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Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Originally Posted by SlickTrackGod
These are NOT progressive rate springs. THey are dual rate springs. What is the difference? a dual rate has a few tight wind coils up top that AS STATED ALREADY A FEW TIME HERE- they just take up slack when the car is jacked up so as not to alolow the spring to fall outr of the pocket. A dual rate spring will sit static chassis weight upon them and completely cplapse the smaller coil winds so as to make the working rate of the spring completely LINEAR in function.
After thinking about this a little more... it seems to me that this arrangement would allow you to trim coils off to fine tune height without affecting the working spring rate... am I right?
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Originally Posted by InfernalVortex
After thinking about this a little more... it seems to me that this arrangement would allow you to trim coils off to fine tune height without affecting the working spring rate... am I right?
Yes by all means as long as they do not fall out of there when the car is jacked off the ground.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
I wonder how much could be cut off before the springs would actually fall out of the pocket. This could be a good idea though! Maybe all you would need to cut is like half a coil to balance the left / right sides for example. Would avoid having to install heavy and much more expensive weight jacks.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
If they're meant to totally collapse on each other when loaded, then you'd only be removing the thickness of the coil if you removed 1 coil. I dont really know how thick these are, but I'd imagine removing 1 coil would be something like 3/8" to 1/2". I dont think you could get enough adjustment in there to slam them out like weight jacks... but you could fix them if the front of the car sits a little higher than the rear for example.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
I have taken a 1/2 coil off of them on my Mercedes and took it down 3/8" more- why? because I used the equivilant of "big block springs" on a small block car- my heavier section of the dual rate spring I used from another appplication will not compress as much as the spring that was designed for my application.I've also used an aftermarket Koni Monotube that is 1" shorter in travel. THe larger AMG spring is shorter in free height so that AND cutting it a little more would fall out if I did not use a shorter shock to keep it preloaded at full droop.
The difference on Mercedes systems is the cars are raised and lowered on what is called a spring pad system. you buy thicker or thinner spring pads to adjust the overall ride height. I run the thinnest pad already so the spring being cut would be shorter then the thin pad and stock shock droop when I jack the car (that is IF I retained the factory length shock. I would have the reindex my springs each time I put the car back down onto the ground.
Coilovers are notorious for coming out of place during droop, but coilover seats are better guided since they spring encases the shock (they will mostly selfseat, but not always). You can also use very light weight "helper springs" to take uo the slack on a coilover- this is the same exact principle as the dual rate conventional spring.
In other words, had I used the Vogtland or H&R spdual rate spring designed for my car- and then decided to cut that- while retaining the stock height shock- my spring WOULD fall out of place when jacked off the ground. Not cut? then it would not. The spring is designed for that exact length not to fall out using the shortest spring pad in the system.
I do not have a shot of the front but here is a shot of the rear ones designed for the car at full droop. I could pry them out with a crowbar if needed. The stock springs needed a spring compressor, these if I trimmed them would fall right out. The softer dual rate is on the top of these just hidden out of veiw. These rears ARE the exact spring designed for this car, the fronts are not.
Last edited by SlickTrackGod; 01-29-2014 at 11:50 AM.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Originally Posted by SlickTrackGod
I have taken a 1/2 coil off of them on my Mercedes and took it down 3/8" more- why? because I used the equivilant of "big block springs" on a small block car- my heavier section of the dual rate spring I used from another appplication will not compress as much as the spring that was designed for my application.I've also used an aftermarket Koni Monotube that is 1" shorter in travel. THe larger AMG spring is shorter in free height so that AND cutting it a little more would fall out if I did not use a shorter shock to keep it preloaded at full droop.
The difference on Mercedes systems is the cars are raised and lowered on what is called a spring pad system. you buy thicker or thinner spring pads to adjust the overall ride height. I run the thinnest pad already so the spring being cut would be shorter then the thin pad and stock shock droop when I jack the car (that is IF I retained the factory length shock. I would have the reindex my springs each time I put the car back down onto the ground.
Coilovers are notorious for coming out of place during droop, but coilover seats are better guided since they spring encases the shock (they will mostly selfseat, but not always). You can also use very light weight "helper springs" to take uo the slack on a coilover- this is the same exact principle as the dual rate conventional spring.
In other words, had I used the Vogtland or H&R spdual rate spring designed for my car- and then decided to cut that- while retaining the stock height shock- my spring WOULD fall out of place when jacked off the ground. Not cut? then it would not. The spring is designed for that exact length not to fall out using the shortest spring pad in the system.
I do not have a shot of the front but here is a shot of the rear ones designed for the car at full droop. I could pry them out with a crowbar if needed. The stock springs needed a spring compressor, these if I trimmed them would fall right out. The softer dual rate is on the top of these just hidden out of veiw. These rears ARE the exact spring designed for this car, the fronts are not.
Does that mean you would not recommend cutting a 1/2 coil off the Vogtlands? I am looking into these springs but want the front either level or 1/2" lower.
I don't want to buy these and then when I swap to aluminum heads or something have the front sit higher due to lack of weight.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
You can just offset the lighter heads with extended ball joints. It will actually raise roll center making the front handle better as well. I am going to get aluminum heads eventually as well but I already have the extended ball joints so if I install these it should work well I think. Hard to know until everything is installed on the car and then I can play around with the isolators / heater hose trick, etc.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Originally Posted by hellz_wings
You can just offset the lighter heads with extended ball joints. It will actually raise roll center making the front handle better as well. I am going to get aluminum heads eventually as well but I already have the extended ball joints so if I install these it should work well I think. Hard to know until everything is installed on the car and then I can play around with the isolators / heater hose trick, etc.
Do you have a link for these? I can't find 'extended' ball joints. Just factory replacements.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
I can't remember and the invoice is somewhere at home buried in papers .. But if you say that it's for a 1988 Camaro IROC-Z they'll send you the right ball joint. The only thing that didn't work was the boot that came with it, had to use one from another car (can't remember which one either). So I would double check with them that they send the right size boot. Also, you have the option between multiple lengths, so ask them which ones they offer and you can choose.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Originally Posted by hellz_wings
I can't remember and the invoice is somewhere at home buried in papers .. But if you say that it's for a 1988 Camaro IROC-Z they'll send you the right ball joint. The only thing that didn't work was the boot that came with it, had to use one from another car (can't remember which one either). So I would double check with them that they send the right size boot. Also, you have the option between multiple lengths, so ask them which ones they offer and you can choose.
The front has settled in and the front and rear are level. I'd definitely buy these springs from Founders again. WAY better than Eibach. Just FYI if you don't have it already Founders adjustable panhard and bolt on LCA drop brackets are excellent quality.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
I have a set of these springs on my 91 Vert and I am very happy with them. They settled in nice and level after about a 100 miles and the ride is much better than my Eibach springs were on my old Formula. If I ever drop another third gen it will be with another set of these springs.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
So after reading this thread and checking out the link given by Founders to purchase these springs from their website it left me wondering if these were lowering springs or stock replacements. The Founders website does not specify whether they lower the car and/or how much. So I decided to do a Google search and found that they are in fact lowering springs and is supposed to drop your car 1.2" (30mm) from stock height. It also notes that the vehicle drop height is an approximate value and vehicle option content and equipment. Just thought I'd list what the expected drop height it since the Founder website fails to do so under the Product Description for these springs.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
With the huge variety of different weights these cars had from the factory its impossible to guarantee a certain amount of drop or a certain window of drop. They try, but it's still a 1 size fits all part when the factory had something like 10 different spring options for each corner of the car. (Remember the SPID sheet with its "computer selected spring"?)
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Yes, just thought I'd share my findings regarding their "estimated" drop measurement to get an idea. Either way should drop the car from the height it came factory. By now all of our stock springs are sagging to some degree so the drop may be noticeable to some and less noticeable to others based of each cars weight and extent of stock spring sag. It is a round about number of what one could expect from these springs.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Originally Posted by Zeifer
Does that mean you would not recommend cutting a 1/2 coil off the Vogtlands? I am looking into these springs but want the front either level or 1/2" lower.
I don't want to buy these and then when I swap to aluminum heads or something have the front sit higher due to lack of weight.
Just know that springs bought from any company is a crap shoot. You can not trust others advices because most people that buy one type generally have never tried another type so most opinions fall short of experience.
Buy spring sis a trial and error process.
What do I do? I always by spring for a heavier car and put them in a lighter car. I have found over many applications over many years of doing this game that this process is what generally makes me happy. I buy cars mostly with lightweight motors since I am much more into handling of a vehicle than I am power. I buy V8 springs for a V6, I buy BBC spring for a SBC, etc etc. Those spring packages always make the front of the car higher than the rear of the car "at first"- I know this when I do the preliminary install and measure ride heights, From there I cacluate apros on the consevative side what I want to trim off them, then remove them and trim them the refit everything and see how close I am. I will occationally do this 3 or 4 times to fine tune the ride height on both sides to match even if it is only trimming for another 1/16". It takes time, there are no short cuts.
Since we were talking a litle about my Mercedes earlier, I have springs somewhat equivilant to these Vogtlands on it. Mercedes has a unique "spring pad system" where you refine the ride height with 5 different thicknesses of top rubber isolators- I did not bother with this BS. I have the thinnest rubbers in there, I then bought the H&R supersport spring (most firm of 3 levels offered for these W202 cars) but also bought the firmest ones for the V8 AMG car, not for my 2.4 lightweight motor. I customised a lot under this car like every car I own adn this thing rides firm but still "Mercedes plush like one would expect. Why? Its all in swaybar choice, suspension and wheel weights (weight kept low for a better ride ration of unsprung to sprung weight) and dam good shock dampering. I run Koni Yellows on this car with rebound maxxed.
Moral of the story? there are no shortcuts. you want performance? You will give up a little ride quality in order not to have alot of body roll, but damper it correctly (again trial and error) and learn about roll centers and the overall roll axis and how the chassis leverages the suspension, and you will have a very nice riding sports car...even out of a piece of crap handling luxury box like this I am currently building. This car will now turn circles on any new AMG... and yes I mean turn circles on. The cup holders just will not keep the coffee from spilling over in high g's (Im being silly of course) but will seriously not spill with lids of in daily commuting at frewway speeds with the liquid 1" from the top.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Yep, just bought a bunch of Founders parts. Caster/camber plates, TQ Arm, the Vogtland springs, and their LCA brackets.
Combined with the complete steering rebuild, I still need to buy some del-a-lum front LCA bushings, and all new swaybar mounting hardware the car will be brand new in terms of suspension and steering.
Expensive, but needed.
Last edited by Thirdgen89GTA; 08-04-2015 at 05:30 PM.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Originally Posted by IBrockZ
Yes, just thought I'd share my findings regarding their "estimated" drop measurement to get an idea. Either way should drop the car from the height it came factory. By now all of our stock springs are sagging to some degree so the drop may be noticeable to some and less noticeable to others based of each cars weight and extent of stock spring sag. It is a round about number of what one could expect from these springs.
27 years later my car still rides like a sky jacker.
Front fender lip to ground is 27.5"
Rear fender lip to ground is also 27.5"
I have no idea if the car is supposed to be even front to back when stock.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
My car with the stock springs was sagging badly. Now with the extended ball joints and cut MOOG rear springs I'm a bit lower but still too high IMO. I am thinking about getting these springs since they're a bit stiffer than stock and will lower my car a bit more, plus they're lighter apparently.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Originally Posted by TEDSgrad
Stock Ride Height - taken Dec '89 above Santa Barbara, CA
Yeah, but looking more so for measurements from a car that in in stock condition, even with new springs.
I measured from the fender lip to the ground and got 27.5" all the way around. But I don't know if thats the way its supposed to sit. Or if there should be a bit of a rake to the stock ride height.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
I installed over the winter my custom front weight jack system for the front and rear and just got it on the ground this weekend and I have it on its lowest setting for the front and its riding 27.5" Which is about 1" higher than the height it was with cut moog 5664s. Its a 850lb 9.5" spring and 2-2.5" adjuster height for a total 12" free height (same as my cut moog 5664s) but yet it sits 1" higher and it looks just like the pic above. I have only 25.5" tall tires on 17" rims so it looks worse I guess but Im going 20" rims so I'm not really worried I guess. Just thought it would sit lower even with a BBF up front. Also I verified all the springs are fully seated.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
That's very strange ! I would have thought you could go as low as 24" or something like that.. You could always get extended ball joints to lower it an extra half inch or so.. and help with the low RC issue by using lowering springs.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Originally Posted by hellz_wings
That's very strange ! I would have thought you could go as low as 24" or something like that.. You could always get extended ball joints to lower it an extra half inch or so.. and help with the low RC issue by using lowering springs.
I considered those, but haven't decided on just how extended the ball joints I want to get should be. was going measure the angle of the A-arm before and after.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Originally Posted by hellz_wings
That's very strange ! I would have thought you could go as low as 24" or something like that.. You could always get extended ball joints to lower it an extra half inch or so.. and help with the low RC issue by using lowering springs.
Yea I'm not exactly thrilled by the height lol.
I could drop another 1/2" maybe by taking out the poly isolators but I'd rather leave them in bc of vibrations/road noise.
AFter reading up I see that the 9.5" spring and the 2.5" of space for the WG your barely able to lower 1" than stock. So going with a 8" spring solves the issue. but its a harsher ride due to the shorter spring.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
The front non working rates are 566-1062 with working rates typically starting at 732-1062. What that means is they have the lower rate as dead coils to take up space when the car is at full droop so the springs don't fall out of the spring pockets. The rear non working rates are 124-283 with the working rates starting at 163-223 with the 124-163 being dead coils and from 223-283 you will only see at full compression when your on you bump stops.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Originally Posted by -=Z28=-
The front non working rates are 566-1062 with working rates typically starting at 732-1062. What that means is they have the lower rate as dead coils to take up space when the car is at full droop so the springs don't fall out of the spring pockets. The rear non working rates are 124-283 with the working rates starting at 163-223 with the 124-163 being dead coils and from 223-283 you will only see at full compression when your on you bump stops.
The 183-228 came from founders when I emailed them, they didn't have info for the front springs.
I didn't realize the fronts were that much stiffer. Aren't the stockers only around the low 700's?
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
The voltland springs are ALOT stiffer than the OEM. I'm actually surprised at how much stiffer and wish they were out a few years ago when I had tried the sportlines.
Stock front range: Linear rate (based off my memory)
Front ranged from 550 - 750. Mostly based on the 5660/5662(WS6)/5664(stiffest)
Rear had 2, 5665 = 105lbin, cargo progressive spring for heavier loads can't remember rate.
Ebaich rates:
Sportlines = Front 700 lb/in, rear = 80-110 lb/in (based off memory)
Prokit = Front 700 lb/in, rear = 110 - 150 lb/in (based off memory)
The sportlines is actually equal to less than stock but lowered 1.5-1.8" over stock. Prokit is slightly stiffer than stock and only lowered 1". The voltland springs seem to be a much better option for handling/lowered ride height.
Im not sure but if they need a spring compressor I wouldnt run them. Only because I dont like using spring compressors and would rather run a shorter coil to make my life easier/safer than run a spring that needs to be compressed so the "dead coils take up space lol. But weight jacks is still king!
I actually looked into air ride for mine, that way I can raise it over speed bumps and crap and lower it for driving/shows.
Last edited by customblackbird; 08-20-2015 at 08:44 AM.
The front non working rates are 566-1062 with working rates typically starting at 732-1062. What that means is they have the lower rate as dead coils to take up space when the car is at full droop so the springs don't fall out of the spring pockets. The rear non working rates are 124-283 with the working rates starting at 163-223 with the 124-163 being dead coils and from 223-283 you will only see at full compression when your on you bump stops.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Ok, read a lot, hours worth. was looking for advice on cutting Eibach Sportline rear.
have 18" x 9.5, 275/35 front; 18x 10.5 295/35 rear on corvette rims (2" spacers).
Big Brake Upgrade front brakes "Awesome"!!!!
1991 cam z28, stock 5.7 and auto trans. hard top, leather, air, power stuff. 75,000 miles showing on the odometer.
Suspension upgrades include, del a lum front bushings, UMI rear adjustable lower control arms and panhard with solid bushings and LCA brackets.
Koni yellows front and back. Front on full soft, back on middle setting. Plan on adjusting for autocross stuff.
Fender heights = Front 25.3/8".... Rear=27.1/4" driver....26.3/4" passenger.
That's after pulling into my concrete driveway...sideways...after car settles during drive, probably more even.
Like to kill about of inch in the back to make the car sit more even (rolled fenders).
I am confused about everyones fender heights compared to mine. The front of my car sits down over the tire (or very close) and the back has a gap of about an inch or so(depending on side).
I am only about 750 feet above sea level, can that make a difference?
Anyways, everything I have done so far to this vehicle is a result of my research of the endless information on this site. Thanks to all. I really like my car and the upgrades I have made because of everyone on here.
Cut one coil? Drop an inch? Buy Vogtland? Cheap enough, why not?
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Originally Posted by BlueZee28
Why doesn't someone just call them if they want to know? It looks like they haven't been back on this post to answer your questions in a while, calling would be much quicker I'd think.
I called today and got their springs rates. They made it a point to note that they didn't want their spring rates in any forum tho. I'd give them a call, nice people. I would say their a lil on the soft side tho.
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
Originally Posted by Twin_Turbo
I run these, since they are made in Germany and I can get them easily for that reason. I do feel the fronts are a bit too tall, they are progressive rates and I have 4 coils coilapsed on each other tight so I will cut them off (this is on my 82 TA). Might have to do with the tubular subframe and bolt in perches on it however. I put a set on my buddies old GTA... a little too tall in the front also. I like the front a little lower than the rear, with these the gap on the front was a hair larger than the rear. Stock L98 car otherwise.If I were to do them again on a car, I would cut off part of the upper coils
Thank you for that. Thats going to help alot with my decision
Re: Founders Performance now stocking Vogtland Sport Springs
I just installed these over the weekend and posted a thread but it's probably good to share my results here too. I had Moog 5662/5665s installed on the car before with a little more than 20K miles on them. My driver fender heights were 27.5" front/28.5" rear. After Vogtland install, my driver fender heights are 26.75" front/ 27.25" rear.
01-28-2014, 08:32 PM
