sent him an email..hope to hear from him soon..probably gonna keep automatic...manual is more work plus i havent driven manual in a long time...wasnt to good at it when i did. you said before about the LS1...what trans's are part of the LS family..is the 4L60E one of them? Electronic shift control meaning what...how does that work? you talking about the trans right? . how do you know that they are of the LS1 style? i have no idea what your talkin about..sorry..explain. im gonna call spohn either thursday or friday and find out what i can..ill let you know what they say.

 

I never meant you were leaving him hanging, I was just telling him not to worry if we do decide he is a lost cause...

Your not a lost cause BTW.

Now I'm not sure since I haven't looked into it either, but I think the electronic shift control is where you can just hit the shifter ahead and it shifts up and pull it back a little and it shifts down. Just don't quote me on this...

No, it is the LSx engines that get the great power, and good mileage. The power and mileage doesn't come from the tranny (though the tranny does help with mileage).

The LS1 brakes are 2 piston aluminum calipers with a 12" rotor... don't confuse them for the LT1 brakes which are the same except for an 11" rotor.

 

The electronic shift control is when you can adjust the shift points in the computer. The computer tells the transmission exactly where and how (shift speed, firmness, etc) to shift as opposed to the old throttle vavle system on the 700R4. Much more reliable and precise. There are actually two designs of the 4L60E- one for the older small block Chevies (what the cars came with) and the 4L60Es that came on the 98+ cars (LS1s have have different bolt pattern on the back of the block.

The LS family of engines have different engine mount points than the small blocks that came in these cars, so you have to get aftermarket motor mounts. The wiring is alot more complicated, and you have to either buy an aftermarket harness or splice yours into the LS1 harness to get the engine to work. There are many odds and ends involved in the swap. This thread will help you alot if you want to take the time to read it. The power and mileage comes from the design of the heads, intake, and cam that these engines come with.

The difference in the rear brakes is the caliper design, rotor size, and placement of caliper. The LT1 rear are 11.6" while the LS1 are ~11.9 The LT1 calipers mount like this on the back of the rotor (towards the back of the car)

LS1 rear

Difference in appearance of caliper:
LT1

LS1

The LT1 name is missleading, as the designs from the 89-97 are interchangable. It first appeared on 3rd gen cars.
The LS1 front brakes are, like he said, 2 piston aluminum calipers on a 12" rotor. The LT1 fronts are a 1 piston iron (I think) on 11" rotors.

The 4th generation F-Bodies came with a rear end that that is 1.5-2 inches (depending on year) longer on both ends (3-4" total) that the 3rd gen rears. The 4th gens also came with stock 17x9.5 wheels on some models. The cheapest wheels in this size to be found and known to fit are ussually for 4th gens. You'll need 2 inch spacers to fit these wheels to your car. If you buy a rear end that's made for the 4th gens, you'll have the extra length already and won't need the rear spacers. But, running stock 3rd gen rear wheels with a 4th gen rear will cause the rear wheels to be spaced out further than stock-

 

just curious..how much power would you get from the stock LS1 motor? as far as getting the LS1, im not saying that it couldnt be an option but i think i might stick with building the 383. let me say this, one its probably way too complicated for me...when i said i was i newbie i wasnt kidding..i have basically no knowledge except what ive learned from you guys in the forums. so plain and simple, im still too dumb right now to do something like that(not saying im stupid...just lack of knowledge)...at least with building the 383 it doesnt involve too much electrical work and its more of a basic setup. this being my first build i want a good combination of parts but something a little more simple to put together. thats why when looking at parts i look for stuff where i wont have to modify the car...something to buy,bolt it up and im good...maybe when i aquire more experience and i start to understand what works and what doesnt one day ill be able to take the charger and make it a beast(the camaro though i love it so is basically my palette so i can learn). doin the LS1 would be a little easier if (1) i had friends that where into cars and knew their stuff and (2) i had someone in my area that wouldnt mind comming over, drinking a few beers, and helping/teaching me stuff along the way...but i dont. now with that outta the way, back to the topic a hand. so do you suggest i get a 4L60E when i build the 383? how much work is involved in adapting the 4L60E to the car? or would it basically bolt right in like the 700r4 with the exception of a few different parts? alright let me try to get this and ask a few questions about your last statement. you say 4th gens also came with stock 17x9.5 wheels on some models...so whats the stock wheel for the third gen..16x8? so if i ended up getting the 9" rear for the third gen and i wanted to run 17's i would have to get spacers.and you say if i got the 4th gen rear and i wanted to run stock 3rd gen wheels they'd be spaced out further...Hows that work? So with them being spaced out further is that a bad thing? one other thing.. lets say i ended up goin with a 9" for the 4th gen..how complicated is it to install it on my car(dont know if it applies but would i have to do any welding..cause i cant weld)...this build is getting technical, i didnt think so much was involved...when i look back and think that this all started becasue of probably a few minor fixes and a simple oil leak between the oil pan gasket and the timing cover it makes me laugh...i had no intentions of going this far, it was supposed to be just another stock camaro...but here i am, knee deep. thats alright though, i wont give up. might take me longer than i want, but hopefully ill get it done...oh yeah..and no reply from ed yet...later.

 

The LS1s come stock with ~340 crank horsepower. With boltons (that's headers, cold air intake, etc) you can get that to ~370-380. With a cam, you can see another 20-40. Heads are another 15-35 over that. You can net an engine that'll net you~ 400 to the wheels and still be ok on gas and very drivable.

The 4L60E will bolt in, but to get the advantage of the computer controll, you'll need some sort of computer. I don't know if they make a stand-alone control unit for them or not. They are usually controlled by the same computer that controls the car, but since you'll be running a carb, that's not an option. You'll have to look into that in the Drivetrain thread. I've always planned to run a manual trans so I don't know much about it with a carbed car.

Stock wheels sizes for 3rd gens were 15x7s and 16x8s. 4th gen was 16x8 and 17x9.5. The back spacing is different in between the generations. (There's a thread that involves backspacing/offset at the top of this forum. Read that for more understanding) That's why there is the fitment issue. 17x9.5 wheels that will fit a 3rd gen without spacers are available, but they are ussually hard to find and more expensive than 4th gen made wheels. The 4th gen and 3rd gen rears are completely interchangable without any modifications. The only difference is the overall length.

Ed is a very busy man and sometimes replies take some time. But, he is great to deal with and has a quality product.

 

so i got around to calling spohn..and heres an update on what was said...the guy i spoke with basically said the same stuff you suggested with a few different changes. said i should go with the 9" for the 4th gen, the rear brakes would be Wilwood Dynalite Pro Series (http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...Brake-Kit.html) and i could run 17x10 275 wheels(also suggested i run the same size wheels). 2 things that he said other than what you suggested is..(1) go with Koni's..but not yellows, go with reds. and the sway bars, well he said go with 34/25. he commented that a lot of guys like running the 36/24 combo like some of you guys have, but he said something along the lines of...because of the material that their bars are made of their 34/25 bar combo will give me the same outcome as others brands 36/24 sway bars...dont know if thats true,its what he said..thats all the info i got from them, was on my lunch brake so i didnt have too much time.

 

So, he told you to spend another ~$1000? lol. Well, you'd save some on the KONIs. The Reds probably would be a better choice for you. Same warranty and quality as the Yellows, but less expensive and less agressive valving - which is ok for you, because you've said you aren't building a corner carver.

Those rear brakes are nice, but I've always been under the impression that with 4 piston rears, you need at least 6 piston fronts to keep from having more braking bias on the rear. You want the majority of your braking for on the front or the rear will lock up due to less weight and you'll quickly have your rear end in front of you. But, if you go with the WilWood kit from Ed, you should be fine. I'd discuss it with Ed to be sure.

As for the sway bars, what he said might be true, but you'd be paying more money for heavier parts to do the same job as the GM parts would. In addition, I've heard there are fitment issues with the Spohn front bars.
Not bashing Spohns parts or opinions (I have several of their parts on my car), just stating what I've found out in the past few years.

 

how do you figure? no reply from Ed yet...whats the best site to look at to get the GM sway bars? (cash wise)... well im gonna go work on the car...be back later.

 

Those rear brakes and the Spohn sway bar set = ~$1000.
The best places to get the sway bars is to search the classifieds on here, look on Hawksthirdgenparts.com, eBay and to search the junk yards around you.

 

Like I have already said... I have a 36mm hollow front bar for sale. It is painted and everything, all you need are bushings/endlinks. Depending on the size of the rear bar you want, I might have one of those for you as well.

If your worried about it not being what Spohn recommended, according to what you wrote the Spohn Tech guy said their front 34 was about the same as the GM 36... so why not save money and get a stock 36 bar...

 

racing geek...i appreciate you wanting to save me some money, cause i do want to save a little cash...the thing is..and dont be offended by what im about to say...but i wanna save money on new parts...by that i mean...if spohn sells the bars for(just an example) $200 and another site sells them for $180, then i will buy from the other site...so i save some money,but its new. your bars maybe be old or new...but im just picky about that stuff..but hey man...i do appreciate the offer. ill definitely check check out Hawksthirdgenparts.com and maybe eBay. what exactly are the stock size bars...36/24?

 

I'm not offended at all. I just wanted to make sure you knew there was another option rather then finding out later that you could have saved a bunch of cash.

stock sizes for the...
front: 30mm, 32mm, 34mm, 36mm (all hollow)
rear: 19mm, 21mm, 23mm, 24mm (all solid), 1"/25.4mm (this is only good for drag racing)

The numbers above/below one another came as a set from the factory. I also made the most popular choices bold.

There was also a stock 35mm solid front bar but that was only put on factory race cars... so if you find one of them you a very lucky man considering only about 50 of those bars ever existed.

Mike

I forgot to add that I use the 36/24 set, but I am thinking of swapping out the rear bar for a 21 because I have to much oversteer. But I'll wait a little because there are still some other suspension parts I want to get on my car.

 

just gonna ask one question then im turning in, so ill check your replies later...racing geek...or anyone else that wants to chime in. what top 5 sites would you recommend when you go looking for parts...one other thing...i still got all the parts i took of the camaro...figured that they might come in handy...so if i could use some parts to save money..i might do that...but ill look through them after i get a solid list of everything that im gonna do. thanks. oh and my names ROB by the way..if you dont know.

 

There's probably not anywhere to find new GM bars. You might be able to get them from GM or something. It's hard to reccomend other sites for Spohn stuff. They ussually don't allow anyone to under-sale them. What you're looking for will determine where you need to go.

 

are there any bars that are as close to GM as possible that i could look at? havent heard from ED either...i though he would have responded by now.

 

The whole purpose of the GM bars isn't that they are GM or made a certain way, but that they are easy to find and cheap. If you have a phobia of used parts (although you can have them cleaned up and powdercoated and they'll look as good as any aftermarket) then just buy Spohn or some of the other manufacturers.

 

I had a phobia of used parts, then my wallet and desire to go fast started to collide... my wallet lost that battle, and it's a good thing. Now I got more $ for other parts.

I'd say the top 5 companies are (in no particular order) UMI, Spohn, Hotpart, BMR, and Competition Engineering. Then again this only applies to the suspension aspect of this build. Engine, brakes, and drivetrain are completely different.

I also sent a mesage to ED about my future brake upgrade (I have my mind set on the C4 HD since it is only $100 more then LS1 and still fits in 16" wheels.). He usually takes a week or two to respond. You just have to be patient, and from what I hear, it is well worth it.

 

its not that i have a Phobia...its just when i think used part the first thing that comes to mind is that its got some miles on it and you never know how long its gonna last. same could be said of new parts..theres really no guarantee...but when i think new then i tend not to think about whether its gonna last...the second thing is i dont know of any places around my area that could powder coat. i gotcha...most if not all of my parts for the engine are coming from Summit. one other thing i curious about..lets say for example..i wanna run wider tires on the back and thinner tires on the front while basically keeping the same height...how would that work.. if i got 275 45 R17's on the back then id run 245 50 R17's on the front...is that how it works or is that wrong?

 

Good thing about sway bars is they don't wear out...unless you break them lol.
The correct size is 275/40R17s. But if you wanted to run the different sizes, it would be 245/45R17s front 275/40R17s rear. Never understood why people want to do that though. Less traction in the front and you can't rotate.

 

i work at my cousins CNC shop so i guess i could get a GM bar and ask if he knows someone that could powdercoat it for me. i was just picking numbers for an example. i guess its more for looks..you make a good point about losing traction...but how much would you actually lose? it being a rear wheel drive car wouldnt most of the traction be in the back?

 

heres something else...since i still have all the parts i took off the car i pulled out the say bar and here are 2 pics... http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/k...t=100_1227.jpg i dont have anything to measure it with in mm's so i checked with cm's and it is 11cm..so thats what..36mm..right? and i take that its a hollow bar considering the holes on the side...the thing is i dont know what brand it is...dont know if you can tell but the sticker says DDH 14094339 product of Canada...and its got a stamp in the middle which says X381..dont know what that means..maybe one of you guys can figure it out.

 

I meant traction in turning. Most of the force is on the front wheels. I've never really liked the staggered look unless it's on a 1st gen era car or came that way (like the C5 and up Vettes).


Where did you measure the bar. You are supposed to measure them were the body bushings attach. It's probably a stock bar. They were numbered and stamped like that if I'm correct.

 

look at this pic... http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/k...0_1226rev1.jpg u talkin about point a or b. when i measure point A from side to side with my caliper i get 1.3" and top to bottom i get slightly less than 1.4"

 

1.3" = 33mm (that can't be...)
1.4" = 35.56mm (better but I don't think you measured in the right spot...)

Try using a large metric wrench... either a 32mm or 34mm.

 

I thought that's where you were supposed to measure. Would be at point A. Like Geek (haha, I wen't there) just get some metric wrenches and see what's closest.

 

then where exactly do i measure? i dont have wrenches that big..i have an adjustable and i could use the caliper to set the right size.

 

basically anywhere i measure i get 10.8 to 11 cm's except when i get closer to the endlinks then the bar starts to tapper down. im using an online calculator and 10.8/11 cm's is 108/110 mm's...but if i divide them by three i get 36/36.6... so i guess its a 36.(dont know if thats the right way to calculate it...math wasnt my strongest subject.)

 

Point "A" is supposed to be where you measure. I get that a lot... doesn't bother me anymore. Heck, even some of my friends call me "Racing Geek" in autos class.

You could also try measuring in the middle of the bar (that's the long straight part I'm talking about). Since youi don't have huge metric wrenches, use your adjustable. Tighten your adjustable on spot "A" (make sure your in the middle and not on the edge of spot"A") then use your caliper and tell us how big it is.

If that really is 10.8cm-11cm that your reading, I'm wondering if it really is a swaybar that your measuring.

Just to give you an idea... 10.8cm = 4.25"
That is even big for a driveshaft let alone a swaybar...

I don't understand why you would have to divide it by 3.

-------------------------------------
Edit:
You could also go to Harbor Freight and get a digital caliper. The one I got from then can be found here, not a bad price either.

 

no..i was measuring the whole diameter..and then dividing it by Pi=3.14(but i was using 3.) it came out to 34mm so im not gonna use it...maybe ill toss it or sell it.

 

Ok, that makes sense. Try and sell to make some money.

 

Don't trash it, keep it. Like I said, sway bars are very handling tuning tools if you get into optimizing the handling later on.

I didn't mean it as an insult, I was just messing with you RG.

 

let me ask you guys this...as far as all the parts that make up the suspension...are there any other parts that you would suggest i look into keeping...cause i think the springs i took off are hotchkins and the shocks are KYB..and if i recall correctly the guy i bought the car from said he installed them himself not too long ago. so i was thinking that parts that im not gonna use that are in descent condition i could get rid of and make some money...i could probably get rid of the crossmember n probably the rear end..anything else? and i didnt mean toss in the garbage..i meant toss aside somewhere.

 

I know.

I don't know, I like to keep everything if it isn't trashed... you never know when that PHB or LCA or other part will come in handy. What if you hit a curb and bend the LCA, then you have a stock one to swap in so you can keep driving while you wait for a new one to arrive.

Why not reuse the springs if you know they are new? I would still get rid of the shocks but I would try and re-sell those since they are supposedly new.

Honestly you can't really get much for stock suspension parts since the aftermarket stuff is relatively cheap.

 

Yep 275/40/17's all the way arround. I have .5" clearance between the tire and coil. The car has all spohn suspension on it the k member coil over kit, poly/rod lca's phb, rod ended torque arm, koni red's, blah blah blah. The only mod I had to do to fit the bigger tires up front is where ASC welded their sfc to the pinch weld on the front end of the sfc. I had to chop that off to allow me to have some clearance while turning. Other than that, no problems.

 

Wow... love the color combination on that car. Thanks for clearing up the clearance issue. What size spacers you have?

 

2" but whenever I get arround to do the LS1 brake swap it will be getting 1.75" spacers Thanks!

 

all spohn..what sway bar combo you got? What you running as far as horsepower? you get the rear end from Spohn too or is it stock? elaborate on that...what do all the abbreviations stand for? yeah nice car..you paint it yourself?

 

WS6 36/24 the rear is out of a 4th gen with 3.42s. HP "should" be arround 500 at the crank. I need to get it on a dyno one day so I can finish tuning it.

ASC is the company that did the convertable conversions for the thirdgens. They added their own sub frame connectors to stiffen up the chassis when they chopped the top off. Its a vert only addition. So thats why I had to do that. You wont have that problem.

Yep painted the car in a driveway on four jack stands with a bit of help.

 

hey Kat..dont know if you read through the whole thread but you got any ideas/input/suggestions to add...maybe what you think i should consider doin? one question..you say that you have around 500 at the crank..then how would figure what you have at the wheels..which is more important?(at crank or at wheels?)sorry kinda off topic. you also said 275/40/17's... so is that the biggest i could run? so thats only for the convertables...cause i have T-Tops.

 

With a manual you can usually estimate 15% loss and with an auto it's roughly 20%. So, with an manual you'd have something like 425 to the wheels and with an auto you'd have ~400.

 

hows everyone doin...happy new year...sorry..havent been online...was on vacation...hey...i was wondering...91_5.7_TPI..when you send Ed an email...how long before he usually replies...cause i still havent heard back...and its been quite a while. i gotta go back and refresh my memory... will read through the thread again and continue where i left off...later.

 

I have already chatted with him several times since I last said I was waiting for his response. It turns out he will sell parts of the brake swap and not just the whole thing. This is a good thing for me since I can modify the spindles myself.

A good thing is that I found out I was accepted to MSOE (Milwaukee School of Engineering), the bad thing is that they want $24,000 per year. I'm thinking it's time to stop spending money on my car...

 

It's best to send him a PM on here. Seems to be faster.
Not time to stop spending, just time to start spending less.

 

what is his PM/ name he is registered under? maybe ill try that? racing geek.... congratulations on your recent news... hope it works out.

 

It's ebmiller88. Pretty sure, at least.

 

Yep, that's me. Good read!

Here's what I did to my car with notes and the parts I used. No coilovers or anything, just good quality parts. The only thing I would have changed is that I would have replaced or rebuilt my OEM stock Bilsteins with new ones, I went with KYB instead but the ride is perfect:

http://s91.photobucket.com/albums/k3...aro%20Rebuild/

You have a lot of good suggestions but keep in mind the purpose of the car, if you aren't dragging it regularly will the tubular stuff serve a purpose? Again, just put the money on good parts. Trust Moog/TRW, etc. If you lower the car remember to install LCA relocation brackets on whatever rearend you run. Stock GM 36/24mm bars are great and can be found cheaper nowadays. I'll recommend Eibachs, Bilsteins, Moog joints, Energy Suspension bushings, and the other parts I used for a great handling stock style suspension. I think I had $2K in my rebuild which included all new GM 1LE front brakes.

Brakes will also be purpose driven and will be largely based on the size of wheels you want to run. Generally speaking, run the largest diameter rotor you can get in the wheels. Stock 16" wheels can hold up to a 13" rotor with ease and go up from there. I'll reply via PM shortly.

Ed

 

explain? unless im racing its not worth the money, even if in the future i decide i do wanna drag it...wouldnt it be better to have it setup that way for now so later all i would have to do is minor changes? hows that work.. better stoping power? or is there something more than that?

 

It would be nice to get adjustable stuff this way as your plans change for the car, just turn a wrench and you are ready to go again. Plus it isn't much more cash if you just get single adjustable stuff.

A larger rotor means the caliper is further from the hub (middle of wheel). the greater distance between the hub and the caliper means the caliper has more leverage. More leverage allows you to stop quicker. Just like a larger caliper provides more surface area, and more surface area allows for more clamping force, and the increased clamping force allows for quicker deceleration.

 

Took the words right out of my mouth.

 

what exactly where you thinking...what type of adjustable stuff? two other questions... if i ended lowering the car...hence i would need to have LCA relocation brackets...and later on i decided i dont want it low anymore...and i got regular height springs...would they just go in without a problem or since the brackets are installed i'd have to keep it low? (hope you follow what im asking). and if i was to go with what you guys suggested...17" wheels...whats the best sized rotor that i should look at to go with?