Yeah Aaron, I looked at your stuff a few days ago. That's a very respectable Camaro you have there. Seeing cars like yours helps get me pumped up to keep working on my piece of crap.

Paint is in my future. I've nearly polished the original paint off my car. Don't like the black (always dirty), so I'm thinking of changing colors. Originally the car was black with gold trim which I kinda like, but I really like the blue cars with silver trim and white cars with gold. I'm getting a correct (1989) set of rims which are gold, but need refinishing. I'll stick them on the car first, then decide on color.

Hello DEWEY. Yeah the car is lowered with sportlines and the rear isolators have been replaced with little pieces of heater hose.

I've got about an inch of room between the axle housing and the rubber snubbers on the frame. I'm gonna cut about an inch off the snubbers and see what happens. Should have done it already, but been lazy this week. Maybe tomorrow. I will report the results on this thread.

How bad will spherical ended LCAs F*** up my ride comfort? Will poly on one end and and rod end on the other work? Funny, this is the first I've heard about the disadvantages of poly. Glad you spoke up. What If I got spherical on one end and poly on the other, then replaced the poly with new rubber? What if this? What if that? What if? What if? Hope you have all the answers.

This is a street car and I drive it everyday. Don't want it bustin my guts too bad. Right now, I'm still using the old old stock LCAs. Drag racing with this car is an oxymoron (I tried it some), but I like ducking and weaving through traffic a lot.

 

Thanks, man. That means alot to me. I love the IROC, too. I think blue and silver is the shi*ts. I am thinking about the combo ended one. I like to duck and weave too, but I'm not sure Brit would understand that. Although, some things bounce nicely....
The binding should be minimized with the combo, and it has to be better than the flimsy stock stuff.

 

Dewey and I are pretty much on the same page… I don’t know that I’d paint it as ugly as he did, but basically, yea, that’s the situation.

WRT to the questions:
- if you’re going rod end I’d suggest going with the best rod ends you can justify, rod ends can be very annoying when they start clunking
- rod ends aren’t so much a problem with additional ride harshness… yes, ride is more harsh/louder, but it’s not by much. The thing is that if you’re using them you have to understand that there will be that change, and that even using expensive, high quality rod ends you could figure that you’ll have to replace them in 10-20K miles of street use… if you add that up you could be looking at a couple of hundred $ every year or so if you’re talking street use.
- Unless you’re a serious autoxer or road racer you’ll be fine with well lubed poly bushings
- For the average street car I’m not sure I really see a good reason not to stick with stock type rubber bushings… they work fine, last long and don’t do anything obnoxious. I have to admit for street use I’ve done everything from boxing a set of stockers and left the stock rubber bushings to full rod ends on both ends and everything in between, and even with really aggressive street use, some autox and weekly drag use I never saw a problems with the boxed stockers. If you insist on something more serious I’d look at either poly ends and keep them regularly lube (every oil change) or us LCA’s with poly ends on one end and rod ends on the other

If you're curious, right now my street cars/toys have boxed stockers and one has a set of totally stock LCA's on it, and I have a set of rod end/rod end and rod end/poly spohns in the garage and I have no intensions of swapping them any time soon. I do have stiffer PHR's in all of them though...

 

I didn't know that you had to replace the rod ends every 10-20k miles. I probably need to do that soon. I have put roughly 8k on mine since I installed it. I'll wait till spring to do it. How much are they and where can I get them? Does Spohn sell them? I also plan to lube everything on my car today. I didn't do it on the last oil change. What is the best lube to use on the polyurathane?

Another question, is the chromoly really worth it? My car is a daily driver now, but I want a really good handling car that is easy to drive on the roads without alot of noise and hassle. In the future, when/ if I get another car for a daily driver (40 miles a day to and from school plus everything else is really racking up the miles) I plan to auto-x my car quiet a bit. I'll still drive it, but I want to be able to auto-x and/or street race it. Thanks.

 

Ok, I auto-xed the car Sunday. Now, it is off. The steerinf pops when I turn the wheel left or right, but only at a certain spot in the turn and only once. The rear end feels super loose, but again, not all the time. There was once last night I accelerated from a red light and it felt like the rear was trying to run into the lanee to my left. In corners, it also feels a little off. I'm not even going to go into the breaks. They were weird before, but now... I'm glad the whole rear end is going this week or early next. Nice new rear disks and replacing the front rotors....
Any idea about the other stuff?

 

Man, I don't know about that popping thing. It might be best to start a new thread on each problem (if you haven't already). They'd get more attention like that than they will buried in this thread. The rear end issue you mentioned seems really weird. If you were still on your worn out stock bushings, I might understand.

I cut my reboud bumpers off and it seems to have taken care of my sudden, crap your pants, oversteer problem. Cut about a half-inch off each one.

Raised my tire pressures to 38 front and 33 rear. Really seemed to help, especially since they were pretty low all around when I checked them. Guess I need to keep a closer eye on them.

The car is now understeering near the limit, but feels like it is going through the turns very fast. It's nice and predictable. I'm wondering if I might be getting close to the limit of my tires. Also wondering what a really well prepared car is supposed to feel like.

Shocks will be the next thing, now that I have no clue what to do about LCAs.

I would like to try my hand at autocross as well, but I'm afraid they won't let me run without a roll bar.

 

I don't think that you will need a roll bar. I didn't, and I don't think that you will if you run in a stock or prepared stock class.

I am going to have all the problems fixed (I hope) when the rear is replaced. My regular mechanic is familar with aftermarket suspension, etc, and I trust him. So I will have him look at everything under the front after he does the rear swap, that way I will know what I need to do or if something is just loose.

I'm glad that you got your understeer under control. We both need to drive like Corvette or something and try to see if we can get close to that. I need to get mine right at the limit of my tires. I think I will get the BF Goodwrench GT-HRs next. Then I will have to reset the stuff so that I can get the understeer to their limit... I have 41 in the front and 39 in the rear. My max tire pressure cold it 44, so I think that is good and it rides well and handed well on the track.

There was some moron in a Mustang that was at the auto-x whose tire pressure was so low, that he turned to park, the rims touched the ground... .Yeah

My next big thing (after my springs and rear) will be the SCFs, that way I can get my headers and finish my exhaust. After that, I don't know. My Don't go cheap on the shocks struts. Go with at least the KYB AGXs. I hear they are good. Get the Konis if you can. I wished I had.

 

I had my heart set on Koni yellows, but have since decided on the Tokico Illuminas.

They are a little cheaper and can be adjusted to give a softer ride than the Konis in case I decide to take the car on the power tour or a trip or something.

At least this what I've gathered from what that Crazy Hawaiian and others have said.

Like you, though, I'm doing my header install next, as soon as my Y-pipe gets here from the good folks at Hooker.

 

I hadn't thought about Tokicos. There were some on ebay cheaper than what Spohn has them (I think). I may replace my Monroes with Tokicos sometime. I like the adjustables. Tour and sport .

I think I will have my whole exhaust ceramic coated before I have it hung. Not to sure, but I know I am doing the headers and probably the y-pipe. $95 for the headers, 10 buck a foot for piping.

My SFCs will go on at the same time as the exhaust. One, big fat bill for SFCs, headers, and exhaust. Removing the AIR/ smog pump at the same time. I think that the massivly confusing LCAs will take aback seat till I finish this other stuff. If I can convince my mom to give me my birthday money, I may get the Pro-Kits this week and have them put in with the rear. Got my speedo gears yesterday and should get the porponioning valve by Monday or Tuesday.

 

You cracked your frame under the steering box, thats what is making the popping noise.

Red, Get Koni yellows, no others compare if you want the car to handle. Why would you want to run soft on a powertour, I would want my car in ready trim and not soft and spongy looking going down the road in that company.

 

I've got the Spohn wonder bar. Isn't that supposed to prevent that? If I did, what do I do to fix it? I hope nothing too expensive.

 

You'll just have to find someone with good welding skills to mig it up for you. Shouldn't cost a fortune. I've never seen one of these crack, so I don't know what all you've got to get off to check it out.

I do know that I would check it out, though. If it is cracked and flexing there, the car will be crap and maybe dangerous 'til it's fixed.

I agree, however...I thought that was what put the wonder in wonderbar.

I guess even good aftermarket equipment stands little chance against the full force of GM lean engineering. (Cheap, cheaper, cheapest)



V6#, I want it to handle nicely but maintain enough ride civility to drive around Ft. Worth (read:bad) roads everyday. If my ride gets much stiffer than it is now, I'll probably like the car less regardless of potential skidpad #s. Our roads are really terrible for a city this size.

From what I have gathered, the Koni yellows are very harsh. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I plan to jack it up and check everything to make sure that if it is, I know where. Then my dad should be able to do it. He can weild.

 

...Or it was already cracked and weak before you ever put a wonderbar on there. Straining it autoXing probably broke it all the way through finally.

Case in point, if a frame is already cracked all the way through under the steering box, just adding a wonderbar does not make it safe to drive. It would still flex and pop. io in your case, if it may have been cracked but not broken, it is still weak. The wonderbar just help stiffen the area of support to aid in the frames strength, not entirely overshadow the frames structure...Make sense I hope

I have said on many occations in the past that by adding a wonderbar to your car... If you happen to notice a big improvement, then you had troubles with the car to begin with. YOU SHOULD NOT NOTICE ANY IMPROVEMENT TO STEERING BY ADDING A WONDERBAR- this goes to everyone. If you do, then get your frame checked for fatigue. the frame is already stressed and a wonderbar willnot entirley remedy it. The wonderbar is merely an added brace to prolong frame fatigue.

 

Ok, that is some sucky news.
I will look into fixing the frame.
I did notice a huge difference in the Wonderbra, so that is bad news. Maybe a frame check is a good thing. I need to check the straightness of the frame and the weakness in the front. So....
I'll have to have it all weilded up. Would that fix it, or does the problem go deeper?

 

People here say that it's pretty straightforward. I guess you've got to get the steering box out of the way, weld the cracks up, grind it smooth, paint it, then bolt the box back up.

I don't think the problem ever extends beyond the steering box area, though.

You might start a new thread and ask about it. There are lots of guys out there who've had to do this.

 

How about actually getting under the car and looking and seeing what is wrong rather then speculating? There are dozens of things that could make a popping besides a cracked frame rail, and it’s not all that common a thing to do. If it is broken, unbolt everything, clamp it back into position and start running beads. Once you have that done if it was me I’d grind the whole thing flat and make a reinforcing plate that bends around the area that cracks, with mounting holes in the proper locations. I’d weld it around the perimeter and add a few plug welds and make that section about as bullet proof as can be (as should have been from the factory).

Naw… All you really need is a suspension that isn’t noticeably broken (they will usually grab the front wheels and try to rock them in and out), a proper battery hold down and a helmet, and at most local events at least they usually have a dozen or so helmets that you can borrow.

If you’re planning on trying to be competitive in a class then you’ll have to meet the standards of the class (usually an issue of not having something rather then having something). I usually enter as “notcompetative” just because I don’t run often enough to rack up enough points to make a difference, and then I don’t really have to worry about what I’ve got in the car when I show up…

Why? I run Koni yellows on my daily driver in the DC Metro area (the state flower around here is the orange construction barrel to give you some idea how bad the roads are) with _no_ issues whatsoever.

I’m a firm believer in “run the best shocks that you can afford/justify” and since the price/performance curve gets really steep past Koni yellows that’s where I usually land. If I was made of money I’d seriously consider running penski’s

Harshness is from spring rate. Shocks need to be stiff enough to dampen the springs that you’re running, so if you’re having issues with them you’re probably pointing your finger at the wrong place.

I would suggest that for mostly low speed (say autox/normal street use) the rear Koni’s and high spring rates in the back are a bit much, and the car will be prone to being “fast” (oversteer). Some people like lesser shocks in the back or even something like a set of t-bird koni’s (same size/mounting but softer dampening). Years ago I used to run formula GP’s in the front and some cheap (probably their top of the line at the time) Gabriel shocks in the back which worked OK, now I generally just run the proper Yellow’s in the back at full soft and the fronts usually pretty close to full hard, since I like the high speed stuff too…, and instead I tune the F/R balance with different sway bars and bushings (the back tends to get stiffer as I run bigger back tires…, so I’m constantly changing things, and have probably half a dozen bars and different combinations of rubber and poly bushings for the rear, it would probably be easier in the long run to cut the ends off of something like a 24mm WS6 bar and weld on something adjustable… huh, I have 2 sitting around… too bad I just blew up the tranny in it so I guess I won't be experimenting for a little bit...)

 

If you ever do decide to do that with the swaybars, Ground Control has a kit you could use. In my opinion the "best" dampener out there is relative because the springs and dampeners work together. So since we're all using different spring setups, I dont think anyone can say one dampener is better than the other. But you could definately say one worked great for your setup and was worth the money. But to be honest I dont think it would really matter for a street car, only the guys looking to really set the car up perfect for track racing need to worry about it. For a street car I think its safe to go with dampeners that are generally accepted as good and worth the money. I went with the Tokiko Illuminas on my track only IROC-Z because they were cheap and 5 way adjustable. Koni's are a great dampener, I'm running the reds on my Z28 and I love them. But because the Koni's are 3 way adjustable, I figgured I would have a better chance at finding a good setting for my IROC-Z (in relation to the spring setup) with the Illuminas because there are more levels of adjustability. The thorn in my side is that not all manufacturers release the valving spec sheets that tell you what they are at each setting. So levels 1 through 5 on the Illuminas could give you valving specs that are not within the range of levels 1 through 3 on the Koni's (they could be below or above). Because there is no baseline that everyone works from, there really is no way to know whats going to happen before installing and trying them out. So it kind of gets us back to the idea that you need to experiment and try a bunch of different setups to find the one that you like the best. So I started with the cheapest ones first. Hahaha!! One thing is for sure, on full hard (setting 3 on Koni red, setting 5 on Illumina) the Konis are definately much stiffer. Its very possible I could try all different variations of the Illumina settings and still not find one I like. We'll see what happens. If these Illuminas dont do it for me I'm gonna give the Koni Yellows a try. I have a set of Carrera struts still en route to me that can be re-valved to spec but I haven't had enough track time with different setups knowning the actual valving specs to know what valving specs would be optimal yet. Its gonna take some time to find out ...

 

Although I agree in theory, in practice I’ve found that the yellows are just much better then everything I’ve tried with all the combinations I tried. Even yellows in not the right setting work better then other shocks/struts.

I had one car that I bought with a lot of handling parts already on it and spent 2 months trying to figure out “what the hell is loose in the rear suspension that’s causing that wonky handling.” It almost felt like snap oversteer but not quite, it was just bizarre. I had a friend (SERIOUS local autoxer) that kept telling me “just slap that set of yellows in there and it will go away,” but I was stubborn thinking that “yea, they may not be great shocks, but they must be working, there is no oscillation… and this feels like something is wrong/broken.”

Funny thing is that I guess the issue was that I was used to the yellows on similar cars and as soon as I finally did put them in, guess what, it went away, the thing handled “right.”

 

Their is anight and day difference between Koni Yellows and Koni Reds. Reds are mushy and lower valved. Yellows have a much higher quality valving system that eliminates low speed damper slop.

And CH, its Damper, not dampener. a dampener gets things wet.

 

You guys alwsays make my head spin.
I have looked under my car (so had my friend) and we cannot see anything that stands out. I looked in from the top, too. I don't really know what the deal is.
I don't want a moster track car. I just want something that handles better than most street cars. I think that the Koni Yellows with the Pro-Kit will work great for me. I have no money to experiment with, so anything I do will probably stay. When you consider that just the struts and shocks will run me over 650 bucks....
But, as for now, I am just trying to get the rear in, get the brakes working well, and get all the stuff I have now (stock and otherwise) from being funky. I'll have the mechanic (I don't know how to weild and Dad is out of town on a hunting trip and won't have the time to do it when he gets back) wield in the plate that you mentioned.
I think that when I get all my stuff fixed and working right, I will wait for anything else major (excluding the SFCs and finishing my exhaust) untill I can start working more this summer, when school lets out. Then, I will pour all the money I can make into the car (including, I hope, the LT1 and T56) untill school starts back. Then I will be on here spending hours talking to you guys about our next projects . But, then again, if we all couldn't get on here and talk about all this, then we would be making some big and expensive mistakes all the time (my flippin Monroes) .

PS, what about the QA1 12-way adjustable rear shocks?

 

Well, this has been a great thread. So anyway, I'm finished with my suspension now except for a set of quality shocks and struts. Will Koni yellows make my car ride rougher than it does right now? I've been leaning towards Reds because my wife and I take long (fast) trips on the highway and she likes the way it is right now. I don't want to lose any ride quality as the car is pretty stiff already. Basically I've replaced all front end parts including the strut bearing plates. Mods are hotchkiss tie rod sleves, Spohn tubular a-arms with spring boxes, wonderbar, subframe connectors, tubular lca's, adjustable panhard bar, and all rubber has been replaced with poly. Oh, and Eibach pro kit springs. Driving is like riding on rails right now and thats using two year old monroe sens-a-tracs front and back.

 

Hey, post a picture of your car so I can see where yours sets. Just about any performance shock/strut will make the ride harsher. I think that with the adjustments set on soft, you should be stiffer, but not terribly. The Illuminas will be softer, but not as good handling. Plus, they have 5 adjustments, so you have more ride options. I'm not going to make a reccomendation, but I will tell you what facts I know. My car (for fast road trips on state highways) does great now with the Monroes, but they are pretty new. I can keep up with a buddy's 94 LT1, n/p except for actual accelerating/speed. As for serious backroading, I need something stiffer.

If it were me, and I had a wife who liked the car the way it rides now, I would probably get the Illuminas. But that is just me.

 

What can I say, where I'm from everyone calls them dampeners. This is probably because Hawaii is heavily influenced by the Sport Compact Market and parts from Japan (they call them dampeners in Japan). No biggie anyway, they both mean the same thing.

So far Koni is the only one I know of that releases the valving spec sheets. I really wish Tokiko and others would do the same. The Reds are definately valved differently according to the sheets (in the lower ranges) but they still work great for the street. I wouldnt exactly consider them mushy, but then again, I've never had Yellows to compare against.

I think you guys should just install the Koni's without thinking twice (either Reds or Yellows). I have a feeling the ride quality will get better, not worse.

 

Reds will give you high speed stabilty feelings but once you hammer the brakes or have to do a panic swerve you will still have too much weight transfer since the rebound settings are too low for any real perfomance. Even my yellows on the lowest settings make the car handle like crap. The *** end will jack braking hard from 100 down to 20 and the rear u-joint wioll actually slightly come into contact with the exhaust I-pipe. So even Koni Yellows on the lowest settings are crap- and I have a very lightweight heavy springs frontend with no brake dive and progressive rear coils that reduce jacking combined with a lowered rear roll setting. If Koni Yellows on the lowest setting don't work for me, then you heavier V8 linear spring guys arereally having rear jacking problems under heavy braking weight transfer- unless you do not have the braking force and traction I have. When your perfornmance levels increase, then you need the rebound dampering high especially on the rear andthe roll center lowered on the rear.

 

My braking isn't very good. It is all stock, but that will change soon. If the Yellows aren't very good on low, then how about the higher setting? I want to get more stability at 100+ mph. It does fine till about 90-95, then it goes to floating. Not that it is scary or loose, just not as tight as I want. It would be bad to have to turn hard or brake hard. I want it to feel like it is on rails til I get scared. Anything I can do (other than the $650 struts/shocks) that'll help that?

Has any of this helped JDF-Z28?

 

I've done many 140mph+ freeway runs with my Reds on the highest settings and the car feels really stable, no issues, not even when braking or having to make quick corrections at higher speeds. I'm pretty sure the spring setup is what makes the car feel so much more stable, it wasn't like this when I was running off-the-shelf Eibach progressive springs. Also, the wheel/tire change to smaller sidewalls 40/35 made a huge difference in the response at higher speeds, makes it feel much more stable.

 

Where do you live that this is happening and you still retain your drivers license/freedom? Here in Texas the Troopers put you in jail for a good long time for that.

Like I said my car rides on rails already, 80 to 0 standing on the brakes and my ride makes me smile. I just need a little more for the twisties in the hill country and or some autox parking lot fun.

 

Your car is setup for drifting, there is now way in hell it will grip like mine. You are not experiencing even close to the braking g's I am, I can guarantee that no matter what profile tires you are running unless you are running 'R' compounds. I would figure someone with at least a little driving experience like you supposedly have would know better than to make the above comment being very familiar with what is done to my Camaro and knowing what track its been on and what local competition I have anihilated. My car would be scarier than crap with koni reds on it at 140. The valving is too low to control my spring rate even at 80 never the less hitting road imperfections at 140. I could not run this car with these high rate springs without the higher damper forces of Koni yellows on the higher settings. You are full of it and you are preaching to the wrong guy with lots of experience with these cars (and many other types also) Your *opinion* of stable is a far different comfort zone than my *opinion*- Koni reds are a POS

Sorry to sound so harsh, but thats the factual truth. My car would dong all over the place at high speed compressions when the springs recoil too quickly on rebound with inferior Koni reds. Your springs are much softer rate than mine, thus your car must be unloading more and just sliding and or brake fade in order not to be suffering from chassis jacking coming down from speed. Do you have your roll center adjusted for the lowering job? If not, then you have no braking g's to render enough worry otherwise you wouldn't be claiming what you are. ANy shock can be stable at speed on a smooth road. Try hitting a bumpor dip at 140 with those then report back to me after you clean your shorts.

Again, here I am argueing a point (and making friends again- yes I'm being sarcastic) Why? so anyone reading this wanting to buy Koni reds based of of what crazyhawiian is claiming they do will not waste their money buying Koni reds and finding out what reality is after its too late and they made the wrong choice. Koni Yellows are barely adequate for what I do in this car occationally, but they are by far the best over-the-counter shock/strut purchase you can make for a 3rd gen. Pressing your car this hard with anything else over-the-counter will not give you the results if you ever get the rest of the car to its potentiall.; Remember, I pull 1.07l ateral g's and it pulls 60-0 in 102 feet all on street tires (280 treadwear), not racing rubber. When yopu can pull those kind of # then you are experiencing what I am talking about with rear jacking. I highly doubt there is anyone else on this board pulling even .97 lateral g's on street tires or pulling any better than 120ft 60-0's. If so, then show me the # and the proof.

JDF- the answer is: On a track.

 

Just to let you know, I own 2 cars, one of them is an IROC-Z setup for drifting, the other a Z28 setup for freeway racing. I'm not saying my car performs better than anyone elses car, I'm not even trying to compare anything. In fact, I wasnt even talking to you, I was talking to these other guys that are looking to buy new dampeners. I'm simply giving my experiences and trying to help them out. Did I say the Reds were the best dampeners out there or something? You are tripping out. I think I have been very fair in what I'm saying, I've never said one part is the best. I have said that it is not easy for someone to find the best part for their setup because #1 everyone has different driving styles and their own personal favorite feel for the car and #2 suspension works as a combo and everyone giving their opinion is using different parts to build their combo. So keeping this in mind I think we can all be happy that Yellows work great for you, but we should remember that we dont own your car and other people might have different experiences depending on the rest of their suspension setup, their tires, and their driving ability. I think we should be able to agree that there is a posibility out there (however slight you may think) that other people might be happy with other dampeners on their car. I also never have claimed to be an experienced driver with a bunch of knowhow. I attend track days once a month when my car works. This is hardly enough seat time to build an ego for myself. You apparently have had quite a bit of seat time.

 

The characteristics of shock absorbers hardly ever get the attention they deserve, despite the damper being responsible for comfort, roadholding, stability and safety.
Below is a force velocity graph of a KONI SPECIAL and a KONI SPORT shock, both designed for the same vehicle. The graph displays the adjustment ranges for both shocks. The pink area shows the adjustment range where both shocks are equal in value. The red area indicates that portion unique to the KONI Special, while the yellow area is specific to the Sport shock only.
When a car accelerates, brakes or rolls, typical damper speeds are in the (A) area. Damper speeds caused by road surface irregularities usually are in the (B) area. Whereas KONI Special dampers are more biased towards comfort, KONI Sport dampers are so towards handling.
The shape of the characteristics is of great importance: the KONI experts use this information in development.

Externally adjustable damper
These dampers are at the high-end of our range. They can be adjusted while remaining mounted on the car so that damping levels can be adapted to personal requirements in a matter of seconds.

 

Thats alot of rebound on those Yellows...seems that would make for a pretty harsh ride cranked all the way up. It also looks like Reds on medium and Yellows on low are very similar.

 

Thats is exactrly why I stated above that I can not run my with yellows hard on low rebound settings, nor would the reds work. Yellows on low rebound and reds on high are about the same. They will not control the weight transfer under braking and turn roll on low settings.

I while back I finally installed a panhard relocation bracket on the car (one of those back burners things I knew I needed but put off) since I really had rear jacking effects taking place with the new brake system. Coming down very hard from anything above about an 80mph rapid decrease was a problem. Whats that mean exactly? Any slowdown down from like 120 to 60 was not bad because the dwell time on the brakes was not a long enough period but something like 80 to 0 or 120 to 40 (aprox 80mph deceases) would render enough dwell time with prolonged rear to front weight transfer that the rearend had time to unload where the shock extened enough due to rear jacking.

Rear jacking is caused by the front roll center being much lower than the rear and under braking force the nose of the car can go down and/or the rear of the car goes up due to the inclined angle of the roll axis. Softer the rear rebound and softer the front compression dampers cause more rear to front weight transfer. Furthermore, with a higher rear rebound setting, it will control and slowdown the rear to front transfer rendering a longer dwell time to unload the rear springs. This happens if the roll centers are inclined towards the front of the car. Third gens have this problem, its worse when the car is lowered, the geometry is thrown off even more unless you add provisions to correct it. Most people do not have these provisions added, and if you don't then what I am discribing is unavoidable- yet it can be reduced with better damper control.

Now even with the roll center corrected but reduced valving, the initial braking force exerted on the chassis and the damper forces is very crutical to how the car will react in a *longer dwell braking period* lower speed stuff usually is fine without major problems, but high speed braking and high speed transitioning in long duration turns and slowdowns will not maintain a decent enough attitude to keep the car at safe levels of performance when the roll axis jacks chassis weight too much too rapidly.

I always ran my Camaro with the yellows on the rear on max rebound. With the brake system change I made, the slower speed braking was not really affected but high sped braking changed alot. The leverage of the front brakes started lifting the rear of the car (since the front is so heavily springed it barely dives under hard braking- the front suspension NEVER travels more than 1 1/2" on this car) under long dwell braking situations because under prolonged period the combovalve would settle and the fronts took over. The fronts had so much pulldown force compared to the olds the car rotated on the front wheels and started lifting the rear wheels(combo valves spike the rear pressure first making contact a to reduce a yaw effect under braking then settle back to increase the front pressure to follow into an even braking bias) I would begin to lock the rears from weight transfer and too high of rear rebound to maintain contact- it was a problem of the inclined roll axis. The high rebound would control it for low speed stuff but higher speed longer duration braking would yeild enough time for the shocks to release enough where the roll axis inclined enough that it went into a domino snap incline effect the more it progressed.

I installed the long needed panhard relocator and played with the settings of it, the shock rebound, and the swaybar (eventually went about 1 1/4" down with the rear roll center and had to go back up to my 25mm rear swaybar from the 23mm.) I then tried to play with the shock settings to see if I could refine things more. I first tried one click down, and so on-4 different settings on them (0-3, 3 being highest rebound damper setting). Anything below #2 setting the car would still jack on high speed prolonged duration braking periods because the rear would unload too quickly at first initial force and would continue to domino. It still needed at least #2 to prevent too much jacking under extreme braking force (my brakes are about as extreme as you can get- one of a kind custom setup). If I lower the rear roll center any more the cornering steady state starts to be affected and reduces cornering g's and the car turns in heavy.

keepin mind this is all with about 820 lb front coils, progressive rear coils (that reduce rear jacking effect) Koni Yellows and a light weight front end (I have 300lbs less nose weight then you V8 cars). If I still have these problemswith a V6, the V8 cars are really bad especially since most of you run lower rate front springs and no roll center adjustments.

Buy Koni Yellows, it is the single best thing you can do for your 3rd gen to help it perform and overcome the notorious push-to-snap oversteer the V8's have due to the roll center problems frim the factory. Reds do not have enough rebound to control the chassis under hard performance driving.

 

On a lowered V8 car (since this thread is about lowered suspension modifications), I would high suggest you guys to buy not only the Jegs panhard relocator, but also *more importantly* buy some extended ball joints to raise the front roll center of the car. This will take some effort to get the car at a correct ride height and spring rate. the extended ball joints will lower your car 1/2" more so for them to work properly and raise the front roll center you will have to shim the front coils back to the original ride height before they were installed.

V8's are heavier and have more front roll weight in cornering. By only lowering the back roll center say 1 1/2" and leaving the front down from the lowering job(no extended ball joints added) will render too much leverage above the front roll center. It is best to reduce the front roll weight leverage on a V8 3rd gen by using extended ball joints when the car is lowered.

I would go down 1 " in the rear roll centerand add the extended balljoints & coil spacers to go up 1/2" in the front roll center, rather than just go 1 1/2" down on the rear roll center.

 

Over steer and under steer are two often misunderstood concepts related to the way a car handles. The following explanations should clear up any confusion you may have.
Over steer
Over steer is when the rear wheels are carving a larger arc than the front wheels or the intended line of the turn. Rear "slip angles" exceed those of the front tires. This is often described as a "loose" condition, as the car feels like it may swap ends, or be "twitchy."
This condition can be caused by "power over steer", where you need to reduce power in order to bring the back end back into line.
Under steer
Under steer is when the front wheels are carving a larger arc than the rear wheels. This is often described as "push" or "pushing" - as the front end feels like it is plowing off of a corner.
Further acceleration only compounds the push, as weight shifts back to the rear drive wheels off of the front turning wheels, leading to a further lessening of the car's ability to turn in.
Under steer can be remedied by slight modulation in throttle to transfer weight forward to the front wheels, aiding their traction and ability to carve the turn.
Many cars are designed to have a tendency to under steer. If the driver gets uncomfortable and "lifts" off the gas, that will cause the front end to tighten the curve - a relatively safer, and more predictable condition.

When the car's body leans in a corner, the outside suspension compresses and the inside suspension extends. In other words, the outside suspension moves in bump direction and the inside suspension moves in rebound direction

Tuning Tips
If the car rolls on the rear outside suspension during corner exit, increase rebound damping force at the front inside. The front inside suspension affects the car mostly on corner exit. By adding rebound damping you will loosen the car up on corner exit.

If the car rolls on the front outside during corner entry, increase rebound damping on the rear inside suspension.

By adding rebound damping to the front on both sides equally, it will tighten the car some.
By adding rebound damping to the rear on both sides equally, it will loosen the car up some.

Note that the shock absorbers do not change the amount of weight transfer, only the time it takes to transfer this weight.

Only adjust enough rebound into each shock absorber to eliminate the undesirable characteristic. Adjusting too much rebound may mask a handling problem of another sort and may even be make things worse and dangerous.

(I got this from Koni also)

 

Here are some pics for the non NASCAR fans

Loose!

 

And the other one...

Tight!

 

You know what, I am going start driving a train. This is too deep for my blood. All this theory and extra mods... my car is a street car, and I don't have anywhere to push it to the limits you guys do. I plan to get new springs, shocks/struts, SFCs, tubular LCAs, relocation brackets for LCAs and PHB (I guess). And new brakes all around. This should put me somewhere above most street cars. If I ever get the money, I will start sending you guys that have the experience a lot of emails.
All this is great, so keep up the dialogue everyone. I kept up with all this and I love it. I just need not to read it so late at night.

Brake question, the experience is all around...
Slotted rotors?

 

I use them. Why? They clean off overheated glazing of low street temp pads when you get them too hot. They scape off the pads to fresh compound. They do wear pads quicker though. I really like slotted rotors for street use so you can run a normal non-warmup pad that actually works when cold. Racing compounds 1) make noise at low speeds (moan, grind, squeal, etc) its the nature of the harder compound racing pads that soften with high heat and 2) do not work from cold startup conditions. However, street compounds can not hold high heat or they glaze. So in the event you are pressing them and you get the temps up to about 600-1000* range, the slots will clean the pads back off.

ps- about riding a train, my license plate on this car reads "OnARail"

 

To 91_5.7_TPI, in my opinion you dont need slotted rotors for an average street car. Unless you're running racing brakes with special compound pads and you drive the car hard stop and go over and over, then it can make a difference. But for the average street car that does light to light races and stuff like that, you probably would not notice a difference between slotted and stock (aside from appearance). For my street cars that see average street use I just get the stock rotors turned (assuming there is enough material left) and this works fine. For street cars that see above-average use (for example mountain racing or top end freeway racing) then I would consider slotted rotors along with better pads.

But you know, while reading this you should consider that I apparently do impossible things with my Koni Reds, which are also apparently the worst dampeners ever built. And its very likely that what I've said above will be considered impossible.

 

Dammit. Well now I'm about convinced off of the illuminas and back onto the yellows.

Too bad, I passed on a new pair of front yellows a week or so ago on ebay that went for a bargain price.

You know...I thought I was doing good noticing that my rear end-link sleeves were a little too long, messing up my sway bar geometry a bit, but now, all of a sudden, I have about a k'jillion other things to think about.

How do you guys verify improvements to the handling of your car? Seat-of-the-pants tests only go so far. You guys use skidpads, lap times, g-meters or what?

 

I think that I joined the local F-body club and since we go on weekly cruises on the local mountain highways and nopw I am getting into some auto-x, I will need the best brakes I can afford. So, I think that I will go with the Hawks HPS pads and some slotted rotors. The slotted may come a little later, but I will get them.

I know about the k'jillion things. I need to stop thinking about all this stuff untill I can afford it, otherwise I will never get out of college. All this stuff in the underside of a car. And I thought that motors were complicated. I may never race alot, but I want a car that can out-do most of the stuff in my club.... Well, not in speed category, but at least in the cornering and mountains. That is mostly what we do anyway.

 

I really can't test my cars on the street at the magnitude they peform. You just can't get things hot enough going one whole blockl ength and then turning a corner and then down another block length... and so on. First I would draw way too much attention at the speeds I need to obtain to get this car to break traction.

Secondly, to break traction on the street is very hard to do because the streets are so unpredictable with constant changes (oil, water, dirt,etccc... on the roads.. g()d knows who spilled what on the ground out of the bed of a truck around the next corner). Streets are impossible to get warmth into a cars setup and get predictable comparisons. Anyone can slide a car around a street corner and make alot of racket but it takes finess to drive a car through a corner fast as it slips on edge with those unperdictablestreet conditions- it could be deadly- besides, I drive slower that anyone you will ever see going through residential neighborhood. I do not like people speeding down my street, so I do not drive fast down others. I drive fast down open sections of freeways (when availiable) and freeway changeovers, on/off ramps and always leave a lane for margin of error. In other words, the lane next to me is the wall (even though it is not) so if I slip over a lane unexpectedly, I do not hit the real wall- though in my mind I just did. Thats the only way you can drive fast on the strret testing a cars abiltiy. To hell with some idiot wnating to race you and taking the whole road, let 'em go- they are dangerous and not worth it. If they want to try and stay in a lane like I do then they are slow.

Now for real testing, its is best to test your car on a closed venue like an autoX course- for two main reasons:

1) being the old preached statement that you are indangering other peoples lives driving like an idiot on the street- I will be first to sound old and reitterate this, however, I am a hyppocrate so to speak that I do drive fast on public roads *but* when I am by my self and away from other vehicle- I DO NOT RACE OTHER CARS ON THE STREET. I drive fast but flow and pretty much never use my brakes on a freeway, If have to use brakes then I am driving too fast for the flow of traffic.

I built my cars so they can safely flow about 10mph faster than traffic nd can respond quickly even though I am traveling quicker than most. My car will stop from 90mph faster than 90% of the car on the road will stop from 65mph. I can stop faster in a 65mph .5g turn than most cars can stop in a straight line stop. This does make me safer driving faster than most, but its still not legal if something where to happen- I would still be at fault for speeding. Food for thought- leave a margin for error. You could loose your house or even end up in jail for life

2) Now if I have scared you enough by now( or just sound lkike your grandfather) The other main reason to test a car on an autoX course of raod racing course is it is so much easier to slide a car predictably when you get the tires hot. the car will just dance and it is so easy to put it on edge you can easily tell comparisons to what changes you just made- You can not get tires hot enough on the street to be able to drive a car like this.
If you are geting your tires this hot on the street, then look up becuae you are probably being tailed by a police helicopter and are on local news. You would draw that much attention to yourself and be endangering others in order to get the car to racing tempsand predictable cornering slipangles.

 

Forget that… you can’t realistically push a performance car, any performance car on the street to know it’s real limits. Period.

And you may be in total control, but you never know when some idiot will steal his stepfather’s car and come flying out of a blind parking lot right in front of you or something like that (I had exactly that happen to me, there was no such thing as reacting, the guy that was in the lane next to me about 50’ back even hit him as he spun around in the air after my initial impact with him, the kid’s car landed about 50’ or more down the road facing in the opposite direction that it started in).

The fact is that I was in total control of the car I would have been in total control of that car 30mph faster, but neither would make any difference in this case, and if I was going 20-30mph faster I’m pretty sure that I would have killed him, the impact was not my fault, and in both cases I would have been operating safely within my and my cars limits, but a very good argument could be made that even though the dumbasses actions resulted in the accedent, if I was going faster that could have been the difference between him getting a ticket for his actions and me getting arrested for vehicular manslaughter.

Secondly, it is very difficult to have consistent enough conditions on the road to get an accurate assessment of performance changes. You can asses the difference in feel, but feel doesn’t always = performance, and changing conditions, a bit of gravel in a turn or a dip, extra trash on the road… all will have a bigger effect on performance then changes to the car.

Lastly, when all is said and done, driver skill will have a much bigger impact on actual performance then all the mods that we discuss here (assuming that you’re comparing a stock, say IROC or WS6 suspension to one with all the goodies on it)

 

Well...there's a solo2 meet in town on November 20th. I think I'll give it a whirl.

I know I'm getting off topic, but assuming they let me run, what should I do to prepare, aside from further mods on the car?

I'll be on Kumhos. Do I try to warm them up before running? Should I go on a diet now?

How can I expect the stock disc/drum brakes to hold up?

An acquaintance of mine solos a stock v6 late model mustang, and says he does real well against later lt1 and ls1 f-bodies.

If this is the case, should I even show up in my LB9 automatic pile. Does a third gen have anything going for it against a V8 4th gen, or anything else for that matter?

 

Mustangs suck stock. I have a friend that drives a GT patrol car. Thirdgens are alot better handling than Fourthgens. Everyone I know that has had both will tell you that. You should do quiet well. He went to Bowling Green F-Body Invasion and got 3rd overall. But he has driving training, too.

 

I'll probably just fiddle with my end link length to get my sway bar geometry on target and go with it. I'm worried about the stock brakes.

Other than driving fast all the time, I have no autoX type skills at all.

Wearing a helmet with the top up is gonna suck. My head hits the top bow all the time anyway. Maybe they'll let me put the top down. It would be safer than me trying to race with my head tilted to the side.

Unfortunately, I have a bunch of other junk to spend money on for the next month or so.

When I get my Y-pipe from Hooker, I'll do the headers, then the car will probably have to wait until after Christmas before anything else gets done. I can hardly wait.

Oh yeah, I might get the SFCs welded up. They made a difference bolted in, but I'm sure they can be better.

 

Dean and crossfire just sort of agreed on something; must be a full moon. I also agree on this only push the limits of your car in a controlled environment. Autocross is a great way to go. Your car soulnds like it should be in street mod so you will have some really fast cars to compete against depending on the region.

 

Wow. That is about all I can say.

Souless -- Heck, Dean, Mark, and Myself all agree on the driving on the street, testing point. This may be a complete first! in fact, we actualy agree on two points here, that being the there is no substatute for Koni Yellows, the reds are not even in the same league.

CrazyH -- You in over your head now, the comments about slotted/drilled rotors, show what you don't know. Also, the "mountain racing or top end freeway racing". Could you please take the word racing out of there, it is not racing. Lets instead call it "Mountain ***-clownery, or freeway stupidity).

redliterunner -- Don't bother with mods for auto-x just yet. The most important mod is the nut behind the wheel. . Go out have fun, and hopefully learn some valuable lessons about car control, and performance driving. Once you get hooked on Auto-x, you can have some real fun, and go to a HPDE event, and a good track, with some good instructors.

Now, back to the koni red vs yellow topic.

Dean has brought up rebound dampening, and the coversation keeps talking about stiffness and ride quality. This is not the case, notice that the compression valving between the two is very similar, this is what gives it the 'comfort', that coupled with the spring rates. The advatage that Koni has over the other shocks/struts on the market, is that under adjustment the rebound valving is what changes. Most adjustable shocks on the market, adjust both compression and rebound at the same time. It is the compression adjustments that make the ride feel "harsh" compared to say a set of KYB's. With proper shocks/struts, a car can be very comfrotable, and drivable, even with some pretty insane spring rates.

Mark -- Price point / performance. Have you looked into a set of custom valved bilsteins, or custom Koni revalves?? Both UE and Strano offer revalve options, and will work with you on the exact valving for you combo. It will come in significantly less than Penske, but should be miles ahead of off the shelf koni's in terms of performance.

 

I’ve owned a few of each, and currently own the ’87 formula 350 and ’97 WS6 TA… the WS6 handles like a pregnant whale…, I like the 3rd gens…

Autox really isn’t that much harder on your car then aggressive street driving, I woudn’t stress about parts and other BS.

heh, my formula is the first hard top f-body that I’ve owned… the first time I took it to the track I pulled into the water box, jambed my helmet on and found my head wedged between the steering wheel and the roof. I actually had to get out of the car to get my helmet back off…

I ended up cutting and rewelding the seat rails so that the seat went roughly 2” further back, and all the way back it slides down to the floor… that way when I’m in the car I’m practically sitting on the floor, where my wife slides the seat forward to drive it and it goes back up to stock height there…