IROCK ZZ

I have a 86 Iroc that sits very low to the ground. I had it up on the rack yesterday and realized something most people dont think about when lowering a car. Limiting straps! Most of the time these are used on 4wheelers so they dont over extend expensive shocks on thier rig. Well with my camaro lifted by the frame, the rear axle drops so far the the rear springs practically fall out! While its not often, on occasion havin to back out of a steep driveway at an angle I lift a rear wheel, never thought anything of it untill I realized what happens to the springs!

Anyone have any ideas or thoughts on installing limiting straps to a lowered thirdgen?

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Common even with OE rear springs.

JamesC

IROCK ZZ

With OE rear springs and stock height you should be fine. However us with shorter springs, may eventually have some trouble or worse, damage!

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Never heard anyone voice concern over the issue. Hearing what members may say will be interesting.

JamesC

84 z28

Dosent sound like it would ever happen. Your torque arm would have to be broke and your shocks dont give you that much travel for the springs to come out. For the past 12 years my car sits on jack stands for the winter and the suspension hangs. Nothing has ever happened.

1988-305-tbi

yes the shorter springs can and do come loose, when i had the prokit installed often i would find that one side of the rear would sit inches higher than the other, becuase the springs fall down when the axle is lowered/ going over bumps and steep driveways, and unless you guide them back into place as the weight goes back onto the spring they can and will come out of the pockets, actually had a spring once that fell out of the top perch and stated to slide free at an angle, when i found it the bottom pigtail part of the spring was being held onto the spring cup on the axle by less than 1/16" a good bump and i would have lost that spring while driving

Guest

Mine would just about fall out on ther own when I jacked up the car. I would have to make sure I had them aligned when I dropped the carback on all fours. Rear fender lips from ground to center lip arch was 26" in the rear, 24 3/4" in front.

Very common- Not a worry. You are not rare. Just like any racecar jacked up, you pretty much ALWAYS have to seat the springs- This is VERY COMMON for race cars especially with any car on a coilover also. Coilovers unseat and can be droipped back down out of position causing unwanted chassis x-weight, same with pigtails.

As for the spring falling out when loaded? Not a chance unless you failed to seat it properly after jacking up the car. You would have to get so much hang time airbourne it is rediculous. You would bend your chassis in half trying to get enough air to unseat a rear spring.

No need for limit straps. Just be assertive and seat them properly each time you jack the car.

Dean

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

I have yet to get under & measure the length I need, but I know with the weight jacks, I need them now, certainly on the rear.

Hell......The rear WS6 springs came out, with everything still bolted up, just with the axle at full droop. Slight pressure & pull & they came out. Took two of us to set the car back down. 1 under holding the springs in alignment, 1 to lower the jack.

IROCK ZZ

there is nowhere i can find to mount the straps to without ripping the body up so far

Guest

if you insist on a limiter strap, then just simply put it on the shock bolts. Slip the top one on first and then the gromments. the bottom one just goes on the bottom shock bolt.

IROCK ZZ

really, why didnt i think of that! what else would somebody suggest for this?

RED_DRAGON_85

listen to dean


honestly, its not a big deal though, and unless you are doing evil knievel type jumps, you will be just fine

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

sometimes i put on my one peice leather american flag outfit when i pull out the driveway

1988-305-tbi

what if you are taking a inclined driveway at an angle to avoid dragging the nose, the outside rear spring can become un seated, my outside rear tire doesn't even touch the ground, on steep drive ways. with the rear suspension at full droop droop there is 6-8" of space between the spring/ chasis i run 9" springs/ no isolaters

The driveway leading into my work is inclined and steep, so i notice this every day, and if i take it at an angle, 1/2 way over the incline i can get out of the car and move the outside spring up and down about 1" you do not need to be air borne to have the spring become loose or unseated, my springs unseat themselves all the time. i'll go for a drive than park and what do you know one side of the rear is 1" higer than the other, so i'll jack it up just enough to crawl under and what do you know a spring is no longer seated in the upper pocket, lift the car up with the jack unitll the spring falls down re-seat it and the rear is sitting at 26" with 26.7" tires


i asked this question a few months back afte the weight jacks install and iwas scared about loosng a spring, i was about ready to cut and raise my shock mounts to limit the travel, but Dean suggested the travel limit straps, my lazy *** still hasn't picked up a set, it would be nice not to hear the springs popping around when i'm going up/down a driveway

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Just need to jack it up enough to find the point at which the spring unseats, then get straps 1"-2" shorter than that. Obviously shock length won't work, or the shocks themselves would serve that function.

1988-305-tbi

the shocks are what limit the rear from falling off the car, they are the factorys limit device. if you raise the top mount up 2" the travel will be 2" less

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

#1. We are talking about a lowered car which means shorter springs, which means the stock shock length is too long to act as the limiter anymore.

#2. The stock top mount can't be raised very easily, since it mounts basically under the rear seat back. You'd hafta cut the hole bigger to fit the shock body through the sheetmetal, fab up new mounts, then seal all that.

So....Simply raising the top mount isn't going to happen. You'd have better luck lowering the bottom mounts, but you wouldn't want to lower them & reduce ground clearance.

1988-305-tbi

i work at machine shop, 30 min for full fabrication plus install, got rid of the back seats years ago can't sit comfortably with more than 2 people anyway if you lowered the bottom mouts you would be dragging them on every bump in the road, think about it

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

What would be the point unless you plan to take jumps and are afraid the springs are on gonna fall out before impact?

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

If simply jacking the car up to change a tire can cause them to fal out, that is reason enough right there.

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

I usually jack the rear of my car up the center section of the rear diff. I don't see jacking it from under the body as being very effecient as you have to not only get the wheels far enough off the ground to get the tire up, but you have to lift the body far enough up to get the rear far enough up to clear the tire.

IROCK ZZ

i have a car hoist that lifts by the body. also you gotta think about entering or exiting steep driveways at an angle (such as my own driveway)

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

That's the worst way to change 1 tire. What it gonna keep the car from FALLING, if it gets off balance, like removing the weight of 1 tire & wheel, from 1 side? Or if the car isn't on a flat surface? Or if you simply bump 1 side/lean on it/etc.? What will happen then? The car can fall, that's what.

Your wallet for repairs afterwards, not mine.....

AM91Camaro_RS

If you're not on a level surface....possible problem. other than that, removing one tire and wheels or bumping the car isn't going to knock if off of a jack in most cases. I typically jack my car from the center of the diff, also. but, yes, putting it on a lift will definitely drop the rear suspension all the way potentially causing a spring issue.

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

I've done it that way every time I've done anything to the car and I've never had an issue. I could understand if you do it on unlevel surface (with one side significantly lower than the other) that you would have problems. But the car's not a flipping three wheeler- the two front tires are enough to balance the car enough not to fall off the jack unless you get some linebacker to lift up one side of the car or ya run hard enough into one side of it to knock if off the jack. In either situation, you're probably trying to knock it off the jack. That being said, I don't leave the car on just the jack if I'm under it working on it- I put stands under it. But for just changing the tires, it works fine. If the jack is well seated under the car, it's not an easy task to accidentally knock it off.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Nice editing to remove.....
"I can tell you've probably never done it to a car and saying it will not work cause the car will fall off a jack by bumping it makes me wonder if you've even had a car on a jack. If it's well seated, it's not easy to knock one off."

You are SO FAR OFF that me, at 38 yrs old, have never done it. All it takes is one mistake, of forgetting the car is balanced on a floor jack & using it as leverage to get up (like putting your hand on it & pulling up) to learn NEVER DO THAT AGAIN!

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

in all reality, jacking up the car by the diff and removing a single rear wheel and tire will not change the weight of the car enough to make it fall over any differently than if you still had both tires on the car. And besides, you only have to jack the car up enough to get the tire off the ground, we are not talking about jacking the car up a foot here. Even is the car did rock a little, the other tire would hit the ground and the car would still be sitting on the floor jack and that tire.

Also, the front wheels are still on the ground! the car is not going to fall, its practically impossible, unless the car twists like a pretzel because of massive rot or structural damage.

Its perfectly safe. Just use common sense when working on a car that's jacked up and not supported by jackstands.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

as far as limit straps, you could also attach them to the side of the spring pocket and around the axle tube or sway bar clamp mount

gotabekidding

Back on subject....

If you have shorter lowering springs and your concern is the spring falling out, raising the upper spring perch will do nothing but allow you to use factory springs at a lower ride height.

Old MG's had a big leather strap bolted to the axle and the other end to the body, to limit the travel of the rear axle.

Modifying the vehicle's framework seems to be a bit on the extreme side.

If you are in a fabrication/machine shop - then fabricate a mount to be welded to the rear axle and then fabricate a upper mount to be attached to the frame. As mentioned before, jack up one side by the frame and see where the spring would come off its perch, then measure the distance between the to mounting points that you made - then minus an inch.

You do not have to use a leather strap like MG used, but you could use a vynil encased metal cable with swedged ends. It only has to support the weight of the rear axle.

That to me is a compromise between the frame mod and the shock strap.

Personally I like the shock strap mentioned earlier, it is simple, efficient and not expensive.

IROCK ZZ

Well I am a mechanic, and even do some road service calls, and by no means is jacking up and vehicle by the center of the axle considered safe!

You run the risk of having the car fall off the jack(not matter how well you seat it). Not only is it unstable(some more than others) but when you have a rear wheel drive vehicle, with the emergency brake set on the rear tires, and both tires off the ground, what is left to keep the car still?

For the sake of the forums lets just be as safe as possible, or at least just recognize the proper procedures for lifting your car and proceeding to work safely. if you still choose to do things your own way, well, to each their own and theirs only one way for the truly ignorant to learn!

No offense is meant to anybody at thirdgen since none here is ignorant by any means as im sure everyone here knows the safest possible way, some still choose to take shortcuts.

Fords88Bird

The person using the jack in the center is probably using jackstands when the car is up for safety sake anyways, so what's the big deal. Later.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

As pointed out by someone else....The front wheels do not have the luxury of the e-brake to hold them still from rolling forward.

You go jack up your car by just the center & pull down on one side, if you are so confident that it is "practically impossible" to fall. Floor jacks are strong in the vertical direction of lift. Apply a bit of sideways force (car twisting) and you'll see how fast the arms of a floor jack can collapse.

In the end...You do it your way, I'll do it mine. But I'll never get under your car.

AM91Camaro_RS

where did he (or I) say that the jack is the only thing left under the car to hold it up? jack the car up, put stands under it. two tires up, used the jack once, resting safely on jack stands. If I want all four up, I then go put my jack under the center of the k-memeber, jack it up, put stands under the a-arms (typically under the bushing area). Unfortunate thing is that this thread isn't titled "how you should or shouldn't jack up your car"...lets let people give their ideas on the original subject here.

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

That was my point. When I jack the car up (as I was talking about in the first post), I do it on a flat, level, concrete floor and don't jack the car up far enough in the air to fall off and smash it to pieces. The tires an inch off the ground is hardly far enough to cause the car to plumit to the ground in a destructive death crash. Wheel comes off, other wheel goes on. If I'm doing anything other than changing out wheels, two stands go under the car.

See above. I don't change LCAs or anything with the jack alone on the center section, I was talking about just changing the wheels.
I removed it because I thought it might be construed as offensive. I try to keep things civil on here.



I wasn't talking about changing wheels on the side of the road. Doing that with on jack wouldn't be a good idea for the reasons you mentioned and the fact the roads aren't flat or level. I was talking about changing wheels (from my 16s to 17s or vice versa) in my shop with very flat and level floor. I put boards behind and in front of the front tires before jacking the rear up, so the chances of the car rolling are very low. I don't see my method as a short cut by any means other than not having to get the jack under the car once instead of twice.

At what point in changing the rear wheels out on a vehicle would one have cause to place one's self under the car and pull on the under-carriage?

gregsz-28

iTrader: (1)

The same guy that talks about lowering a car down while someone is under it...:

Also says this:

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

#1....It wasn't me under the car, he was.

#2....There was NO CHOICE, due to the short springs. Somebody HAD to hold them in place, while the car was lowered. BUT, the wheels & tires were on, so the car could only come down so far. And it was only lowered enough to get the springs seated, not lowered all the way down. Unlike being under a car while the wheel was off!

#3....There were 2 floor jacks & 2 jack stands, 1 per side. Even when 1 side was off the jack stand, the whel & tire were already on, as well as the other side still on a jack stand.

You can try to twist my words to suit you, but you FAILED!

gregsz-28

iTrader: (1)

You could have installed limiting straps, that was another choice.

I didn't twist your words around, I quoted exactly what you said.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

No ****, but i was talking about the car rocking off the jack, not rolling off of it. Who in there right mind would jack up a car on a hill? We have the Darwin awards for people like that.

And again, your confusing yourself. Jack up the rear of the car enough to change a tire and stand on the top of the quarter panel for that matter, its not going anywhere, even without jackstands, but why on earth would you do that?

Jack the car up and put it on jackstands push all you want down on the car, its not going anywhere. Push it side to side, front to back, yup, if you push hard enough, its going to fall, basic physics here. Whats so surprising? This isnt the issue in question.

I never said its safe to jack up a car on a hill, or in the side of the car and work under it. When would you even do that? all you would ever do on the side of the road is change a tire or get towed. If you are on a hill, why would you even try to change a tire? Common sense.

You are the one who started with all this bullcrap about jacking up a car on an incline and yada yada yada. Common sense, thats why i said it. There are a million ways for somebody to hurt themselves working under a car, anything can happen. But why would it be my fault if my car was on jackstands, on a flat level surface, and some ******* decided to push the car forward or sideways? You sit here and come up with all these bullcrap ideas and situations in ever post of yours almost anywhere on this board and try to make it sound like all of us here are idiots and your some kind of ****ing super-genius. Go play in traffic

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

so how would a car almost fall down with 2 floor jacks and 2 jack stands under the rear of the car? just by leaning on it slightly? come on, stop making things up to try and prove your point.

This thread needs a clean up....isle 3

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Geeeez!

I wasn't talking about MY car falling. I was talking about others trying to change a tire simply on a floor jack under the diff. Their words, not mine.

I'm am really surprised at how people are trying SO HARD to twist my words around in this thread, but fail to do every single time. Y'all wanna point out one single sentence & ignore the rest of my words, to suit y'all. Sad really.....

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Kinda hard to choose a limiting strap, on the first day of install. Kinda need to know the length, before just slapping something in, that may not be the right length.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

I don't come up with "bullcra ideas"...I look at possible failuers & prevent them from ever happening. Someone may do it just fine 100 times, but on the 1 time it does fall & break/damage something else, they'll be hating life.

Bottom line.....Changing a tire, REGARDLESS OF THE GROUND, is isanely stupid to do, on only a floor jack under the center of the diff. No 2 ways about that.

To change a tire, no more than 1 tire ever needs to be off the ground.


I'm no genius, but I also do not do potentially stupid stuff....Like go join you playing in traffic. Your on your own on that.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

I don't come up with "bullcrap ideas"...I look at possible failuers & prevent them from ever happening. Someone may do it just fine 100 times, but on the 1 time it does fall & break/damage something else, they'll be hating life.

Bottom line.....Changing a tire, REGARDLESS OF THE GROUND, is isanely stupid to do, on only a floor jack under the center of the diff. No 2 ways about that.

To change a tire, no more than 1 tire ever needs to be off the ground.


I'm no genius, but I also do not do potentially stupid stuff....Like go join you playing in traffic. Your on your own on that.

Guest

Geez..all this jacking off.

The original poster needs to change the subject of topic to :Something to think about for the lowLIFE guys.

What was the first question? Oh teah, spring falling out when jacked. Lets me tell everyone something, it does not matter how you jack the rear of the car up, the spring will fall out the same all ways discribed IF it falls out anyway described. So the jacking point is? Doesn't matter. I jack my cars up from the diff all the time in the rear, it keeps the suspension loaded an even. I never leave the car parked anywhere where it sits unlevel as to stress one bushing or spring for a period of time.. I do not like my suspension sitting tweaked ever if I can help it.

If you have top worry about an altered suspension falling apart on a steep driveway? Then its a sh*t happens situation in life you can not avoid since you live or need to frequent that situation. Get limiting straps. I never had a problem with mine in 15+ years and it was a low daily driver that saw lots of shopping center driveways.

Rule of thumb- I never get under a car without the wheels on it unless I shove one of the tires under it so if it does fall the tire holds the car up. I do this with the racecars I work on. I will pull a tire and sit it under the car when I go under next to it to make changes. I have had a few jack stands as well as many jack break on me over the years. I like the added safety of the tire along with the jack and jack stands. I plan to be around for a while.

Most of you do not live in good ol sunny California either where we experience earthquakes rarely but large and unpredictably. Well, I was once under my truck pulling a tranny when one hit years back- talk about scary sh*t. I like my tire safety plan.

Fords88Bird

Let's all take a deeeep breath now. Later.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

not a thought that has ever crossed my mind, but damn, that would scare the heck out of me

radical82

If you're running lowering springs with stock shocks, the shock travel is going to be off....how about getting shorter shocks??? Most real parts stores, you know, the one's that still have books and not just specific application computers, can find a shock with the same top and bottom attachment method and shorter---shorter by the same amount the lowering springs lowered your car..... Most shocks are designed to work best (valving) with the car at ride height and normal driving weight and the shock is compressed by 40% of it's total travel......

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

But just choosing a shorter shock, will not always (usually not) give you the same valving. Life would be so much easier, if we could go in & ask "Gimme a 2" shorter shock for my....."

IROCK ZZ

you always risk over extending the shock and blowing it out every time you lift a wheel also. not common but does happen!

Guest

I am going to strongly disagree with that statement.

My front shocks on the racecar fully extend each time my crew jacks it off the ground, and that is every time it comes off the track after each practice season, qualifying, and race. Many times in a race day. As long as there is no damage to the shocks and no visual repair needed, we send them for rebuild in the off season just to keep the oil fresh in them and constant.

Grounding out travel on a shock is detrimental to any type of damper.