Do they then have the same lifetime gaurantee?

Right off J&M's site:
Now coming with a LIFETIME WARRANTY from craftsmanship and defects. That is right if you are the original owner can bend the plates or wear out the bearings they will be fixed or replaced for free.

 

No they don't, but you already knew that didn't you

Not here to argue over brands. Just replying to a question since I had the product.

 

I would not be so sure about that.

The Warranty covers 'craftmanship and defects"


Does not say covers damage to abuse or normal wear and tear.

I've worked in retail and my wife works in warrenties.

As Tommy Boy says, "you can crap in a box and but a warranty on it, but its still a box of crap."

Not saying the porduct is crap, but a warranty doesn't mean much these days.

 

From Founders Page,


"Now coming with a LIFETIME WARRANTY from the main plate bending"

 

I love you Johnny, You're keeping me entertained

 

Thanks,


I think

 

Yes, im laughing.

I think most of you know I post stuff knowing this is read by all. it will also be read in searches for years to come so I post info from those who may read and not know. i never really just post to the person I am answering- hence why I list sometimes obvios answers to the person in the discussion.

 

asswipe




that one was so I James has something to clean up after me today - im probably gonna get into big trouble for this remark, But I think he knows I am truely sorry for my recent rants against a few people. I need to stop the name calling and belittling and just stick to the facts. It just comes out to easy in my daily vocabulary....I have a potty mouth as they say

 

I hear ya,

I look forward to haveing you run down my car set up sometime, I am sure you can give me lots of chassis advice. When I finally get it on the road and discover its shortcomings, I'm sure you'll be able to tell me whats causing those!

Definatly more to these cars then just slapping on the latest and greatest parts!

 

I can give you guidelines, but shaking down a car truely needs to be done in person.

There is a saying I like to tell that explains alot.-

It does not matter how much you figure something on paper and engineer a car, any car designer/engineer/ manufacturer need a guy like me to actually go out and tweak a design and make it work/ get it balanced....On the other hand, we need those engineers to come up with a starting point or else we'd have to do it all with alot of wasted time and labor. It takes both to tango

I can give you guidelines on what to try and what to look for, but to give you exact balanced specs is all up to the individual car and driver (NOTE I included driver).

Reid Fleming just sent me meassage with a link to a Ferrari page showing how even Ferrari will send their crew out to a specific magazine test track to set the car up ultimately for that indiviual senerio- why? they can not do it on paper, not even Ferrari

 

well, my third gen is just going to be a driver, no track time, so I probably won't ever push it hard wnough to reach its limits.

Hopefully, it will be on the road this year though.

 

With that said- lets address the "back on topic" of this thread.

The daily driving of a vehcile is much hader on parts then most racecars will ever see. Bushings are subject to alot higher forces constantly....I know, alot of you are saying WHAT? racecars see alot higher forces...nope. They do not hit potholes, uneven angled driveways, dips, bumps, railroad tracks, dead animal bones.....(I'll stop there) that tweak a bushing in an abnormal shape of defection. The hammer bearings with hard impact hits. Race track cars see high strain, but it is usually cylced onto force and then off force very uniformally (if that's a word) when a proper drive puts smooth imputs into the car for duration reliability. Cars see alot more uninspected miles by far then a racecar ever does. These products have to last for those needs. They are much more critical needs then any racecar. This is why most vendors will list "for off road use only. people suspect that if its good enough for racing then its good enough for the street- Not ture. its not a golden rule, but it has very common truth that more than often a stock product is better for a daily job because it has been enginnered to last and engineered to prevent catistophic failure so the big companies do not get sued...but it still happens. lok a Toyota with the current ongoing drive-by-wire issue.

if something has the ability to travel a cetain way- it will want to. If there is a way for it to happen- even accidently- then it will probably eventually happen. The goal is to make something with the mndset that nothing can happen hence the machined cup strutmounts with the bolt on the top. I even like Koni becasue they proved two nuts to lock their strut into the housing. You lock the first one down, then with two wrenches you lock the second one against it for safety. Koni realizes tha the strut can not ever come out of there. Knoi has high rebound forces so...Koni takes an extra precaution with two bolts. Alot like balljoints with cotterpins on castlenuts. Umi has no second defense if that retainer ring fails on a major suspension mount point.

 

I agree.

 

I have another food for thought and then I need to go for now.

Corrosion as we know is an enemy of bushings and bearings. Water, salt rust etc. Any time there is a moving part, it needs to be lubbed and serviced. It should be chaecked. The front of 3rd gens being strut assemblies require that the entire assembly turn every time the steering wheel is turned. Thus the bearing inside the mount needs to swivel contantly. If the bearings start to freeze up, or lets just say a car sits all winter, people buying any bearing produuct should take car an lube things properly- but people generally do not. Lets say this bearing freezes, and you twist the steering wheel and it puts pressure on the retainer ring- that snaps from pressure and corrosion of salt from salt on it when you got caught in last years first storm. The stuff flings up inside the strutmount from the tire underneath.

I have personally seen a freak thing with a Bilstein shock darn near coming apart at the threads becasue they can. like stated, the Bilstein struts are turning with every steering input and these decided to start unwinding. My friend had a cluck and took it to a shop but they could not find it in an inspection and testdrive- they had no idea what the noise was he reported to me. I slowly drove it around the neighborhood block , got out and started looking and discovered it to his fortune it was just a few more threads from coming apart- Jon drove this car to work everyday. If it can happen, it probably will.

 

If you following minimum thread depth guidelines and proper thread engagement, the bolt will always break before the surrounding metal for engineering metals. This is the preferred failure mode.

Of course there are MANY cases of people not following the guidelines.

Right, I would like to know why the bearing was not pressed in? Was it by design?

 

It's pretty easy. UMI part retails for $229 who has dealers who purchase the parts 30% off retail. They also at times have sales of say 15% off. $229-30% = $160.97 - 15% = $136.82. We don't have distributors and never will. Our business model is wholesale prices direct to the end consumer. I guess truth be told we are over charging by around $9.00 based on the 30% discount most aftermarket companies offer dealers. We DON'T make our parts in China so before you say "Chinesse crap" get the facts.

 

The bearings used by any of them are not that expensive. For good ones.

Look at the part numbers and search google.

You can get mercury bearings for about $20.

 

This is correct and confirmed.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/afte...-question.html

 

I have to ask why you never tried a bronze bushing? Or if you did what where the results? Seems like a great idea if the bearings where going that fast.

Also these should be roller bearings not ball bearings. Ball bearings are made for speed not load. Roller bearings can take more load and jerking loads way better.


Truth be told once you know the dimensions you can get any bearing you want for any of them. You don't need to buy from them a part that is off the shelf.

 

I would actually rather say that none of them are using good bearings. Baseline FK bearing in the J&M probably aren't going to last forever. If I ever see wear in mine, a set of NHBB bearings will be going in.

 

Just make sure they are roller bearings. Not ball bearings.

I cant see a good set of maintained roller bearings ever wearing out. Or costing more than $20 for those little bearings.

 

Take a look at your suspension. You are going to have a serious issue if you use a stiff bushing on any kind. The joint must articulate. The bearings are neither ball or roller they are a heim.

 

That explains alot. I still have to order them so I have not seen any yet.


I already plan on getting them from Founders.

 

First off FoundersPerf- I was speaking of the bearing possibly being chinesse crap, not the mount itself. Based on a post from another member here recently (Midnightfirews6) who has been weighing various aftermarket parts- your panhard rods are alot heavier than Umi's. Typically that combined with a less expensive price would logically speak volumes that a thicker inferior metal is being used. But again, my main focus on the off the cuff Chinesse crap is pertaining to the possible bearing being used in the mount.

Now we look 2 posts down from yours (Rawley2) posts a link to where someone claims they talked to J&M and the calims are they are making the strut mount body for you...AND they are putting in a lesser quality bearing based on cost (why else would the bearing be different and not lifetime gauranteed?) So it leads right back to my comment that yours must have inferior bearings in them.

The next interesting thing I NOW want to address is the FACT that you just claimed," We don;t make our parts in China"
1) Do you make your parts?
2) Where is the bearing in your part made?

 

Actually technically they are called "spherical"

Hunter used an Aurora Com12 from what I recall. I used a very high end Aurora AIB12 I think it was- or it might have been MIB12. I can not make out the first letter well on the old picture I am looking at.

Edit- its a MIB12T

Edit- 2 Scratch all that. i was looking ar the wrong page. I found my link under vsixtoy. I used Aurora PRN-12t which have a 46,000+ load rating. The others have about a 31-32,000 load rating.

looking back on the archieves, I wiped out the Com-12 bearing in 1 1/2 months. Replaced it with the PRN-12T and the rattle went away- it was definately bearing failure. Just over ONLY 1 year later (for some reason I was thinking it was about 4 years) the aluminum mount stretched above the o-ring groove and developed slop. I bought 2 more PRN-12T's even though the originals felt fine and tight(Change to new again for cheap insurance) because I was now going to epoxy them permenantly into place after I first tried to shim them with a .003 shim. I never had an issue with them again. The car was driven like that until 2009. The timeframe I changed ad glued them in was 2004.

 

Yes, you are of course correct. In my industry the "shop" name for them is Hiem.

Everybody has their favorite bearings. I look at what we use in our industry and then typically go for that if possible. So for me, I go for NHBB whenever possible.

 

The bearing in my founders says USA PKS12T

 

i can;t find it in any search, but I must say the "T" looks promising like it is decent quality. The T usually stands for teflon

 

Checking further into the archieves here on TGO- I found more info on the PRN-12T bearings and the COM-12T bearings.

At the time I bought them my quote from that post was :
{These last ones were not cheap (PNB-12T's are aprox $60 each/ COM-12T's are only $16 each)}

Big difference in price- even for teflon lined ones. I did not remember that even the original Hunter ones (The ones I broke in 6 weeks) were actually teflon COM-12T, I though they were COM-12.

 

I also could not find it. I bet founders has them made for them and stamped with their part number.

Still can use what you want just need to measure them.

 

Possible, although that would be strange given the direction and suspected volume of founders products.

Are you sure it is not FKS12T???

The picture shown before of the J&M mount showed that part number, which appears to be the teflon version of this $10 FK bearing.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fkb-fks12

Here it is:

 

It has to be an F:



LOL. Sounds like J&M is blowing smoke.

EDIT: Above Posted as I was posting..

 

One more link:

http://www.fk-bearing.com/

Quote from Site: FK Bearing Group Co., Ltd. is China's leading bearing manufacturer and exporter

Now I know I'm buying the Founders strut mounts!!

See thats why I was on this thread in the first place. Still a little surprised they are using ball bearings and not roller bearing. You can get spherical bearings both ways.

 

That brings me back to this: http://bearingsdirect.com/Plain-Sphe...-Bearings.html

No bearings to break like STG was having problems with.

 

Its not a ball bearing. It uses a low friction liner, in this case teflon. These types are designed for articulation not rotation. I think maybe you are thinking of spherical bearings that are typically used for power transmission than need some misalignment?

 

That is basically what they are using, LOL.

 

Yes I was thinking about these.

I would have called the others bushings.

 

I have the J&M piece sitting on my desktop. The J&M is USA FKS12T

So assuming that the Founders also has the FKS12T bearing, we can safely say that J&M and Founders are 100% identical, except for a sticker, and the J&M offers lifetime warranty on the $17 per side bearing and the plates. While the Founders only covers the plates.

 

Is it a big surprise that another Chinesse company is stamping its product USA to mislead people...Nope.

However, I seriously had no idea how correct I was when I made my off the cuff comment they must be Chinesse crap. Good ol' Chinesse FK bearings.

 

So now what? either buy one and get the junk bearing or the other with snap ring flaw?

 

http://www.fkrodends.com/products2009.html
You guys sure it's not this FK? Says these are made in the USA... hmmm.

http://www.fkrodends.com/Downloads/2...%20low-res.pdf
FKS12 right there in the catalog. So maybe they are decent US made bearings? Or am I wrong as usual?

 

You may be right? I did not see anything on that site saying they are made in the USA. I just seen stuff about their state of art facility. I may have missed it.

But the bearings are stamped USA so my guess is they are USA.

Still buying the founders parts. LOL

 

After looking and the China site that part number is not there.

I have to say the above is the supplier of the bearings.

 

This has gotten interesting.

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/afte...-question.html

I think this is what your talking about. saw this thread the other day. You'll want to double check but i believe it says they are the same plate, Different quality bearings.

FWIW I ended up ordering Hotpart/J&M plates this week.

Edit: Wow,thats frustrating when the computer doesn't update properly, then you post something only to find your a page of posts behind the conversation.

 

Its interesting someone appears to be lieiing about their product,

now it looks like its J&M claiming theirs have better bearings then Founders, when from what we have seen here, they are the same bearings.

 

The internet has really changed things. Suppliers really need to watch what they tell people.

I am guessing right now Founders makes them for J&M not the other way around. That is just a guess, but we can see they are the exact same part just one is about $75.00 cheaper.

We Still need someone with a founders part to give us a part number to make sure it's not a P and is in fact an F.

 

Did you check your bearing again? Was it a F?

 

Yeah, it appears to be an F.

 

Well I am not going to actually say it (I am sure STG will) but we all know what that means.