i have an 87 t/a with the performance suspension package, but i want better performance (i'd love to out perform my g/f's celica lol) any ideas on anything that'll make it roll a bit less and perform a bit better in the turns?

 

New springs, struts, shocks, poly sway bar bushings, tires, SFC's. A search will provide more info.

JamesC

 

thanks james, i have new tires and new springs in the rear, but i guess new struts and new shocks wouldnt hurt either, are they hard to install?

 

You can easily do the struts/springs on the car. The springs are difficult. You might do a search where they're concerned.

JamesC

 

lowering springs with higher rates/SFC/LCA's/tublar adjustable panhard rod/poly everything and a good set of struts/shocks and u will be in the turns wit the best, her celica wouldnt be able to touch u or a new vette.

lowering springs are easier to install than stock bc the actual spring is shorter. i did sportlines and didnt even need a spring compressor. with KYB struts/shocks and the diff was incredible. i also had the 87 WS6 performance suspension look in my sig. ive taken mercedes AMG's and BMW's without a prob. suspension is the most important bc its the base of everything.

 

well this is my daily driver and i scrape every where already so i kinda dont want to lower it at all...she already sits 4 and a half inches from the ground, actually lower with the dump valve hanging low, is there any other kinds of shocks or struts you'd reccomend? i already replaced the rear springs cuz they were sagging, i jsut put back in the factory ones

 

its sitting that low because the stock springs are shot, some lowering springs with about a 1" drop will probably lift your car. If you are bottoming out on everything, you definatly need springs.

A steering brace and a STB will do wonders for little money as well.

 

what is an stb? i'm kinda new to suspension stuff, i'm trying to work my way around the entire car learning everything i possibly can and this year its going to be the suspension

 

stb= strut tower brace. it connects the strut towers in the engine bay together and reduces strut flex in cornering etc. the wonderbar does the same thing but fromt the bottom where the front sway bar bolts up and reinforces the steering box. helsp with steering response as well.

there are tons of strut/shocks combos out there
u can go KYB gr2's all around for alil better than stock if ur budget is low
i went with kyb gr2's up front and gas-a justs in the rear if u want alil better performance the gas a justs are higher pressure
i would say next step woudl be KYB asjustables or tokio blues
then Koni reds but now ur getting up in price but alil better hangling
next would be blistens which are good for even better hangling but are gona run some good $$
the next step being koni yellows but thats for all out track racing or very spiritied road driving. but even more $$
beyond them are coil overs

i went with KYB gr2 up front and gas a just in the rear and it was a major imporvemtn over stock WS6
and !" lowering springs will raise ur car prob cuz ur fronts are prob shot anyways

 

with the stb, and the wonderbar,i have a couple questions....the stb, does that just bolt up whereever you want it, or does it have to be in a specified place? and the wonderbar, does that take the place of the sway bar or jsut adds onto it?
thanks for all your help
-brian

 

SportLines aren't a good option if you want performance. You should go with the Pro-Kit or order a set to your specs. Take a look at my car domain, it has just about everything mentioned here (just don't get the 25.4mm sway bar). Click my sig pic for my car domain, BTW.

Here is a wonder bar:

 

customblackbird : What about KYB AGX's? I have those they seem to do great. I like them a lot and I picked them up for a little over $300 for the shocks/struts shipped...

 

A piece of advice about shocks: Spend as much as you can afford to spend on them.

 

what woudl be a good wonderbar to get? im looking on hawks and theres a bmr one for 65 and a spohn for 95...the spohn says adjustable but i'm afraid of that adjustable part just being another part that could break...i think i'm going to just aim for the bmr one though
http://hawksthirdgenparts.com/index....S&Category=390

 

my car sits as low as sportlines (2" drop) because my factory springs are so shot, expecting the pro kit to lift me up about 1"

 

Spohn sales either the adjustable or non-adjustable. Do you have single or dual fans?

 

i have two, both electronic, one overheat fan and one regular one that comes on at a preset temp...why, will this help me decide which one i shoudl get?

 

Yup. Don't get the Spohn wonder bar. It doesn't fit with the daul fans but the TDS (Top Down Solutions) does. I don't know about any of the other brans.

 

how about BMR? its on the hawks site?

 

Aftermarket sway bars make a huge difference in body roll. Over the summer I installed a 1 3/8" front with 1" rear. The rear might be a bit big (tends to oversteer just a bit), but it took away practically all of the body roll. I also installed the edelbrock stb which seemed to make a little difference. Tires are also a huge factor. No one single item can make as much of a difference in handling capabilities as tires. No matter how good the rest of your suspension is, if the tires are poor, handling will not improve by much.

 

Find a used factory wonder bar. The aftermarket ones have no advantage over the OEM ones, not even due to being stronger. The stresses is sees, don't really warrant anything stronger anyways. And you can usually get an OEM one for like $30 max, at a junkyard.

 

Since people have discovered the Wonderbar, some have made outlandish claims about how well the bar has improved handling. The Wonderbar, however, wasn't designed as a performance piece but was GM's Bandaid for the weakness in the steering box area for IROC's and 16" wheels. Frankly, I doubt that in a blind test anyone could reliably tell if a car was so equipped or not. Is it a good preventive piece? Yes, regardless of wheel size. Check the JY's. I've purchased several for $5.00 or so.

On a side note, the Global West version of the Wonderbar will accommodate dual fans (as will the OE bar, of course).

JamesC

 

I never took the used ones into consideration....there are hardly any ThirdGens around that haven't been crushed or are still on the road. That's why I can't find another rear sway bar.
I have the 1" rear bar as well, and I think it's too much bar unless you've lowered the PHB.

 

dennisbernal91z... the KYB AGX's i was originally looking into before i went wit the grr's/gasajusts, they seem to be a good peice the probs i found where that they werent as adjustable as ppl would have liked them. ppl found that they where too stiff like a dump truck and when they tried to soften them they became too soft lik old OEM's.if i do it again i will prob go with tokio blues. since i dont want too stiff since its a daily driver and its already like its on rails. i figured that if i stuck them on i would prob never adjust them and when it comes to struts/shocks its better to get the best or what ur budget would allow. your shocks/struts all depend on ur driving habits, i wouldnt recomend certain struts/shocks for daily drivers like koni yellows etc bc those are more intended for track racing/auto cross. not to say that if u stuck them on your daily driver that u couldnt drive with them. thats like having a 2000hp motor... when the hell are u gona use that on a daily driver on the street.

i have the TDS wonderbar with dual electric fans and it fit great. the adjustable wonderbar is for pre-loading the chassis which would be used for track racing/drag racing not really needed for street driven cars or daily dirvers. whether it be a stock stamped or tubular aftermarket...either would be an improvment vs one with out. both affectivly tie both subframes together just the wonderbar does it underneith while increasin steering box strength and does the same thing as the STB except with out the steering box strength. when i installed the wonderbar and poly endlinks/poly sway bar bushings i def felt increased front end response as well as steering in the corners was increased but thats just me.

as far as the sportlines/prokit is concerned.... the sportlines are a more drastic drop for that raked look and the increased drop and lower center of gravity will slightly improve cornering vs the prokit. as far as spring rates the sportlines/prokits are almost identical except the rear springs are slightly stiffer with the prokit. the one thing that most hate about the prokit and the main reason that i got the sportlines is the fact that stock 3rd gens have a slight *** dragging stance where the fronts seem to sit higher than the rear and anyone who loves the muscle car look always wants the aggressive rake stance where the front sits lower than the rear making the car look like its leaning forward. the prokit will not get rid of this *** draggin stance since it lowers the car equally front and rear 1" the sportlines offer a 1.75" front drop and 1.3" rear drop which gives that car the desired stance it shoulda gotten from the factory. again its all on taste and stance. but if anyone wants maximum performance i would suggest coilovers or custom springs. most get double the spring rates in the rear and cut the coils to length, since no kit is advaible for max performance for our cars. but if u want improved performance without the guess work i would get the kits.

 

The KONIs make great shocks for a daily driver. Ask anyone that actually has them. They are too stiff if set them stiff but on the lower settings, they are fine and alot better than other adjustables for less. I know of people running 1000 lbs front springs with KONIs. That's alot more than you'll ever need or want on the street, but I like having the capability. Plus, when/if you go to the track, you'll know that you have some of the best shocks you can get on your car and not spend into the thousands.

The Pro Kit front springs are around 100 lbs stiffer than the Sportlines... and with the lowering that the Sportlines give, you'll be riding on your bump stops (Eibach tells you this if you read their literature, they admit to designing the springs to use the bump stops as a suplemental spring rate)a lot more than you should...cause you should never be riding on your bumpstops. That gives you something call 'snap over/under-steer depending on which end hits first. And that's not good. If you are worried about the front setting higher, you can get a set of Moog IROCs and cut them to suite yourself...or get some weight jacks and some springs that are stiff enough for the ride height and adjust them as you want.

 

do u kno the spring rates for the prokit and sportlines cuz i got the numbers from ebach and they arent 100lb diff for the front the rears are about 60lb diff if that. the front sportlines i thought where actually 5lbs more with spring rate. i did a thread on it a few months back prob like january. and i have the sportlines and have yet to ride on the bumpstops yet and i drive in jersey. aka potholes that eat hondas. that is true that they use the bumpstops tho but ur suppose to trim them so u dont hit em...(as much i guess) dont get me wrong konis are great shocks but i dont see the point in paying for 600$ and more for shocks when u wont use them unless u go to the track or drive like mario andredy(spelt wrong) on the streets. your prob talking bout the KONI REDS... which are a good shock and cheaper than the yellows. but still looking at 400$ or more for a set...

 

here are the spring rates from my older post. idk where u got a 100lb diff. in the front spring. and its only a 40lb diff in the rear. the point of the sportlines is for lowest ride possible and they are enginneered to use the bumpstops for that type of ride in the corners they are like a formula one but on the highway bc they are progressive they are smooth.

"i have the spring rates on the sportlines and prokits.... and NO THE WS6 springs are def softer than the prokits/sportlines. i havent seen many kits even come close to the ebach spring rates. stock springs arent even progressive...stock WS6 springs in the 4th gens run max 250-360lbs front and 130-170lbs rear!!! so idk about 3rd gens"

"Pro Kit: 714 lb/in linear front 1 inch lower front
109/177 lb/in progressive rear 1 inch lower rear

Sportline: 700 lb/in linear front 1.6 inch lower front
80/137 lb/in progressive rear 1.3 inch lower rear

 

No, I am talking about the KONI yellows...which I have. KONIs see sig. And if you are going to build a car for handling, why not build it with the best parts you can afford? It would be similar to building a motor to run on the bottle, and using stock pistons because the good ones are $500

The 4th gens use softer springs because the while front suspension design is different than the third gens. It's like comparing apples to oranges; but I'm sure you knew that. And no F-Body handles like a F1 car.

It looks like I was wrong about the spring rate. But the fact remains that the sportlines are much lower than they need to be at that spring rate. And even if you don't hit them (have you looked at the place where they contact the a-arm in the front and the undercarriage in the back...see any dirt/rust?), Eibach says they are designed to use them which is a bad thing in any situation. When you hit them, the spring rates of the springs is increased by the 'spring rate' of the bump stop....which, I can assure, is a lot more than the springs themselves. I'm aware that they aren't springs, but the definition of a spring rate in lb/in is the number of lbs of pressure it takes to compress the given material (bump stops, springs) 1 inch. That's what causes the snap over/under-steer. Imagine you have progressive springs that start at 600 lb/in and then jump to 2000. Can you see that being good?

 

no i totally understand what your saying, KONI's are the best hands down lol im not argueing but i didnt think he was building an all out handler. he just wants to beat his gf's celica. the thing is that its up to him bc of his budget, he states better performnace... not best performance possible. yea and i kno about how the 4th gens have a diff suspension setup but it was the only rates i could find at the time.

yea i acutally markets the top of the bump stops with a special yellow pen so when it hit it would leave a mark bc of what i read on the sportlines. the mark hasnt been touched. and using the bumpstops wouldnt be good thats for darn sure. all i said is that a kit would take away the guesswork for "better performance" but "best peformance" would be a custom setup with high rate springs/the best shocks/struts or a decent set of coil overs. the sportlines/prokits will still deliver alot better performance than the WS6 package and i believe thats what hes looking for... not going all out on his suspension... he also has a gf... so hes limited on money cuz gf's are expensive! lol

i actually have an article on a 3rd gen camaro with suspension upgrades of a SPRING KIT, like ebach/hotkins etc with just suspension upgrades and fatter tires and it outperformed PORCHES, the new VETTES, MAZZARATTI, AND A FRIGIN FERRARRI!!!! in skidpad, salom etc

so dont tell me these cars cant handle like formula ones. if u can outhandle all these highdollar sportcars then theres really nothing left besides all out race cars.

 

Yeah....Wives are cheaper. No more spending $$$ on dates...you get to combine her income with yours....and the "side benefits" are a great bonus!

 

I'm gonna drop this arguement about the SportLines because I'm not making any head room and you've not done much in technical research into spring rates vs. ride height.

But, for future reference, this is a Formula 1 car:

That is 200+MPH car that weights a minimum of roughly 1300lbs and generates more down-force than the car weighs. They also can hold over 4 lateral Gs in a turn. Our cars (along with all street cars) max out around 1.10 lateral Gs. (4-1.10 = the street car is gonna fly off the face of the Earth while the F1 is hammering down) If you still think that any F-Body or street car can handle like a Formula 1 car, you, my friend, need to examine that space between your ears

 

Best to just leave comparisons to real race cars out of it. Our cars, while they can made to handle, are really just big old trucks compared to almost any formula car. At 100 mph an F1 car generates enough downforce to drive upside down assuming that we could find a place for it to do that.

From what I've read the car will handle better with a Prokit. Also, you have to have some rake in the chassis and the Prokit maintains the factory rake.

 

haha wow i cant believe u took that seriously... haha lets be serious here no car is a formula 1.... i stated that as a comparison to how well a car can handle. kinda like the SAT's in the verbal section like, eagle is to... bird as 3rd gen is to...BLANK. i also kno that formula ones have NO suspenion and that all suspension is actually the tires since the only bouncing/suspension travel that occurs is the tires squishing. so u could say that the whole saying a 3rd gen IS "LIKE"or can handle "LIKE" a formula one is totally benine to actually think u could even take that seriously. but for a car that can outhandle (when built correctly) a ferrarri/mazzaratti/corvette etc yadda yadda doesnt really leave more to compare it to now does it? except for the mini cooper... did u know that handles like a formula one too? guys need to lighten up alil and have a coke and a smile.

from what ive heard from ppl who have installed the prokit there has been no correction of the slight butt dragging. including CHP they actually had to cut a coil off the front when installed bc they didnt get a raked look.

now back to topic
racerrx520... there are suspension upgrades that can def make your car handle better than ur gf's celica you would have to think it through on what u want eactly. but it would depend on your budget and your style of driving. or u could just buy a mini cooper lol

 

wow, i didnt mean to start such a heated argument lol but no, i cannot afford a formula one car (aka mini cooper) as of right now...i am 20 yrs old, in college, and am working part time for 8 dollars an hour...after looking closely at the steering braces, i think i may actually be able to build one myself...im not sure if tehre is soem sort of secret to the wonderbar or if it is indeed just as it looks, a piece of flat stock with 2 holes drilled in it, and a piece of pipe welded to it...it looks simple enough, again i'm not sure if there is some sort of secret to it or some sort of exact dimension...so i'll either build one ina couple weeks (i have paint issues to deal with as of right now and then headers to deal with) or i'll buy one

hey i might even find a mini cooper forum and see what those F1 cars are using....

 

You trouble maker you!

If you can weld, or a friend will for free, then yeah, make your own. They are as simple as they look!

The only issue MIGHT be fan clearance, but that is simple to deal with, during fabrication.

 

nice, yeah, i can weld, my brother fixes big machines (whether it be overhauling the engine of a CAT bulldozer or welding a tooth back on an excavator) and my dad works at a place that specializes in converting cars to run on propane and natural gas, so they have taught me pretty well lol and also seeing as how he works there, i can probably get all the metal for free! thank you for letting me know about the wonderbar...but i may be back in about 2 weeks to ask the dimensions of it if i wind up getting really confused which i tend to do often haha

 

Use the sway bar bolts, as them a bolt hole pattern. Make the "feet", mount them under the sway bar, cut your tube to length, tack it to the feet, pull it off, finish weld, reinforce the tube mounts if needed, as your done!

Write it all down/make patterns, so you can fab another one, if needed/wanted...to sell to friends, etc.

 

lol i went through all that and now ur just gona make one! augh lol
u could make one but for 60$ u get a direct bolt in thats not gona have any messups and u get a nice shinny powdercoat hmmmm
the wonderbar i bought bc u cant really beat the price and it sure beats taking the measurements etc and when u buy them u got laser cut holes etc. i wouldnt buy the STB since i would def make my own i cant see paying 160$ or more for that. if i could make it i do usually i made my LCAs and panhard rod(before i bought adjustable panhard rod from UMI) and i also made my own Subframes. i had the dimensions for that suff but idk where it is now if u wanted to make that too.

good luck

 

There's also the pride of "I built the STB & Wonder Bar myself for $50 (or less)."
vs "I spent $210 (or more) on the STB & Wonder Bar." And spending $$$ elsewhere.