Aperion is 100% correct. A wideband will not save your engine in the event of a nitrous system malfunction while going down the track. Think of how many times that piston is moving up and down in the cylinder at 5k+ RPM and how long it will take you plus the gauge to react in the event of a failure.

As for the fuel pressure, depending on the setup some systems do not increase fuel pressure at all. They just feed the fuel jets off the existing plumbing. "More injectors" at the same PSI = more fuel.

 

let me guess diggler your one of those ol timers that don't understand how to use the new technologey so what you don't understand scares you right ? lmfao ....

it's a shame people become closed minded an not open to new technology an new ways of doing things . lucky chevy 's not like that or they wouldn't be rolling out the new ZL1 camaro with 580 hp supercharged hp . an i'm sure the computer moniters the 02 sencers wich is what a wideband does . come to the year 2012 where stock 4 cylinders are raping stock third gens . lmfao

 

Or better yet, where is the wideband located? Is it reading just one bank? Is it in the y pipe reading all 8 cylinders?

In any case, an average of 4 cylinders could mask a problem. one cylinder can be very lean while another one is pretty rich and you'd never see that problem with the wideband.

I've seen this on my 383. cylinder 1 ran lean while cylinder 7 ran RICH. Same bank, 1 sensor, 1 air fuel reading that looked all fine. But I had a air fuel distribution problem.....

 

I still vote both.....

 

I'm not saying that they aren't invaluable tools for tuning. I in fact am all for having both in my ride. But in this case I doubt they would have saved the OP's engine from damage.

 

Both is fine. Use a wideband for tuning all you want. Just don't delude yourself that it's going to save you if something goes wrong during a run.

 

friend of mine roasted 2 pistons in a 383 the same exact way. 2 injectors were clogged. wideband looked fine though.

 

your right, im afraid of new "technologey".

 

lmfao , smartass ...

 

I am thinking of swapping out my induction system next spring. Would not a single plane afford the best distribution vs other port fuel manifolds stock or aftermarket?

 

Still laughing at many posts in this thread.

I have a wideband(LC1) in each collector; never said it was a bad thing to have, just noting that it won't save the engine.

Leaded fuels + wideband o2's don't get along very well. Add an oxidizer to that fuel(nitrous) and the readings can be very squeewed. When we were running gas in the carb & systems I commonly saw around 13.8-15:1 @ WOT on a clean run. Accordingly to the internet folk-lore about wideband gauges that would mean the motor was too lean; guess what, the plugs were perfect and it ran like a scalded dog.


Aperion is very on point. Having any amount of whatever gauges likely would not have saved this pass. 6k rpm = 100 revolutions per second. That motor has spun over at least 500 times before you could even begin to react to whatever you read on any gauge.

With injection it is much easier to "go lean" w/ nitrous than a carb. With a carb, the nitrous being sprayed in the plenum displaces signal through the carb, thus you get less air & fuel from the carb than the motor would when running NA. - The larger the shot, the more it displaces the signal through the carb.




The bottom line remains the same no matter how any of us look at this. - Pull the motor out, pull it down, and see what's hurt. I'm still betting the initial tune-up wasn't great, thus when it made a pass w/o the fuel noid it finished it off.


Even a hint of oil in the cylinder w/ nitrous can be disastrous.

 

What nitrous system are you running if nos i highly suggest switching to NX to prevent this, much better flow through the system and the solenoids are guaranteed to open

 

Damn, another thread contaminated by your douchery. Really? Your car must be ballz azz slow if you got time to read your "fuel gauge" and act accordingly down the track. And btw, I assume you're talking about an actual fuel PRESSURE gauge, right? Uhh, hey there sport, I got a question. How would a fuel pressure gauge tell him his fuel solonoid didn't open? Oh yeah, that's right. It wouldn't. Here, just for you...

 

The fuel for nitrous is ran -out- of the fuel rail.....solenoid opens pressure drops...

 

you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

if your fuel pressure in the rail drops with the nitrous activated, you may soon have problems. sounds like your fuel pump isnt keeping up.

 

This is a NOS kit on a "stock" car, not a "race" car like yours. It even says in the manuel that its suppose to drop.

 

Do i not? hmmm i swear ive seen the swap done in person and best pull to best pull on the dyno 13hp was gained just from swaping brands because the nos bottle valve and solenoid are p.o.s' because of this deal called "flow" dont know if you've heard of it but it is indeed real and just for ***** and giggles heres some pics for you. http://www.nitrousexpress.com/valvecut.php
http://www.nitrousexpress.com/solenoidcut.php

 

jb weld and a cut down trashcan lid and it'll fix right up!

 

Sounds like a fuel pressure safety switch would have saved this whole thing from happening.

I tune with plugs and wideband on motor passes. Only plugs on N2o passes since you can't tell what each cylinder is doing on a Wideband meter.

I vote for a tear down and checkout of all parts! good time to upgrade to stronger parts if needed

 

Motor is coming out this friday and will be broken down to assess the damage. I will update this thread with info as progress is made.

 

Gotta bump this thread and back a brother up. When I'm out in the streets lookin to take your money, the last thing I need is a row of guages to let you know I'm playin ya. LOL. Wait we're only supposed to race at the track right? My bad.(posted in fun)

 

the guy that runs NX is a dingaling king.
the things you are thinking matter do not really matter so much.

 

They actually do which is why you see an increase in power but I suppose if Fast and Furious says to use NOS then it is probably best, and the higher resistance in the solenoids makes opening under high pressure almost a sure thing

 

But forged or Hyperuetectic lid? Lol.

 

 

I would like to know why you think this since not all systems are created equal.

A system is what you make of it. ALL are going to require some MAINTENANCE like rebuilding the solenoids every X amount of pounds of nitrous run thru them. This goes for EVERY nitrous system. It is the only way to ensure reliable solenoid operation. This combined with the safety

Let me guess you run a NX system?

 

i am not biased, i have had 2 nos kits, an nx kit, nitrous outlet kit, and an edelbrock kit.

if your bottle pressure is too high why would you want your solenoid to open? it is DESIGNED not to open with too much pressure. more pressure does not mean more power, that is not how you tune a nitrous setup.

 

OK, this time I do have a serious comment. If the budget allows, increase your exhaust valve size, if you have a 1.5" get cut for a 1.6". If you have a 1.6" you can use a Pontiac 1.66" or 1.77" as long as your heads and machinist can handle it. Don't sweat the size of the intake as you are "force feeding" the engine when you're on the bottle, a bigger valve insn't as critical. You should still make sure you have a "good flowing" port though, regardless of valve sizing.

 

Im going to have to kindly disagree with this. It is pretty much the opposite.

While a larger exhaust valve will work a bit better you always want to focus your attention to the intake side of the engine. Nitrous does not "Force Feed" an engine it only allows the intake stroke of the engine to bring in a much denser charge. But the engine is still physically bound to only pulling in a certain amount of air.
Increase the intake valve and clean up the runner and more air will come in = more HP.......... When the Exhaust valve opens then air is physically pushed out so the valve size is not near as important as the intake.

 

I have had a WB with controller for about 4 years now. I have run countless g It is an invaluave tool to read and tune PE AE OL ect. Unfortunately it will not prevent detonation or catastrophic failure due to N20. It will read the "end of the story".

If WB reads a rich mix on N vs fuel ratio it will help you get to a leaner result. Day one of N20 use it did just that. My N vs fuel was way fat purposely so. 10.0/1 and alerted me to the need to swap out to larger N20 jet. I have not yet been to track with N20 to fine tune it but should be there next season.

 

Your logic is sound and I can see you are thinking about the physics of engine operation. This is is extremely important.

But you made a small mistake: You forgot the Chemistry of engine operation. Under natural aspiration an engine draws in atmosphere. It doesn't have a choice. For the sake of simplicity our atmosphere is roughly 78% nitrogen and 20% oxygen with the balance traces of other stuff. When bottle fed this changes to roughly 66% nitrogen and 33% oxygen. Nitrogen does not combust. Because N2O is forced into the engine under pressure greater than atmospheric it is "fair" to say we are "force feeding" oxygen at a rate greater than we would normally be able to. This allows more power from the same size valve/port without needing to make it larger ( though making it larger WILL make more power) Our big concern is getting the significantly greater volume of spent gases the heck out of the chamber in time for the next charge. Every cycle contains some gases from the previous cycle that may or may not be combustable.For this reason we need to increase cylinder emptying in order to increase cylinder filling, hence the reason we run free flowing exhaust systems and the reason that you will get more from your nitrous by increasing the exhaust than you will increasing the intake. Of course you could increase BOTH, but now were moving towards "purpose built" vs "street mods". Hope this helps.

 

you guys are both kinda right. you are always bound to atmospheric pressure providing air for the engine on a nitrous car. without the air rushing through the engine, how much nitrous/fuel would really enter the cylinders? not a whole lot... so the intake side is still very important. parts can be changed/modified to allow more air and nitrous to enter the cylinders. on the exhaust side, you are having to expel a huge amount of exhaust out of the cylinders, so you need to think "big" there, and parts can be changed around for that as well.
i will say this, my nitrous cam has 12 degrees more duration on the exhaust side than the intake side. cylinder heads can have larger exhaust ports for nitrous cars, and headers "can't be big enough".

 

Yup, you are right.

 

I think what happens sometimes is that we do get caught by catch phrases and such. "Nitrous" is like that. For instance the title of this thread is "nitrous damage" when in fact the nitrogen shouldn't have to take the blame for this. We should say something like "engine damage caused by cylinder pressures exceeding physical limitations due to incomplete combustion and/or excessively high temperatures from the uncontrolled burn of an oxidiser"For reals though I DO sympathize with Irishhockey34, carnage is awesome unless it's your engine. I hope you are up and running soon, injectors are on their way to you.

 

this thread just made my night lol

 

A spec'd cam is going to benefit the combo far more then a slightly larger valve will.

I agree with what you are saying except for the force fed part. I see why you call it force feeding but it is more like Altered feeding

I never said that exhaust side isn't important only that the intake is normally the problem in the pursuit of power thats all. In the engine as a whole the entire engine needs to be address when one change is made.

I would have to say that any head mod is not going to mean anything if you don't have a spec'd cam for what is going on.

 

I am with you 100% on this Diggler.

Wider LSA, More exhaust Duration, more lift. Been there and STILL there.

Problem is you cross the line where it is now a purpose nitrous car. I have engines that were a total "pig" off the bottle but once the bottle came on look out!

 

lol my car is a royal turd off the bottle, but she rolls when the switch is on. she made great power n/a on the chassis dyno for the combination, though even with the nitrous cam.

nitrous cars make a good street car, though compared to a big inch n/a combo. the nitrous car will have a tight converter, low numeric gear ratio, usually a more streetable cam, and you have the option of switching off 4-500hp if your just cruising around. set it up for ~12:1 or so compression and you can roll around on pumpgas even. in my mind its a great setup for a dual purpose street/strip car.

 

Mine is the same way! Except now the cam is getting so big and wild that springs are going to HATE me!

BTT

Show pics on the teardown and lets see those pistons! Should see the blowby on the ring lands!

 

Thinking of starting a fresh post to discuss this topic further. IE: more technically correct. I think we all hijacked Irishhockey34's post ( me included) to the point that he has left long ago.

Show of hands....who thinks 100% VE means 100% combustible?

Hint: 100% VE is about 20-25% combustible!

Want to learn more?

Thanks.

 

Back to topic.....

Motor is out and will be broken down soon!

 

That's simple; The air we breathe and our engines ingest is actually very low in oxygen. That's the reason nitrous works, or one of them. If we had pure oxygen then nitrous would actually slow the engine's combustion process down.

We are probably lucky that air isn't 100% oxygen in the fact that it would cause some really bad things to happen from a thermodynamics stand point or we would have to add "filler" in order to reduce the amount of combustible whatever in the chamber (EGR anyone?)

In regards to the instrumentation based on what I've done data logging, I some how doubt that it would have saved him from rattling the hell out of the engine. The Buick guys use an audiable knock sensor, but I mean hell even that's a roll of the dice. I mean think about it this way, if you go look it up how long does it take you to react to a car stopping and having to slam on your brakes. Even that's a ton of time in the world of engine combustion at WOT.

ED:

Good luck on your tear down, I hope that it's something easily resolved with minimal expense. Post pics either way though.

 

Engine began to be broken down. Had the heads sent off to a machine shop and they informed me that one was cracked. Any suggestions as to why this happened?

Cylinders look good from up top, no obvious damage. Have yet to pull oil pan.

 

A complete teardown is the safest way since the potential for damage is so great with nitrous when things go wrong. Too bad about the cracked head, but not really out of the ordinary. Detonation due to lean air/fuel on nitrous creates unbelieveable cylinder pressures, and if you're lucky a head gasket might let go instead. If you decide to put it back together as a nitrous motor, using a Hobbs switch (fuel pressure safety switch) will avoid damage in case the fuel solenoid or fuel pump fails.

There are also times when you can avoid a teardown by using an inspection camera. It's a lighted fibreoptic camera mounted on a flexible shaft that you can fit through spark plug holes, intake runners, etc. They cost less than $100 from Harbor Freight Tools.

Doesn't matter how you tune a car, when the motor starts to pop and bang on nitrous, get off the throttle & the button right away. There's always time to check out the melted spark plug straps or wideband data on the laptop later on!

 

Good luck with the rebuild!!

 

you had too much pressure from the nitrous and not enough fuel. extreme lean condition. superheated the cylinders the head was the weakest point. remove the pistons and replace the rings. please! redo the bottom end if possible while it is out.

 

Motor is completely stripped down to the bare block and was dropped off at the machine shop today for a dip/hone just to clean things up. All pistons/rings look good. Rings will be replaced along with all crank/rod bearings for good measure. New head from GM is in the mail. Things should go back together within a week or two

 

While you aim to make a good point, and most of the time I agree with your points....you are simply wrong here. WB02's have saved many a motor for me, at least while on the dyno anyhow. Can't see why it would be any different in the 1/4 if paying attention.

 

*UPDATE

Motor is going to be assembled tomorrow. Some nice and pretty parts below:

Fresh powdercoated GMPP TBI Intake



Assorted Parts painted/to be painted