ok i am thinking of getting this LO5 it is a 91 and i can get it complete for 100 dollars so i cant pass it up and it runs. I want to switch it for my LO3 (305) which has a slim 170 hp and the LO5 (350) has 210 w/300 ft lb's. Will it be worth the work to change out the engines? For the extra 40 hp? I think that i will be able to do a lot more to the 350 than my 305 also. What would you do????

 

it is worth it because it is a 350, more potential. Everything will hook right up to that engine, all youll need is a new chip, knock sensor and ESC module. Is it a truck or car engine. Cars have roller cams, trucks have flat tappet cams.

 

it is from a buick i dont know what type though. I think that the TBI units are the same right just differnet injectors? I am new into the TBI sys. I like a Challenge though so i will keep the TBI i was going to go to TPI but decided to stay with the TBI. Will it be possible to get into the 13's with this rather easy?

 

With new heads, intake, cam, and rear gears and posi. The LO5 has crappy flowing heads and a small cam with a restrictive intake. You're also definitely want headers with a full 3" exhaust. This is all necessary to get those kind of ET's in my eyes. The exhaust is the most restrictive so replace that when you drop the engine in. If you want a mid 13 car replace the heads and cam and intake as well while the engine is out of the car. This is a perfect time to pick up that engine and build it up while you still have the 305 in the car. Build the 350 up on a stand for performance and you'll be much happier I think.

 

just to let you know im pretty sure the L05 is only rated at 185HP. The Caprice cop car L05, which came with an L98 camshaft and bigger injectors was only rated at 205HP. How many miles are on the engine.

 

all of the LO5's are the same engine right? this is where i got the info i saw it on other sites too. LO5

 

Its definetly possible to go 13's with that engine. I ran a 14.6 with the combo in my sig, and now I have a performer RPM intake, I modified a 700 cfm commander 950 throttle body to work with my stock tbi system, and I am shooting for about a 14.2 ,Stock cam, I havent even changed my gear or done any suspension work yet.It takes a little work to get everything running properly after the swap , but its well worth it, I wouldnt suggest getting a cam unless you know how to tune proms either. I would go for it thats just way to good of a deal. Good Luck , and have fun.

 

That is the truck engine, the car L05 made about 10ft-lbs and 15-25HP less than the truck.

 

so what is the difference between the truck engine and the car engine? And the engine wasnt in a Caprice it was in a buick i dont know which one i havent even look at the engin yet but he said that it runs i am looking at it this weekend.

 

i know the trucks had flat tappet cams and the passenger cars had roller cams. I know the L05 cam in the cars is the same as the one in our L03s, but im not sure of the specs on the truck engine. I also heard that the trucks had a better induction and a better exhaust. But even if it had the same power numbers as a 305 it would still be worth the swap just because it is a 350. With some work 13s shouldnt be too bad, look at the times im running with stock heads, cam, intake, and tbi.

 

I second this. If you are paying a cool hundred for that motor might as well spend another hundred or two on it and make some power out of it. Even if you cannot afford new heads you could take the old ones out and port them a little. It won't gain much but will be better than nothing. You are going to have to have a custom tune done so might as well do it with a new cam. You can easily get a used LT1 for 50 bucks. Add another hundred for gaskets and sensors and what not and you have a solid foundation.

 

yeah, a used LT1 cam would be a good choice, but if you dont want to worry too much about tuning, i would go with a L98 cam (350 TPI) and some cheap 1.6 stamped steel rocker arms (www.sdpc2000.com sells Federal Mogul arms for about $68 and you could get a used L98 cam for about 20-30) Then all you have to do is throw in a Caprice cop car chip, advance the base timing and your set, they can be found easily on ebay for 30 bucks. That is only about $130 and you should gain some good power if done with some Ultimate TBI mods, adjustable fuel pressure regulator and open element. Headers and a 3" cat back is a must and an Edelbrock TBI or carb intake would give you even more power.

 

will my T-5 trany mount to this engine?

 

yeah, it will mount, everything on the L05 is basically the same as the L03.

 

What would be your best guess be for the 1/4 mile for this car if i shifed it perfect with the L05 tuned but stock?

 

I would guess mid 15s, give or take w/ consideration to traction and your launching capabilities.

 

well, the stock L03 does about mid to low 16s on average. So i guess i could see a stock L05 going high 15s stock.

 

do u think that i would be in low 15's to high 14's with 3.42 gears, K&N open element, L98 cam, 1.6 stamped steel rocker arms, no cats, 1 3/4" headers, 3" exhaust sys, and magnaflow muffler? If i had the 350 in it? If not i dont think that i will do it not worth the time for the little extra time that i would save.

 

Yes you will, probably better than high 14s actually. Just make sure you get a custom prom

 

with my motor bone stock, except for open element filter, ultimate tbi mods,3.08 gear and cop car chip I ran a 15.36 . Thats not bad at all for a basically stock motor.After that I got edelbrocke headers and I went to a muffler shop and had them run a 3'' pipe with out a cat into a glasspack and dumped it before the axle. I ran a 14.8. After that I was going to buy a holley 670 from my friend ,so he let me test it, and with the holley , and drag radials I ran the time in my sig , 14.63 with my tach broken so I had to guess shift it, (but after a few runs I was getting pretty good at it). I am very happy with the times my car has been running , and most of the things I have I found on ebay and here on our classifieds. Also go to tbichips.com and the guy there will give you a cop car chip for $30 if you email , you can also have the egr taken out of the chip so that you can use a better manifold(most cool manifolds are non egr). Good Luck.

 

Buy GOOD headers...Do not buy crap ones like I did (flowtechs) spring for the SLP's with 1 3/4 primaries or heddmans that are similar.

Ohh yeah, you can put the passenger side header on with the motor out, but you aren't getting the motor in with the drivers side header one. Doh we learned that one the hard way when putting my motor in. We had to lift it back out, remove the driver header, drop the motor in and then put the driver header back on.

If you are going pretty mild with that L05, buy the generic stage 1 or 2 350 chip for it from www.tbichips.com just to get it running ok right out of the box. What I'm using on my 350 H.O. crate motor and I need a custom prom, badly. But at least it gets me to work, home, school everyday.

Good luck.

Ohh yeah, I already posted a message on your personal site, but here goes again.

www.fl-thirdgen.org We can help you out if you need some one on one help. If you're decently close to me in FL, I'd be willing to help you with the swap.

 

The LO5 would be a great swap for the LO3 even if you did nothing to it partly from the extra power (180 flywheel hp for the LO5, 170 for the LO3), but mostly from a lot more torque (300 fw ftlbs vs 255).

There were 3 different LO5s, and they're discussed here

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hlight=LO5+9C1

The Buick LO5 would be from a 1991-1993 Roadmaster sedan or wagon, so it will have roller lifters and I believe it already has 65 lb/hr injectors. Even if you don't touch the cam, if you use a better exhaust and a decent cold air intake, you can get an easy 200-210 fwhp from it even if you do nothing else. With that said, the cam swap is still very worthwhile especially since it's easier to swap the cam with the engine out of the car. A F/Y car LT1 cam would be a very good inexpensive choice, and you'll find the reasons elsewhere here if you search.

The heads on the LO5 aren't the best but they too can be worked to flow MUCH better (as Dyno Don proved). Spedning the money on the LO5 swap would probably give you a bigger performance boost than if you sunk the same money into the 305. The real question then is do you want to bother with the nuisance of an engine swap and for how many days can you go without your car (while the swap is underway)? HTH.

 

well i have the camaro and a truck so that is no problem for me to be with out it for a little while.

 

FYI Thats just a myth, and its not true at all. Cop Caprices dont have chips

 

how exactly do they contol the FI then?

 

Yes they have chips, but not special "chips" nothing special about there chip at all that any other car wouldn't have. Its not the mythological cop car chip

 

yes, but he is going to need a chip for a 350 TBI, with the 8746 ECU. so he will need a caprice chip. not down on my caprice history, but did any cars other than the cop cars get 350 TBI's ?? i knwo the trucks did also, but they have the 747 ecu.

 

I believe the Buick Roadmasters also got them, and the Fleetwoods as well.

 

ok, so as caprices go, to get a 350 TBI chip for a 8746 ECU, you would need to find a police packaged car. correct.

that is why alot of people on this board say a caprice police chip. if not we woudl have people getting the chip from a 305 caprice, asking for help cause their 350 doesnt' run right.

 

Ahhhh I see where your getting now...

Yeah get the Caprice Cop chip, to make it run like a stock L05 or better yet order a aftermarket chip and save the money you would waste on a stock chip, seeing as if your upgrading to the L05 your after power anyway.

 

what company makes a good aftermarket chip for it?

 

most of the aftermarket chips we have looked at, have very little changed on them, some spark advance, and no speed limiter is about it. you are usualy best off burning you own, but using the 350 chip as a starting point.

 

I have been lookinginto chips recently, as Im getting one this month. I like the idea of a custom chip, and I like the way CFM-Tech thinks. I will more than likely use them or See what PCMforLess.com was to offer I still need to call and talk with them about it.

As far as making my own chip myself. If sounds great, but after reading about it Im not sure if I can do it.

 

initialy it is scary, and sounds hard.

once you start doing it is is cake. especialy if you download jprevosts VE table thing, converts your aldl logs into the chip file for you base on the data logs. really sweet little app. i used it alot, until i was very close on the VE tables, then fine tuned by hand.

 

well you see i have no idea of how to burn them or what i would burn them with.

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/promintro.shtml

 

It is my understanding you need a stock chip from a L05 Caprice to make your own chip anyway. You have to have a base .bin to start then you can "edit" that .bin. Its seen very difficult, but Ive never seen the GUI use to creat them, it may be easy, but dealing in 3d models, and such seems difficult to me and very time intensive..

 

ok thanx is it worth the money to go out and get the programer for the custom prom? Or would it just be better to go and get a Jegs performance chip for around the same price allrady done. What gains would i look at if i did the cusotm one compared to the jegs stage 2 chip? it will give me 13 hp so it says, who knows though unless you have tried one before.

Thanx

P.S. is there a way to make my sig come up automaticly so i dont have to check the little box?

 

there are many place online to downlaod a starting .bin file from.

as for the other part, yes it can be a little time consuming, but in the end the quality of tune you end up with is well worth it.

in a short time i have added 4mph to my trap speeds, and my MPG has increased to about 30mpg on the hiway.

 

What he meant, and you misinterpreted, was that the LO5 9C1 chip *is* different than the non-9C1 LO5 chip.... because the camshafts were different in those two engine applications and hence both the fuel map in the chip and power rating of the engines were different.

The passenger car LO5s were rated at 180 fwhp and 300 ftlbs for 1992-1993. The 92-93 9C1 LO5s were rated at 205 fwhp and 300 ftlbs. The extra power of the 9C1 LO5 was from the use of the L98 cam which had longer duration and higher lift. 1991 9C1 LO5s also used the same cam, but the Ypipe exhaust was smaller and the air feed to the TBI not as cold, so the power rating was only 195 fwhp. The 1989-1990 LO5s (i.e. your engine) were rated at even less power (180 fwhp and 290 fw ftlbs IIRC). See Sanow's book Chevrolet Police Cars 1955-1996 for the details.

Meanwhile, the passenger car non-9C1 LO5 for 1991-1993 got the same cam as used in the 305 --- i.e. the so-called peanut cam.

So it's not a "mythical performance chip" as you say -- but it is a good idea to use the 9C1 LO5 chip as the starting point for any modified TBI sbc because it is the closest thing to a performance chip that GM ever used on a TBI engine. If you search many other posts on this forum you'll see that most people here already uderstood that fact.

 

You should read the DIY dual snorkle article in the Tech Articles section here ( https://www.thirdgen.org ) and stop wasting your time with the high school-ish flipped lid air cleaner. Yes it makes more noise, and yes you lose power.

You are probably still running the stock 1989-1990 chip. I was going to suggest using the 92-93 9C1 LO5 chip but I think the ECM for 1989-1990 is different than used on the 1991-1993, so no joy. What does make sense though is for you to have someone program you a chip starting with the stock values for the 92-93 LO5 9C1 engine. Kevin Moore posts here sometimes and he's got a 93 LO5 9C1 and the equipment to burn-his-own. He posts as Kevm14 I think if you search for it. I don't know what's different or involved with burning a 89-90 chip vs a 91-93 chip, but he probably knows.



Bryan Herter (PCMforLess) does EEPROM flash programming on 94-96 B/D cars with PCMs; I don't think he does work on chips used for TBI applications, and if he did he is certainly not as knowledgeable on TBI-applications (IMO) as many people here. I can't say if CFM-Tech is good or not, but I do suggest you go first to the DIY-PROM board here on ThirdGen and do some reading. Kevin posts there too btw.

With you mods, you are seriously deficient in the fuel dept, so I bet you'd gain from raising the base fuel pressure in your TBI. There's a tech article here on ThirdGen on that too.

And btw, the rear end in your Caprice is 3.42, not 3.45. Code GU6 on your trunk sticker (the SPID). - Ken '94 9C1, '92 RMW (TBI)

 

While were talking about whos good at chip burning and whos not, Who do ya think would be the best for burning a custom TBI chip. I don't plan on burning my own at any time in the futrue. So who do ya recommend?

 

Thanks, but Ive already read all of that information. I have also learned what it takes to burn your own chips. PCMforLess does do chip burning for 90's and will do custom programing.

Im sure I am lacking in the fuel department. I ran this weekend and ran a 15.1@89.7mph Im sure my car will benifit from the ultimate TBI mods w/fuel pressure adjuster. They are coming this week.

Sorry about the typo on the gear ratio's. Im no doing the dual snorkle mod, becuase Im just going to buy a open air element with a few special mods to it, The Turbo City Air Flow Enhancer. As far as the flipped lid losing power I dont believe it for a second. I ran with it flipped, unflipped, and without assembly at all with no differences at all. Im sure in theory your right but in the real world it doesnt make a difference at all.

 

As I said - he's known for doing PCM work, and not for chip burning.



The ultimate mods won't help you as much as you might think because you aren't maxing out, flow-wise, the TBI yet. You need to go 300+ fw hp to start seeing the gain from the ultimate mods -- but they are free so by all means do them. The FP adjustment will help especially if you are running dangerously lean (which you might be).

That's the best time I've seen on a brick TBI modified LO5. http://www.dajimster.com has run 15.4 @ 87.9 with a similar setup on his carb'ed '88 brick Caprice 9C1 350, but I don't think he's been able to run in the cold weather we get in CONUS.... so he might be darn close in the right conditions.

I didn't mean that either fliped or non-flipped are good -- they're both lousy. Choosing between them, of course I'd choose flipped because it offers less resistance to airflow at upper rpm.

What I was referring to, and not clearly enough, is that ducted cold air into the filter housing will always work better than what you have now (either flipped or non-flipped). And it's not just theory -- it's proven time and again. The "flow enhancer" won't gain you as much as a good dual-ducted cold air source into the metal air filter housing. Try making a cold air fed dual snorkle air cleaner using the DIY instructions at the Tech Articles page, before you blow money on the flow enhancer. My $0.02...

To run 15.1 @ 89.7 mph in a brick Caprice means you're making around 250+ fw hp and 320+ fw ftlbs.... essentially the same as the 94-96 LT1 Bcars. They weigh 200 lbs more but they're also more aerodynamic -- so you're running almost equal to them. Your setup would run a solid 0.6 to 1.0 second faster and probably +3 to +5 mph in the quarter mile in a 3rd gen Fcar (there's the 3rd gen Fcar content btw) so your mods & postings are still worthwhile to everyone here.

There aren't that many people running low 14s with TBI, and you still haven't touched the heads (a 20+ hp mod), nor do we know if you've gone with dual elec fans (7-10 hp gain), nor bumped the base timing (5-10 hp), and you aren't running with a good cold air intake yet (another 5-10 hp at the top end). So you still have a handful of free mods that would push you well into the high 14s, and that would mean darn close to 13s in an Fcar.

Last point/questions: are you still using the stock intake manifold, and if not, which one are you using? TIA.

 

As I siad Im still looking and havent found anyone offering to do the chip, nor am I done looking to see who is making the better chips. I will look for Kevin though and talk to him.

The Ultimate TBI mods aren't really why Im working on the TBI its more for the adjustable fuel pressure, but since the TBI will be comming off I figure Ill do it all at once. Judging by the trap speed I think your right I am lean.

It was a nice night. The track was a little damp as it rained earlier that day. Temp was good. A great night for racing. I went to get some psudo base number before I do more mods.

I was looking into buying a Ram Air Box from Canada. Its a dual snorkle set up just well manufactured, and clean looking. I didnt realize the dual snorkle set up was a better set up. I havent seen proof either way. Ive been looking for the differences in air cleaners (HP or times wise) but the other mods are so different its difficult. I do know Im not keeping that stock POS.

I attached my time slip as I am detecting a hint of sceptisim. I checked out the Horsepower Calculator to. The results I got were slightly less than the once you posted. I think its sorta strange to be making that much power with the mods I have, you think I may be dealing with a freak?

Yeah stock heads, and manifold. Stock fan, standard timing, no tune. There is a lot more that can be done to get into the 14's. I have no doubt that its easily achievable. Some traction would make a huge difference, as well as so better flowing heads and such. Im just not sure how far I will go as its a Caprice, and I am looking to get a LS1 Z28 in about a year.

 

thats actualy a pretty impresive ET for the 60' times, and the trap speeds, my 305 run 16flat@88mph, when i cut a 2.3 - 2.4 60' (yes the track i have to race at is THAT bad, a 2.2 60' is a GOOD launch at this track.

 

I did pull a 2.0 but the run was a touch slower at 15.2

 

man that drives me crazy, the guy in the right lane runs the same traps as i do, but is abotu a full second faster (not sure which lane you were in)

i bet i beat him around and auto-x course though

 

I am sure you would hand me my butt on a auto X course. I may have konis on all sides and upgraded breaks, but this car while in the caprice world handles great, is nothing compared to a F Body

 

I am surprised that the stock TBI intake manifold allowed you to run that fast.

The 1/8th mile data is very good (better by 0.02 sec than when I ran my 94) but by the end of the quarter my 94 catches you (better aero, I was 2.3 mph faster and nearly 0.2 sec quicker).

The link I provided for Jim's '88 carbed 9C1 showed a 0.2 sec gain by using dual cold air feeds to the dual snorkle air cleaner intake. Said differently, he ran 0.2 sec slower without the ductwork attached.... so sucking in hot underhood air slowed him A LOT. I urged him to add ducting to the snorkles and he was thrilled with the results. If you are going to dump your stock air cleaner, then you may as well hack into it, add a second snout (sourced from a junkyard) and then duct each snout to a cold air source near the top L and R edges of the radiator frame. Try it, you'll see.

It's very well known that GM corked the hell out of their engines to keep the noise down, so modding the exhaust usually gives huge gains. I knew that was true on Fcars (plenty of evidence here) and I've seen that proven a few times on Bcars too. A 30+ hp gain with headers, duals, H-pipe and cat delete does not surprise me on a Caprice.

BTW 15.1 is such a good time on a 4000+ lb Bcar, and with really only a modded exhaust, that I wonder if the cam has been swapped. Exahust mods like your will raise the power a lot, but the timeslip you posted suggests a 50 to 60 hp gain above stock and even I don't think a modded exhaust is enough to get there. I know of one 1989 LO5 9C1 TBI Caprice (run by a neighbor of mine, same car as yours) that ran 16.6 stock and 16.1 after modding the exhaust. Do you know anything about the history of the car, and have you either reduced weight or weighed the car on the track scales?