FlyDoc

first of all I have to say thanks to 1meanZ, for the info that he has posted.
As I stated on his thread I picked up my Dana44 for $300, not seeing one sell for less than $1500 I jumped on it.
I my Camaro in the garage, and the read-end and interor out.

FlyDoc

once agine thanks 1meanZ for the most two important documents for this swap.
I plan on saving the back seat, so with an 1" tub I will spend as much time modifying (narrowing) the back of rear seats, I think I know how I'm going to do it, so when I get that far I will post.
right now the plan is no roll bar, so with that said, I thinking that I will use an 2x3 box tube and fun it all the way down the rocker pinch seam, like some have used for sub-frame connectors, and tie in the same size tube up for the control arms to mount to, with some gusting for strength.
the plan for the car is to run SCCA on good street tires and A/C,there are no plans of steeping up to race tires then there should be no reason for a cage.

FlyDoc

[IMG]file:///Users/bryanresh/Desktop/IMG_3832.jpg[/IMG][IMG]file:///Users/bryanresh/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/moz-screenshot.png[/IMG]and some goodies for the rear end, I found out that Corvette and Harly Davidson are the same just add a few hundred.

lees02ws6

Some additional sites that maybe of use to you.

http://www.corvettecentral.com/
http://www.newmancarcreations.com/products/
http://dougrippie.com/?cat=15

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

You won't be able to keep your rear seat and still use the stock trailing arm locations and angles. You can see in my setup that I majorly cut into the rear seat are for the boxes that house the trailing arms. They would also be unsupported if it were not for my roll bar installation. If you need to keep your stock rear seat and don't want to install a roll bar, check out the link.

http://www.zeuscatalog.com/jay_cutshaw_s_irs_swap

This is a 4th gen formula owned by Jay Cutshaw, owner of Zeus performance. I've spoken to him on the phone, he is a great guy. As you will see in his pix, he made brackets that bolted to the knuckles that enabled him to relocate the trailing arms so he didn't have to cut into his wheel wells at all. The top trailing arm bolts to the stock lower control arm anchor, and the lower trailing arm mounts right below in his setup. To keep the diff from rotating up, he bolted a tube across the rear of the car that attaches to the frame in the same bolt holes that held the stock sway bar end link mounts, and bolts to the diff where the stock vette C-beam attaches. He does not have any pictures of that, but he told me that is what he did.

You can see that he has drastically changed the location and angle of the trailing arms, but he claims he has not had any issues. He also claims to have a rear sway bar on the car now, but I've not seen evidence of it, nor did he tell me where it is mounted when I spoke with him. His setup does not seem to be braced as sturdily as I built my setup either, but his car is not abused. It gets used on the street and is mainly a show car. My car needs to stand up to the rigors of open track use, so I made the cuts to stick with the stock geometry, and added lots of bracing that might be overkill for street use.

FlyDoc

I know that the rear seat is going to require some modifications.
if I'm conscious of this i believe that I will be able to do this.

lees02ws6

I'll be curious to see what solution you come up with to solve the issue of retaining the stock C4 geometry and keeping the rear seat.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Are those poly ends from VB&P? If so, I hate to inform you that they are a waste of money as are most poly bushings in these applications. these bushings do not take well to any deformation, they are mostly for axial rotation and not wideways loading/deformation. That's exactly what happens in the suspension and it will cause the poly to split and get loose over time.

Like this:

lees02ws6

Have to agree with twin turbo, in fact there is a guy local to me who actually put a C4 IRS in his BMW. At first he used poly, not only did it prevent proper movement, it actually caused his suspension to "stick" in place. The way the c4 suspension works requires translation in the trailing arm bushings, as well as, the camber rod's bushings.

On another topic Twin Turbo, some time ago I had gone through a bunch of your posts. You had mentioned shortening the trailing arms as a way to avoid cutting in to the frame. Wouldn't that exacerbate the wheel base length change as the wheels go through their range of motion? What is the best approach to accomplish the goal of keeping the rear seat area, and keep reasonable geometry?

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Yes, it would cause the wheel to move more in the wheel well but as with everything it is a compromise. You can still have a long virtual swing arm, however the IC of that arm will also change more.

I'm not entirely sure how much room there is to work with, I'll have to check it by hanging a spare D44 IRS under my TA.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

Me too. My trailing arm boxes protrude a little over an inch past the factory plastics into the area where the lower seat cushions go. Narrowing the already narrow rear seat cushion will be interesting. Here are some poor pix that may show what I'm talking about..



My other concern with using the factory angle and length trailing arms, is the lack of support. The trailing arms are what push the car forward, if you just box them in and do not connect them to the chassis I'm concerned deflection could be a problem. If I were to keep the rear seats, I think I'd copy what Jay Cutshaw did by relocating the trailing arms lower, just my $.02. Here are pix of what did, I'd not be comfortable with much less bracing..





I agree with Twin Turbo here. you can see that I used rod ended trailing arms, this winter I replaced the camber rods with rod ends as well. I got them here. Tom is a great guy with a great product.

http://www.banskimotorsports.com/C4_...spensioin.html

I'm concerned that shortening the trailing arms would cause some pretty extreme geometry issues. as you can see from the pic, the upper trailing arm would be VERY short compared to the stock vette length. The issue is that the trailing arms are quite far inboard into the wheel tub. The wheel tub tapers in right where the trailing arms need to go. This is is difficult to see in the current photographs I have, but as you move forward with the swap or mock the rear end in the car you'll see what I mean. And again there is the issue of supporting the trailing arms effectively in this location without additional bracing.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

If you limit the suspension travel with stiff springs and shocks it shouldn't be a problem. Kind of a bandaid I know but such is life.

That's exactly the reason why I'm contemplating using the Greenwood 5 bar I have lying around. It's a retrofit system for a C3, using C3 knuckles (heavy cast iron but pretty heavy duty) and it uses 2 lower camber rods to ctronol toe by their setting respective to each other and as a big plus, they have long forward rods with the way they're mounted, these can easily be shortened



I could also go with this, it's also a design for a C3, uses much shorter arms but I have the cad drawings to cut the patterns and then weld it up





[img]https://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/Stingxray/SLink1A.jpg[img]



A double a arm suspension is a little much, I built this for my C3 but don't think I want to do it again. My issue is, I only have 2 crappy 10 bolt axles, a 9 bolt + another fays 2 like on my camaro I could live with but not the crap 10 bolt.

[img]http://members.home.nl/m.b.p.jongman/reararm_1.jpg[/img



Back to topic.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Is there a reason you went so far into the cabin in this picture? It appears you made the trailing arm bracket area 2.5-3" past where the bracket bolts to the plate you made and from there you tied into the cage. I think I am thinking the same as FlyDoc and not make that plate so wide it would pretty easy to retain the stock plastics and seats for the most part.

UNLESS you did that for a reason and did not make it evident?

scooter

iTrader: (11)

What is the beginning of this sentence supposed to be?

lees02ws6

Would it be possible to reuse the existing lower control arm mount? Could you make a frame that could be welded to that point, that would then protrude in to the cabin, and have control arms mount to it? In a manner similar to this: (Yes I know it's 1st gen)



The weight distribution, wheel base, and therefore center of gravity, is different than the Corvette. Could you, create, and arrange custom length arms, using the type of bracket, in such a way to provide optimal geometry for the f-body, while retaining the rear seat.

lees02ws6

In several of these pics there is very little if any convergence of the trailing arms. The arms are arranged as would be the case with a parallel four link, and the arms look to be the same length. Could you explain what impact that arrangement would have on a c4 irs?

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

You are right, it looks like I went in a mile from that picture. I did that for a few reasons. I had to have room for the trailing arm bracket and the nuts and bolts sticking through on the back side. The inner wall of the trailing arm box is also in line with the outside of the factory frame rail. I could have made the box about 1" narrower, but then it would not have attached to the frame rail the way it did. I did it that way for strength and because I didnt care about the back seat LOL.

Yes he could, which I think is the best option. See the link to Zeus Performance I posted above.

lees02ws6

Yes I have had some discussions with Jay, and with another guy who has a 2000 T/A and mounted them almost exactly the same way.

However, with some ideas on the table maybe there is another way.

FlyDoc

over the past two weeks I got just a little done, I got the bat wing mounted, and 80% of the bracing for it done, will finish that when I know how much room I will have after every thing is mounted. to line up the bat wing front to rear, I used some turn-buckles and some scrap. this allowed me to line up left then the right side, prior to this the rear-end would pivot on the jack and was causing me a headache.
I put the left wheel on a hub and jacked in into position, I see where I have to trim the aft mount for the bat wing.

currant plans, yes I going to put my back seat in, and yes the seat will have to be modified.

Like lees02ws6 posted I going to tie the mount for the control arm in to my sub-frame supports, which are 2x3 1/4" tubing. the photo that was posted of the 1st gent mounts will be similar to what I do, it will take less space than how I had it planed. I will also put lighting holes down one side and the top of my sub-frame connectors to lighten them up some.

FlyDoc

here is my Sphon parts, I have pressed out the ball jounts, so they can go to the powder coater's to get a dark blue, of the rear, the only thing that will not get powder coated will be the carer.

FlyDoc

the drive shaft will need to be shortened, but I'm going to what tell I sent rear-end parts to the powder coater to order an aluminum pice.

the wheels that I am getting are 18x9.5 & 18x10.5 with 275 & 295

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

One extra thing I did was weld all the edges where I cut the car before I added any metal back in. For example in the 2nd pic you attached, I welded all the cut bare edges that were more than one sheet thick. It adds an incredible amount of strength, and it gives you a strong base to weld reinforcement to.

lees02ws6

lees02ws6

I believe 1meanZ mentioned this as a possibility in another post, but you could use the arch in tunnel as a base for a pinion support.

FlyDoc

thanks,
I was trying to figure out how to do the pinon support with the long bolts, this gives me a better direction.
I'm glad to see that the sway bar can be mounted to the rear, I was hoping that this would work.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Any reason to not make a bracket for the back of the trans and use the C beam instead of the examples shown?

lees02ws6

excited to see your progress. Keep the pics coming.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

lees02ws6, those are great pictures of Jay's setup that I have not seen before.

I like how he made the stock sway bar work. I wonder where his bumpstops are if he chose to run any. I'm using the sway bar mount location on the knuckle as my bump stop. He may have clearanced his chassis a bit more than I did, I'm not sure a sway bar would fit between the tire and the chassis on my car. It's probably just differences in the way we did our work. I like that setup, it is the ideal way to do that for a street car with a back seat.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I ditched the C-beam because I wanted exhaust clearance, and because I didnt want to make a bracket for the trans.

lees02ws6

You could use a short torque arm (and one third gen guy did just that), there's just not a lot of room on that side.

If you used a pre-03 viper diff case, which has the pinion mount on the driver's side you'd have an easier time with that method of pinion support.

FlyDoc

made some progress over the last few days. figured out how going to mount the suspension arm and not be over intrusive, need to do the passengers side yet. then pinon support, (pinon must be close to finish angle or the trailing arms wont go in correctly.)

as requested, I think it was from here?

http://s1211.photobucket.com/home/FlyDoc/index

scooter

iTrader: (11)

That was probably me, thank you! You can link the pictures from the photobucket to here without uploading them to TGO, they even have an option for the thumbnail view.

lees02ws6

Very cool, maybe make the nuts captive on interior side of those brackets so you don't have to remove any interior trim or seats to facilitate removal of the arms.

FlyDoc

got the pinon support done and painted, once I got out and working on it it only took about 2hr's.
it is 1" square tube, & angle to spread the force out. the ends mount to the sway bar mounts, there will be sleeves over the bolts to stop movement.

and more photos.

http://s1211.photobucket.com/home/FlyDoc/index

lees02ws6

Very cool. Have you tried to test fit the seats or the interior trim to see where the interference is? Maybe make an I beam out of that support to reduce flexing of the bar.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

I was thinking that square tube is going to flex a bit with such a long span like that.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

i have to agree, i think 1"tubing is a little on the small side for the pinion mount, especially over than length.

FlyDoc

after looking at it I was thinking the same thing, I'm going to put an 1x1 angle along the bottom. I will diced that after I get the exhaust in and see if I have room for a 1X2 with some extra support as needed.

next on the list is to pull the rear-end apart and prep for powder coaters.

FlyDoc

it is looking like the plastics will fit with only cutting out the recessed in portion and making it flat for the lower area. and for the top the locking mechanism will be moved inward about 1-2", so the upper part of the back seat will have to be trimmed and latch moved in.

Project 3.4 Camaro

This might be a little off topic, but after reading this thread a while back I've kind of been wondering if anyone has attempted a rear mount transmission conversion to go with the IRS? Would be a nice modification for weight distribution, especially for people who have dropped a lot of weight up front, all there really is to reduce weight at the back is the hatch glass, and I imagine at the extreme end of weight reduction the car might get a little tail happy so to speak without any weight over the rear wheels, but it would also of course bring the weight distribution closer to 50/50, in fact I suspect it would make it quite close.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Someone is doing a c5 rear/trans in the fab board right now

Project 3.4 Camaro

Could you link or tell me the name of the thread please?

Primetime91

iTrader: (15)

Look in the "Fabrication" section for it

Project 3.4 Camaro

That really doesn't help without knowing the name of the thread, I already did look and didn't find it.........

lees02ws6

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...transaxle.html

lees02ws6

Another item of note, Jay has a tab on each side of his pinion support welded to the frame. See pic, blue arrow pointing it out.

lees02ws6

Are there any updates?

FlyDoc

got the rear end parts back from the powder.

things have been a little slow on the progress, for some reason they want me to come to work, so that has been taken some of my time, and just seems like I go out to get some parts and it takes all day and the parts don't work to do it all over again.

made a large plate of 1/8" or 11ga, to tie every thing together, and completed most of the sub-frame connectors, or new frame which ever you want to call it. I used 2x4 1/4" tubing welded to the pinch seams, and will be tied in to the trailing arm mounts.
took out the gas tank to peel off all the undercoating, which has been a pain in the as.. it must have been rolled on its roof and 100 gal of hot roofing tare pored on it, its think and it is in the seams. so I scarp use wire wheel on the angle grinder, then heat with torch and wire brush again, and then when I weld what is left in the seams boils and blows up, sending dingle berries every where, and a hole.

and the new shoes arrived.

FlyDoc

2-photos

lees02ws6

really impressed with the work. I like the fact that you went with a blue powder coat on your suspension parts, front and rear, except for the diff. I'm guessing your going to clean the underside of your car also. That is going to look really great.