and zoomed in for a closer look

 

Quite a few MS owners had noise issue's that continuously caused a resetting and shutting down issue with the engine, some turned out to be running copper core plug wires then switching to noise suppressing wires in which fixed the problem. What kind of spark plug wires are you running Dave?

 

just a good quality oem wireset

 

It might be worth it to swap the OEM carbon core wires for a more modern magnetic suppression wire set. to at least eliminate that as a possibility. Most MS users found that to be the culprit...

 

i highly doubt its the cause, the only thing different on this ms install versus many others ive done is the low-z injectors

going to try to find some high-z injectors to try, low-z injectors can cause some nasty noise issues

ive got 2x 2.4L twin cams apart atm maybe i can steal the injectors form those 2 motors just for a test run

 

Gotta admit I was skeptical too at first, but RBob showed me something that I didn't even catch in one of my own logs awhile back, the O2 sensor was skewing data because of the plug wires, and he didn't even know how I had my harness routed, yet he still caught it. Changed wires, left the harness routing untouched, and it resolved it immediately. Just something to look into just in case the low-z injectors do not solve the issue, as EMI cross chatter can cause your exact resetting scenario...

 

i know the plug wires can cause issues but ive used oem wires on many things ive megasquirted before , and never had an issue


history on this unit is blown injector drivers + bad flyback circut , so im going to start with the obvious red flag , and its something i can propably check without spending any money hopefully

1 of those 2.4L motors is blown up and in the scrap pile so i know i can take those 4 injectors , the other motor im doing a headgasket on but im sure my buddy will let me borrow those injectrs for a couple days , if not picking up only 4 more used injectors should only be a few bucks on ebay .

if those dont solve the issue i will move onto plug wires and then finally the unit itself

its frustrating cause the darn thing will be perfect for a few days , and then this **** out of the blue and then back to perfect again


worst case is i sell off the hsr, injectors, fuel pumps etc etc , and put the money twards a nice single plane intake , holley 750 and a carb hat , use amagnetic pickup for the distributor and lock it to 22* and use a start retard box for cranking

 

Ain't nothing wrong with going blow-thru, I see no reason not to. Remember years back how it was pounded into our heads about how we needed 02 correction and ECM control for boost lol. Years went by, we started becoming ECM know it all's, and now we both know we don't need them other than for finessing a tune lol. To this day, fastest cars at e-town are still carbed bro, with or without forced induction. Go for it if the ECM still gives you trouble, way cheaper too...

 

A good blow through carb is $1200+.

Could you email me your actual log? I'd like to see all sensor inputs right before it dies.

-- Joe

 

Knowing Dave though he would convert a carb himself for boost, pretty easy and cheap to do. Here's an article for those curious, Click Here. Some of the Mighty Demon's are going for half that amount though, around six hundred and change. MD's are good blow-thru carbs, but they usually get bad reviews from their competition, not the actual buyers. What's makes them cheaper is the lack of sensors, harness, PCM and fuel injectors needed, not to mention the long run because parts need replacing due to time. Injector swaps and sensor replacement are a thing of the past. Anyways, back to his MS, if he is stating that it is a random issue, not constant, then I would give the harness and grounds a thorough once over, change the plug wires, then datalog it again. A poor charging also system wreaks havoc on injector pulsing; a la TPI 101 from two decades ago...

 

yup i would buy a mechanical secondary 750 and convert it myself
id hate to lose all the dataloging and tuneability of the efi system though
and a purely datalogging system would be pretty exspensive


rob , i just installed a brand new ecm harness in the car a few months back, that was one of the things i changed when this issue started to pop up


data attached

 

I'd send him my Deka 60s I just pulled out, but I wonder if some of them are sticking open. The primary tube glowing thing has got me. I hope it was an injector and not a valve.

I forget what he's using for an engine harness. Noise is a problem on ignition inputs, but if he's using a small cap dizzy with remote coil I don't think that's an issue.

Again, if I could review his actual log it might point to something.

-- Joe

 

Why is the MS seeing 8 volts? It's probably resetting due to voltage drop.

-- Joe

 

What's funny though is the amount of money racers invest in datalogging equipment, and you will still find them checking the spark plugs for the final say at the track. The datalogging is pretty cool, I agree, I use it all the time myself. But there is so much stuff out there to be used with carbs to accomplish the same goal, it's not like it was ten to twenty years ago. Hell I'm almost daring myself to do it after the video I posted above...

 

it shouldnt be voltage gauge says 10v during cranking and 14v once alt kicks in ,

i will throw a jump pack on my car tommorow and see what happens


i dont have the log open infront of me is it showing 8v while running?

 

I beg to disagree. A CSU Carb is 960.00 shipped to your door. and imo is a really good setup and the guy knows his stuff too. A real quality piece (firsthand experience)

 

Ahem...

 

joe i just looked im showing 8.5v when cranking but it goes right to 14.5 once the engine fires and then 12v when engine dies .

during the resets voltage is 13.8-14.4 v

ill throw a jumppack or the battery charger/starter on the car when i crank it but i doubt it will make a difference , i have no resets while cranking

 

I know Kevin

You've got two options with CSU, the 750 or the 850. The 750 is $975 and will support up to 1,000hp. The 850 is $1050. I could get away with a 750, but for a 1000+ hp car I'd go with the 850.

Then you need the a regulator, so figure $1200 for a blow through.

The other problem, which I guess for a track only car doesn't matter, is the choke is removed.

I have no problem with a carb for some applications. I sold both of my C3's saturday morning, and after sitting for over a year they both started right up, warmed up, and drove away.

Before I looked at blow through carb, I'd probably look at Holley's new Sniper lineup. The 8 injector version will support 1200hp, 3 bar map, etc.

-- Joe

 

I looked at this more closely this morning, and I'm starting to think your injector drivers are causing it.

At this point I don't know if I'd trust the unit as a whole. You've reached the point where I simply throw something in the trash and start all over. Kinda like what I did with my turbo setup when it was melting everything in proximity, and I couldn't even get my valve cover off.

-- Joe

 

When will guys learn to stop playing with junk electronics and use something known to work well?

I'd go back to 730 and code $59 or eb flash before goin carb

 

You an electronics expert now?

He's taken a soldering iron to his ECU more than once, it's had blown components, and is probably suspect. He should throw it out and buy a new one.

-- Joe

 

Exactly why i said JUNK electronics. Thanks for agreeing with me

 

I'm sorry, I thought you meant something else.

I coulda sold him an MS2 a few months ago but he seemed to be changing direction with the car.

Either way, I think he should use high impedance injectors with the MS1/MS2 hardware.

-- Joe

 

im going to see if i can round up enough injectors today at the shop to atleast test with 8x high -z in it

 

You want my deka 60s ? $20

-- Joe

 

i aint going to turn that down,,,, done , pm me ur paypal

 

like ive said before , i bought this unit used from a member on theese forums , first thing he did was lie about what board the unit was , which was the only reason i was buying it used cause he said it was a 3.57 .

i had issues with the unit right out of the box , i should have known better when i saw how crappy it was put together , but it functioned right witht he stimulator/tester


i have never had an issue with a unit bought from diyautotune or assembled myself , other then an ociasional wrong ignition setting in the software which was quickly fixed



its a great unit for what it is , and with all the features u get nothing else comes close in its price range

 

Haha, just missed it. I would have given Joe a hundred for them lol...

Get it done Dave.

 

Like I said, I don't know if they were causing my #7 to go red, if it's my miniram, or a valve issue. So I just wanna cover shipping.


-- Joe

 

I'm trying to find a car on craigslist so I can justify buying the new Holley Sniper EFI to try it on.

It doesn't have as many features as the MS does, but I like the fact that it's all contained in what looks like a carb. Built in regulator, 2 or 3 bar map, etc.

I've got a bunch of new carb intakes in the basement too. Just need a car.

-- Joe

 

hey joe i think i rember reading u were looking for a 4bbl tb somewere . i have had this saved in my watchlist for a while now

http://www.ebay.com/itm/301939905366?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Wait til you see what I got coming tomorrow lol...

 

I saw that, but what i was looking for was a chinese version of the fast 4 injector 4BBL throttle body. I can't bring myself to pay $800-1,000 for just a throttle body and injectors, when a complete system is $900-1,000 from holley or fi tech.

My reasoning is wanting to run a dual-plane wet flow rather than a single plane dry flow.

I might pick up a C4 and if I do I'd put the miniram on it and run a 4bbl on the Formula, but. Who knows.

-- Joe

 

ahhh gotcha

when those injectors arrive ill soak them in either trans fluid or some penetrating oil for a day , and then i plug them into my fuel rails and leave them out of the motor and presurize the fuel system to see if any are stuck open




ill even ship them back to you since they wont actually be big enough for my motor and they are worth a bunch more then 20$ , but this will end up telling me if i have core ecm issues or something else

 

They we're not 'sticking' per say, but my #8 and #7 plugs were a lot richer than the other plugs in the motor, and the #7 primary was glowing at idle.

It's probably a tight valve, but 60s were way too big for my car anyway. I put brand new chinese 42s in it, which should be plenty for an 11 second car.

-- Joe

 

those china injectors scare me

they are cheap though
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-19...3A8dq00Ev2eHcg

guy also sells brandname stuff for not to much more

 

just talked to my buddy and hes pretty sure he has 8 matching 15# injectors laying around if so i may be able to test the ecm as early as tommorow , will only be able to test idle witht hose but if that test goes well i can drop in the 60's and see if the issue is gone at all rpm

if it fdoesnt pass the idle test with the 15's then i know im screwed


should just be able to change the injector constant/req fuel when i swap in the injectors right

 

Yeah, the injector constant will change the req fuel number (which is essentially your base pulse constant).

You will need to change your latency settings too though. Is there a setting for PnH vs high impedance? I've never run PnH on a MS.

-- Joe

 

yeah ill have to convert back to normal settings


If you are running high-impedance injectors (greater than 10 Ohms), then set the:
PWM Time Threshold to 25.4 msec, and the
PWM Current Limit (%) to 100%.
(The presence or absence of the active flyback circuit (v3) or flyback board (v2.2) doesn't matter for high impedance injectors.)


If you have low impedance injectors (less than 4 Ohms), set the:
PWM Time Threshold to 1.0 msec, and
PWM Current Limit to:
30% on a V3 or V3.57 main board (if you have the active flyback circuit installed).
30% on a V2.2 main board (if you have the separate flyback board installed).
75% on a V2.2 main board (if you do not have the separate flyback board installed).

 

Now that I am starting to remember this build, I am starting to agree with Justin, just get your hands on a '7730 with $59 code. They are cheap enough to score in the bone yards from varying vehicles, and the harness is easy to make. The current MS ECM is the one that almost caused that fire, correct? Just get rid of it if that is the case...

 

The ECM resetting is likely to be due to ground wire location and connection.
With P&H there is more peak current through the injector ground wires.
High current through wires creates a voltage drop.
High current through wires causes induced voltages in nearby wires that run parallel to the high current wires.

1) Move your processor ground for the ECM away from the injector grounds
2) Make injector grounds large
3) Ensure you are not using the process ground to carry injector ground current
4) Ensure that the single point ground is at or close to the battery.

Didn't someone release a boost $8D version that has never been tested with boost? Could try that, but then you lose the P&H. Better off with the MS and checking the grounds.
You could also just try adding the "resistor packs" to your P&H injectors so they act like saturated. Lots of import guys do this, but then you get slower turn on/off times. This will limit the current pulses and will let you know if wires are too close with crosstalk on the ground.

 

I don't even have those options on my MS Module.

-- Joe

 

iirc the ms module will not run any type of low-z injector , or it can only do a pair of them ala tbi injection and doesnt need them

 

Why not just stick an old AFB on it with a rag as an air cleaner? I mean, if he's gonna run useless junk from the stone age

-- Joe

 

I looked at the MS PWB layout. They connect all processor and Analog grounds together. So, you can't apply good ground design practices.
All you can do is connect a good fat wire from the ECM to the block with a good connetion. Connect a fat wire from the block to the battery.

The problem is more than likely on the power side to the processor. Connect a wire to the battery (only at the battery) and then to a relay. Out of the relay to the MS processor power input. Nothing else is powered by this wire. The relay is turned on via key switch power. DO NOT try to power the injectors using this same relay. It will cause noise problems. Have a separate relay for injector power.

I know the injectors must not have power when the ECM doesn't have power (you learned the hard way), but don't put them on the same relay or you will get noise problems.

 

Joe, I did not refer to MS as being junk, Orr did, so don't try and bait me with that argument, I'm not going there anymore lol. I agree with Orr in Dave's case though, because this particular MS unit seems to have issues. But... if I were to at least entertain that argument, I would say for sure that if he did run a Carter AFB for boost, he would have been to the dyno already years ago, not struggling and fighting the same ECM issues over and over again.

 

I never said ms is junk. I said what he was working with was junk. Tried fixing it several times and stil having issues

 

they are on the same relay , so i belive u may have found my issue

i have injectors ecm and coil all on the same relay so if in an emergency be it in the track or whatever when i hit the off button on my switch panel the motor shuts down NOW


i just read up on my switch panel though and i can separate all the components and set the switch panel to kill all circuits at the same time by pushing the off button on the #1 switch

allso matt cramer gave me this mod to try if i need to

 

this unit may be junk or it may not be , im going to correct my power wiring and sepearate the injectors and ecm power to 2 different relays and see what happens .


if this works this is one of the faults of the manual , as info has goten so scattered about its hard to find

ms truley needs somone to put together a single manual for each version of the hardware