FoundersPerf

Product Description:

Founders Performance has found the Vogtland Spring to be the best on the market. After evaluating the other springs, such as Eibach and H&R, we have determined that Vogtland is the best quality and the only spring we will carry. Vogtland is the only spring which is made using the exclusive to Vogtland spring VVS alloy. By using the VVS alloy Vogtland is able to manufacture a superior spring which is up to 30% lighter than other springs of the same spring rates. This will reduce your unsprung weight and give you better handling, response, and road feel. These springs come with a 10 year no sag warranty.

ABOUT VOGTLAND:

VDF VOGTLAND, a family owned company was founded in 1908 in HohenlimburgGermany. Today VOGTLAND is an international spring manufacturer comprised of three operating units:

VOGTLAND Autosport develops, markets and distributes premium automotive accessories worldwide. Our primary focus is on developing high quality suspension products, such as lowering springs, sport suspension kits and height adjustable kits. These high quality products are produced at our plant headquarters in Hagen Germany.

VOGTLAND North America was established in 2001 and is located in TemeculaCalifornia, supports the North American market. Our North American operations hasp established VOGTLAND as a leading supplier to the NASCAR racing circuit with our leading edge “VVS” spring technology.

MANUFACTURING:

Implementing the most current Wafios spring coiling technologies and our proprietary post coiling processes ensures that you receive a spring that meets the most current rules and regulations for linear spring rate characteristics. Our post coiling process includes tempering, shotpeening and a multi-stage presetting process. Finally the springs are phosphate treated and powder coated to provide a superior corrosion barrier. VR racing springs are tested to perform under the most difficult Motorsports environments. VOGTLAND utilizes the most current generation Instron spring testing equipment so you can be assured that the spring rate is within 2% of nominal. We also implement rigorous dynamic testing standards to guarantee our racing springs do not lose load capacity to ensure your setup before and after the race. When operating near solid height over the course of a race, VOGTLAND VR racing springs will not let you down.

Your advantages for more power are:

• significant less weight
• more spring travel
• obvious higher spring force

Only $168.75

Fits: 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992 Camaro Firebird F-body

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

What are the front / rear spring rates for these springs? I remember seeing them on HAWKS Third Gen website a few years back, and I remember the fronts being super soft compared to the MOOG iroc replacements.

Also are these linear or progressive springs?

Thnx!
-Marc

Jaysz28

iTrader: (30)

I would like this info too!

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Yes, spring rates and pics of actual ride height please!

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Id love a set if I knew the spring rates were in the range Im looking for.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

No updates?

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

Here is some LS1Tech/Google information. I do not know if this is apples-to-apples from the 4th gen application to 3rd. We'll see if anyone chimes in with first hand knowledge.

Front Spring lb/inch: 336 lb./in. - 542 lb./in.
Rear Spring lb/inch: 77 lb./in - 228 lb./in.

Working Rate (Front) lb/inch: 440 lb./in. - 542 lb./in.
Working Rate (Rear) lb/inch: 183 lb./in. - 228 lb./in.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

^ sounds kinda soft?

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

For front 3rd gen rates, I agree. Does anyone know stock rates off hand? Firebird went softer springs and stiffer sway bar, while Camaro went stiffer springs, softer sway bar, right?

Front - Aren't 4th gen front springs "coil over" the shocks? That would change the leverage ratio, hence the "effective rate" vs typical 3rd gen rates.
Rear - rates are directly comparable due to identical mounting.

The other 4th gen comments were those springs/rates lowered more than the 30mm/1.25" advertised, and more like 2" (50mm).

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

If those numbers are for a 4 th gen they will not be relevant for a 3 rd gen. Rears will be about the same but fronts are totally ditferent

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

+1

You cant compare 3rd adn 4th gen front spring rates, thirdgens use a modified mcpherson strut setup while fourth gens use an SLA front suspension. One of the advantages of going with the SLA setup is that you can use softer springs for better ride quality and still get the same effective spring rate at the tire. Basically, their springs get better leverage on the spindle than ours do, therefore they can make them much softer.

You cannot compare them. The rears should be the same, but even Koni makes different rear shocks for 3rds and 4th gens (why?! I have no clue, spring rates are nearly identical as is the rear suspension...) so we cant really even assume the rears are the same.

The rear rates look good, but Im not sure if a progressive or linear spring is more desirable for performance use.

J-RoKz

Any updates has anyone bought these springs?!

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Would love to hear back from founders regarding spring rates!

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

Well, since FoundersPerf hasn't come back and given us a definitive answer, I e-mail their sales account and left them a message via their website. Hopefully that will get us an answer.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

Why doesn't someone just call them if they want to know? It looks like they haven't been back on this post to answer your questions in a while, calling would be much quicker I'd think.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

The internet makes us lazy.. lol (myself included)

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

I run these, since they are made in Germany and I can get them easily for that reason. I do feel the fronts are a bit too tall, they are progressive rates and I have 4 coils coilapsed on each other tight so I will cut them off (this is on my 82 TA). Might have to do with the tubular subframe and bolt in perches on it however. I put a set on my buddies old GTA... a little too tall in the front also. I like the front a little lower than the rear, with these the gap on the front was a hair larger than the rear. Stock L98 car otherwise.If I were to do them again on a car, I would cut off part of the upper coils

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

How is the ride quality with these? From what I remember they are in the 600lb for the fronts.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

The spring part numbers are

front VA 959212 (VA = vorder achse, front axle)

rear HA 959213 (HA = hinter achse, rear axle)

whole kit is 959212

IMO they are comparable to the Eibach springs, they ride a little stiff but IMO it's about perfect. They are progressive rate springs. I can't find the spoec sheet on them for starting and ending rates

AJBlue87

Just installed a set on my 87TA but due to weather I haven't had a chance to drive it yet. Gave the car a great stance.

IROCgiraffe

iTrader: (3)

Post some pic(s) please when you can.

IROCgiraffe

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for your input. I have seen them on the Founders page and have me interested. Tempting to add to "My Cart" when I make a future purchase.

AJBlue87

Here's a pic right after putting back on the ground. I'm sure the springs will settle a little bit after I drive it

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

EXACTLY what I mean. See, the front gap is bigger than the rear? They do not settje at all, a year later it was still the same.

Can you check with a mirror and a light to see if the 1st 4 coils on them are collapsed tight??

These things are made in Germany, not by Vogtland USA. Since Founders has more leverage, maybe they can have them resolve this issue.

I could try and contact Burkhard Flossbach from Vogtland but it might be a lot easier if a retailer did.

That's a beautiful car by the way

AJBlue87

Thanks! The top coils aren't collapsed tight. That's why I figured they would settle after I get some miles on them (which won't happen till spring)

AJBlue87

One thing I did notice is the rear spring rates. Trans Am rear spring rates are slightly different than that of a Camaro. Trans Ams typically have a slightly stiffer spring due to the heavy rear spoiler. I'm about to replace mine with a fiberglass one I purchased from Hawks which will drop some weight so the rear may actually come up a bit. The front measurement is the advertised 1.2" drop but the rear is slightly more

FoundersPerf

The front non working rates are 566-1062 with working rates typically starting at 732-1062. What that means is they have the lower rate as dead coils to take up space when the car is at full droop so the springs don't fall out of the spring pockets. The rear non working rates are 124-283 with the working rates starting at 163-223 with the 124-163 being dead coils and from 223-283 you will only see at full compression when your on you bump stops.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

That actually looks pretty good, I'd probably prefer linear springs in the front for autocross but for anything else that should work very well.

IROCgiraffe

iTrader: (3)

So simply, that front end should level out with the rear? That drop looks perfect for me wants/needs.

AJBlue87

The front has settled in and the front and rear are level. I'd definitely buy these springs from Founders again. WAY better than Eibach. Just FYI if you don't have it already Founders adjustable panhard and bolt on LCA drop brackets are excellent quality.

TTA976

Next on the list... Thanks


Joe

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

So what does 'working rates' mean? And how would these springs compare to the stock MOOG IROC replacement springs that many of us have? They are "linear" springs while these ones are "progressive".

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

The softer coils on the top are apparently designed to collapse on each other. Each collapsed coil decreases the total active coil/spring length, and therefore makes it stiffer. So on a bench it will have a veryl ow spring rate at the top. When it's loaded it will have a much higher spring rate because the number of free coils is much lower.

For daily driving it means you get a nice high performance spring rate when you're driving hard, and a smoother ride when you're cruising. The only thing this isnt ideal for is autocross where you need super fast, stiff transitions, but remember most springs ideal for autocross in these cars are unbearably stiff and rough.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Hmm interesting. And they're lighter than factory springs too.. Seriously considering these now. If one was to cut one of the dead coils off of let's say the driver's side (my driver's side sits higher than the passenger) would this change overall spring rate? Or perhaps adding a spring spacer on the lower side to raise it would be a better idea so as not to mess up the spring rates? Can you add a spring spacer to one side only? Also, this spring set might just give me the stance I'm looking for since the front sits slightly higher than the rear, and I have the 0.75" extended ball joints, so this would probably end up having slightly lower front than rear and I could just raise the height with spring spacers as needed?

Lonnie P

Actually the top coils (dead coils) are meant to take up the slack at full droop. Otherwise when you jack up the car, the rear springs can come unseated.

The dead coils touch under the weight of the car & become inactive or "dead". The working rate is actually the measured rate when the car weight is on them.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Ah! That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying Lonnie.

As for performance, these springs are moderately stiffer than stock in the front, but the rears are quite a bit stiffer. This would be good for me since I have lowered my rear panhard bar 4" and my rear rolls more than before.

Lonnie P

Yes the numbers got my interest as well.

Alice89

iTrader: (6)

Twin_Turbo,

I've followed your build threads in the past; and know that you have worked on several 3rd gens. My point being you have had a lot of experience with different spring set ups. Would you say the vogtlands would be a good choice for a excellent handling street vehicle?

Do the vogtland springs have good handling characteristics?

I was going to wait and buy the GC weight jacks, but lowering springs like these vogtlands would be a lot easier and cheaper. Also these springs would probably ride better than what I was going to run.

For reference: I currently have Koni yellows with fully adjustable Spohn delsphere control arms / panhard bar among other upgrades. But I still am running the factory iroc springs & stock ride height. I really love the way these cars look when lowered; But handling comes before looks for me personally. I just want to get confirmation from you that these springs are designed to perform and are not like the sportlines that are for looks only.

Sorry for the long post Twin_Turbo, any input will be appreciated.

Alice89

iTrader: (6)

Have you tried removing the front spring isolators, while leaving the rear isolators in place? Doing this would lower the front slightly more than the rear, giving the car that nice raked forward look.

Alice89

iTrader: (6)

Would you be willing to post another pic of the new front ride height now that the springs have settled some more? I'm seriously considering buying these. Thanks.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Same here. The price is right. And good ride quality but better handling than stock springs is a very attractive fact here. Btw to help correct the geometry, extended ball joints might be a good idea.. Although it would lower the front a bit more, it would raise the roll center back up a bit which helps with the negative effect lowering springs have when they lower the front RC too much. I have them already and if I install these springs I'd be curious to see the height of the front of the car paired with the extended ball joints.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

afternarket subframe, no isolators.

TTA976

Do these lower the car compared to Moog stock replacements?

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

so these will give you a nice soft ride while cruising and more control when going hard n the pedal? ok so i understand that but are these stock height then or do they offer different ones?

SlickTrackGod

As Lonnie has already pretty much stated- I will be very clear about this. These are NOT progressive rate springs. THey are dual rate springs. What is the difference? a dual rate has a few tight wind coils up top that AS STATED ALREADY A FEW TIME HERE- they just take up slack when the car is jacked up so as not to alolow the spring to fall outr of the pocket. A dual rate spring will sit static chassis weight upon them and completely cplapse the smaller coil winds so as to make the working rate of the spring completely LINEAR in function.

A progressive rate spring will 'gradually tighten it's winding coil gaps on each loop and as the spring compresses more and more the rate builds progressively stiffer.

So now you know.

Vogtland are a very nice quality spring. Alot of people run them on Mercedes. I have a very equivilant spring in an H&R on my Mercedes that is the same type of dual rate. and rides linear on only the higher rate portion in dynamic use. It is never on the so called "softer coil winds unless I jack the car off the ground.

Alice89

iTrader: (6)

Thanks for the input. I'll grab a set of these vogtlands and see how they do. If they don't work out I'll just sell them and go with the weight jacks. A bit off topic, but what kind of mercedes have you built? I almost built a 190e with a cosworth body kit a few years back, but I got a real good deal on a M3 instead. The cosworth 190e's have that similar cool 80's look that the 3rd gens have. Below is a pic of what I was wanting to accomplish. I still plan on building one in the next few years; just for a fun grocery getter.

hellz_wings, I'll get back with you and let you know how they feel in the corners.

Alice89

iTrader: (6)

I wonder if that's why yours sits funky?

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

That one sits real funky, the other 2 were stock and they sat straight, I don't like straight, I want it raked. In fact, the wheel gap up front was a little more than the rear.

With the aftermarket stuff it gets real silly, yes this is with an engine, radiator and stuff in it. Not full weight but quite a bit is there. 4 upper coils all collapsed. Or I got the rong springs yet again (initially had the wrong rear ones in my box)

Alice89

iTrader: (6)

Oh woah! Talk about backwards rake! Yea I would like mine raked forward by a half inch to an inch. Your bird looks clean other than the stance btw.

SlickTrackGod

94 Cclass. Found and authentic Brabus kit so once those are sprayed and installed it will look alot like this only white.


Vogtlands and H&R are very simular in design. One had to copy the other. Both from Germany of course and probably made at the same foundry.