If someone installs Eibach Pro-Kit springs, are there are any modifications needed for the suspension such as tie rods, control arms or anything like that beyond just the springs?

 

If you want the suspension geometry to work optimally, yes, you will need an adjustable torque arm, adjustable lower control arms, adjustable panhard bar, and LCA relocation brackets. You probably also need new shocks and struts to work with the shortened ride height and more aggressive springs.

If you're not all that concerned about supreme handling, springs alone are probably fine, though you may still need shocks and struts.

 

I have a new shocks/struts already, so I am going to hate to have replace them again. My car already sets within a half inch of some of the people that I have talked to that have Sportlines, so I hope they will be ok.
I already have the adjustable Panhard and was planning on the other stuff too. Do you think it would be better to get the rest of the stuff and then get the springs?

 

It wouldn't hurt but it won't really matter either way. The main thing is to have the adj panhard rod and LCA relocation brackets. The adj torque arm and LCA's aren't really needed. The lower ride height puts a tremendous strain on any strut/shock combo therefore reducing their lifespan. I would spend some money for a quality set that is meant to be beat on.

 

I'd like to get in on this thread. Hope you guys don't mind.

I recently put a pro kit spring set on my car and replaced all the front end wear parts, using poly bushings. Also put in replacement shocks and struts. Cornering is much improved although the ride quality is slightly harsher. Overall I like it.

Now I've got to do the rear and have many of the same questions you have. The rear of my Camaro sits a little higher than I would like, and would like to know how to get it down a little more. I guess the spring isolators can be removed, but I couldn't figure out how to get them out when the car was apart.

I already planned on getting tube LCAs and an adjustable panhard rod. What about the LCA relocation stuff and adjustable LCAs. What' the point of these two things? Pinion angle?

Thanks in advance.

 

Follow up question.

There are lots of LCAs and panhard rods and such made or sold by lesser known companies on ebay for pretty good prices. Has anybody had any problems with any of these products? If I'm going to keep this car, I'll need to replace just about everything on it within the next year or so. I'll be happy to save a buck here and there if I can. Any opinions would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

I don't know about the quality of anything but Spohn, but here is this link . It may help you with questions about LCA's

What set would be ones to get that are made to beat on?

 

Well, that helps. About 60,000 feet over my head, but helpful nonetheless.

 

Yeah, Over my head too, but at least you know what you are looking for when you modify the rear end suspension. I feel better about buying LCAs and stuff now with these guys to bounce questions off of.

 

Hey, here is a explaination as to why the stuff works the way it does. Thanks to Bemn109!!

 

Now that helps a bunch. Still don't know why the length of the LCA needs to be adjustable, though.

And still not sure how to get the back of my car down another inch or so. Seems like I'd better get my ride height problem worked out before anything else.

 

Have your tried to re-position the isolator and or remove it to see how much lower the rear goes? You can always cut a tiny bit off of the spring to achieve the stance you want. The springs will settle a touch but only a small amount (less than .25").

 

These springs have been in for a couple of months and I drive the car every day, so I think they've settled by now.

I couldn't get the isolators to move when I had the springs out. I expected to be able to work them out by hand, but they wouldn't budge. If I could get them out, can I drive the car without them, or what?

I was really careful to index the springs into the isolators so I don't think it's an installation problem. I guess I'll hack a bit off the chassis end of the spring and see what happens. I'd like to go down about an inch. Think a half coil would be a good start?

I've cut springs on other cars, and I know how unpredictable it can be. I didn't really want to start cutting them, but want the car level.

Advice is appreciated.

 

How tall of a tire are you running? Also, what is the gap between the top of the tire and the fender lip? You may just want to look for a set of rear sportline springs.

 

You can remove the isolators. Some people put a piece of hose over the top coil to reduce some of the noise. Doing this will lower the back by about 3/4". Are you sure that the springs are lined up properly in the isolators? If they are not that can cause a 1/2" lift.

 

Yeah, when I put tires on it, I put 255s on the rear. They raised it more than I expected, but the spring install made it look a bit worse. When the car's full of gas, the look is marginal. When it's near E, it's a little too high. I'm probably picking nits, but I think 3rd gens look best low and level.

My front fender gap is 1.5 inches and the rear is 2.5, full of gas. Like I said, I'd like them to be about the same. If I had 245s all around, the rear would sit lower, but the gap would probably be greater.

What about the adjustable LCA question.... Why do I need adjustables?

Thanks.

 

I already had a hunk of rubber hose pushed onto each rear coil when I started the install, but took it off when I couldn't get the isolators out. What's it take to get the damn things out?

Thanks

 

Mine fell out when I removed the springs. They are just stuck. They do not bolt in or anything, just pry them out.

 

Guess I'll put a little more effort into getting the isolators out. Maybe this weekend, if it's not 100 degress out. I'd probably be happy with 3/4 of an inch, and not having to hack on my springs.

I cut up 3 sets of springs before I got the front of my 69 camaro right, and I can't afford to give Eibach that much business. My rear seats are out right now for a carpet change anyway...putting them back in might help a tad too.

Still not sure why I need to shell out the extra $ for adjustable LCAs.

Thanks.

 

I think it has something to do with recentering the wheel in the wheel well to get the correct ride/suspension geometry after lowering. Kinda like the panhard bar, just back to front, instead of side to side. NOTE: I said think. I am not sure, but I remember reading that somewhere or other.

Hey, try sending Spohn an email and ask him if you can't find it here.

BTW, I'll take the crappy TPI 305 if you don't want it. Can't be worse than my prestine L03. (TBI 305)

 

Well... I guess I shouldn't beat up on the old 305 too much. It's been a pretty good motor (now 130,000mi). Poor thing just doesn't have much help, given the auto trans and 2.xx rear gear. 15.80s, on the motor, last time I took it out, which has been a while. It took me a long time to accept a SBC that couldn't really rev past 5000.

But it's stayed alive through nitrous, infrequent oil changes, and the thirteen years of Oklahoma dust that I've put it through. *** knows how the testosterone soaked ******* teenaged prior owner treated it. He told me how the car would do donuts all night long and fly through the air if you hit the railroad tracks fast enough on Willow street. Car had 42,000 on it then, but he "wonted uh peekup".

First few months after I bought it, kids (teen boys) would stop me on the street and regail me with stories of getting sh*tfaced and doing the bo and luke thing with their buddies in that car. I had to force a few laughs.

 

You can rev a SBC over 5000. Just need a 4 bolt and a steel crank and be sure your clearances and everything is good. And you may not even need the 4 bolt.
That poor car. I'm surprised you could drive it after that.

 

I think you're probably right about the adjustable lower control arm thing. It seems that the pinion angle would be set by the torque arm. Guess I'll start shopping around for all adjustable stuff. Never had a car with an variable wheelbase before. Looks like I can get LCAs and P-rod off ebay for the measly sum of 264.95. Spherical on one end and poly on the other. Single adjustable, though. Cheaper, but more hassle.

Gearheads love SBCs because they're cheap, reliable, and love to rev. Any old 350 with headers and a 650 CFM carb will pull to 6000. The stock TPI completely puts a stop to that sh*t. It has it's good points, to be sure, but will never go down in history as a race induction.

 

Yeah, all those adjustabilities are neceasary, but they are just more things to mess up or come loose, as well. I am about to replace my whole rear end (axles, rear differential and brakes) so I am going to replace the LCA brakets and sway bar at the same time. Shortly after that, I am going to replace springs and the LCAs as well. I like to keep a certain amount of financial cushion in the bank or I would do it all at the same time. My rear end is starting to develop some body roll and it tends to pull to the outside of a turn when I am under throttle. I figure the LCA brackets and the sway bar will help some, but the springs and LCAs should put a total stop to it. I am going to go get times on the parking lot of the local high school. It is FLAT but has painted driving course on it. Nothing too daring but fun. I'll do it before and after all the repairs/ mods, just to compare. I have a friend that can drive it 35 mph in a 95 Neon. Oh, in reverse. That guy can drive.

 

Same here. Got a PBR 1le type axle not long ago that needs some work. If the weather ever cools off here in Tx, I'll get busy on it. I'd like to have the rear suspension dialed in before I change axles, though.

I'm using my stock sway bars, so it looks like 350.00 or so should cover the back except for an aftermarket torque arm. Don't really know why I need in a different torque arm. Guess I'll have a look at my pinion angle after I do the rest of the stuff.

Torque arms get expensive fast, as do subframe connectors. I'll do SFCs before I buy the arm. SFCs are suppose to make a huge difference, especially on ragtops which are really really flimsy.

 

I'm plannning for SFC after I finish my exhaust, and that is after I finish rear suspension. I am keeping stock front because I have new poly bushings and ends up there, but the rear are stock and flimsy. I'll probably throw in a torque arm somewhere.

I do recommend the Wonder Bar from Spohn. But since yours is a Z28, you probably already have one. I'll let you know how the sway bars affect the cornering when I install. Here is a picture of the Wonder Bar, for reference.

 

pic

 

okay, this one?

 

Yeah, I've got a stock wonderbar, but it's not as sturdy looking as your red one. I probably should get one more like yours, and a strut tower brace as well. Geez, it never ends. By then, I'll need new tires.

I didn't put any hi perf stuff on my front end except poly bushings and the Eibach springs, and I was very pleasantly surprised. Oh yeah, and I put on some tricky little billet tie rod adjuster sleeves.

If doing all this rear stuff is as much an improvement, this will be the best handling car I've owned by a longshot.

 

The Spohn wonder bar is like 75 with shipping and I think the TDS is cheaper. The strut bar is about 120-130 anywhere I've looked. These cars handled pretty well out of thebox, but they now have a massive amount of aftermarket mods to help. I plan to use them all, with the possible exclusion of the coil-over kits. Wait, teacher is coming.

 

Correct, an adjustable torque arm will set your pinion angle, and the adjustable LCAs will recenter your wheels after lowering and setting the pinion angle. The car will still drive fine with just a 1 inch drop and stock everything else, but for optimal handling, you want everything just right.

You most likely do not need an aftermarket steering brace (wonderbar) if you already have one. As for the subframe connectors, I would definitely do those first, but bring the car to a shop that will straighten the frame to specs FIRST, and then weld the SFCs on.

You have a pic of the billet tie rod sleeves?

 

Got this pic off the ebay ad. Just like mine, except had mine coated.

 

I know I should do the SFC first, but I wanna have all the exhaust out of the way, first. That and a new Jet chip. To offset the weight my car will be gaining. I will definetaly get the frame straightened first, then wield the SFCs.
Billet tie rod sleeves? What those for?

 

The billet sleeves connect your inner and outer tie rod ends together. The alignment place twists them to adjust the toe in on your front wheels and locks them down with the jam nuts you see in the picture.

Honestly, they probably won't do much more than the stock ones, however they are more rigid and might hold your alignment better under extreme circumstances. They certainly look better and are easier to keep clean if your into keeping your undercarriage all pretty looking.

Stock ones consist of a split steel threaded sleeve with ugly clamps that crimp the sleeve tight once the alignment is set. The split sleeve usually gets packed with dirt and rust and must be replaced whenever you replace tie rod ends.

If you jack with your alignment a lot like the autocross guys do, the billet jobs would be easier to adjust and last longer. Since they're cut from hex stock, you can adjust them with a crescent wrench, where most guys end up using a pipe wrench on the stock ones.

The billet ones on ebay are about $30. New stockers would probably run you about $15-$20. Probably a good deal if you're changing out your front end parts anyway.

By the way, what kind of camera did you use to take the picture of your steering brace? I'm in the market for a camera and that's a really good looking photo.

 

It is a Nikon Coolpix 7600. 7.1 Megapoixel. Go to go, but that is the camera.

 

It is a Nikon Coolpix 7600. 7.1 Megapoixel. Go to go, but that is the camera.

 

Thanks for the camera info. Going to have to get one of those.

 

Got the 1 inch rear Spohn sway bar in last night. Drove it lightly to check for noises. It cornered better and just felt better when turning. I was going to get into it, but I was afraid to after I saw the first two deer, rabbit, cat, opposum..... I'll try it later and let you know how much of difference that it makes. From just normal driving, there is a major difference in the feel of the car. A major difference for the good. Just thought I'd let you know.

 

I finally got the rear spring isolators out, and the car looks lots better.

However.... It seems like I've lost some cornering stability. It feels like the body is rolling a lot more in corners. I wonder if I've exceeded the critical LCA angle, and that's messing with my rear suspension. The car felt much more planted in back with the rear that extra 3/4" higher.

Any ideas?

Who's the best guy to get LCA relocation brackets from?

Thanks in advance.

 

Just throwing out an idea but, could removing the spring isolators have let the springs have some movement in the mounting area. That would account for the looser feeling.

Not real sure about the best LCA brackets, but I always get my stuff from Spohn and have never been disappointed. I plan on getting new tubular LCAs and the brackets when I swap in my new posi 3.23 w/ disks.

 

I suppose it's possible, although I've never heard mention of it before. Lots of guys mention removing the isolators to lower the body a little more...you'd think someone would have mentioned it if it caused problems.

I didn't look at my LCA angle while I had it apart, but I suspect It's getting close to being out of spec.

 

This is my opinion on it and I'm no expert, but I'll try to help. Modifying your suspension is alot like modifying an engine. Parts need to match up for the optimal performance. The main difference in this anology is that the "optimal setup" is objective with suspension since everyone wants their car to feel/react a certain way depending on their style of driving. Example, I might like my car more "loose" in the rear than you would, compliments my style better (just an example). Unlike engine building where a known combo makes a known result, the best way to modify the suspension is by trial and error. Feel how the car reacts with one setup, determine what you want changed, then do the mods to make the change. Do it over and over. Sometimes this can cost alot of $$ if parts need to be swapped out, and that brings me to my next point.

You need to ask yourself, what is your goal? Do you need a fine tuned suspension that will shave a few seconds off your lap time, or do you want better than stock for street driving? You might as well define a goal and determine what needs/wants that will entail and then work towards achieving the goal. Otherwise you may end up spending alot of $$ with no results for your particular application.

To answer the original question in the scenario of a daily driver that you just want to handle better, I would say no, nothing else is needed. Lowering the ride height does change the suspension geometry, and for optimal performance this should be addressed. But in a real world scenario of a daily driven car you want to handle better, the changes in geometry from a 1" drop are minimal and probably would not cause any adverse affects you would feel while driving on the street. I dont see street driving (even spirited street driving) causing much of a need to replace every suspension piece under the car. In my opinion you would want to focus on the springs, dampeners, and bushings, those are the important parts for a street car. Other parts could be used/replaced of course, tubular torque arms and lower control arms, but in all honesty I dont see you getting much in return for that money spent (considering the application of a street car daily driver). Granted everyone drives different and some people take their street driving more serious than others, I'm sure you understand what I'm trying to say.

To answer the original question in the scenario of a track car that you regularly race, then the answer is a definate yes, you will want to look into ways to correct the suspension geometry. Unlike the first scenario, you need the suspension fine tuned and it will take alot of trial and error to get it where you want it. This means you will probably want adjustable suspension pieces, and more than likely, you want all the suspension parts under the car to be replaced with stronger tubular (hopefully lighter) components. Having adjustable parts will allow you to fine tune the suspension through trial and error without having to replace the suspension parts, its a definate plus.

So depending on what you want to do with the car, you'll want to modify it accordingly.

To give my .02 on some other things that came up in the thread: Billet Tie Rod sleeves are a great investment, the stock plastic pieces can flex under load. You can buy a set of Billet Tie Rod sleeves from Coleman Racing for around $22, so if you dont see them on E-bay, do a search here for Coleman Racing and get the part #'s. I run these on all my cars although I admit its overkill for my daily driver street car (that I do drive hard sometimes for fun). Adjustable torque arm will allow you to adjust the pinion angle. Adjustable lower control arms allow you to adjust the thrust angle. Adjustable panhard bar will allow you to center the rearend in relation to the ride height. The rear spring isolators prevent noise, but they also center the load of the spring on the chassis. If you look at the rear isolators hard you'll nice there is a metal ring built into the bushing. With the isolators removed there is a chance the load between the top of the spring and the chassis will be uneven and possibly warp the chassis. This is not something I've had direct experience with, this is what the birds told me so take it for what its worth. I dont chance it on my cars, track use or not. Cutting springs is do-able if you do it the right way and prevent warping of the spring from heat (which causes it to lose its rate), but I still wouldnt recommend it. You can buy specific height and rate springs for fairly cheap these days, you might as well go with a spring that has been measured and verified. Cut springs or used springs can work, but these usually cant be verified or measured by the average enthusiast. I no longer run off-the-shelf springs anymore, only custom springs where I can specify the height and rate. In the end, the cost is around the same and I get exactly what I want (I'm also not happy with the rake of Eibach progressive rate springs like Pro-Kit and Sportline w/ the butt in the air). SFC's and pretty much any chassis strengthening in general should be done first. Consider it a solid base to tune your suspension from. If the points the suspension connects to bends or flexes, then the suspension itself will never be consistent. I expect the average macphearson strut/shock setup to last around 30K miles. These items do wear, and running the car lower than intended does cause the dampeners to wear out faster if they are not intended to be run at that height. The more expensive aftermarket pieces are usually designed to be run at a lower ride height, names like Koni, Bilstien, Tokiko, etc. To control body roll you need to look at the swaybars and the springs. Swaybar bushings are very important, as is (believe it or not) the size of the spacer in the endlink. Stiffer springs reduce bodyroll, but too stiff can cause problems. Depending on how fine tuned you need the suspension, this might be something you want to research. Damn that was alot to type and I dont blame anyone for not wanting to read it since its so long ...

 

How to you properly figure out the size of the spacer in the endlink? For example if you have 1" lowered car.

thanks.

 

The Prothane endlinks sold through Spohn.net and various other outlets are the correct size for a 1"-2" drop.

 

uhhh ok?

spohn only has one size front endlinks and four sizes rear.

im looking for a length measurement size...

 

Hawaiian I dig it when you reply to a post. That is a lot of writing but it was stated well. I do not have that many words that I want to write so I will be brief. I just want to point out part of the reason that you are feeling more roll with the isolators out is that you have lowered the rear roll center. When that is lowered you need a stiffer spring in order to maintain the same feel.

 

can anyone post frame measurements so i can check mine out before i put in my sfc's whats the cost to put a car on a frame machine just to check it out

 

There is only one size endlink for the front and back. The four listings shown for the back on Spohn's site are packages that include the endlinks and sway bar bushings. The only difference between them is the size of the bushings, not the endlinks. The Prothane sleeve length is 1 and 3/4 inches. Stock length is a little over 2".

 

This got real deep real fast, but technical is good. I admit that I'm half gearhead and half poser. I took the isolators out for appearances sake, and was happy with the result.

This is and will continue to be a daily driver, but I can't overemphasize my enthusiasm for driving. I rarely drive the car without pushing it to its cornering limits. Until now, it's cornered fairly neutral and pretty hard, and oversteered slowly and predictably at break-away.

But now the car feels sloppy out back, which I really can't accept.

So what about this...put the isolators back in, and cut half a coil off the rear spring....? This should lower the car a bit AND increase the rate of the spring...right?

I've got pro kit springs, so it's not like the car is in the weeds. When I get back home this weekend, I'll look at the LCA angle. I might be mistaken, but I think this could be my problem. If the angle looks OK, then I'll probably cut the springs and re-install the isolators.

My sway bars are stock, but are the big ones. Everything under the front end has been replaced...poly bushings and such and it's been aligned. The only changes in the rear are springs and poly sway bar bushings. The rest is probably worn, but still felt pretty good until I went down that last 3/4 inch.

So what's a good LCA angle?

Thanks.

Oh yeah...my shocks/struts are new, but are monroe replacements. (shrinking in humiliation)

 

Wow. That was alot. You guys made my head spin. This is a good place for about any question without asking. Just read from top to bottom.



I have a problem, so I will list all my mods: Spohn: panhard, rear 1" sway bar, wonder bar, newish Monroe (I know) shocks/struts.

When I am in a turn and encounter a rough spot, but wheels seem to dance in the direction of the opposite the turn (the outside). Is this a problem with LCAs and bushings?

I also have a bit of understeer in a hard turn. Bigger front sway bar?