I'm finishing up my motor swap and will soon be ready to fire it up. I know I will have to do alot of tunning to get the most out of this motor. What I wanna know is will I be able to break this in on the stock chip till I start learning more about how to tune and get the hardware.

Specs: 88 Camaro 350 .040 over, zz4 cam, Holley Projection Intake and 670 Tbi, World SR Torquer Heads

 

It'll be WAY off, I'd be surprised if it even idled.

 

I would agree. I think once you change the cam your gonna run into big tune issues.

 

It'll run half *** , advance the timing 8 deg.

 

I think im gonna try to get a chip made until I get into my tuning and burning chips

 

Better get into it real quick then with that cam. I guarantee any chip you get made is nowhere near good for a ZZ4 cammed motor. And TBIchips is a huge ripoff, the guy is just trying to make a profit now, probably costs him about 2 dollars to make one of his "Stage 1" chips yet he sells them for 70 and now I've seen a gas mileage chip by him for 90 on ebay and a stage II for 120. He's just jerkin people around now and sees money in his eyes so he's cashing in on the community that taught him everything he knows, which is still quite limited. I thought he was ok when he sold them for 30 now he's just greed driven in my eyes. (end of rant)

 

damn and thats who I was going to go to have a chip burned just for me to start off on and then i was going to take over from there. What about a chip off a 350 tbi truck or car??

 

Now, now. . . :nono: He's simply charging what the market will allow . . . capitalism at its purest; the small guy making a living for himself.

I tried to get into it, but couldn't. I read and read and read until I was blue in the face, all to no avail. What he charges is actually quite fair, compared to the $300 other people demand for a custom chip.

What's with all the hatin' lately?

 

gunny how did your chip workout for you

 

It works pretty well, considering it was only one burn. I spent the 1st 7 trying to get it to run with 85# injectors, as suggested by some on here, all to no avail.

It's still rich, but she runs. I'm working on getting some datalogging help, so I can give him better info than, "it surges at idle between 1200-1400 RPM." I believe once he can get some ALDL data, the tunes will get better and better quickly. Luckily, this is not my daily driver right now, so it's not a pressing issue. It just sits in the apartment complex parking lot, only occasionally being driven when the weather is nice.

 

The big companies charging that much bought the rights to the GM code and learned how to make changes to it. This guy was on these boards for a while learning from the DIYers who do everything for free and give assistance to chip burners for free and release software for free. He then took their knowledge, information, and software and used it to make a profit. It isn't his to make a profit off of and his prices are not fair. Anybody with a chip burner and a chip could burn you something probably the same as his chips for a couple bucks.

As far as learning it, you have to go in with the right attitude. You have to think that you can learn the stuff. It is not that hard like everyone thinks, just learn the basic stuff. Don't worry about the fancy words and code talk the DIY prom board talks about a lot now, they're more experienced than the beginner. Just get the equipment and try it out, trial and error, you'll love the results.

 

I'm sorry... I have to interject here. You DIY guys do a really good job riding the line of sounding snobbish and sounding condescending.



There. I've said it. Here's why. Datalogging your car and burning chips might sound like a piece of cake to some of you but the reality is that is not for the average guy. In fact, messing with the brain box for your car SHOULD be intimidating.

Over and over I hear the same things: "Do the chip work." What this really means is spend the approximately 200 bucks for the equipment and go to freakin' school on the DIY boards for a spell. I imagine people learning about how to burn their chips do not get satisfied in anything they burn themselves until they have done it MULTIPLE times and spent months of time.

Am I right? My point is you will spend a LOT of time working at this when you start

I know why it makes sense to do this yourself or even find someone knowledgeable enough to do it for you. The ECM for a modded car is a lot like a fingerprint in that it is unique to the car itself. I get that. I still believe however that someone may have learned inbetween 1992 and now a few tricks to make the stock chip better.

OK... I intended not to flame anyone and I apologize if that is what it sounds like. I know everyone here (with a few exceptions) posts here for the better good. I just had to say this (possibly out of frustration).

 

KID

I have a 90 vette L-98 short block topped with LO-3 stuff and it never skips a beat and Im running the stock chip, however your cam is probably alot more radical than mine .... good luck

 

KID

I have a 90 vette L-98 short block topped with LO-3 stuff and it never skips a beat and Im running the stock chip, however your cam is probably alot more radical than mine .... good luck

 

We don't mean to. We have a far diffrent attitude than that. The fact is, we all learned at one time, we all struggled.

If changing a cam, and rebuilding an engine isn't (which someone like the original post has already done), than computer would SHOULDN'T

No one said it was easy, or there wasn't a learning curve. I guess the question is, do you want to modify your car, and have it still run?

Yes, this hobby is about time, and spending time. Wether it be learning how to degree a cam, or learning how to rebuild the bottom end, all the way to people learning how to change oil, to people learning how to tune. There is no free ride, in a perfrect world, the car would tune itself, but this world isn't perfect.

What are you getting at? That an out of the box chip works? Yes you can pick up some time on a STOCK motor with some chip work. Hell I'll sell you a chip for $100 that will make give you a couple of tenths at the track. I have dozens of them, that I ran, some with VERY good success. BUT, on a cammed motor, a mail order chip WILL NOT work. We don't say this because we have an attutide problem, we tell people this because many of us in the DIY community have already spent hundreds of dollars trying to get Ed Write, TBIchips, or name a dozen other tuners, to get chips, and they didn't work, or they didnt work well. Lesson learned, we do this because we are trying to help people not make the same mistakes.

Say what you want. I'll do the same. Some of us do take this stuff personaly. I am not posting here because I am getting something from this board. When TGO is gone, I will still be modding my car, I'll still have the knowledge. I'm here because there was a time when I needed to learn, and having a place like this where I could get SOUND advice, and not make some of the mistakes I made, would have been great. I'm sorry you don't realise that most of the people that are here answering questions, are doing this out of the goodness of our hearts, trying to help other. We ask for very little in return, all that anyone has ever asked, is for a little bit of respect, and for people to not take on an attitude that we OWE them advice.

 

Yeah don't take anything said personally or as if it were said condescendingly. That's not the goal. The reason we say to everybody to start burning your own chips is because your fuel injection motor will not run right at all after mods without the chip work.

It's a matter of trying to save people time, money and frustration over their car. Hell, I put headers and an intake manifold on my car and it ran HORRIBLE before I tuned in the fuel and a few other things. We're just trying to point out that chip tuning is a reality with fuel injection engine modding, it's not something to take lightly.

 

I really do apologize. The tone on my post could not have been interpreted any different than cynicism. Again, it's more a reflection of my frustration.

I just wish there was someone in my general vicinity who I could learn from. Folks who can datalog/burn PROM seem to be in short supply in the Silicon Valley -- Damn Beemers.

Anyway, am I hearing that with a stock motor an after market, out-of-the box chip might be worth a shot?

I really do appreciate the learning I gain here -- Dewey.

 

Trust me, I competely understand where you come from. There was a time when I was really frustrated, becasue I didn't quite 'get it' finaly, i took the dive, bought the stuff, and started doing it. Once start, all those posts that don't make sense, start to make sense.

Silicon Valley, you should be set for computer stuff. ;-)

actualy tuning my car turned into quite the thing at my office (I work at for a software company.) We had a whole bunch of software engineers, reverse engineering all their cars computers, and asking to borrow my burner. We now rotate my burner through the office, they are tuning Turbo Audi's, Fords, Bimmers, everything. It is quite fun.

I'd offer to help ya, but I am rarely in the S-Valley area. I'm heading to LA later this spring.... but that is quite a ways away.

 

Yeah, on a stock motor one of those chips might give you a little. But, I've looked at one of those chips in Tunerpro and the changes just aren't worth the price. They don't really change much of anything except maybe adding some fuel and timing on the top end.

That could end up being a probably actually, you might gain a little power but it could be too much timing for the motor and you'd never know it because the extra fuel will cover it up.

Honestly, the burning isn't all that hard it's just how you go about learning it. Read some of the intro articles on the Prom board a bunch of times until you feel comfortable with the basic idea. Don't concern yourself with anything else on that board. Once you get the basics in the intros just download Tunerpro a .bin file and an .ecu file and take a look at things.

Just start opening up tables and looking at how its all setup. If you have the burner make a few easy changes like speed limiter and see how it goes. You'll find out that its much easier to pick up on things that way. Just a suggestion on how to approach it all.

edit: looks like me and Dewey were posting at the same time. Dewey's defnitely better at the chip tuning stuff than I am but we're around here to help you guys out. Dive in with the stuff and we can help with any questions.

 

You are both nerds.

Don't go changin'.

 

My feedback and opinion is...well, mailorder sucks. kidcamarosc youve done a cam change, heads and all that, i think you have the brains and time to do a DIY prom. I did a tbichips prom and it downright sucks. I paid $70 to my door and it runs my car, but not well.

I have a 8063 ecm like you ('88 models) and so i tried running my 305 chip after i did my LO5 swap. It was aweful. dont even consider it to be a "until i get a good one burned" sort of thing. With those heads and cam youll need a better one.

Cadillac, im surprised you came back and apologized. I see your point and it wasnt too harsh if you ask me. I agree with you on alot of things because ive gotten the "just DIY prom" message too. But honestly between 3 jobs, an extremely intense school program and actual time spent cooling my brain off with social time, i cant sit and read about prom chips and burn...then test...then burn...rinse and repeat.

You cant deny that to some people a $70 chip that claims to at least run your motor is attractive. I do think its great that people on here are giving the knowledge to do it yourself...when you can do it yourself. Honestly some people just cant do it. I know people that will never be computer literate, ever. Thats often the case so no matter how mad you get at the those who mailorder, theyre going to do it because they feel thats all their capable of. But those that are sticking with it and need the new knowledge will hopefully for the most part be willing to learn. There seems to be a categorizing of if people "deserve" to be given new knowledge depending on if theyre doing their part. I think theyll just need to make the decision on whether to burn or not. Your opinions and insight are what are influencing those choices though, so its in no way a "failed" effort like some feel.

I dont mean to argue and i certainly dont want to invade this thread with a point counter point sort of thing. Im just trying to give insight as to why people take the path they do. Its like my old man whenever he talks to "average" people about computers...he scolds them, acting like theyre idiots and always says "if only you would listen to me and build a custom computer and not get AOL."

 

TGO goes down for a week and I loose my mind. I bought a TBIchip.com PROM during the outage. Should be here any day.

I'm going to try it, report back, and now it sounds like I'll listen to "I do told you so's" from the pompous PROM folks.

We'll see though. Odds are bad for me and now all my ECM related posts lately make sense. Brian strikes me as a good fellow so it may be that he'l work with me. ~shrug~

Damn I want to learn this stuff. Laptop computers are not an issue.

Avernger... where in GA? I grew up in Richmond Co.

 

I'm one of the believers. I spent an awful lot of time and money with Ed Wright trying to get my new motor to just idle !

I lost patience -- and dove in head first to tuning. It was overwhelming for the first few months - and no I didn't have anyone to show me the ropes.
Having said that, I believe the guys on the DIY PROM board can and will answer just about any question you can think of, and I owe the sucess of my tuning in part to them.

My advice, if you haven't made modifications to your car that REQUIRE tuning. Than leave it alone.
However, if your brand new hi-po street engine doesn't even idle at all, then your stuck in the same boat most people who start PROM tuning were. Left with no other choice.

 

I did end up buying a chip from TBIchips.com. I totally understand that my car will have not have the potental it could have by me doing the tuning on it, which I will. I just wanted the chip to get me started before I get all the stuff I need for tuning.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. . . on my 350 with a bigger cam and aluminum heads and Lord knows what else, TBIChips did just fine. Could it be tuned better?. . .sure, but you know what, my stock chip on my stock 305 wasn't worth a damn from the factory. I work 50+ hours a week, and go to school 12 hours a week, and I live alone, so all of the little chores that go along with running a household fall upon me, AND I don't own a laptop, so the money is well worth it for someone else to do it.

Here, I'll sum it all up:


DIY = you have time, the tools necessary, you don't have to drive it everyday, and you have some aptitude with programming

Mail Order = you don't have a lot of time, it's your daily driver, you don't have the interest, you don't have the tools and like me, and are failing Computer Science and Information Systems 2205

 

See those are the kind of posts that give people the wrong impression. Look at azvolfan's setup, he had a TBIchips prom and a dynotuned prom and it ran 16's. Don't take offense to this but there's always somebody that says something like that and "gives hope" to the non tuners. Then they make changes like azvolfan did and their car runs like horse ****.

I DIYed my chip and I don't have much time, I'm a full time student, now maybe I have some more time than you working 50+ hours a week, I can see that being a problem believe me. But, my car is a daily driver, I got a laptop for like 50 bucks and it took me like 4 or 5 chips to dial the car in. I don't do any programming and don't need to because that has absolutely nothing to do with chip tuning now because of all the programs out there. I really don't think you would think like that if you just got Tunerpro and opened up a .bin in there and looked through it.

It's a matter of opening a fuel table and saying ok, I'm running a little lean at some rpm and partial throttle. Then changing a number from a smaller one to a bigger one and seeing what happens. It really isn't hard, and you'll find that out if you just dive in head first at least with Tunerpro. I got tunerpro wayy before I got any hardware to do the burning.

Again, I'm just trying to say almost every heads and cam swap that were done without tuning the chip ended up running slower and that really sucks for people that drop money into an engine build and get horrible results. This is to try and save them from making that mistake.

 

They dyno tuned chip runs pretty good. And the car ran a 15.5 on that chip. But the simple fact of the matter is that I did not do all those mods, put in all that time and all the money to have the car run "fine". The only way to take full advantage of all of the mods is to get into chip tuning.

Then and only then will anybody who is will do to all the mods be happy with the results.

 

An adjustable fuel pressure regulator and base timing adjustment will get it to run alright around town and you can tweak it somewhat for WOT, but some area of the RPM band will be off since you more than likely will change the area where the engine is most efficient

 

Interesting thread, all I'll say is that if you want to play with FI you have to learn how to change things, which involves chip tuning. If you don't want to learn how to modify the system you have, change it for something you understand, but don't complain because we have the best car guy community here, the mustang guys would kill for a community like this.

I did the equivalent of changing heads, cam and intake when I swaped to FI on my monte, the stock tune wouldn't even idle. The biggest problem I see with the original poster's setup is the bigger injectors and the cam, those two changes pretty much leave the stock tune chasing it's tail. I would swap the stock TB back on for the break in, and then get tuning. Don't even take it out on the road without at least getting a reliable idle. I was able to get my car idleing and moving under it's own power in a weekend, and a week later it was what I would call car guy safe. A year after that, I consider it pretty close to perfect. If I did it all over again now I could have it perfect in 2 weeks.

 

where in Wisconsin are you?

 

Near Oconomowoc

 

waukesha. email me or call if you have any tuning/drivability issues come spring. something tells me you will be chalenged big time with that set up.

 

awsome....I am hopefully going to atleast get her fired up in the coming weeks.

 

Hey I'm from Hartland

 

now is the time to study up on data logging. i use winaldl. maybe there is a better program BUT that is what i used day one and did not check into other programs. if the car starts and idles you will be on first base. good luck.

 

you know i had tbichips do mine for me and i have a helluva combo,but with the first chip i received,its been great ,it was a bit rich till i remembered i had the fuel pressure cranked up ,once i lowered that it was perfect ,for me anyway ,like gunny i don't have a lap top ,christ i can't even find anyone to do any datalogging for me around here so i can send a fine and get an updated chip ,but i went to the dyno today and popped off a 206 rwhp and 310ftlbs on the second pull and the wide open A/F was dead on perfect for 90 bucks and i get 2 more chips ,i'll pay that anyday ,getting in the ballpark is good ,but when you can send a file ,let the guy see what its doing and he burn you anotherone thats just as good as paying $400 for a half day at the dyno and haveing some smuck tune your chip,i'll go for tbi chips anyday ,you just have to make sure you tell him everything you are doing ,just don't say ,i got a 350 and doing a head and cam burn me a chip.

 

For the same cost (or slightly more) you can buy the buring equipment yourself. If you have some basic knowledge then you can also get the car within the ball park within a couple of chips. Start out with a guess on the VE tables and use a mech. dist. type of timing curve to get the car going. I drove my car for the past three months on just an initial guess. Lost all the bin images I made in a HD crash.

Even if you dont know what your doing, you can bounce ideas of off other tgo members over on the diy-prom board. Others can help you get a first chip that is probably as good as what brian has. And, the best part is, this service is free. Probably the only requirement is that you give back to the community after youve learned the ropes.

It always seemed pointless to me to pay someone else who sponges off of the diy'ers to do it once when I can do it as many times as I want for the same cost.

 

great point. plus you get the added satisfaction of being able to tune your own car. that is part of owning any hot rod. an aquaintance of mine owns 2 custom build hot rods. does not know squat about cars. just drives them. that OK. But most hot rodders want to be hands on. like me. GTECH coming 4/2005 !

 

Reminds me of the old adage :
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man how to fish and he eats for a lifetime.

Same rule applies. If you don't plan on making any other changes, sure paying someone else $100 to avoid buying the equipment and learning whats required might seem like a good deal.
But, like most of us, we keep adding, building, and modding -- in constant pursuit of that extra tenth. We enjoy trying different combinations and don't mind the initial learning curve becuase it's one of the most rewarding things you can do.

- Ronny, my company programmes the software that the GTECH uses. If you have any suggestions feel free to send em.

 

For what its worth, to go after your pocket book again...

I have easily made up the cost of my burning equipment. I can keep how ever many configurations I want around. I have one that is soley for long road trips, its gets KILLER gas milage. I have one for playing around. I have another for when I use nitrous, I have one for just general driving. That is the kind of flexability you can only have by doing it yourself. I can run a full timing chip, then go to the track, open the bottle, slip a new chip in, and i have 4* of timing pulled out at WOT, when the nitrous is on.

I want to see brian do that, and give you 34mpg, all for about $150.

 

Look, I understand it's for some people, but I can't even get the stupid thing to datalog, let alone all the other crap. So for me, the $$$ is worth it. And besides, with the exception of some 1.6 RR's, my engine is done.

 

if your happy with it and you wont be doing any more mods, then mission accomplished. But, if you mod the motor alot then the burning equipment is a must.

 

You live close to me. You datalog?

 

I'm getting this strange sense of deja vu
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=260680

 

Umm yeah. Still no invitation to hook up.

Maybe there will be a Norcal meet soon, eh?

 

sent you a pm

 

You guys make a good case for the 'Learn to Burn' side.....

What do you do if you have a non 3rd gen car? I have a 91 Caprice, and have emailed a few places, only to find out they haven't got any info about my ECM.

I just bought my used laptop, found Winaldl, and want to get going, but I have to still buy a cable, burning equipment, and chips.

So who is lower South Carolina or Georgia, and wants to teach/share????

 

where in south carolina. I live in Atlanta but have an office up in SC its down the street from hawk's third gen store.

 

I am in Beaufort.

 

You have the same ECM as the camaro boys, just pretend you have a thirdgen, it's all the same. My monte thinks it's a 91 RS, it has the same injection setup, tranny, rims and rear brakes, poor thing is all confused. Some one should tell it it's not a sports car, lol