able to sit and idle in traffic at 30C+ in a trafic jam without fear of overheating at all . It can't be a bugger to drive . Finally it MUST pass a etest up here.

I appreciate ALL the help/suggestions you guys have .

 

Didn't mean to sound like an ***.....I still did. I'm just trying to save you from ending up with an undrivable mess that you won't enjoy. It's no fun throwing money hand over fist at a car just so you can drive it another week and break it again. It's no fun, and expensive.

With your experience level, making 650 HP is going to be pointless, because your probably not going to make it out of the driveway with this thing. Your not going to pass smog, your rear end and tranny aren't going to hold up, those are FACTS. I didn't mean to take a dump in your cherios, but what I'm telling you, if you take it to heart, is going to save you money and keep you having fun with your car. I see it way too often, people get blinded by the wood factor that turbo's and making 650HP provides and totally ignore comon sense things like....well is the bottom end of my motor even going to take this for more than 3 WOT blasts?

My experience with DIY prom tuning tells me that making triple the stock HP with FI takes lots of planning, tuning and parts. It also tells me that passing smog is not easy at all. My experience with 7.5" GM rear ends tells me that you can break them with street tires and less than 200 HP no problem, same goes for t-5's.

I'm not saying that your not allowed to make HP, I'm saying you need to cut your teeth on something else first. Build a bottom end that will take the abuse of 600+ hp, put some good heads and a mild cam in it and then get it to pass smog. Learn what it takes and get a feel for what type of tuning it takes to pass. In the process you'll make over 300 hp and learn about the weakness' of your drivetrain. Once you upgrade your tranny and rear, then you'll be ready to use all that turbo knowledge you've been acrewing. If your still dead set on doing a turbo now, I'll rattle off a list of parts your going to need to get it to even move under it's own power.

 

Fire away man . I know it can all break and stuff. I really don't mind . I knew a guy that almost tossed his T/A into the wall because of a week rearend . I DO plan on upgradeing tranny AND rearend at a more $$convenience time I am thinking 12 bolt .... and not sure on the final tranny I wanna use either a G-force T-5 ....TKO ....or a built T-56 . I also plan on maybe a BMR trackpack to help with traction , etc . I don't see why you really think it will be a bugger to get running , etc. I have a PRominator PRO to tune the stock ECM ( 165 ) . Sure it's not optimal but it will work for now ...with an FMU ( feedback ?) I am baseing alot of faith on the fact that BBS turbo got their project car ( stock L98 GTA ) to get 537 to the rearwheels with nothing exotic to do it . What do you feal is hampering this setup to make NOT run ? Just turbo related stuff. Not suspension clutch tranny and all that ..... I just need the motor/turbo stuff .

at least try not to sound happy when you say it sucks ..or won't work , etc okay .....I wouldn't take pleasure in your misfourtunes . BTW What are you runnnig for a turbo ? I'd love to hear about your experiences . By putting it here others may learn aswell .

 

No turbo here I know my motor and my wallet won't take it. I'm trying to stay light hearted on the subject. I'm not laghing at you, just trying to get the gears turning in your head.

It's VERY good that your into DIY chip tuning. I would have never guessed you would be considering you were looking at a piggyback fuel controller.

The MAF sensor you have will only read up to 255 grams per second. This works out to about 350-400 hp depending on your BSFC. Above that and it's blind. You'll need at least 60 lb injectors. The FMU is a bandaid, some have gotten it to work, but it's very hard to do right. A 749 ecm that runs Syclone, typhoon code that is speed density based, this particular code uses a 2-bar map sensor that can see boost. This will negate the need for a FMU. Your going to need a monster fuel pump, a walbro 255 is rated for around 550-600 hp, less for forced induction because they need richer AFR's. So your options is to run two of these in parrallel to get your needed volume, or get big pump from aeromotive (lots of $$).

Engine wise, stock cast piston aren't reliable above 400 hp, get into detonation one time and BOOM. Stock rods are good for about the same. Stock crank will take 500 or so, but will fatigue quickly at this level. A complete forged bottom end would be smart. Your looking at around 1500 if you do some smart shoping.

You can push more through a stock bottom end, but it won't do it reliably like you want to. Car craft did a cool article a while back where they pushed 350 hp worht of nitrous through a bone stock 350 and made over 600 hp, it lasted for 6 runs before it blew the pistons to smithereens.

Smog is going to be tricky, in theory your motor should act stock when your not in the gas, but theory rarely works out in the real world. Being able to tweek things in the chip is going to be essetial. Your best bet would be to make friends with a smog station and have them run test while you fiddle with your AFR's and timing.

I'm sure theirs more I'm forgetting, but thats off the top of my head. Here's a quick recap with $ amounts.

injectors 200-300$
fuel pumps 220-500+
ecm 75-150$
forged bottom end 1200$
balance job 250$

 

Thanx . I just plan or running this motor first ..whatever happens ...happens. I was thinknig on sumping the tank and running two Aeromotve A1000 pumps. 60 lb injectors eh ? Good enough . The reason I am running the FMU is just the fact I am a little intimidated at going right from a 165 ECM ( MAF ) to the sdpeed density 749 . There is ALOT of repinning to so . It would have been better to start off with the 730 for a starting point ....less to mess with . SO I will settle for the less optimal setup of the FMU . Sure it may sound a bit wacky to use the FMU WITH the tuneing ....but I can mess with it a bit to make things "better ". I plan on some Wideband O2 testing before I get to a Etest facility . Thing I like about the prominatorPRO I can have 8 bins there to choose from ( I would try and create an optimal one for JUST the etest day ) and run a different one more for drag raceing ...at the track .

I realize the MAF will not do what I need . But BBS turo got 537 RWHP with a STOCK MAF L-98 . I understand I need better injectors , better way of reading the air comeing in ( MAF >SD w/ 3bar MAP ) so I am trying to recreate their results I suppose .

Now about the FMU again . I am not sure if I get this but .....
You only need one pump ( regardless of flow needed I just want to know if I need an independant pump for the FMU ) or is the second pump manditory in an FMU setup ?

 

An FMU is just a fuel pressure regulator that raises fuel pressure in relation to boost. A 1to1 FMU raises fuel pressure 1 psi for every psi of boost 2-1 is 2 psi of fuel pressure for every 1 psi of boost....and so on. A single aeromotive pump will feed your motor, you don't need two. There really isn't any reason to "sump" your tank. Just remove the in tank pump and put your aeromotive on the frame somwhere. There are baffles in your stock tank that will keep gas from sloshing around just like a sump will. You won't need more outlets that a sump provides, but you may need to upgrade teh size of the fuel line.

Tuning wise, you'll have your hands full. Big injectors require a good bit of tuning to work correctly. The turbo is also going to really change how your motor runs at part throttle. On a scale of 1-10 I rate this project a 9.5 on the difficulty of tuning. I've been tuning for 3 years and I would be worried about making this thing drivable and passing smog. There is more to it then just having the proper AFR's, a 5 gas anylizer is essential. I have no doubt you'll be able to throw enough fuel at it to put down big numbers like BBS did. There's ALOT more to it than that when comes to making it run smoothly.

It would be VERY interesting to see what BBS did to make those numbers on a "stock" motor.

If your not worried about the stock bottom end, then I stand by my "I see alot of broken parts" prediction. If your not worried about it, I'm not. Just don't be surprised when a rod smacks you upside the head.

 

So I CAN get away with only one pump with the FMU . Good to know . As far as the other stuff holding up .... I don't plan on cranking it up untill I got some other stuff put in . As far as just takeing out the intank pump ....and putting an external one on the frame or somewhere..... I don't need to do anything to the sending unit ? Just leave the void where the pump once was ? Also this car isn't a 1LE so I am not sure if the tank is baffled from the factory ( or am I confuseing it with the 360 swivel sending unit ) ?


Thanx again for the tips .

 

Yes you have to put something back in place of the in tank pump. Usually a piece of tubing will work. You may be able to just run the new pump inline with your stocker, I'm not sure if it would be a restriction or not.

If you don't plan on cranking it up....then why go through the trouble of installing all this stuff? I'm just having a hard time comprehending your logic here. It sounds like to me you’re just dead set on having a turbo under the hood even if it doesn't work right. What fun is it to say that your have a 600 hp camaro, but you can't use the power because your motor has too much compression to run any kind of boost, and even if you were able to you would twist the bottom end into little tiny pieces, and if by some miracle the motor survived the tranny and rear end would probably disintegrate into little tiny pieces, and if by some other act of *** they held up you would just be able to blow the tires off to 100 mph.

You’re just going at this all wrong.

 

I am VERY anxious to drive it ...thats why . . It;s only a hobby car , whatever happens happens . You really think this thing's gonna blow as soon as I start it .... There was someone running a stock bottom end on here ....forget the name , but I just figured I can toss it on ....be gentle ....then just go and upgrade as chit breaks. As you say you were curious how my turbo company got them numbers .....well I figure if it's only running 4-6 PSI . I still got a car I can drive ...but just made it a little faster . Then I can make it faster as it gets stronger
I don't think the driveline will fly apart as long as I keep the stock clutch and , run street tires ( feedback ? You agree ? )

 

If it's just for fun, go for it. I have to drive 2 hours to a track, and drive 400 miles a week to work, so I can't afford to have my car down for long. I have alternate means of transportation, but they aren't near as fun as my car.

I've had my experiences with breaking parts, and frankly it's not fun and it sucks thinking every time you floor it something is going to blow apart. I broke 3 7.5" rear ends with a stock 305, all it took was a little axle hop. I shreded 3 700-R4's with 300 HP, before I finally found a tranny guy that knew his *** from a hole in the ground. I'm tired of driving a fragile piece of junk, everything I do now has strength and durability in mind. If I had done it right the first time, I would have a much faster car by now.

 

Dude, that's awesome. Tell him to save the jigs for your turbo setup as I may need a setup like yours as well.

Wish I could offer more advice, but I'm new to turbocharging myself.

Stock parts should be fine as long as you baby it. My cousin is running a turbo setup on his stock L98 and no problems yet for 20,000 miles. He just babies it and has an occasional stoplight war where he'll demolish just about anything that lines up against him, but the engine hasn't blown yet. All engines are different though I guess. With factory tolerances, some engines may live longer than others.

 

This guy has you covered !BBS turbo