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I believe now that the "don't know" selection is the way to go for sure. Before that, I was chasing different issues that I just couldn't get a handle on. I would correct one problem and create a different problem because of the change. The manual does stat in some places that a change in some given areas will affect all areas of running and tuning and now with the very basic calibration selected the ecu now learns what your motor is and how it runs with your driving style. I've been driving it now for the past 3 days and each time I start it and drive it gets better, the idle is great, restarts are a non-issue and overall runs great. I have not tried wot yet since I really want to let it learn, but I have been increasing the throttle to eventually see wot. Gas mileage has definitely gone up, I would of run through a lot gas by this time but it has not, I will do a real world gas mileage run soon to see what it gets now. My carb I would get about 15-18 on freeway in 4th gear with the my 700R4 trans. I still can't believe how different the car runs, I was beginning to think I would throw the carb back if I couldn't get it to run. At 59 years young and somewhat computer literate, I figured I would figure it out, but using a laptop for the first time to do what can be done to these systems can be a little daunting for the first time programmer. Young people today that are hot rodding the newer cars understand this a whole lot more given you go to a local test and tune and you see laptops as they make changes to their cars without getting into the engine physically, I find that to be pretty cool. I just need to learn more about it and for now, I am going to leave well enough alone, or as I like to say, if it's not broke, don't fix it.
Well - going on 51 myself so even though I'm a little "younger" - I know exactly where you're coming from. I took two years of typing class on a "typewriter" in High School (Eons ago) and I'm still lousy at it.
Computers weren't even installed in any cars till a year after I graduated High School…but I like to think I have a basic understanding of what the cause and effects are when re-jetting a carb, changing timing etc are.
I aiso agree it's pretty neat what you can see on a laptop from all the various sensors screwed into various locations on the engine. You can get a bird's eye view on what the engine is actually doing while driving around…a big plus over the old school method of changing advance springs, adjusting vacuum advances and rejecting carbs in hopes of a "seat-of-the-pants" change.
-And I was OK with that myself until I installed this little blower on my engine…then tuning got complicated for me. Yes- I have the funds to just slap almost any LSX engine under the hood I want, but I already had too much cash invested in my old school gen1 stuff over the years before anyone knew what an LS was.
-Anyways, I realize blowers are nothing new, but I can't run a standard N/A timing curve, I need to "intake reference" my power valve for my carb so it'll see actual engine vacuum below the blower…I can't seem to jet my carb even remotely on the lean side as detonation very well may occur after boost kicks in….so it idles rich all the time. Trying to tune this the "Old School" way I'm used to doing isn't working…I'm giving up a lot of power since I need to be so conservative on jetting and timing. - I don't check on my gas milage on purpose…it's just that lousy. If I had to guess, I might get 10-12 on the highway…even worse around town.
It's my hopes that a TBI type system with a ECM will allow me a lot more precise look at, and adjustability of, my timing curve, fuel settings over the entire RPM range with much more precise control. But I'm not literate enough myself with ECM programming to determine a safe tune to build on later to get it up and running in the first place….that's the appeal for me of these "self-learning" systems. -And it sounds like it's doing well on your car!!
Well - going on 51 myself so even though I'm a little "younger" - I know exactly where you're coming from. I took two years of typing class on a "typewriter" in High School (Eons ago) and I'm still lousy at it.
Computers weren't even installed in any cars till a year after I graduated High School…but I like to think I have a basic understanding of what the cause and effects are when re-jetting a carb, changing timing etc are.
I aiso agree it's pretty neat what you can see on a laptop from all the various sensors screwed into various locations on the engine. You can get a bird's eye view on what the engine is actually doing while driving around…a big plus over the old school method of changing advance springs, adjusting vacuum advances and rejecting carbs in hopes of a "seat-of-the-pants" change.
-And I was OK with that myself until I installed this little blower on my engine…then tuning got complicated for me. Yes- I have the funds to just slap almost any LSX engine under the hood I want, but I already had too much cash invested in my old school gen1 stuff over the years before anyone knew what an LS was.
-Anyways, I realize blowers are nothing new, but I can't run a standard N/A timing curve, I need to "intake reference" my power valve for my carb so it'll see actual engine vacuum below the blower…I can't seem to jet my carb even remotely on the lean side as detonation very well may occur after boost kicks in….so it idles rich all the time. Trying to tune this the "Old School" way I'm used to doing isn't working…I'm giving up a lot of power since I need to be so conservative on jetting and timing. - I don't check on my gas milage on purpose…it's just that lousy. If I had to guess, I might get 10-12 on the highway…even worse around town.
It's my hopes that a TBI type system with a ECM will allow me a lot more precise look at, and adjustability of, my timing curve, fuel settings over the entire RPM range with much more precise control. But I'm not literate enough myself with ECM programming to determine a safe tune to build on later to get it up and running in the first place….that's the appeal for me of these "self-learning" systems. -And it sounds like it's doing well on your car!!
Yea, I am definitely old school and I will admit that I am very good at tuning a carb since I had no one to really teach me, but I have a friend who is very good at old school tuning and carbs as well as the new tech. My guess as to what happened to me was that when ever you close out to disconnect the laptop from the ecu it will ask if you want to save these changes to a global folder and honestly I never know how to answer that question. I've done it both ways and this last time it was yes and that's when the train wreck for started. All I could do was mess with enough while to the laptop to get it start barely run, so I had it pretty well screwed up, I had error messages on the handheld unit that would make computer geek cringe for sure. I just can't quite understand in's and out's of messing with the different parameters that are available. It is cool to toggle a datalog from the handheld unit and look at it but there is where I ran into one of my problems, how to properly sync up the laptop and ecu without screwing up everything. Someone shows me the proper way to do that and maybe then I can do a better job without messing it all up.
Yea, I am definitely old school and I will admit that I am very good at tuning a carb since I had no one to really teach me, but I have a friend who is very good at old school tuning and carbs as well as the new tech. My guess as to what happened to me was that when ever you close out to disconnect the laptop from the ecu it will ask if you want to save these changes to a global folder and honestly I never know how to answer that question. I've done it both ways and this last time it was yes and that's when the train wreck for started. All I could do was mess with enough while to the laptop to get it start barely run, so I had it pretty well screwed up, I had error messages on the handheld unit that would make computer geek cringe for sure. I just can't quite understand in's and out's of messing with the different parameters that are available. It is cool to toggle a datalog from the handheld unit and look at it but there is where I ran into one of my problems, how to properly sync up the laptop and ecu without screwing up everything. Someone shows me the proper way to do that and maybe then I can do a better job without messing it all up.
What the heck is a "Global Folder" suppose to be? -And why is it an option to save there? I see I'll have a lot to learn before deciding to get one of these systems. I've done a little visiting on the Holley forum, and saw a couple of complaints about their setup and help menus. Guess that's pretty common to have issues with any new-ish product.
What separates the companies with good service and bad service is what they do with the complaints once they receive them if they're legit. I.E - Do they at least write an addendum, or do they blow it off? Please keep the thread updated on your experiences with this system…sounds like it's treating you well overall….
global folder is just the folder that contains the different sections of the tune, fuel table timing table etc.
As for service, I did have a TPS fail/no good out of the box. They walked me through troubleshooting it and agreed without complaint that it was the issue and sent me a replacement at no cost.
Car is running great, but I do have one thing that bugs me yet and really don't know what to do or how to approach it. One of my problems before this last redoing of my ecm was the header on the passenger side would get red hot, but not the drivers side, and though I have changed the setup and it runs great, the same issue is there and I don't know what to do about it. I have a new non-contact in-fared heat gun coming that will read to 1022* F where my other one only goes to 500* F so I can see what the actual temp is between the two sides. I just went out and disconnected the regulator from the vacuum reference to keep a steady 43 psi of fuel to see what if any effect that has on the readings. If that doesn't do anything I will call Holley and talk to the tech people and see what their idea is. The car runs too good to be a major problem, I don't sense or hear any kind of detonation but it makes me uneasy to see the header like that. I will let you know what I find out.
a 500 degree bank to bank temp difference would point me towards a severe intake leak or and injector issue. I would definately give them a call on it to at least see how to troubleshoot the issue.
I dont recall specific temps on mine but i know the centers are hotter than the ends which makes sense since there are 2 ports together and heat soak will drive temps up. my number 8 is a little cooler but on my intake i believe it is the longest runner also. I want to say sitting idling i am about 400 on the ends and say 550 in the middle maybe?
Last edited by firechicken_3; 08-22-2014 at 01:38 AM.
Car is running great, but I do have one thing that bugs me yet and really don't know what to do or how to approach it. One of my problems before this last redoing of my ecm was the header on the passenger side would get red hot, but not the drivers side, and though I have changed the setup and it runs great, the same issue is there and I don't know what to do about it. I have a new non-contact in-fared heat gun coming that will read to 1022* F where my other one only goes to 500* F so I can see what the actual temp is between the two sides. I just went out and disconnected the regulator from the vacuum reference to keep a steady 43 psi of fuel to see what if any effect that has on the readings. If that doesn't do anything I will call Holley and talk to the tech people and see what their idea is. The car runs too good to be a major problem, I don't sense or hear any kind of detonation but it makes me uneasy to see the header like that. I will let you know what I find out.
Running with a header glowing is bad…I'd quit driving it till you get that resolved. My headers will glow if I retard the timing too much…but only one of yours is glowing so I'd take that off the table. Next is a lean condition…on only one bank, it almost has to be what Firechicken is saying…something going on with that bank of injectors. Either raw fuel burning in the exhaust, or too lean…either one isn't good.
Thanks for the replies, I am dumbfounded by it for sure since it is not something that happened with the carb on it and like I said, I have changed nothing other than switching over to the EFI. What's funny is that what is red is at the area just above the collector on the passenger side, the tubes are not from what I can see that is not wrapped nearest the flange. I will keep trying to trouble shoot before calling Holley to make sure it is not something else. I will keep you informed on what I find.
Is that the only area not wrapped? Perhaps the wrap keeping the heat in is causing a build up? Y pipe didnt get smashed causing a restriction for that side perhaps?
Is that the only area not wrapped? Perhaps the wrap keeping the heat in is causing a build up? Y pipe didnt get smashed causing a restriction for that side perhaps?
No crushed pipes, and the wrap has a gap from how the wrap transitioned from the tubes to the main collector. I can see it when I pull into the garage when it is dark enough without any lights on to see it. My new in-fared gun came today so I can check it out on Sunday. I changed the cruise target AFR from 14.0 to 13.5 so I will what that does. As I have said, nothing else on the engine has been changed other than taking the carb off and installing the EFI, timing has stayed the same and nothing else has been changed. I really do see that the engine is running much leaner for sure but what I find puzzling is that is only the passenger side that gets hot. I would think if it was an injector there would be some code but have found none. I am going to put the car in the air tomorrow to check what sounds like an exhaust leak from around the passenger side and check the connections from the header collector to the y-pipe and the band connectors tying the parts together. I'm wondering if that could cause any of the issues? I will pull the center plugs out again to see what they look like and if there any changes. Vacuum is rock solid at 17 inches with bouncing so I am convinced it is not a vacuum leak around the intake. I will keep searching till I find an answer.
One more update for you folks. I have finally got this thing nailed, I ended up fattening the cruise from the original 14.0 down to 12.5, the idle down to 13.5, and WOT to 12.0, changed my vacuum advance from ported to full manifold vacuum which made me re-adjust my throttle to get to my target rpm of 870 and wow does thing run great. There is much debate ported versus full manifold vacuum but from everything I have read by various engineers, and such, says either one is acceptable, you have to find what your particular engine likes and use it. With the carb, it liked the ported better but this EFI really likes the full manifold vacuum. Did my first smokey burnout this morning, stuck my foot to the brake and went not quite 2/3 throttle, let go of the brake and from first to second gear it boiled the tires till I left off the gas, the smell of rubber does a car guy good. I talked with a guy who works with EFI every day and he told me that I was on the right track with fattening up the AFR for an engine such as mine and he said he wouldn't hesitate to knock the AFR down 12.0 at cruise and 11.5 for WOT. He said drive and see how it acts, at this point I am leaving it alone. No more header glow and temps are down so I feel it is pretty darn good.
So, firechicken, how's the car running? I've been tweaking and trying different settings right now, car runs great, I'm glad I fattened up the mixtures, no more red headers and I feel the car still gets better mileage compared to the carb. WOT is quite amazing, just no bog or hesitation at all. Have you tried running at the strip to see what your times are compared to the carb? Just thought I would pull this thread back up to see what's been happening.
Good to hear you are happy with yours CC, I'm running good. I saved the tune that I started with and had run up through oh probably end of July/early August and started over fresh aiming a little more towards power than economy just to see. The human dyno is pretty happy overall.
As for running it down the dragstrip, I made a couple passes a couple months ago for fun and it was actually slower than previous passes with the carb. It felt like it ran out of power and fell flat 4500rpm plus that day, it was pretty hot and humid if I recall. Our local track has their brack finals tomorrow and a couple friends are running so I will be there and might run it in the trophy class, which is basically a run anything bracket race. Weather should be alot nicer and I have it far fatter on the WOT end of things now.
One thing to note, I can't blame the EFI for the car slowing down at the strip because the last time it was run prior was with a totally different exhaust system of shorty hedmans a single 3 inch intermediate and a Flow tech Terminator factory style muffler... The current exhaust is longtube hedmans, and true dual 2.5in to the bumper. Current mufflers are Classic chambered exhaust chambered mufflers that are basically a glasspack with no packing that is pinched into 3 chambers. They sound really raw and bad *** to the point that I had to add noise reducing inserts in the collectors to take the raspy edge off and keep myself sane driving the car. I fear the extra restriction of these http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...76247554,d.aWw may hinder wide open power under load and I'm contemplating doing something different over the winter.
Good to hear you are happy with yours CC, I'm running good. I saved the tune that I started with and had run up through oh probably end of July/early August and started over fresh aiming a little more towards power than economy just to see. The human dyno is pretty happy overall.
As for running it down the dragstrip, I made a couple passes a couple months ago for fun and it was actually slower than previous passes with the carb. It felt like it ran out of power and fell flat 4500rpm plus that day, it was pretty hot and humid if I recall. Our local track has their brack finals tomorrow and a couple friends are running so I will be there and might run it in the trophy class, which is basically a run anything bracket race. Weather should be alot nicer and I have it far fatter on the WOT end of things now.
One thing to note, I can't blame the EFI for the car slowing down at the strip because the last time it was run prior was with a totally different exhaust system of shorty hedmans a single 3 inch intermediate and a Flow tech Terminator factory style muffler... The current exhaust is longtube hedmans, and true dual 2.5in to the bumper. Current mufflers are Classic chambered exhaust chambered mufflers that are basically a glasspack with no packing that is pinched into 3 chambers. They sound really raw and bad *** to the point that I had to add noise reducing inserts in the collectors to take the raspy edge off and keep myself sane driving the car. I fear the extra restriction of these http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...76247554,d.aWw may hinder wide open power under load and I'm contemplating doing something different over the winter.
I know what you mean about the falling flat at about 4500rpm, then I changed for the power and fattened up the target AFR after talking to a guy who works with EFI everyday both factory and aftermarket and he said with the engine I built it will be much happier with it and I am running the full manifold vacuum and my total timing is 44* @ 3000 rpm, car loves it and once I fattened up the EFI no more falling flat, it just goes like crazy to the shift lite which is set for 6300 rpm. I think you fatten up your setup you will see power come back up as well as your times. I haven't been down the track with my car, but I tell the difference by the ole' seat of the pants that power is up and the throttle response is great. I went back out to try it today after changing a couple of parameter concerning the AIC and how it reacts, I like the change. I'm so close but I haven't plugged my laptop back into it since my last go round was disastrous and had to start over from scratch.
I appreciate you guys posting this info here. I am saving up to buy this system for my car, should have it by next summer.
Any regrets with the system or anything you'd do different if you were to do it again?
I have no regrets at all, just wish I better understood the whole laptop thing, but I am learning. For now, I am just using the handheld unit that came with the system and can honestly say it works very well especially for the novice such as myself. I think it was some of the best money spent for the car. I am really happy that went with new stock fuel system for my car, new tank, hanger assembly, and Bosch pump, works great and I am more than happy with this setup. I would definitely do it again and really happy that I chose the Holley system.
I love my Avenger EFI. I'm just not sure why you guys don't let the ECM control timing. I like being able to adjust air/fuel AND timing from the handheld.
Only thing I would do differently is would have gone with an intank pump from the start. My sending unit is fubar, claimed i had gone something like 175miles and still had close to 3/4 tank left. So this winter is new sending unit, and intank pump probably.
AO I do have my timing ECU controlled, its nice to let it have what it wants to idle and for it to still startup without kicking back let alone the control over the rest of the range
I love my Avenger EFI. I'm just not sure why you guys don't let the ECM control timing. I like being able to adjust air/fuel AND timing from the handheld.
I will eventually try it, but for now, I just want to have the fuel injection working properly first. It would help me a lot if I understood what to do with my laptop hooked to it, but I don't and until I can learn more about that I don't want to make things anymore difficult than they are for me personally. I have no doubt that it is the way to go, but I'm not ready to make that leap yet.
Talked to Holley tech this afternoon and told him what I am chasing at this time which is when I go from park and into gear, it would drop the idle to almost stall but would recover and at times it would do the same thing when it would downshift from 2nd to 1st gear when coming to a stop. He said that it sounds like the idle AFR target needs richened since it sounded like it was going lean and the next thing to try if that doesn't do it completely would be to change the AIC position when idling from 10-15% instead of the 2-10% the manual calls for. I did the idle richen and I will see what that does tomorrow. I richened the cruise to 12.0 and WOT to 11.0 a week or so ago and the engine loved that.
slightly fatter idle will probably get it for you, i had a similar issue dropping out of gear from cruise rpm with my manual trans.
A side note to my previous post, I am headed to my garage after this post to remove those noise reducing inserts I linked above. I did the math on the open area for airflow and the way mine are configured only equates to a 1.5in pipe worth of flow area, Best case scenario you can make them flow just shy of a 2.25in pipe. The collector of the header is a terrible place to choke the motor like that, especially with an overlapping cam trying that already trys to suck exhaust back in.
I have no idea why I never thought this through when I got them a couple years ago but to be honest with the little 650cfm carb they never seemed to hinder things. But now with the ability to shove 900+ cfm into the intake its gotta have somewhere to go. The high load high RPM laziness seems to prove it so I'm gonna see what happens.
It should be interesting to see how much the tune needs to be messed with afterwards.
Only thing I would do differently is would have gone with an intank pump from the start. My sending unit is fubar, claimed i had gone something like 175miles and still had close to 3/4 tank left. So this winter is new sending unit, and intank pump probably.
AO I do have my timing ECU controlled, its nice to let it have what it wants to idle and for it to still startup without kicking back let alone the control over the rest of the range
Thanks firechicken, the car originally had TPI, but I plan to replace the pump anyway. I'm just afraid that when I drop the tank I'll not like what I see and end up spending more to recondition the tank, thus slowing my build down further.
Doesn't make for a happy wife, this started as an "it's only a $5000 car and everything is OK on it," now she wants to know when the spending will end. I can't bear to tell her it won't
Thanks firechicken, the car originally had TPI, but I plan to replace the pump anyway. I'm just afraid that when I drop the tank I'll not like what I see and end up spending more to recondition the tank, thus slowing my build down further.
Doesn't make for a happy wife, this started as an "it's only a $5000 car and everything is OK on it," now she wants to know when the spending will end. I can't bear to tell her it won't
FYI, if you go to Rock Auto you can replace everything, tank, sending/pump holder assembly, and a new fuel pump for about 350.00. That's what I have in mine when I bought them this spring. My wife asked me one time years ago when it would be finished and I told her with a hot rod, it never does. You will always be looking at refreshing or updating things over the years if you hang onto it as long as I have which is 30 years this year.
slightly fatter idle will probably get it for you, i had a similar issue dropping out of gear from cruise rpm with my manual trans.
A side note to my previous post, I am headed to my garage after this post to remove those noise reducing inserts I linked above. I did the math on the open area for airflow and the way mine are configured only equates to a 1.5in pipe worth of flow area, Best case scenario you can make them flow just shy of a 2.25in pipe. The collector of the header is a terrible place to choke the motor like that, especially with an overlapping cam trying that already trys to suck exhaust back in.
I have no idea why I never thought this through when I got them a couple years ago but to be honest with the little 650cfm carb they never seemed to hinder things. But now with the ability to shove 900+ cfm into the intake its gotta have somewhere to go. The high load high RPM laziness seems to prove it so I'm gonna see what happens.
It should be interesting to see how much the tune needs to be messed with afterwards.
I'm hoping that it does, it worked very well with the cruising and WOT so it's worth a shot. Keep us informed on what it did for you when you are done. That's the ole' live and learn thing with hot rodding, done a few things with this car that when I look back, I ask myself, "why did you do that or buy that?" The weather is going to be nice here tomorrow so I plan on short drive to go get a couple of gallons of race gas to mix in with the 93 octane and then top it off to get ready for winter. Still have to get some gas treatment to run through the fuel system before storing.
FYI, if you go to Rock Auto you can replace everything, tank, sending/pump holder assembly, and a new fuel pump for about 350.00. That's what I have in mine when I bought them this spring. My wife asked me one time years ago when it would be finished and I told her with a hot rod, it never does. You will always be looking at refreshing or updating things over the years if you hang onto it as long as I have which is 30 years this year.
I don't mean to take this thread off topic, but one last question. Did you get the Spectra or the Dorman tank, because I've read a lot of bad things about the Spectra quality.
I don't mean to take this thread off topic, but one last question. Did you get the Spectra or the Dorman tank, because I've read a lot of bad things about the Spectra quality.
It was the Spectra. The only thing I did was to bend the filler neck up some to get it centered in the opening of the body. No big deal.
Fattened the idle AFR target from the 13.5-12.5 that took care of the almost stalling when going into gear from park as well when I come to a stop and the trans shifts back to 1st. I love this Holley system.
CC,
Do you have an actual part number for the pump you used? I'm switching to intank due to a failed gauge sending unit, and trying to find a OE replacement pump that is up to the task. I know you said Bosch up there somewhere, but the one I see for a TPI Camaro is only like 155lph which falls pretty short for the Terminators suggested requirement of 400lb/hr which is around 250lph.
CC,
Do you have an actual part number for the pump you used? I'm switching to intank due to a failed gauge sending unit, and trying to find a OE replacement pump that is up to the task. I know you said Bosch up there somewhere, but the one I see for a TPI Camaro is only like 155lph which falls pretty short for the Terminators suggested requirement of 400lb/hr which is around 250lph.
The part number is Bosch #69218 which is listed as the OE pump upgrade. When I talked to the tech guys from Holley before buying the pump I told them which pump I would use and they said it was fine, it hasn't had any problems keeping up with my engine. My fuel system has been a zero problem area for me and before parking for the winter, I made just a couple of changes to fatten up mixtures per the advice from a fellow I know that works with fuel injection and the Holley tech person that was helping me. Merry Christmas to you.
Ok, thats the one I looked up. Good to know that they endorsed it at Holley. I like having readily availible parts on the car because I really take pride in retaining the drive it anywhere status, and to me that means its needs to be fixable regardless of where I am. So far I continue to be thrilled with the system, I put almost 5000 miles on the car this season. I have been researching additional tuning tweaks to handle a couple trouble spots and to get the most I can from it. Can't wait untill spring.
Ok, thats the one I looked up. Good to know that they endorsed it at Holley. I like having readily availible parts on the car because I really take pride in retaining the drive it anywhere status, and to me that means its needs to be fixable regardless of where I am. So far I continue to be thrilled with the system, I put almost 5000 miles on the car this season. I have been researching additional tuning tweaks to handle a couple trouble spots and to get the most I can from it. Can't wait untill spring.
Happy Holidays.
Yea, I am looking forward to the new driving season as well and hopefully the gas prices will stay low for this summer although I wouldn't bet on it. I bought some new sub-frame connectors from UMI to replace the ones that I put on nearly 20+ years ago that are really not that good given what is out there today. Also going to get the hood painted this winter to complete my projects that I had planned.
I called Holley today about some things related to controlling electric fans, and questioned them about the fuel pump issue. The guy I talked to today said yeah that pump is fine for 250hp but he wouldn't recommend it for the 400hp range. Food for thought, not sure who you talked to.
I have the UMI subframes myself that are getting installed in the next couple weeks, very nice sturdy looking pieces. Doors are off the car now getting hinge pins replaced first. Going to do the fuel pump and sending unit along with a few other little maintenance things, and wrap it up untill after Power Tour in June. After that barring anything unforeseen, it comes apart to get bodywork done finally.
For the sake of adding info to this as a resource.
I think I did find a factory pump with advertised specs that meet the demands set forth by Holley. AC Delco EP381, this is the Vortec pump used up until 98 when they switched to the modular bucket style. I am reading free flow rates in the 50-60 gph range and one listing at 80gph, this puts them at or above 255lph called out for Terminator. The fuel pressure in those Vortec systems is right at 60psi so thats not an issue. Should be a direct fit, and is availible for about $65 on Rockauto, half the money of a walbro 255.
Good to know the OE TPI replacement hasn't caused you any grief regardless of its ratings.
For the sake of adding info to this as a resource.
I think I did find a factory pump with advertised specs that meet the demands set forth by Holley. AC Delco EP381, this is the Vortec pump used up until 98 when they switched to the modular bucket style. I am reading free flow rates in the 50-60 gph range and one listing at 80gph, this puts them at or above 255lph called out for Terminator. The fuel pressure in those Vortec systems is right at 60psi so thats not an issue. Should be a direct fit, and is availible for about $65 on Rockauto, half the money of a walbro 255.
Good to know the OE TPI replacement hasn't caused you any grief regardless of its ratings.
Yea, it has been fine so far, and maybe it would not be able to keep up if I was doing a top speed such as road racing or anything where you would need wot for a long period of time. I'm not ready to pull that tank out again anytime soon that's for sure.
CC, what was different about the new fuel tank? does it actually have baffles and stuff in it or did you do it just so it was new?
I ask because my tank appears to be in good shape from the outside, and currently running the external pump I have run it pretty empty without starvation issues. With the new sending unit and going to intank pump, I'm wondering if I really need to order a tank or not. I have been in an injected f-body tank but it was about 8 years and way to many repairs ago to remember.
I don't know if there are any baffles or if it is the way the tank is made, but I do know that there are 2 different part numbers for those with or without EFI. If you haven't had any problems before, I don't think you should have problems with your tank. I just figured since my tank was a little long in the tooth, so to speak, that I may as well get everything new so there would be no issue with dirt or debris from the old tank. Was your car originally EFI or was it the computer controlled carb? Mine was an original carb car so that also helped me with my decision on a new tank. As I understand it, the tanks for EFI are just a little different but I can't say for certain that it is baffled. I'm ready for spring!!
I am originally a carb v6 car. I will probably pull it down then order parts. As much other money as has been dumped in the car whats another $175.
Got my subframes done this last weekend, next up is the sending unit/pump/tank. Then MAYBE put cruise back on the car. Power Tour the first week of June, we will be running the first 3 days at least.
That would be cool for sure, doing a leg of Power Tour, I haven't yet done that and the car is getting to the point where it should be good to go on a leg of the tour. The year they started in Cleveland Ohio I was at the cruise but was unable to have the car ready for any type of trip since I had a lot of things going on with the car at the time. Would love to do it though. I'm the same way, I have put sooo much money in this car over the past 25 years it's unreal especially the past 5 years with a new motor, trans, wheels, tires, EFI and lots of aftermarket suspension parts as well as a C-5 Vette brake upgrade. I get the hood painted this winter and the new sub-frame connectors welded and I will be good to go. I think you are doing the right thing in putting in a new tank, leave nothing to chance, that is what I try to do with any upgrade.
Was shopping Amazon for some other stuff and through the powers that are the internet it showed me sending units and pumps and so on. I found all the same items i was planning from Rock Auto, Spectra tank and sending unit, and an AC Delco pump for vortec applications that can do 250lph+ at our pressure all for $315 shipped. We have an Amazon prime account so shipping is all free. I also found the cruise control unit there for an excellent price but haven't pulled the trigger just yet though I should based on price. We did my dads Nova last year and it works great.
Power Tour was very cool, we went to Bettendorf last year and just looked, then the next day was the Bettendorf to Dells run and we started that from home which was right along the official route. Whoever planned traffic into and out of the Dells was a moron so there was a massive 7 mile backup because they were using 1 way in and 1 way out of about 7 availible for that particular resort. It was worth it ride in a nonstop flow of classics, rods, and everything else imaginable.
As for making sure your car is ready for it... I always used to worry about long trips but when I stop and think about how many miles get stacked on the thing around home... Long trips become a drop in the bucket. Last year for that leg a guy from work broke out his 21k mile 1980 Camaro Z-28 inherited from his dad passing due to cancer the prior fall. The car had seen less than 200 miles in the last 12 years since having been repainted due to dad waxing the bejesus out of it. We had a trouble free uneventful trip and he feels like the car is really his now.
Bottom line enjoy your ride in whatever way you want, I know what you mean about all the money poured into these things. I have only been at mine for 16 years, and I still need the body fixed up and interior.
Last edited by firechicken_3; 01-08-2015 at 09:59 AM.
That is one very nice looking camaro for sure. I figure one of my grandkids would end up with the car if they take an interest in the hobby, that way they could enjoy it as much as I have over the years. I do enjoy working on it, fixing the challenges that arise and the things I change to make it better or to change the looks. You got a real good price for all the items you listed and I may even buy one of those pumps you bought for a spare should mine not work out or die. What part number is it?
The pump I ordered is EP381 it was used up to 97 in vortec applications 98 they switched to a modular combo as part of the plastic tank movement. I paid just shy of $40.
The Camaro is very nice, still has the factory 8 track. The Nova has been a 13yr project for me and dad, I spent my morning pricing out parts to put a Terminator on it this spring and an electric fan setup. It has a mild 355, has a 700r4, 3.73s and dakota digital cruise control. Its a fantastic comfortable cruiser, and gets close to 20mpg with the carb currently. Terminator will make it outstanding.
The pump I ordered is EP381 it was used up to 97 in vortec applications 98 they switched to a modular combo as part of the plastic tank movement. I paid just shy of $40.
The Camaro is very nice, still has the factory 8 track. The Nova has been a 13yr project for me and dad, I spent my morning pricing out parts to put a Terminator on it this spring and an electric fan setup. It has a mild 355, has a 700r4, 3.73s and dakota digital cruise control. Its a fantastic comfortable cruiser, and gets close to 20mpg with the carb currently. Terminator will make it outstanding.
Sounds like a really nice package you have there and it will really help the mpg's for sure. I have been amazed at how much better my mpg's seem to be. I haven't officially checked but I do know with the driving I normally do how long the gas will last and now with EFI it is much better. This summer I will get a real number to post up. My car had the same setup as your Camaro has in it, 355, 700R4, and 3.73 gears until I pulled the 355 for the 406 I built. Not sure when I will try the letting the ECU control the timing, probably not this year, I will get much more driving time with the EFI only.
I'm getting closer! I've got most of the parts now and will be pulling the old block out to set the new one in this summer. I quickly scanned over the 3 pages here and didn't see the answer. Did any of you have issues with OEM fuel line size? My 89 Camaro originally had TPI and I'm not sure if I need to drop another $100 on a new fuel line from the tank to the regulator or if the OEM lines are sized properly for the Terminator EFI?
OEM lines should be 3/8 feed and 5/16 return which works just fine. Factory TPI pump can make 43 lbs but will not support the full flow required if you max out the Terminator systems 600hp capability. AC Delco EP381 is a direct fit and has sufficient flow according to the internet. I'm using one with no issues.
Did you get new 3.5" display or have you got the other handheld? I was talking to Holley about the new LCD display and it is far nicer to see and use than what we got. It will be an over the winter purchase for me this year.
Did you get new 3.5" display or have you got the other handheld? I was talking to Holley about the new LCD display and it is far nicer to see and use than what we got. It will be an over the winter purchase for me this year.
Mine came with the standard handheld. I had to go to Holley's website to see what you were talking about, that looks awesome.
I finally put my throttle body on the engine today to mock up fuel lines and noticed two issues with my Throttle and TV cables. Since my car was originally TPI, my cables are long. It mounts up without a bind feel, but I'm wondering if anyone swapped out throttle or TV cables for a car with TBI instead of TPI or if you are just running the TPI cables without problems?
My second issue is that the TV cable isn't locking onto the bracket. On the Throttle cable, the bracket has a step that's thinner and lets that cable lock onto it, but my TV cable hole doesn't have that step and the metal is too thick for the tabs to lock onto the bracket. Did any of you have that problem?
I don't recall having that issue on dads Nova, it has a TV cable from a carbed 305/700r4 setup. I think I have the bracket in the garage somewhere from my kit I could take a look at. I didn't use it since I am running a t56.
Thanks, I've also noticed that the throttle cable won't directly connect because it has a barrel end on it. Looks like I can either buy a $15 TBI throttle cable or a $21 Lokar cable adapter. I had posted the same questions on the Holley site and Danny suggested modifying the bracket for the TV cable.
I think I would swap out for TBI or carb type cables instead of adapters and to get rid of the extra length. Eventually it will get in the way or end up kinking and cause you a headache.
08-17-2014, 10:34 AM
I've got most of the parts now and will be pulling the old block out to set the new one in this summer. I quickly scanned over the 3 pages here and didn't see the answer. Did any of you have issues with OEM fuel line size? My 89 Camaro originally had TPI and I'm not sure if I need to drop another $100 on a new fuel line from the tank to the regulator or if the OEM lines are sized properly for the Terminator EFI? 
