TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

sounds good c u guys there.
quick question my friend in his iroc is planing to try it out.. whats needed inspection? helmet?

Guest

I may be running late in order to get my shocks from the delivery tomorrow. I may have to call Mike to see if you can try and register me for the last run group in case I am running late. I still have a bit of work to do to it in the morning- it''ll be a full day of work and running around town for nuts and bolts.

JERRYWHO

For the car just safety stuff like no broken wheel studs or battery hold down. and for the helmet you can use just about any motorcycle or car helmet.

Jerry

Frank 84 Bird

I may be there tonite to spectate

injdinjn

What can I say - That's just a whole lot of fun. Almost better then sex and a whole lot cheaper.
And the GP is faster than the GTA by 0.7 sec. 54.06 to 54.78.

I'll let Jerry post his times. Lets say there are some embarrassed ricers out there.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I'm anxious to hear what the bar has now been set to. Wish I could have been there. Would have also liked to check out jerrys mini tub job. I'm doing one myself.

Guest

You also ran the GTA earlier when the track was slicker. I checked the times and it appears the track gets about .2 faster on each run group- not each seesion, each run group. In an entire session of three runs the average lap time increase is a drop of .67 seconds between the 1st and thrird runs of all the cars combined...I did the math.

I was happy with my time on my one and only lap considering I was out srcewing around with Mike as passenger and just slide drifting it throwing it around into every corner just playing and ran a 52.69. Unfortunately as everyone there knows, I had a malfunction from a last minute shocks install. I rushed to get them on the truck even though a UPS delivery order was not correct (In a jam, what to do? I tried them anyways). On the track find out the shock bodies were too wide and made contact with the front brake caliper banjo bolts at almost full lock and compression travel which rendered my right front soaked and the right rear wet with brake fluid- it was a hell of a nice spin as Mike and I went into the front sweeper in full drift in the longbed to realise it was a tad bit slippery. Rather than drift it out offroad saving it and do some body damage or suspension damage (or both), I just opted to quickly loop it keeping it centered on the track. I hate spinning a vehicle, but with that size truck and that small a track I had no choice but to save her from damage.I guarantee and Mikeid already confirm I am good for at least 2 seconds drop , I personally feel a 50 flat is a money prediction- There will be a next time. I want this truck in the 49.xx range

Great seeing everyone.

ps- while screwing around on that first lap, I tied a WRX, and beat a Miata...both went on to run bests of 50.2's

Guest

...and Tom (INJDINGN), You have one hell of a fun car to ride in . That thing is amazingly fast and more amazingly slows down well for its size. I was very impressed! The Buick has just a slight push that is easily throttle induced into oversteer. A little swaybar change and shock revalving and that thing could easily drop 2-3 seconds.

edit: My bad.... Pontiac Grand Prix...Not Buick. Here's my sign....

JERRYWHO

My best time was in the third group and it was in the 48s, and that was the fastest time of anyone in the third group.
The 90rs i run at Adams is not tubbed, it only has 275s on the rear.
My 92 has 325/60-15s M/T drag radials on 12 inch wide wheels, so i had to mini tub it.

Jerry

Guest

Jerry, you look fast. I will say that if someone had a radar gun, my money is on you carrying the best speed around that front sweeper coing into the start finish line. I laugh every time those track officals say in the drivers meeting that" HP is not a factor, the track record holder is in a little Miata with only 100 hp" Yeah buddy, a stripped down Miata with a power to weight ratio of 1.5. Jerry's car is higher ratio than that and also much wider a vehicle trying to fit through that narrow back stright tire transition- the Miata would win in a drag race. The Miata's go through that little jont almost straight at about 10-15 mph faster than we do. We all have to accelerate going into the far bank corner were they are still braking from the straightaway speed.

Jerry, you have the fastest lateral thing there hands down. Get ome power behind it, the wider rears and a tad more muscle? Track record.
We all know you are not finished building that thing.

Mike? Plain and simple, You need tires. You have your hands full on those hard *** 10 year old Goodyears.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"Get ome power behind it,"

I think Jerry is going for the track record with the new motor. It would be great that a 3rd gen set the track record.

I also think the 3rd gens are going to do quite well at the drag strip this year to boot.

Grey Goose

Here’s a little in car footage from the first session. This will give everyone a little perspective on just how technical this track is from inside the car. Tom, loved watching you beat up on the Mustang, Dean your truck is SICK nothing that big should handle that well, and Jerry you plain fly around the track and are still the man

…and as you will see in the video, it is a lot of work keeping a 3600lb car on a tight track with 10yr old rubber under you.

In car footage AMP 9/7/10

injdinjn

I have about 30 min of footage.
Jerry's car is just flat on that turn just before the start/finish and he is running thru there faster then most everyone else. It would be neat to have a radar gun to time Dean, Jerry and the two track locals that were playing by themselves.

Dean, that's what you get for trying to intimidate me - broken truck
It is a little disconcerning in a vert hearing the vetruck in full throttle behind you. Thanks for the hints and complements.

Yea, mikey needs shoes.

HP has to have something to do with it, why else would the GP be faster than the GTA, both have the same tires and shocks and driver.

injdinjn

Dean
Since you did the math, what was the mean fastest time for all the cars out there. and the fastest time.

BTW - its now a Olds Jetstar.

89 TA

Hey Mike your missing the Cobra shades and the wooden match stick in your mouth, that would of taken atleast a second of your times. was there any improvements in your times, and besides the muffler bearings, what other voodoo spells did you guys cast under there.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

it was nice coming out there
Jerry finally got to see your car in action
dean it was nice seeing your truck out there for its size it sure did impress plenty of people
mike looks like you need some tires seen the car power sliding

hoping on dropping my tranny down by the end of the month i have to check my clutch and slave cylinder i don't want those symptoms to get worse. im anxious to take it out there. ever since i put in the konis, strut mounts, good alignment and new tires i haven't been able to put them to the test.

Guest

This can be broken down so many ways. Best way to do it is by taking a persons best run of each run in a session- then adding all those and dividing that by the number of competitors that run..

The flaw there is that some people are newbies and drastically improve their times as they feel comfortable, while others are vetrans and can be judged off of already being somewhat warmed up from actually prior runs that day or just frequent flyers of the track. The first test I did was by taking the obvious "contenders that were vetrans" and came up with about .67 of an improvement in times during the 2nd session ranging from run 1 to run 3. That tells you that the track basically gets about .22 seconds quicker each run group as day turns to night and the track cools during session 2.

Then, taking the fastest time of each run starting with run 1 we get all the times added up and divided by 18 competitors to an average of 54.625 in Ses2 Run1.

53.255 in Ses2 Run2
16 competitors/ 2 DNR's -1.37 margin faster from Run1

52.288 in Ses2 Run3
16 competitors/ 2 DNR's - 0.97 margin faster than Run2

Whats this mean? basically you see an inacuracy in times showing not only track conditions getting better, but ALSO driver seat time improving skills. THis is less accurate to show times getting faster as the track cools. I think the first showuing vetran drivers being used to the track showing better track conditions as about the .22 seconds drop ion time as night falls over session 2 Run 1,2,3 and Session 3 Run 1, 2. I think by the time run 3 came around in session 3 the track got too cool and the rubber on the track becomes hard again reversing the grip trend.

Guest

Lets look at some specs of what we are doing out there at Adams against the little Miata's.

As mentioned before, these track guys keep talking how the little Miata that holds the track record is only 100 hp...oh poor him (Yeah right.)

Miata specs- This guy talking 100hp is full of it. Base motors are 128hp and the newest are 167hp. So lets say 100 REAR wheel HP, not flywheel.
*width- 65.9 inches
*length- 155 inches unless you account for his stripped off bumpers reducing about another 4-8 inches
*weight- Stock is 2300 lbs/ That car is completely stripped with not even a dash board truck or hood- lets say 1500 lbs at most

Power to weight ratio is 1 hp per 15 lbs
---------------------------------------------

Now lets take a thrid gen like Mikes car you see in the Video and Jerry's car.
Camaro Specs- Lets take a '86 305 TBI at 3600 lbs. Engine tired but with a few goodies so flywheel HP is about 190 and RWHP through the 700r4 puts it to about 150hp. 1hp per 24 lbs
*width- 72.8" [ 7" wider]
*length- 192" aprox 40-42" [longer, or 3 1/2 feet]
*weight- alot of 3rd gens with braces, sfc's etc will actually gain weight- Mike is at 3600 as stated.

Here is the major difference. That 7" equates 2X to 14" wider in a slalom transition. Where you see Mike braking heavily down that bake straight to jont through the tire slalom, those little Miatas are practically going through there more straight at about 10-15mph faster than Mike or Jerry.

Conclusion? Those little Miata drivers are like the annoying little kid on the goKart that weighs a buck and thinks its all driving skills when he walks away from you down a straightaway by 12 kart lengths, and you take the next 14 corners reeling him back in with your driving skills because your size and weight is your worst enemy against the snot nosed kid. The all mighty 3rd gen is making a real show at Adams kart track. You take a good base car and throw mechanical AND driving talent like Jerry has and this is your end result. It ain;t nothing to shake a stick at with what Jerry is doing out there, needless to say the whole group in our large domestic vehicles.

Grey Goose

LOL! I’ll rock the chrome aviators and the matchstick next time My best time of the night was 52.50 so I have yet to beat my best time of 52.06. The ‘muffler bearings and piston return springs’ Jerry and I installed made a world of difference in the handling dynamics of the car. There is a little snap over steer so the car is pushing but nothing a little tuning and well fresh rubber can’t handle. The car was losing traction equally across the front and rear which tells me that the set up is almost there and the remaining issue is rubber. I am more than confident that I can shave off 3-4 seconds with an ‘R’ compound under the car.

It was awesome, they had 5 Zigen’s professional time attack champion there doing ride alongs, driving cars, giving advice, etc… He came over to me inquiring as to the weight of my car and how much horsepower it had. I told him the car weighed roughly 3600lbs, had roughly 140-160rwhp, and I weighted 300lbs so I was roughly 3900lbs on the track. He shook his head and said ‘You guys have ***** running these heavy *** American cars on this little track!’ He then proceeds to tell me about the Griggs outfitted, Brembo equipped, Vortec S Trimmed, R compound wearing mustang he piloted around the course in the previous session and netted a 50.42. I laughed at him and asked him why he was so slow. Pissed he repeated slow, what do you mean? I informed him that my best in my car was 52.06 on 10 yr old rubber that is down to the cord and that the red car over there (Jerry’s) had a best of 47.75 on street tires and with comparable horsepower to mine. So then I put my hand on his shoulder and say hey we’re all allowed to have a bad night once in a while LOL! You should have seen the look on his face; you’d have thought someone just took a s@*t in his cereal bowl

Long live the mighty 3rd gen

injdinjn

That explains a lot. While waiting for the 2nd session parade lap I motioned him over and offed him a ride along and he looked at the car and said something about it being big. I replied that my this was my sports car, my big Grand Prix was waiting for the 3rd session.
He declined my offer by saying "this is just a parade lap, maybe later during competition runs."
He totally ignored me the rest of the night. He was at the pit road starting point when Jerry and I were parked in the middle waiting for our 3rd session 4th run and I could see him look at us out of the corner of his eye but never directly looked our way.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I sincerely think HP really doesn't matter a whole lot there. At least in my car I find that the only times I really get to floor it are from low RPM, the only time I tach out is on the back straight. With the t5 and 3.08 gears I do the whole course in second gear. A lot of the time if I floored it I would just spin my inside tire anyway.
With the course being as tight as it is I think there's more to be gained from bettering your weight to contact patch ratio (which is something I'm working on now )

Mike, I have no doubt that with good rubber you will drop a huge amount of time. The difference for me was indescribable. I still have the kumhos waiting for you

Jerry, I shudder to think what you will do out there on race rubber. That car would absolutely kill. Might want to think about my wheels with Kumhos on them if mike doesn't want them hehe

/end sales pitch

Grey Goose

I'd love to take them off your hands but there are more pressing issues at hand. I've got a line on some used R6's that I can get for next to nothing the only thing is there 18's so I'd have to rock some stocks for a few months until I burned up the Hoosier's which actually isn't that bad an idea seeing as we are going into the winter months... Looks like I might be in the market for some CHEAP16" wheels & tires soon

Dude... Jerry turns up on deck with slicks we're all getting bounced and banned for life. They aren’t going to take to a ‘Heavy *** American Car’ being the new track record holder well at all. Then again it could ignite a **** storm of competition between imports and domestics which would net some phenomenal action. I guess we’ll just have to see if Jerry feels like dropping the hammer on the IE

JERRYWHO

On my car with it's only dyno tested 170 hp will like more power, and more power will help the lap times. I have the throttle trace for each lap and the percentage of WOT is a lot higher then you think. When i get home i will post the throttle, rpm and speed graph from my car for one lap.

Jerry

Grey Goose

I agree, I'm wide open a minimum of 6 times per lap...

JERRYWHO

I have a full set of 91-92 silver wheels with 245/50-16 Kumho ASTs on them with about 1/2 tread. you can have the tires but i need the wheels back when the tires are done. About 15k from now. The rental charge for the wheels might be one run on the R6s

Jerry

Grey Goose

DONE! They're on a set of Fikse FM 10's that my buddy uses on his turbo. So as soon as he has them dismounted I can swing by and pick them up. As an expression of my gratitude, I would like you to put them through their paces first…

injdinjn

I'm not.

Grey Goose

That's because it's the only way you're going to keep that beast on the track. You hit the go pedal in that Delta 88 and it changes lanes for you

bungo78

iTrader: (1)

Well said

JERRYWHO

Sorry mike, I was at work when i posted thinking the tires are the High Performance ASTs and i just looked and the tires are Ultra High Performance ASXs I hope it's not a deal breaker.

Jerry

Grey Goose

Chris, Tom, and I were talking about my transition from running 18’s for the past 10yrs to 16’s over dinner this evening. The general consensus was that it’s only going to take a 2-3 high speed turns to reel me back in so I’m going to need all the help I can get. So definitely not a deal breaker, more like a deal maker! Thanks again I really appreciate it

My availability is open so whenever it’s convenient for you…

89 TA

Man sounds like I missed a great time. I lost the clutch on my rig, so I guess I'll have to go this tuesday to catch up on track time.

Guest

Mike will tell you that the one run we made in my truck, it took half the length of the back straightaway before I got into my powerband. I could definately used about 100 more hp minimum. I am full throttle at least half the track. I took a ride in Tom's Plymouth Duster and can tell you he is definately using that power- fun car to ride in. I have alot better gear on the race tires and wheels, but the street tires grip much better then the oval slicks.

ps- I wasted $350 brand new shocks. One is badly dented, and the other already has a blown seal from ground out. The narrow body units we ordered were a 7" stroke, these were a 9" and fatter. Its all in the name of playing - I was going to use them and then return then for the crrect parts we ordered...but not now.

Guest

Mike, You should be quicker out there with a little more sidewall. Those 18's are not forgiving on the corner curbs.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I guess it's probably just my car setup has given me the perception that power isnt that big of a deal. When I got on it a whole lot I was spinning the right rear like crazy. So most of the time I wasn't completely floored until I was dead straight and moving already.
The butt data logger has been known to be notoriously inaccurate though so maybe I am flooring it more than I thought. The T5 3.08 combo is also pretty good for the track, second gear is perfect. I run out of RPM on the back straight just before I need to brake.

Guest

Gearing for any track has alot to do withhow the power is layed down.

You can have the right HP but the wrong gearing. My problem is I come out of that turn in second and am too fast for the auto trans to kick down to 1st, but an lagging in second. The racing tires I ran were 2" shorter so I picked up ALOT of gear and power was not an issue- I has massive wheelspin everywhere though becuase they were too hard of rubber compound to get hot in 3 laps and they were too skinny for the truck. The race tires are 8" wide, the street tires are 11" wide I run. On the race rubber I come out onto that back straight in mid second and it tachs right up to 6k no problem. On the street tires I only reach about 4400rpms (comes in at about 3500, which is about half way downt he straight already). I need to re-gear my rearend from 3.70 to a 3.90

No my old V6? it really didn't need power because it carried its speed so well through the corners. If that car had power though..OMG

EDIT: I just ran the equations on the two different tire diameters and I am doing about 64 mph top speed on that back straight with the large diameter street tires and about 75 mph on the small racing tires picking up rear gear.

A WHOLE 10-11 mph!!!

Guest

Chris or Tom, you guys happen to get any video of the truck? I figure you may have been filming your dad and I was fairly close in the pic. I might be able to see some footage of it. My run was so brief I would like to see any video of it so I can critique it for next time. It really is a shame I broke so early and my runs were just screwing around, but it felt pretty good. I would like to see anything to see how the rear of it was acting upon braking and corner entrance, if I recall, I was a tad loose, I want to send these shocks of ffor revaling and I would like to study a little more input before I decide what I want to do next. If you do have any, can you call me or email it to me ? Thanks for any help.

Guest

Very little. I caught the end of your fun ride, but not all of it. I may have some other footage.

camaromike222

Do you guys think my old 3.73 gear ratio, if installed back, would really make a difference with my 305 TBI? I havn't ran yet, but you guy have me really excited about building my car for autocross. I've already started looking at suspension components to replace my 18 year old ones. I would think the 3.73 ratio and my 315 rears would complement my TBI. I remember when I did have it it imediately put me into the 4k rpm range even in 2nd gear. I could be wrong

Guest

Mike, Give me your exact specs

700r4 correct? so a 1.63 2nd gear

Redline rpm you "realistically" want to hit or what you think you power drops off at? Note that a gear with more torque will generally gain you about 300 rpms on top end.

315's... but what diameter. Give me the entire tire spec

..and I will give an opionion whether I think that wil work or a tad higher. I am pretty certain you would not go the other way and run out of gear having to dreadly shift into drive.

EDIT: You went ofline. I checked the 315's and a 315/35-17 is the same factory height @ 25.7.

You should be anywhere between 5300 and 5700 rpms at the end of the back straight with the 3.73 based on your HP in the 305TBI. If the engine is really tired you might be lower at 5000-5200. Definately a better gear than anything taller.


I would love to go up to 4.11's on mine but someday when I can afford to go to the TCI 6x trans with paddle shifters it would kill my 1:1 top speed from 125 to 107. that trans is a closer ratio with a taller 1st and a shorter O.D. so I need to stay with the 3.70's for the overall gameplan of this truck.

Guest

I have all of about 14 seconds of video. I'll see where I can post it up for you.

Guest

http://home.earthlink.net/~cjhjjj/Vetruck.wmv

There's your 14 seconds of fame.

If its not working for you, PM me. Curious minds want to know...

Guest

It works great. was able to open the video no problem. The computer I am on right now is not hooked with sound (I am in my community Media center) That first corner entrance looks flat and good, but it was early into the run so I was just getting warmed.

Thank you for trying to find that.

EDIT: On another computer now. You can hear the annoucer say, "...Gettin wild in the truck" Was out there having fun with Mike (Greygoose) as a ride along. Wan't going for time, was just drifting it around a few corners screwing around. The truck does not get loose like that unless I purposely throw it around and throttle it.

camaromike222

Sorry, Dean, I had to jet for the weekend, but yeah, it's a 25.7" tire. They are the BFG KD Drag Radials:



Of course, they are a pretty soft tire--sure to grip nicely--but not optimally for autocross I would assume. The fronts are the HTR-Z Sumitomo 275/40/17's. Also, it is indeed a 700r4 with what i think is a pretty tired TBI 305, however, Mike's 305 is a lot more gassed than mine and he's out there kicking hide.

As far as suspension, I'm using KYB GR2's all around for shocks/struts for now, LCA relocation brackets and I will be ordering adjustable, tubular everything and I've been meaning to ask you if the Jegs panhard bar relocation bracket is needed on both the axle and chassis side, or just the axle side. I know I'll have to play with it some when adjusting it for street and track, but I rather have the most adjustability as possible. Also, SFC's, 4 point cage eventually (although optimal, I don't wanna go 6 or more because I just want to install harnesses so the 4 point is needed and I want to get rid of my rear seats), adjustable wonder bar, strut tower brace, tubular A-arms and K-member(will be done when I swap in the LT1), I will be going with weight jacks eventually, but I have some cheap ebay lowering spring that are pretty stiff and of course I have the C5 front and LS1 rear brake package. I'm thinking since it's a street car as well, I will be going with the one poly end and the other a spherical end, but am willing to go dual spherical ends.

Do you think the traction bar is needed?

Mike

Grey Goose

Well it’s done… I’ve made the transition from 18’s to 16’s. Thanks again Jerry for coming all the way out to Anaheim to drop them off this past Saturday. You didn’t have to but I’m glad you were at least able to hit the Stanton Pick A Part while you were in town. These ASX’s are surprisingly sticky for an all season radial

camaromike222

Looking good, Mike! Ahh the classic look haha.

BlackMamba

iTrader: (6)

Look good Mike... hopefully my car looks like that when I lowered it

Jason89RS

iTrader: (2)

Hey you've got great choices in style...our cars are pretty much twins now that you switched wheels.

Grey Goose

I thought the handling characteristics would completely change by going back to a factory set of wheels and tires but to my surprise it really hasn’t. Granted the car gets loose much quicker than it did with the larger wheels and wider tires, however with the lessened rotating mass/contact patch of the smaller wheels/tires it responds much quicker to throttle modulation and steering inputs. Much better ride quality, better fuel economy, and now I don’t have to worry about where I park it as much. It’s starting to look like the 18’s are going to come out from spring to summer and 16’s from fall through winter.

Z28FAST1

Those tires are only good for 1/4 mile and way too much tire for a 305 with no stall. The BFG drags last about 5K miles if you are lucky so be ready to replace them every 4-5 months and don't dare drive them in the rain over 40mph. If its a daily driver with occasional track time I would recommend some Nitto Invos or Kumhos.