online170

Just starting this thread. Im starting this Swap tommorow, as soon as i pick up the trans. I HAVE to complete this during x-mas vacation. So im hoping with all you guy's help i can figure it out. Ive read alot of the "search" threads, and preparing for this since august, so i hope im ready.

First off, let me apologize if i ask stupid questions, but first time im doing something big like this.

EDIT: I should also mention:
-1975 350 (0.030 over) (pretty sure its 1 pc rear main).
-750 DP holley, mech secondaries.
-currently backed by 700R4 (which is for sale $150 obo, slippy but works).
-Originally an AUTO car.

Enjoy the progress....

Heres some pix of what im starting with.


Edit (Feb 2010): When i first started this thread, i was a little confused about whether i wanted to spend the money. If you want to skip past that, start at post #16. Also added links to parts if you know exactly what you need, curtosy of robguitargod.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

You are really best off buying a new pre bled master / slave assembly from GM, especially if your slave is taken apart, i'd at the least go buy a new slave cyl.

online170

Heres the pix. Please tell me if you see a throwout bearing, and what im looking at in the first pic.

fire350tpi

i hope ur going to resurface that flywheel, along with a new clutch

online170

Yes i know, they will be. I just need to test the tranny right now,andi need to make a decision quick.

I have to install the tranny within the warranty period, and fact is, im missing parts right now.

Is there a throwout bearing in that picture?

EDIT:

I learned that the Throwout bearing IS on the pressure plate, i also learned that the T56 i picked up, already has a throwout bearing as well.

I was stressing a little bit this morning about buying the trans, because the parts arent all there, BUT i went ahead with it. The swap will resume as planned, many pictures to follow.

Im reusing the throwout bearing for now, it will be replaced with the clutch in spring or summer.

I bought a new Master/Slave prebled kit from www.tpiparts.net . It should arrive in a couple days.

I STILL need to know what that BLUE peice is, in pic 1, and where that shim goes, in the pic of the flywheel..

online170

Some more pix; More of the interior will be dismantled the next day, i still have to drive the car up onto stands, hence the brake and shifter parts left as is.

Removing Console.


Console Removed:


Better view of the brake pedal assembly (auto).

gary sanders

IF my memory is still anygood,I read somewhere the 4th gen pedels will not work in a 3rd gen,the gas pedal,clutch,brake pedal is different in a 4th gen the way it mounts,than our third gens.Dont mean it cant be done,but I read it was easyest to use the 3rd gen pedals.I havent tryed that ,so I cant tell you for sure,but I read that on a 4th gen site. I do know ,from your pic the mounts on the pedals you have is different than a 3rd gen.
As far as 4th gen clutch,everyone on the 4th gen sites say a 93 to 95 clutch to stay away from,and go with the 96 to 97 clutch set up,something about the 93 to 95 pulls backwards on the throwout bearing,I dont know just read that.Most said to use the 98 and up clutch set up,made better ,I have seen all the clutch set ups,but I couldnt see that much difference,I did read they was saying because of BIG power.
I did swap my GTA from auto to 5 speed,it took me 2 days by myself,but I used all 3rd gen stuff,I had reserched the T56 swap first,but found it was better to go T5 for me,I do know you will need a different cross member,the T56 trans mount is 3 inches back than our 3rd gen cars. You can moddify the one you got,if you can do that type of stuff.

I would have to see better pics of that shim,to tell you where it goes,I cant rember what side (crank side or trans side) ,I did read some dont use it,just look for a wear pattern on the flywheel,where it bolts to the crank,that should get you close.I think Gm used it to take up slack,so the ring gear on the flywheel would line up to the starter gear better.

That BLUE piece is the clutch allingment TOOL.So you can get the clutch true to the flywheel,then be able to slide in you trany,you will also need a PIOLET BERRING,it will fit in the end of the crank on your motor,if you dont use one,your car will have a bad vibration,it keeps the input shaft of the T56 straight and balanced. Sorry about the mis spelled words,
I know I didnt help you much,but I just wanted to let you know what I had read about the topic,sorry if I side track you any!!!
If you have anymore questions,I do know a little about this swap,I will help you all I can,blackbirdl98(gary)

online170

No worries;

Actually i read somewhere that the thirds gen clutch pedal didnt have the right amount of travel to engage a 4th gen clutch, i dont know if thats justified, but i dont want to risk it.

Youre right the 4th gen pedals wont fit, the top holes have to be enlarged, and the throttle bracket has to be removed. That pedal wont work with my early style throttle. So i will be making said modifications to make it fit.

Also, there is a bit more involved with switching from PULL to PUSH, i would need a conversion kit, and i would have to switch from a 1pc rear main to a 2pc. We'll see how that goes, i just need this to "work" right now, i will upgrade the clutch later. As you can see, it needs to be replaced.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The 4th gen pedals will work fine in a 3rd gen; all you have to do is trim off the gas pedal part.

OTOH, when I did the swap, I used my existing 3rd gen pedals; but the ball stud on the pedal is farther from the pivot than a 4th gen one, meaning that it moves the rod MUCH farther for any given pedal travel. The end result is, all of the clutch action is all the way up at the top, and the pedal is rather stiff. Works fine, but it's clearly not quite right. The 4th gen ones should work better than mine.

If your motor is a 1975 block, it is 2-piece rear main seal. The 1-pc did not appear until 1986.

Therefore, the flywheel you have WILL NOT WORK!!! You'll need the $special$ "swap" one, onyl made by a few mfrs. Centerforce 700107 is one such part. http://store.summitracing.com/partde...t=CTF%2D700107 That's the same one I used.

AFAIK there is NO WAY to "convert from pull to push". A quick glance at how the fork works will give you all the info you need.

93-97 are all the same. Once again, a quick glance, but this time through a catalog, rather than trusting what you've "heard", would be wise. 98-up (LS1) uses a "push" style; but there are other issues with that trans, involving the length of various things. But that isn't what you've got so it doesn't matter. What you have there is the same basic stuff as what I put in my 83; which was, a stock 97 LT1 T-56.

Yes you are quite correct, that clutch is USED UP. I got a Centerforce Dual Friction for mine. Some people don't like those, but they have always worked fine for me.

I don't see any mention in there about a crossmember. You will need one; your stock one will not work.

I also don't see any mention about the speedo. Your car is expecting either 2000 or 4000 pulses per mile, but the T-56 is set up to supply about 40,000 pulses per mile. Your speedo will be .... significantly wrong.

I would strongly recommend replacing that entire hydraulic assembly. You might, maybe, be able to get it back together to where it will work and not leak; but I wouldn't trust it.

Not sure what you're saying about "the first pic"? Looks like a set of pedals to me? Am I missing something?

online170

SOFAKINGDOM, PM sent.... regarding this...


Always the bringer of bad news sofa, not sure if im ever gonna get used to it .

Ok so the most worrying part, is that the flywheel i have WILL NOT WORK??? Uh oh... I kind of dont have enough cash to afford that right now, but maybe after a paycheque.

In any case, can you explain to me, why a 1 pc rear main flywheel will not work with a 2 pc rear main seal? Cant i just change the rear main seal in the engine, instead of buying a new flywheel? Or somehow modify the flywheel? I need a cheap solution, that flywheel is big bucks. Please advise.

Next, i had forgotten about the differences between the speedo, i will have to wait for that conversion until a later date.

I have a spohn cross member for the x-member, pix of that are coming up.

The first pic i was referring to, is the one at the top (maybe it shows up in a different order for you), its the one with the hydraulics. I figured out the BLUE peice is a clutch aligning tool, but i dont know what the rest is.

As for the hydraulics, i ordered a new system from tpiparts.net as mentioned back in post #5.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

That is correct: the flywheel you have there WILL NOT work on a 2-pc RMS motor.

The 1-pc RMS crank has a different diameter pilot from the 2-pc kind where the flywheel goes; so the flywheel has a MUCH smaller hole in the center. The bolt pattern for the 2-pc is correspondingly larger as well. It has NOTHING to do with the seal itself, as such; that is, the seal doesn't get in the way, or something like that. You can't really "change" that anyway. It's possible to get an "adapter" to allow the use of a 2-pc RMS crank in a 1-pc block, in fact they're fairly common, but not the other way.

Don't know of any "cheap" solutions. This is one of those "you wanna play, you gotta pay" type sitautions. When I did mine, I wasn't in a hurry; I sort of sat back and collected parts over a period of a couple of years; so I got one off of somebody that had bought it but never executed the job, and ended up having to ditch it at a SUBSTANTIAL loss. That doesn't come up real often.

Sorry to be the bringer of reality. OTOH, would you prefer that you coast all through the planning and prep stages of your project THINKING you've got it all figured out, and no one points out the flaws or overlooked details for you, then you tear the car down and DISABLE it, then you DISCOVER an "oh s***" kind of thing? Which that DEFINITELY would be. There's no way your car will ever drive again, until you surmount that obstacle.

online170

Well your absolutely right. I kind of rushed into this because i saw a decent deal on the tranny, but the swap parts are ending up costing near the same amount.

My swap might grind to a halt because of this, but i definately have two obstacles here, #1) TIME! Im trying to assemble this within the 1month warranty period, and #2) Funds. Full time College student, so u know how that goes.

Im gonna hunt for a 2 peice used Flywheel, which i probably wont find. If i dont have any luck with that, ill have the tranny dyno'd to test for any issues, to eliminate the "time" factor.

vbMike

iTrader: (2)

That first picture with the hydraulics. You set you bought a new set so the only thing you need is the blue alignment tool and the spacer directly above. It goes over the studs on the transmission and then the slave cylinder goes on after that.

Do you have a clutch fork and piviot ball? I didn't see one in the picture.

Yes you need to get that other flywheel because the one you have now will not fit the crank. I'm not sure what that piece is that is pictured with the flywheel. Some kind of spacer. My flywheel didn't have one, it was probably lost, but I bolted it up without and it worked fine.

Personally I like the 3rd gen pedals better but either set will work. I tried both sets. The 3rd gen set seems to fit the car better but has a stiffer feel and a higher clutch engauagment point.

If you have any other specific questions send me a PM. I've already swappped so been there done that.

online170

Alright, can you guys help me make a tough decision?

I found out the place that would have done the "dyno" is now out of business. No one else with in 3 hours radius does a "manual" transmission dyno. Im just gonna go through all the gears and turn the inputshaft, and hope the thing works.

Heres the tough part. I had the choice between rebuilding my 700R4 with top notch parts, (cost $1200 cdn). Seeing as how this was the going rate of a T56 at the time i decided to do that instead.

Thanks to UPS damaging the slave cyl, that set me back another $150, and buying a new pilot bearing another $50. So if i go for this new flywheel, im at about $1800 for this swap now.

DO you guys think thats reasonable? Im kind of doubtful now, because theres a little voice in the back of my head thats comparing a race built 700R4 for $1200 100% bolt in and go with a 1 year warranty parts and labour, versus, a used T56 for $1800 that will require another $300 in the spring for a new clutch. I can still return the trans and except for a $100 restocking fee, i get my grand back.

I REALLY want this T56, but the price is kind of getting out of my hands. What do you guys think? Thanks.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Pilot bearing.... nowhere near $50.... http://store.summitracing.com/partde...rt=SUM%2DG1700

I would leave the transmission alone, and just put it in. Think about it.... the car was just kind of driving down the street, when something happened, and it got wrecked. It was DRIVING. Meaning, it was working well enough during its last millisecond of function before it was pulled, that it was in use. It's a kind of transmission that rarely tears up anyway. Odds are, there's nothing wrong with it.

I think you should continue on. You ALMOST have everything you need. Just a couple more little items, and you'll be there. You're into it for near 90% of the total cost already.

Incidentally, it's alot easier to deal with the CAGS and reverse lockout solenoids BEFORE you put it in the car. For the CAGS solenoid, I used some oil drain plug that you can get in the oil drain plug aisle at VatoZone and the like, seems like it was something like a 22mm threaded plug or some such. For reverse lockout, I used a 30mm freeze plug.

online170

Thanks for the encouragement. I guess the answer im looking for, especially from YOU sofa, is do you think 1800 is reasonable for a 2pc conversion T56 swap?

As for the pilot bearing, it was actualy 23.85 at a local store, but theres a couple other costs UPS slapped on me, so it all adds up to the same. I see the summit one is cheaper though.


COPIED FROM A DIFFERENT THREAD;
If you know exactly what you want/need, check out this post to save on some $$$.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Well it cost me more than that....

T-56 (used)
Shifter (new, Hurst)
Flywheel (new, second-hand, CF)
Hydraulics (new, GM)
Clutch (new, CF DF)
Torque arm & X-member (used, virtually new, Spohn)
JTR modded ext housing for cable speedo (used)
A few misc items (plugs, bolts, exh hdwe, etc.)

I started out with a 5-speed car, so the pedals were already there.

I think I probably had $2500 in it by the time I was done. Probably would have been $1000 more EASY, if I had just picked up the phone and ordered it all.

online170

Ill be right around the $2300 mark by the time i get a proper clutch and VSS worked out, I have the rest.

SO i guess thats what it costs. I just checked my bank account, im just "shy" of affording a flywheel. So im gonna go ahead with it, i just gotta see if my dad's credit card will agree....

Ill start tearing into a car after i have a chat with dad.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

just a question for you, how much of the dash did you take apart to get a pic of the studs on the booster that hold the pedals on? there was soooo much wire and crape around mine that i could hardly see it, or even get to it for that matter to get it all apart, it was a total PITA, yours looks soooo easy, WTF

vbMike

iTrader: (2)

The automatic would probably be cheaper but it's all about whether you want to shift you're own gears or not. My T56 swap cost around $2,600. It wouldn't have been that bad but I bought my tranny condition unknown and after putting it in the car I found out it had a bad syncronizer so the rebuild cost me around $400.

Just shifting the gears won't tell you the whole story but that's about all you can do without taking it apart. My tranny seemed to shift fine but then I put it in the car and tried it only to find out that it wasn't fine.

Anyway after the rebuild the tranny shift great and I couldn't be happier. I wish I could say the same about the spohn torque arm. It's a good solid piece but makes too much noise.

online170

Well, i guess the general concensus here is, to not get cold feet. So onwards we go. My dad was ok with the credit card thing, so i will try to find used ones this weekend, and if not, ill order a new centerforce 700107. Sofa, and any others, Just FYI i found a site that sells it cheaper in NY, called J&J, ill call them tommorow just to confirm the price, but its listed at $345.

http://store.jandjspeedshop.com/prod...roducts_id=191

Heres another one at $356 for free shipping, but when you click BUY NOW, it takes you to a different websit.....?

http://www.places2ride.com/auto_part...asp?SKU=700107

Now heres some more pix as promised. But first off, 86TA, i just pulled off the cover to take a pic of the bolts, i dunno why, but i dont really have that much stuff there. Most of the wiring loom is tucked UP, anything hanging is stuff i installed. I just sorta stuck the cam in there. Maybe alot of it is removed? I doubt it though my car is decently optioned.



Heres a pic of Spohn's x-member. Not sure why it would be noisy, but it looks like a quality peice to me. Quick shipping, very quick replies and plenty helpful.



The LT1 Starter.



Heres what all the fuss is about.





I tried to clean it up a bit as you can see, but the grime is kind of stubborn. The throwout bearing is super rusty looking, so i think i will use the one thats on the Pressure plate for now. If anyone has a cheap replacement PN like $30, please let me know.



And finally the pilot bearing. It was the only one listed, so i hope its the right one. It fits like a glove on the end part of the input shaft.

vbMike

iTrader: (2)

You could try to spray it with brake cleaner to remove some more of the grime. Not a big deal either way.

Looks like you have the B&M shifter. Not the greatest but definatly better than the stock shifter.

When I got my crossmember I also bought the optional torque arm. That's what made the noise. Apparently you are going to use the stock one so that should be okay. I can't remember if the stock torque arm braket bolts to the T56 or if you need a different one. Might want to check on that.

Yea my car had a lot more wires under the dash as well. I'm just taking a guess but your car not have a lot of power accessories? My car had all power options so there were lots of wires.

Your're stock starter should also work incase there are problems with the LT1 starter.

I would not remove the CAGS and reverse lockout solenoids though. Just leave the CAGS in there and just don't hook it up. It won't give you any problems. As for the reverse lock out just wire it up to your break switch so you can put it in reverse when you have your foot on the break but not at any other time. It sucks not having the reverse lockout. It's too easy to hit reverse by mistake when shifting from 4 to 5.

online170

Hurst shifter will replace the B&M some time down the road. I went through all the gears last night, i found all 6. Feels like theres only 4, i kept going 1,2,5,6 so i couldnt tell. And took me a while to find reverse. Couldnt turn anysmoother i dont think, barely takes any power to do it.

What you see, IS brake cleaned, but it wasnt doing much.

As for the torque arm, youre right, i forgot to take a pic of it, but the guy included the mount, and bracket off his 95 trans am, so i should be ok for that. Ill include the bracket in the next round of pix.

As for power options, i have an Analog dash, i have power windows, power locks, no power mirrors, i have the rear hatch, and rear defog buttons, but no fog lights or rear wipers.

Decently optioned, but still missing a few power options.

Another thing i noticed while removing my console, is that the console is bolted down at 3 locations, two at the back (inside the glovebox), and one big screw/bolt that threads into the shifter assembly. That big bolt is the main reason the console is secure. Where would i bolt the console to after the install?

Will ihave to weld in a new bracket?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

online170, holy crape dude, i dont know why but i have a shat-load more wiring and junk under my dash than that, damn, thats depressing, it took me forever to get my pedals in and out.

online170

Alright guys, things went kinda slow today, wasted alot of my day for various reasons. But anyways, this is what i got done.

First off, amazing news, i found a new never used centerforce 700107 for $150!!!!!. Cant get much better than that.

Car got jacked up, keep in mind im doing this without any special equip. Just two jacks, a set of stands, and a pair of ramps.

Safety first.


I worked on getting my x-member off today, and draining the transmission of fluid. The driver side of the x-member was very "mc guivered", and i would love to get my hands on the **** that put an ALLEN key, flush mount bolt in there. 2 stripped allen keys, alot of heating and cooling with a propane torch, and a couple of pry bars later, this is what i got. The metal seems tough, i think a patch was welded in, hopefully it'll hold. WIll have a better idea when i buff it down.

ctmaro

I am in the process of doing a t-56 swap myself and was wondering if the older sbc flywheel will work. I have the transmission as well as a flywheel and it seems to clear everything just fine. so instead of buying the "kit" flywheel and using the lt-1 clutch and pressure plate, could i use the older flywheel and the clutch and pressure plate to match it?

online170

From what ive been told, NO. Because this tranny is the only, or if not, one of few, that uses a "Pull" style clutch. The older clutch wont work with it.

ctmaro

o thats why the lt1 dont have a throwout bearing then hugh. I guess i never put two and two together

online170

No it definately has a throwout bearing, just a different style of setup.

online170

Sorry folks, i was MIA for a couple days cuz of the crazy winter storm that im sure some of you are aware of. Not fun to work in -16 *C. Even the 5 shirst, 2 pants and 4 socks dont help :P Im only working on the car 2 hours a night, cuz im working full time this week. But when the break starts this weekend, i can motor along and get the thing done faster. So bare with me!

Anyway heres what happened. First off, two peices of good news, 1) i scored a new flywheel for $150, and 2) i scored a new pressure plate, throwout bearing and clutch disc for $130. SO my swap will be completed with all brand new components (except the tranny itself) for $1800! I think thats great.

Heres the progress.

Garage was gettin to cold, so i decided to finally insulate. Lets see how fast i work now. Dad purchased $40 of R40 "pink" insulation from home depot. I just stuck the pink in the slots of the garage door, and covered it with old blankets, and held it on with some old tables weve taken apart.



And ofcourse, what good is insulation without heat! Thanks dad.



Back to wrenchin. Here is me lieing under the tranny and engine. There are 4 bolts to remove the inspection cover. Then turn the engine over from the crank pulley bolt. Get a freind to hold a ratchet or pry bar on the crank pulley while you unscrew at the torque converter. Heres the final bolt coming off the torque converter.



Put the car in neutral. Remove the 4 bolts on the yoke, and the two C shaped retainers. Put a long screwdriver beind the yoke at the rear end, and pry to push the driveshaft INTO the tranny, and it will fall at the rear. Then slide out. Use 2 13/16ths or equivalent metric sockets and ratchets to get the 2 nuts and bolts holding the torque arm to the rear axle. Remove three bolts holding the torque arm to the tranny. (torque arm wont want to come out, leave it till the tranny is being lowered).

online170

Next is the bellhousing bolts holding the tranny to the engine. BEFORE doing this, you will need to disconnect the shifter linkage from shifter (one bolt). Remove any plugs (VSS and TC lockup), and remove the tranny cooler lines. I was lazy, so i just cut the lines off. Also, dont forget the TV cable connected to the carb. Disconnect, unlatch, and feed it through the wirey mess down towards the tranny, so its hanging free. Now for the bell housing bolts. There are 6, 2 are visible from below, and 2 are up near the top. The top passenger side bolt holds the dipstick on, and its a b*tch to remove.

Heres what i did, and you SHOULDNT do it. I removed the air cleaner, and all the spark plug wires, as well as the distributor cap, oil psi line, and any vaccuum hoses to access from above. When i got the wrench on there, it kept slipping, and i didnt have enough room to turn.







Here is the correct way. Lower the tranny quite a bit till you can see the bolts from below. Get about 3-4 long extensions, and a universal jointed socket. I used 14mm socket, but sometimes its a 9/16ths. Remove the top bolt on driver's side.



Then the one on the passenger side. This one is tricky. Im lying with my feet towards the rear of the car, facing UP. In the pix below you see the torque converter to the right, and the right flange of the bell housing, and the extensions burried in there.


Undo remaining 4 bolts the same way, and be very careful removing the last bolt. Jack the tranny up or down to make it level before removing final 2 bolts. Roll jack BACK slightly to clear the flywheel, and lower slowly. DO NOT lie under the tranny . Finally, dont forget to suppor the engine before undoing the tranny.



Its annoying to do, but rewarding when you get it out. What a wonderful site .

wesilva

iTrader: (35)

No wonder you knew so much about the Firebird shifter question I posted.

kuulkatdadieo

iTrader: (1)

Looks like fun

online170

Alright, today was the last day i work until after the holidays, so i can start putting some serious time into this.

However, the holiday shipping and postal service sucks as im sure youre all aware, so its also a waiting game now.

Today, i put the mess i created under the hood, back together...


Cleaned the tranny (yep it still looks the same), and painted the bell housing.


I also went and picked up the flywheel. P.S. i hate custsoms, did you know everything has a value? or it wouldnt be worth shipping? And you also need the value in writing. Boy they taught me a lesson and charged me $20 worth of tax and 1.5 hours back and forth to get a receipt from the private seller in writing, and opened and examined my package. Oh and they didnt even bother to check the truck that had a christmas tree in the back. God knows what we COULD have gotten away with. sheesh.

Anyways, here it is. Im just waiting on hydraulics and clutch now.




Tommorow im putting in the pedals and broken hydraulics i have as a mock up, so when the new stuff arrives, i just have to swap it. And if time permits, i will be drilling a new hole to mount my starter, and cut a hole in the floor for the shifter.

time for bed...

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

looking good. I usually try my best to avoid cold winter projects, but it never seems to work out . I finished up my manual swap this summer, though i did it with the engine out so bolting things together was a bit easyer. Have fun putting in the new pedals, that was the biggest PITA of my whole project.

online170

Ok so heres what i got done.

This isnt mandatory, but i like to pull the steering wheel when im working on the interior, makes a bit more room. You just have to pull the big nut in the middle, and use a puller to get it off.




Next up, i removed the two bolts holding the brake hydraulics to the brake booster. It required a 15mm socket, a wrench works best. There is a small rod in the booster, do not drop it, its just sitting there. once the hydraulics are unbolted, just move it out of the way, the brake lines will support it.





The nuts that come off these parts are lock nuts. They are oval, and SHOULD be replaced. Thats your call.


Next up is removing the brake pedal. I got three of the bolts off with relatively low difficulty. However, the TOP passenger side one was little more "fun". God bless the man that invented the universal joint...
Again you need a 15mm deep socket. I used an extension, a u joint and a 15mm socket for the last one. Took me about an hour to get out.

There is also a bolt that holds the pedal bracket on top. Its a 13mm. You will need a wrench to unbolt it. Its very annoying. (sorry icoudlnt get a pic of it, tight spot.

After this, remove the brake booster out of the way. Becareful not to drop that rod i mentioned earlier.


Out with the old, working on getting in the new. Few questions.... ill work on getting the flywheel on, while you guys answer.


alright, im stuck, i have a few questions before i hang the new pedals.

1) Where do i drill for the master cylinder? Is it the circled area? Are the indents only in the padding, or in the firewall too? Should i mount the pedals before drilling?



2) What do i do with this? I have read where the wires have to be spliced and all, but there was a vaccuum line on one of the sensors on the auto brake pedal. whats that for? And what do i do with this cable (next to the wire im holding in the pic, far left)? It allowed you to engage the gears only AFTER the brake pedal was depressed.

online170

Also, i need some torque specs.

1) Flywheel to crank bolts
2) bell housing to block
3) Tranny to bell housing
4) Pressure plate to flywheel
Also, do i have to do any special clearancing or adjustments when installing the clucth to check for travel? Is there any way to test it before i install the tranny?

Thats about all i can think of right now.

online170

Sofa; do you think i need to tap and drill that new hole? looks like its already there.



As well, i see now why i needed a new flywheel.

Heres a pic of my flexplate on the original 1995 transam flywheel and clutch assembly. The holes are centered, and all the bolt holes are "lined up", as you can see the center holes are different sizes, and none of the bolt holes are in the same place.


Here is a pick of the flexplate over the centerforce flywheel. As you can see, perfect match.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The master cyl location isn't SUPER critical. Most people in your situation use the padding as the guide, and it comes out fine. In my car, when I converted it to hydraulics 20-some years ago, I used the original linkage hole, just enlarged it a bit, and added the 2 holes for the MC U-bolt. Worked fine. Continued to work when I put in the T-56, subject to the stud/pivot distance mismatch.

The vacuum things on the pedals have to do with the cruise control. You can take your existing cruise vac line that goes to the brake pedal, put a T in it, and hook the other to the clutch pedal one; and then the cruise will drop off when you push the clutch, like it's supposed to.

If the 2 holes hold the starter in the right place, you're good to go. Your block must be about a 77 or later. It'll be REAL obvious if it's not right, because the starter will be about 5/8" away from the flywheel. If it even looks dimly remotely nearly possibly close, it's good. The 2 mount points are that far different.

1) Flywheel to crank bolts - 65-70 ft-lbs
2) bell housing to block - 30-35 ft-lbs
3) Tranny to bell housing - 40-45 ft-lbs
4) Pressure plate to flywheel - 35-40 ft-lbs

Looks like you're well on your way....

online170

OK well, i got the Ubolt holes drilled out.

What did you guys use to drill out the center section?


Tommorow, or possibly sunday, im gonna go pickup some new bolts to be able to bolt down the flywheel, then cut a spot for the shifter, and pull out that stuck bolt in the frame rails. Other than that its a waiting game, i cant do much with missing parts,

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

You could use a hole saw, sheet metal nibbler, dragout (punch) which is what I'd do. The hole is not round in any case, so it will require a bit of grinding or filing. I'd strongly recommend using some POR-15 and a shot of touch-up paint on the raw metal edges.

I would avoid drilling a bunch of smaller holes and "connecting the dots", then trying to smooth the edges; that will almost certainly end up warping and twisting the sheet metal, and looking like some kind of hack has been there.

There's a little bracket that goes from the pedal pivot, down to one of the U-bolt ends. That will locate the one U-bolt hole with reasonable accuracy. Drill that hole. From there, use the gasket that comes with the hyd set, as your template. Since you already have the U-bolt holes drilled, you may have to slot or enlarge them; no biggie, just use a large thick washer on the interior side under the nut.

Also I forgot to mention, there should be a switch on the clutch pedal that interlocks the starter, such that it won't start unless the clutch pedal is floored. Identical to the auto's neutral safety switch in function and electrcial connection. I think that might be what that big black thing is on the left side of the bracket.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

for the master cylinder hole, i drilled 2 holes, i believe were 1.25" close together and used a sawzall to remove the rest of the material and ended up with a nice oblong hole that fit the master very well, i also used the punchout on the padding as my template for that hole.

vbMike

iTrader: (2)

When I had to cut the hole for the master cylinder I installed the pedals first. Then used the bracket on the pedals as a template. I drilled the two holes for the u-bolt and the used a hole saw for the cylinder. The hole saw I used was the same width as the master cylinder. I then used a dremel to oval out the top and bottom of the hole. It worked well and looked nice. If the bracket on the pedals does not line up close then the template on the floor take another look because either the template had shifted for the bracket may be bent.

The two largest wires go to the neutral safety switch on the clutch pedal so that you can only start the car when the clutch is depressed to the floor. The next two wire in the harness go to the reverse switch on the passenger side of the tranny. Also tap into the brake switch and run a wire from that to the reverse lock out switch and then run the other wire from the switch to a ground. This way you can you put the car into reverse when the brake is depressed. I didn't want to cut the wire harness so I used spade connectors and filled them down until then were small enough to insert into the factory harness. They should stay in place, if not use tape or zip ties to secure them.

That cable is to prevent you from locking the ignition unless the car is in park. It is no longer needed. It goes over to the steering column. You can leave it there or remove it. It runs under the carpet and is held down with a bracket that must be removed so I left mine there. Just make sure the cable is in the proper position so that you can turn the ignition on & off.

If you do this then the cruse will disengage when you push in the clutch and turn back on when you let the clutch back out. It is not supposed to do this. It is supposed to turn off and stay off when you push in the clutch. Then hit resume to turn it back on. If you were to push in the clutch and shift into neutral and let the clutch back out the engine would red line. There are other situations where this action would be undesirable. The clutch pedal needs to have an electrical switch installed that connects to the brake switch to turn the cruse off when the clutch is depressed.

online170

Im stuck on hangin the pedals. Everybody sure the 4th gen pedals are a direct fit?

Before i went to hang them, i tried to put the booster through the 4 holes outside the car. I couldnt do it (aside from the small holes problem). I had to bend the bracket a bit to make it fit.

Next the FIFTH bolt, that is up on top of the pedal bracket doesnt seem to be lining up. When i go to put the pedals in, actually none of the holes seem to be lining up. When i put get the 4 holes lined up, the one above is not near its mark, i think i missed slightly with the master cylinder holes, but that can be corrected. I have a feeling the master cyl bracket is at a wierd angle, or its too far back or something, and its not letting me line up the other 5 bolts. I also noticed the manual pedals bracket is a bit "bulkier" around the area in the pix...

Which sequence did you guys follow? Im starting with the one above, then the booster, then the master cyl. Ive lowere the steering column, and im gettin frustrated. I dont want to pull the column out.

Please help.


Heres the Automatic bracket. Notice its just a 90* angle with nothing in the elbow.




Here is the 4h pedal set bolted up. Notice 4 bolts are bolted up nice and tight, the booster has no give or play.


Here is the 5th bolt that goes on top. Notice its not lined up. The hole crossed out by red isnt the bolt hole, its actually where the green cirlce is. The reason i havent hacked up the bracket yet, is i think something is misaligned, and can be fixed with just "bending" rather than cutting. Also, notice the 90* angle spot on this bracket, and how theres more metal to it...



Finally, heres the master cyl bolts. Notice the holes dont line up, not even in the padding....


Meanwhile heres the starter bolts, i dont think i need to do any drilling.

online170

Just gonna revive this thread, and give you guys a couple updates.

First of all, theres plenty of questions in the last couple posts, so feel free to answer them.

Next off, i lost my camera till after the new year, my sister took it to Toronto for a trip or something, so no more pix till it gets back . I should have loaded the couple that were on there, but i didnt think of it.

Anyways, since i wasnt getting any answers, i drilled the pedal bracket hole bigger, so i can bolt it UP top, and i moved the master cylinder holes over so i could bolt that up. I just gotta cut the big hole in the center now and install.

Yesterday i spent most of my day running around, trying to find bolts for everything. I needed larger bolts to be able to fit the crank with the added thickness of the flywheel. Hopefully the ones i picked are big enough. Most important thing is to make sure they are GRADE 8 or higher.

I couldnt get that broken bolt in my frame rail drilled out, so instead i tapped a third hole in front of the two on both sides, Spohn X-member has three holes, figured i may as well use them. The broken bolt is sticking out just enough that i cant focus the drill on it, but not far enough for me to be able to grip it with vice grips.

Ive drilled a hole for the shifter to pop through. I did this by bolting on the bell housing and measuring back 2ft (center of shifter), and drilled a single hole. Next im gonna trace an outline on the shifter boot, and cut it out. Problem i noticed with this, is you know how to measure "Straight Back" from bell housing to shifter on the tranny, but when youre under the car, youre not exactly sure where "Straight Back" is. So i hope i picked a good spot.

Im just waiting on my new clutch and pressure plate to arrive. The guy is really slow and couldnt be bothered. He checks his e-mail once in a blue moon, and isnt very helpful. HOPEFULLY it arrives...

Ill post lots of pix when i get the camera back.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

DO NOT use regular bolts for the flywheel!!! At least, not if you have come to like having feet, and think you would like to keep them. Not even regular grade 8 ones. They are a special hardware. You can pick them up (Mr Gasket) in the "performance" section at VatoZone or the like, or your local speed shop, or about any parts store that has "performance" items, or Summit etc.

Same deal on the ones that hold the clutch to the flywheel. Those are kind of weird though, they are unique for the T-56 clutch. Only place I know for sure to get them is GM, although ARP or one of the clutch mfrs might also supply them. They have a special "shoulder" that goes about ¼" into the flywheel, acts kind of like a dowel pin to positively locate the clutch on the FW.

Yes, it looks like you have the correct starter bolt hole.

vbMike

iTrader: (2)

The top bolt hole in the 4th gen pedals doesn’t line up. It needs to be redrilled off to the side.

I’m not surprised you’re pedal bracket didn’t line up with the holes you drilled. That’s way I mentioned in my previous post to put the pedals in the car and then drill the holes. That works much better. You may be able to bend that bracket to line up with the existing holes. Otherwise drill a new set of holes.

The starter should bolt up just fine. I wouldn’t worry about that.

If you want to get that broken bolt out use and easy out, they work great.

Just center the hole on the top of the tranny tunnel. Make sure the hold is big enough so you can access the 4 shifter bolts from inside the car. You’ll need to install the shifter and bolt in down from inside the car after you install the tranny.

online170

Well id show you a picture of it if i had one. The head looks pretty close, but you said the shoulder is different??? CRAP, i guess ill go shopping again tommorow. I still havent put it in yet, so its not a big deal. I made sure the thread is identical, and they look like quality bolts, figured a lock washer was sufficient to keep it on there. Is there anything specific i ask for when buying bolts for FW to crank for this flywheel? OR will any SBC 1980 and older flywheel bolts do?

Will the stock clutch to FW bolts work? I have those so i was just planning on reusing them.

As for the stuck bolt, yea easy out is next on the list, but i figure i can get away with it for now by just installing with atleast 2 bolts per side. Easy out can be done after the swap even during the winter months.

And Mike, dont worry i kicked myself pretty good about drilling the holes through the padding, i read your post after the damage was done. I was able to get away with bending the bracket a tad, i only had to drill 1 extra hole, and see how that works out. If the mastercylinder rod starts to hit stuff ill start from scratch, but it looks like the bracket is pretty flimsy and "leniant" so i should be ok.

I want these stupid pedals IN already so i can get to the real stuff! Hopefully ill be done today.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...part=MRG%2D912 They come on a card, hanging in an aisle in stores usually.

AFAIK yes the stock clutch bolts will work, if you have the ones that came with the T-56. Should be pretty easy to tell one way or the other.

online170

Ok so FINALLY the pedals are in. My dremel helped alot. I Cut the hole for the master cyl using a hole saw with my mighty little electric drill thats just about given up. I massaged the hole into a slight oval, and the master fit in very nicely. I sprayed it all with a bit of tremclad rust paint and covered it rubberized undercoating to seal it. That part of the engine bay never sees moisture so i should be ok.

To the driver side of the brake booster, is where i placed the reservoir. I took off the little bracket thats held on with 2 10mm bolts,moved the wiring over that was already on there, and fit the reservoir onto the bracket, and put it back on. Some new holes were necessary to drill, but it was really easy, 5 mins.

The new starter is bolted in place, no issues there, i just dont know how to wire it. Its layed out slightly differently. The old starter had 3 points. One fat in the middle, and two skinny to either side, I had a bunch of wires going to the big fat one in the middle, and a purple wire going to the driver side prong. (im sure this is wrong), but i havent had any issues with it so im gonna stick with it for now. How do i translate this into LT1 starter wiring? (two fat prongs on either side, and one skinny in the middle).

Hole is cut for the shifter, everything looks to be in place.

Tommorow, gonna put the flywheel on, mock up my old clutch setup (for practice), put in the T56 torque arm bracket and tackle the wiring. When the new clucth arrives, i am ready to put it all back together and start it for a "lifted" test run.

One more question, does the throwout bearing need to be greased before install??? Do i have to pack it, or lubricate the shaft or anything?