FreeLoader

Ok, I took my stock lo3, 305 automatic, 2.73 limited slip rearend, former blown head-gasket engine out to the track last night....

TOTALLY stock still, I've put on new tires and I have the stock 16x8's on the car now...otherwise...all I can say is that it needs a tuneup...

so here's my timesthey tore the stubs in half so i only have my results, not what they are)

run 1:

1.409
3.028

12.289
60.13
15.815
18.810
73.54

run 2:

1.442
2.743

11.946
60.31
15.471
18.484
73.14

run 3:

1.306
2.711

12.016
60.03
15.548
18.542
74.98


Here's what I know:

1. top is my reaction time....how good is it?
2. last two are my 1/4 mile times and mph....those are bad, very bad.
3. I ran faster on my second run even though I did better in every other way in the third run.
4. first run was my first time to run, so I wasn't really ready...but I ran each gear up to between 5200-5500.
5. second run, same problem, though I only ran gears to 4500 rpm
6. third run, I still wasn't quite ready, but I break torqued the car to the point that it was roasting the tires and just as I let go of the break I dropped it from drive to 1st gear, just to see what it would do....it did nothing as far as I could tell.
7. I have ABSOLUTELY NO starting kick...nothing, I have more on open road then I did there.
8. Either my tps is bad, or my throttle cable is getting stuck.
9. many, many other unknown problems on my car, but it still runs pretty good.

SO here's the question....

WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?

MY BEST TIME WAS A FRIGGIN 18.4!!!!

My reaction time isn't the best...but its not THAT big of a deal...

Could someone help me out here? I need SOME sort of explaination, I KNOW my car isn't THAT slow...

To top it off, I live in florida....just above sea level, no shortage of air where we are.

vjo90RS8

iTrader: (1)

there is definately something wrong. If you are not getting any "Check Engine Light" then you might want to go ahead and to a performance tune-up.....8mm spark plug wires, new plugs, MSD Blaster GM coil, MSD cap and rotor, open element air cleaner, fuel filter, pvc valve, breather valve and make sure your timing it set to 0* (stock), you might want to advance it a few degrees (do a search on this).

Does the car hesitate and jump any when you accelerate, that thing should at least be in the mid to high 16s.

91Bird305

Wow, thats as slow as a geo metro almost.

FreeLoader

actually it does every once in a while show a "check engine" light...and it runs very odd. If i turn the car off and turn it back on, a bunch of black smoke comes out of the exhaust and for a moment it wants to stall, but after a few seconds its fine.

I think the throttle is getting stuck....

But it didn't actually do that at any point WHILE i was racing...although it may or may not be affecting performance even then.

I'm also having o2 sensor problems...but still.

I dunno.

FreeLoader

Jesus, way to shove it in my face...

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

You need to do a major tune up to that thing. Replace your plugs and wires, cap and rotor. Clean the TBI unit. Take it off and hose it down with carb cleaner. Now would be a good time to do the ultimate TBI mods to it. Make sure your injectors are not clogged and that they spray evenly without any drips or spitting. Check your base timing. Set it at4* base and go from there. Some like more some like less. Go to the store and spend 20 bucks on an open air element and a new 02. Although a bad 02 should not make your car run that bad. Before you replace your TPS, check the voltage on it and make sure is it is working. No need to replace everything if it is not broken. Your car should run great after that. These cars are very cheap and easy to do tune up on. So spend 60 bux or so on some stuff and make an afternoon out of it. Plus you will learn a lot along the way.

bbtaz97

iTrader: (3)

a bad o2 sensor wont make that much of a differance. i ran with the stock one ( prob 130k on it and i knew it was bad ) unitl recently when i had to go for emmissions and i put a new one on . also i would do oil change and add some good fuel system cleaner to you next tank of 93 octane to clean the fuel system in addition to the aleady mentioned above me. . i think my wifes 95 buick century @ 80k could beat that time and you wouldnt want to loose to a car like that.

25THRSS

Look at his 60 time too guys. 3.0 and 2.7 are horrible. You could knock close to a second off just by getting a better 60, but I agree you also have something else wrong because your trap speeds are about 10 mph too low.

AJ_92RS

Next time you go to the track, slap a Type R sticker on your car. At least then you'll be able to blend in better with the other slow cars.

And try sticking your leg out the door and kicking. Might help.

BTW, I'm just joking about that. You would get laughed at if you did either of those.

I ran a 2.3 sec 60' ft time with NO wheel spin, and quite a few dollars in mods, and still only ran a 16.5 ET. I guess some of our cars are just SLOOOW!!!

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

They are slow compaired to other v8 cars. But ride in a four banger with mods and you will still change your mind. Yea my LO3 has zero top end, I mean zero, but I wouldn't trade its low end street mannors for any four bangers high end scream. My 150 twin cam 5sp grand am has great high end for a four banger but by the time I am into its pull my LO3 would be 4 cars ahead.

FreeLoader

Here's the thing, I got no bottom end...no kick....no nuthin, it just starts moving forward...and at some point the actual acceleration starts to kick in...

then of course the no top-end kicks in soon after.

What I really need to know is 3 things....

1. How much improvement does my reaction time need

2. What could be causing such a horribly bad start

3. How do you race an automatic...maybe I'm doing something wrong...

Oh, and my car has a tendancy to bog down when I brake-torque it...what could be causing it?

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

You can have the most horrible reaction time and still run a great ET. The clock does not start until you move. But your Et is horrible. you want be be slightly above .500 sec for reation time. Some tracks have implemenented the 0 sec time, where anything better than 0.00 is the best time. Your car should not bog that bad if you stall it before you launch. If I were you I would wrench on it this weekend, and giver her the full tune up that she needs and then run her next week. then let us know what your times are then. I think you will be much happier. Your untuned motor is killing you. You should be able to get into the 16's with at least a good running LO3.

Oh and about racing an automatic. I am a manual guy so some other guys will have to chip in. But for the mos part you should stall your car till like 2000 rpm and then giver her hell. Do not hift past 4500 rpm because you stop makin gpower by then.

25THRSS

Just thought I would add that I dropped .5 seconds off my et by shifting at 5,000 rather than 4400. The L03 may not keep making power past 4500, but it stays very flat after that. I also picked up 3 mph in the 1/4.

FreeLoader

I normally let it sit at 2000 or so...although one time I pushed harder to see if it would make any difference....it roasted the tires while the tree was dropping, but otherwise did the exact same thing.

I should mention that when I bought the car..it ran pretty much like this...

I gave it new spark plugs, spark plug wires, cap and rotor, oil change, air filter change, and replaced pcv valve seal.

It ran the same.

vjo90RS8

iTrader: (1)

check the timing and figure out why the check engine light is coming on. Also, the next time you go to the track just punch it from idle, im running 14.7s and thats what i do. Spinning the tires on take-out like that is killing you, your 60' times should be in the 2.3xx range, get it that low and you will knock off a good 1-1.5 seconds off your time.

FreeLoader

It just hit me that I need to change the coil...

I'll change it and set the timing back to base....

I heard that "supposedly" the car came stock a little retarded, and should be set 2 deg advanced for best performance...but I'll bet that its different for every car.

Okay, I'm going back to the track this coming thursday, I'll try it from dead idle.

Thanks a lot for the advice guys...I just wish it was something more specific and common and not just a general underperformance problem.

kevm14

When you say turn it off and back on, do you mean turn it off while it's idling, then before the engine stops spinning, turn the key back on, the engine begins running again and then black smoke comes out? All of this without engaging the starter, to be clear.

TonyC

iTrader: (1)

Yup yup! Don't worry about the reaction time, just roll into the lights and stage as shallow as possible. Try different launching techniques, your 60' time should be around a 2.4 at least, so when you knock that down, you'll gain more than the difference in 60's. Does it burn oil? When I drove down through the mountains, I fouled plugs, I was running 16.7's then I changed spark plug and ran a 15.9! So check that out too. All it takes is a little time, and money and you'll start seeing those E/T's drop.

Good Luck
Tony

FreeLoader

no no, I have to stop the car, put it in park, turn off the car, wait about 3 seconds, then turn it back on.

THEN, i have to keep pressing the gas for about 5 seconds to keep it from stalling....then its fine.

during that keep-from-stalling time, it blows out a lot of black smoke...I know its not oil, my guess is gas, possibly running incredibly rich...perhaps from a bad throttle positioning sensor, giving it too much gas for too little air?


Thanks for the support Tony.

FreeLoader

Update Time!

I just replaced my TPS...I still need to do the fuel filter, and its becoming more apparent by the minute.

New Track Times:

<b>1st Run:</b>

<i>Notes:</i> I accidently went through the water and didn't roast em...I ended up revving to 4500 at green light without moving...kinda funny, but horribly bad for times...

1.214
3.880
9.230
13.383
58.71
17.030
20.070
72.59

<b>2nd Run:</b>

<i>Notes:</i>Break Torque to 1400, ran whole way in drive...still getting bad start, I'm assuming from the lack of gas...still has horrible feeling at top end...no pull whatsoeverz. I can tell that I should be doing considerably better considering that I'm pulling off the same times as last time, but 4 mph slower.

1.035
2.642
7.676
11.759
59.65
15.388
18.485
71.25

<b>3rd Run:</b>

<i>Notes:</i>No break torque...shifted through the gears...had a lot of trouble accelerating, even though I could feel a pull, any idea what that could mean?

1.114
2.746
7.834
11.898
61.91
15.399
18.391
73.58


<i>Conclusion:</i> All in all, the TPS was DEFINITLY having problems...my computer hasn't quite adjusted to the new one quite yet, because I keep feeling a slight improvement everytime I start the car after having driven it(and the light is still coming on, but I'm not having problems). I really really need to change my fuel filter, that SHOULDN'T account for 1.5 seconds..but we'll see. In any case, my car runs a lot smoother, and my car has a much cooler exhaust sound, and overall I'm happy. I know my car wasn't running its fastest, and I believe I could get into the 17's now...but still, fuel filter and air filter and open element and oil change and carbon clean and spark plugs...and I'll be running the long awaited 16.8's....hahahaha

25THRSS

Did you disconnect the battery to reset the computer and erase all codes? If not, you should.

FreeLoader

Not yet, but I plan to.

I know, thats why I'm still getting the code 13...and its holding my car back somewhat.

kdrolt

Your BEST 60' timne is 2.64 sec.... and that's at least 0.4 sec too slow with a 305. 0.4 sec improvement at 60' will return 0.6 to 0.8 sec at the end of the quarter mile (assuming there's nothing else chronically wrong). So your best (18.39) would be dropped to the 17.6 range. And that's still too slow for a good running, stock 305.

Your trap speed best is 75 mph and that's still waaay too slow for a stock 305 in an Fcar. An inexperienced track driver can still get a decent trap speed as long as his/her foot is floored and the car has an automatic transmission, so we cannot entirely blame the launch (via the 60' timing data).

Both the 60' timing and the quarter mile trap speed are very deficient, so there is something else amiss. As many have already said, you might need some std tune up stuff done.

DO NOT go to the track again until after you have:

1. reset the computer
2. replaced the fuel filter
3. cleaned the TBI unit; check or replace air filter
4. checked the timing
5. checked or replaced the plugs, wires, rotor and cap
6. checked for vacuum leaks

One (or more) bad spark plug or plug wire could cause the problem you are having. So could a clogged cat converter.

Checking the compression would also be hugely helpful, if you can get a gauge to do it. Even more simple that this would be to install a temporary vacuum gauge and run the rubber hose into the car so you can monitor the engine vacuum under many different driving conditions & loads. There are a number of problems that can be revealed by studying the engine vacuum, and it's a cheap & easy test.

If you keep going to the track without first finding the problem (and fixing it), you will be throwing away your money each time -- and getting more and more frustrated. A stock 305 Fcar should run in the 16s in the quarter mile.

miacamaro305

i know ur # 1 problem u shift at 5k/5.5k u are nuts ur car is a ug boat at those rpm u redline at 4.5k tops if u have a lt1 cam 5k thats it thats why u ran so bad u car should run a 16.3 the best lok at my mods and i ran a high 15's

nick harmon

omfg, i havent taken my camaro to the track yet, but i pray its not that slow! if it were that slow id have to start driving my truck again, and just park my maro till i have a chance to install all my goodies. ofcorse i prolly wont do that either seein how the truck only gets about 9-11 mpg. ouch, something just stuck me in my wallet!!

kdrolt

Manual shifting at 5000+ with a stock L03 engine isn't smart, I agree. Letting the trans shift automatically makes more sense. But that's not his #1 problem.

His 60' time is unaffected by his shift rpm (because it's first gear only), and his 60' is awful. I already showed that if he were causing poor launches (hence poor 60' time), that he'd still only drop to the mid 17s with something more optimum. So it's not the driver, it's the engine.

Assuming his driving is ok or at least good-enough, then the engine is down on torque at low- to mid-rpm, based on his poor 60' time, and his engine isn't making power at high rpms either (based on his low trap speeds). Engine power drop at all speeds & large loads could be many things, but fuel delivery (clogged filter, weak pump), ignition (tired components) and breathing (clogged cat) are the most obvious.

The #1 problem is that he has an unknown engine problem that will hopefully be found by diagnostics & troubleshooting.

iggy1991

I had the same problem with my camaro. It was the same LO3 but I had a flowmaster 80 series muffler on it with an open element air cleaner and it ran 17.6 at like 75 mph or so. Granded it had bad piston rings and smoked a little at idle but it still beats the 18.4. I was also dissapointed at my times when I first ran the car. It felt faster on the street than the strip.
Since then I have rebuilt the whole engine with a slightly stronger cam from comp cams. I'm looking forward to getting my new times on the track.
The bad news is I don't think you will see that much better times with that motor unless you find out the problem. Check the timing and the vacum hoses around the engine bay for cracks and such. I don't think your throttle is sticking, those springs are pretty strong. Chuck the stock air cleaner assembly and put an open element air cleaner in, I swear you'll feel a difference. Did you gap the new spark plugs right? If you don't want to deal with that get the bosch platium 2 spark plugs, they don't require gaping and you'll feel a difference. Not a bad idea to run fuel system cleaner through the car.
Try getting a better reaction time by anticipating the light. Floor it as the 3rd yellow light is about to go out from idle. My car couldn't get the tires loose so I don't think you'll have a problem with wheel spin. Also let the tranny do the shifting. It knows best with a car like yours with no mods.

TonyC

iTrader: (1)

Don't worry about Reaction Time, it doesn't affect your E/T. Stage as shallow as possible and concentrate on your launch, it helps to write how you launched the car on the back of the time slip so you know what works best.

Tony

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

I would not recommend platinum plugs for our cars. The ignition is to powerfull and fouls them out. I had a set of +4's go out on me after 2000 miles. Car ran great for a bit than the plugs just went to hell. Went back to the good 'ol AC delcos and car ran much better.

prophecy xi

It sounds like your runnin too rich if black smoke comes out when u start it and o2`s are bad. were your old plugs all fouled up when u replaced them

25THRSS

Shifting at 5,000 is not bad at all! Please do not make such a statement when you have no clue what you are talking about. With my BONE STOCK, right down the the paper air filter L03, I was able to drop a full half second, yes that is .5 seconds with an identical 60 foot off my et. BTW, I went from a 16.8 to a 16.3. And that could have been improved upon even further with more track runs and less heat. This was BONE STOCK too!

nick harmon

i know that in my 5 speed LO3, if i dont shift around 5000-5500, then the engine falls out of its power band and goes from turtle to slug.

kevm14

25THRSS,

Don't tell us about a better ET from supposed increased HP. Tell us the stat that really matters - the trap speed. Did it increase? To go from a 16.8 to a 16.3 on HP alone, you'd need several additional MPH and I do not believe you gained several from higher rpm shifts. Are these the only two data points you have? You just made two runs? Perhaps something else caused the increase...

MrDude_1

IF YOU ARE GOING OFF YOUR STOCK TACH, YOU ARE SHIFTING WAYT TOO EARLY!!!





that said, let me explain why.

our tachs are terrible... as they age, they read higher and higher compared to what the engine is actually doing. what ends up happening is you shift too early.

shifting at the marked redline, i ran 17.5s .. by mearly finding out my TRUE redline, i dropped to a 16 flat. 16.00... a second and a half gain.



so that said, do a search on the board and you will read more about the shift points..



now onto your engine.

it sounds like it needs a tune up.

dont advance teh timing more then 6* unless you have a scan tool to drive around ad see if you are getting detontaion... if the knocksensor is going off, the computer pulls timing and you end up with less then you started... i would set it at 2-3*

for plugs, do NOT use +4s or +2s.. not only are they a waste of money, they foul easily.

if your cat is fouled it would cost alot of power.. somthing to look into... but i donno if its your prob... i was just getting so annoyed by all the overreving statements that i skimmed over the rest and replied...

any questions, just put em all in one post and we will try to answer em.

25THRSS

Yes my trap speed increased almost 4 mph. I was only able to get 2 runs in that night, but my 60's were identical on both run's as well. And yes, my tach is accurate. Which I have verified by math calculations. I actually think that if I had shifted slightly higher I may have been able to break into the 15's, especially since I shifted into third just before the traps, which I know hurt my times. The L03's power might not climb all the way to 5000 plus, but it is very flat all the way from 3500 on up as verified by looking at other's dyno graphs. By letting the car shift at around 4400 rpm it just drops way too far out of it's power band.

miacamaro305

im gonna try to go to the track and run shifting at 4400 then 4000 and then 5000 and then 5500 and those are my four runs for the night and see the diffrence of all

FreeLoader

First off, thanks for all the input!

secondly...my car only has black smoke when i start it AFTER the check engine light comes on, which seems to have slowed down substantially since I replaced the tps, and I need to reset the computer to finish it off.

third, yes, when i initally did the tuneup, the spark plugs had oil on them, and it was still liquidy, it wasn't cooked on at all....but the guy had JUST finished repairing the head when we bought it, and I doubt he did a tuneup, considering 3 of the spark plugs had been broken.

fourth, the cat may be clogged, I've thought about it and don't really know of any way of knowing to be honest. I'd just have to replace it, unless you guys can give me some test that I can do.

fifth...I NEED to replace the fuel filter, I honestly think thats causing me at LEAST .5 seconds worth of problems, WOT is nothing now, and thats a lot of the reason why I'm getting such horrible times, I'm sure of this because I get better performace at half peddle then full.

I don't think the spark plugs need to be changed, but I'll probably put some rapidfire plugs in with the new fuel filter...I also found out my relatively new air filter was covered with gas (I'm guessing from the tps problems) but was otherwise new, so I'll be getting that replaced...I'm still considering the open element.

I might be getting a hold of an 85 tpi 305 with gas tank, exhaust, and a 3.23 rearend for 250 bucks, so we'll see how that goes.

6th...I will say that I did notice a SLIGHTLY faster run with the higher shifting, but since I'm getting no gas to the engine, I don't think it would do me much good for right now.

anyway, at the VERY least I'm gonna be changing my fuel filter before I go out there again...but I'll probably be doing more.

Thanks again for all the help, and I'll keep you posted.

LastViceRS

To test your convertor's flow, you could try this:
Connect a vacuum gauge to manifold vacuum. With the transmission in "Park", hold the engine steady at 2000-2500 RPM for about 30 seconds. The vacuum signal should read about 15+ inches of vacuum, depending on the amount of compression your engine has. If the vacuum reading remains steady, your cat should be OK. If the vacuum drops off, I'd suspect it's in need of replacement.
This is the best cheap/easy test I know of for this purpose. Hope it helps.

FreeLoader

Yes, it's definitly better then what I had before(that being nothing), so thx a bunch.

FreeLoader

Okay, just figured I'd let you guys know...

I replaced the tps...it helped..I'm not sure if I told you guys that yet...

it got rid of my code 13!!!!

I just replaced the fuel filter, that definitly made a difference...

its faster, and stronger, and has somewhat more pull....

but somethings still wrong, it just doesn't have the pickup it should...it feels like its pulling harder.

Anyway, now I have a code 43, but otherwise my car is in much much better shape...

almost there!