Hey i was just lookin around online and i found and article that a magazine wrote about a 91 rs camaro with a 305 tbi and they wuted to see wut they could get it to do. well anyways they put custom heads. custom chip. intake, custum groud cam. 3.73 posi with slicks. dual snorkle with a k&n and full exhaust liek the TES headers CAtco cat, Flowmaster muffler. and they only ran a 14.20 thats horrible!!!!!!!!!!!!! they spent a little over 5 grand and thats all they got with heads and a cam. wuts up with this 305 tbi its a peice of junk it doesn't respond to any mods. i was gonna mod mine but forget that!! for 5 grand i can build a high 12 secound 350. anyways i just thought u guys with the Lo3 should know that its a horrible engine for any kind of performance so don't waste your money. geez them little 302 mustangs run 14.20s with gears and exhaust!!!

 

ohh geez .... i can just see the 30 million post that are gonna flow into this thread.

The TBI is a fine motor, who knows what cam or manifold they used and all.

 

We know what we have. Didn't you know? We're the underdogs man. Some of use go built 350, some of go 350 vortec. Some of just mod these motors and see what they will do. We have already seen that article you're referring to. I don't know where you run, but at the track I run 14.2 would whip half the stangs there, especially the newer ones.

 

If you spend 5000 on a L03 and cant break the 11s you dont deserve to build engines.

 

You forgot the price of: gears, exhaust system, chip etc.

The Mustangs come with good heads, cam, & intake from the factory so yeah gears and exhaust are good upgrades, plus Mustangs weigh less too.

The LO3 is underpowered from the factory. ****ty heads, cam, intake, etc.

Upgrading to 3.73 is not cheap since you also need to replace the carrier to mount the 3 series ring gear. I spent about 1200 when I upgraded my 10 bolt.

Heads: good set of smog legal heads about 1000 or more
Cam: smog legal roller cam and lifters about 300

So that's about 2500 bucks right there. Five grand sounds about right for the upgrades made. .

14.20 is not bad considering they did ZERO suspension work. Yeah slicks help but they were still not hooking as good as they could. Now if they boxed the lower control arms, got a Spohn Adj. torque arm, added poly bushings, drag shocks/ struts, and sub frame connectors. I bet they could find another .2 seconds out of that set up.

what was the MPH? a 14.20 based on vehicle weight of 3700# (car + driver) is roughly 265 HP at the flywheel.
If you get the MPH I can get a more accurate #.

14.20 is a pretty repsectable time for a daily driver to be honest with you. As a good racing buddy of mine says: you want an 11s car? LIE.

 

They bought a new car. Got new parts. Kept the same stock block. As I recall they didn't get very agressive with it either. They could have probably used a more agressive cam and some other things, but they figured 14.2 was fast enough!

 

I don't know why 89frmula#1 is bashing the LO3 all over these boards. THis is a board FOR TBI cars. Listen, this is just a guess, but I would say some people on this board have spent no more than $2000 said and done and went 14.2 or better. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE ENGINE GET RID OF IT!!!!

 

dude, its spelled WHAT, not wut
and WANTED not wuted

the lo3 is an under dog, unfortunatly small bore and long stroke doesn't work that well, but there is a lot missing from that article. They also took the car down from a high 17 sec car to a low 14, thats pretty good.

Frmula forgot to mention that the exhaust manifolds on the mustangs are 30X better than on the camaro too, they should have just called them headers and left them at that...

Look around man, you'll find people running really low times with the Lo3, you just got to work for it, thats what makes it fun.

-=-Mike

 

http://members.tripod.com/GRK_Taz/tech/fnotes.html
for a little perspective: That was back in 1989 and they matched a stock Corvette for only $11,050 + their $5000. A little more than half what a vette would have cost, did 14.20 and handled like a champ.

 

hey guys i was by no means trying to bash this engine i love it!!! i just figured if i posted this all u guys would come back with your combos that run better thne 14.2. sorry for comin off liek an a$$. i really would love to keep this engine but i would like to run mid 13's and i don't wunna spend a million dollors or use nitrous. what are your combos and wut ate u runnin? is any1 breakin into the 13 secound range?
alrigth well sorry once again. thank guys please help i am so lost on wut to do to this car.

 

I come from the old school where big blocks were it and small blocks where something your parents drove as a family car. I've built small and big block Chevy's, small and big block Ford's and V-8 Pontiacs. The ol' saying holds true -- There's no replacement for displacement. PERIOD.

When Chevy first come out with the 305, it was a major DOG. It was for economy only. And personally, I would have NEVER own one let alone build one.

I got out of the sport cars when I turned 30. Now at 36, I'm back into it with the car listed in my sig. When I first got the car, knowing that a Firebird with a 350 was not gonna be all the easy, I was more than happy that I found a solid 89 with an 8 cyl. in it. Ok, so it was a 305. I can build it up somewhat.

Being at this age, I'm more concerned about passing emissions and being legal than going fast as heck (HOWEVER, I still like going fast as heck! ) and having only a 305 was fine, since my previous 3 cars all had 4 and 6 cylinders in them....305 was gonna feel like a rocket.

I did a complete rebuild and made some mods as well, with more to come. I just got the car on the road 1 week ago tomorrow and I must say that I am more than impressed by the 305. Sure, it has it flaws, but we know (or at least from hanging out here on this board) we learn how to get around the flaws or improve on them. And, with the high mileage which can be attained by the 305, I think it's a GREAT motor to be used as an everyday driver and a go-fast cart on the weekend.

This is only my personal opinion but I think the 305 it a great place to start. (And yes, I will be building a bigger motor for it......someday). But for the next few years, I'm gonna make my 305 TBI the best it can be!

Sorry so long...

:lala:

Mike

 

I'm going to make this REALLY easy for everyone. Whatever article that was it was ****ed up. I don't usually use the word **** but it's the best word that describes what they did to that Lo3.

Tim (NJSpeeder) has edelbrock heads, a performer TBI and stock EVERYTHING ELSE on the motor. He has a slightly higher stall converter, better rear with 3.50 gears but he was running with a STOCK eprom and the STOCK CAM with 1.6 rocker arms. The car was a beast, still heavy and it ran a 14.20!!!! Now that Tim changed for a bigger cam he's so gonna be at LEAST low 13's and that's with like $100 invested in the cam swap (Lt1). He's got slicks on it but that's the only way to run low ETs. Street tread = crappy 60' = bad bad bad ET, look at my sig for the proof.

Whatever they did they didn't do. Either they forgot to give the engine more fuel or they didn't change the cam, it's one or the other, no imbetweens on this.
I don't trust a magazine with 1/4 mile times, only dyno hp. They seem to do really bad with drag racing no matter what magazine your read. Just listen to the average torque, average hp, and peak rpm of both torque and hp. Those are almost always dead on.
If Tim can do 14.2's with his old setup which was NOT setup for drag then I'm sure a cam swap and heads would put you into the 13's traction depending!
I'm in the 13's but not by much, what was the trap speed for the Lo3 they built? If it's lower than Tim's you can add that to the list of my proofs that they forgot to bump fuel pressure or SOMETHING major. Hell, they probably shifted at like 7000rpm after holding it there for a second between each shift.

 

It also depends on the track. I don't know if they corrected their times for sea level. Plug different tracks give different results. At my track 14.2 is pretty fast. Hell LS1 SS's only run like 13.8 there.

 

almost every mag article i have ever seen that built a 305 or a tbi motor make the usual old schol train of thought mistakes. more cam, more gas, run it out as far as you can. with a 305 you have to concentrate of air velocity, the pumping action of the engine does not have the capacity to go nuts with a high rpm cam and still have any idle quality at all. it is a fault with the narrow bore.
as far as altitude correction goes, we in new jersey are pretty lucky, we are fairly close to sea level and other than mid july through august we tend to see pretty good air(although one day last year the air density was equalk to about 3500ft above sea level, august 3rd, the day of the east coast nats).
you also have to watch out for prices of magazine build ups, they do not actually pay that much for ht eparts, they usually don't pay anything for the parts. companies fall all over them selves to see their name in print, which means the mags get a lot fo free stuff and then quote the suggested retail price that no one charges.
my car weighed 3465 with driver the first tiem i went a 14.2 and it was early may. you can see that my combo is not trick in the least, i just concentrated on matched parts and the correct engien theory.
now i have dropped more weight and still don't have anywhere near $5000 into my motor and i will be runnign solid 12's once it is all tuned in.

later
tim

later
tim

 

You think he'll gain near a full second from just putting a cam in? If that were the case, that'd be the first thing anybody did to their car. A cam will give him good power and put him into the HIGH 13s as long as he pics them to match his heads and intake....but not LOW 13's. And don't say the mag article is crap.....cause they basically have the same mods as NJ SPEEDER right? And they ran a 14.2, like NJ SPEEDER....the only thing that may be off is that price....I admit that 5 grand sounds a bit steep to me.

 

That article isn't as comparabed to NJ SPEEDER's setup as you think. They did put a cam in, he hasn't. They got a chip burned, he hasn't. They used L98 vette heads and kept their compression. He lost compression. His heads should flow better than the vette heads too.

NJ SPEEDER's stock cam should be holding him back a lot. He's got all the other modifications he needs except for the cam. The stock cam has like 194 or 184 duration and .380 or .390 lift. Plus I think JPrevost is counting some on some other mods that weren't done the last time SPEEDER went to the track. His car has lost weight, and he'll actually be tuned this time with a chip.

 

Yes I think Tim will be low 13's after a custom eprom. Nobody should think it isn't possible. He's got a new intake, new larger TB unit, less weight, new gears, and (eventually) a custom eprom. His car will be making mad power and WILL be LOW 13's. If he goes ape **** on the weight reduction high 12's could be possible but tuff. He's got the traction.
YES, I think the Lt1 cam SHOULD be the first thing anybody does to the Lo3 engine itself. However I do not thing it should be the first mod to the car. Gears, posi, headers w/exhaust, and ultimate TB mods are first, always.
I'll say it again, that magazine article is crap. $5g's and you think that was just for head work and an intake? They did a cam swap with the heads and they forgot to do something. I bet if you called up the guys that did the article they would tell you they didn't know what they were doing. Yes weather has a lot to do with it so in that respect I'll give them some credit. If they were in Colorado that 14.2 would be a 13.6 so no questions about it, but they should say something like that. Most good articles that do mods to a car and run them at the track BASE LINE the vehicle. Please read the article and tell us if they did that. If they didn't, article is again, "crap."
I think you need to forget about articles that don't have baseline information or little information that would explain their ETs being so far off.

 

 

dude, i coulda gone mid 13's on the stock cam if i had put the right gear in it and had a custom chip burned. the article has got to be alll messed up if they coudl not do more with the car than i have. i am not a trained mechanic, in fact my hs did not even offer vo-tech. all i know is from reading and playing old school games with cars.
the cam and the tuning will add a ton of power. once tuned in i should be putting somewhere in teh neighbvorhood of 310 to the wheels. that is a very real number that has put manya 4th gen into the 13.0's with less gear.
as far as the price of my engien combo check this out:
edelbrock heads, 60cc. 2.02/1.60 valves= 1100
holley street dominator tbi intake = 200
holley 670cfm tb with 350injectors= 320
crane gold 1.5 full roller rockers= 275
weiand electric water pump= 150
low temp fan switch= 30
custom chip= ask jprevost
97 LT1 cam= 25

that is a grand total of $2100 on the car. if you want you can add the 160 for the 1.6 roller tips rockers i took off and the 215 for the edelbrock performer tbi intake i took off and i still come otu with less than half the investment of the magazine.
i am actually looking at another dead stock 91 rs(hard top this time) if i get it i will go through step by step with individual mods and track results(altitude corrected for easy comparison). you will see just how easy and cheap it really is to go fast with one of these cars. you can buy a really nice rs or base bird for 3000-4500, put under 2000 into it and run with LT1 4th gens that still sell for 9500-12,000 for a nice one. going jsut as fast for half the price is always a good thing i think

later
tim

 

Wait, you said he'd get high 13's w/ a cam....u didn't say anything bout a custom eprom. I too think that with a custom eprom and a cam he'll hit mid to low 13s....but you didn't say anything bout an eprom. And about the article...i did agree w/ you bout the 5gs being crap....but as for the gain they got...i don't think that is crap. I didn't read the article, but didn't a guy say they baselined at 17.xx? If that's true, there's ur baseline. So that means they improved 3 plus seconds.....well then u take NJ SPEEDER's car, and assuming it ran what most LO3s run stock...he ran a 16.1 and now he's at 14.2....so that's nearly a 2 second improvement....so if that guy was right bout the 17.xx baseline, then in all actuallity, the magazine showed excellent improvement, even more so than NJ SPEEDER. But like I said, that's if the guy was right bout the 17 second baseline.

 

i think one thing we all missed here is they use corrected et's in most mag articles. i have never corrected any of my et's.
13's are easy withthe cam. even without custom programming the car shoudl can be adjusted enough to make the 240ish hp that is need to run enough mph(97.5ish) for a 13sec slip. the thing that not enough people are mentioning abotu runnign that et is traction.
discoutn traction action plan :
1. box stock control arms, we did this for blackbird305 and it cost a grand total of $5 to buy the strap metal form home depot. you just cut it to length and weld it into the open side of the stamped arm. welding was free from a friend of ours. i can't imagaine anyoen would charge more than $10 to put a few little welds on for ya.
2. drop the front sway bar, or disconnect one endlink. taking the sway bar off is free other than th ehour of your life you will lose trying to get off those crusty old stock links. if you wanna drop one side when you go to the track just go pick up a new set of links and install them, for poly links it is only like $15 at most. DO NOT REMOVE YOUR REAR SWAY BAR, it acts to keep the car level and the pressure equal on both rear tires, that menas they can both push the same and you will launch strighter and better.
3. spohn relo brackets. they cost $65 but correct teh million$ design flaw gm left in our suspension for us to enjoy it wil prolly cost you $25-40 to get them weleded.
4. taking weight out of the car is free!!!! this is my favorite one anytime you make something lighter you make it easier to movew(duh!) so if you take extra crap out of the car liek the jack and sparte and run with less gas you are knocking time off you et without adding any power. remeber, mph coems from you r poweer to WEIGHT ratio, the less weight you have the more power you need
5. relocate your battery to the hatch. summit sells a kit for really cheap(65ish i think) add to that the nhra required safety disconnect switch and you will be set. the ideal location is the center of the car in the well(as much weight as possible shoudl be centered from side to side when you are runnign a rear sway bar to help with launch, it is less weigth the sway bar has to try to control) but since most of you use that area for storage during your daily driving so the spare tire area will work. this takes weight off the front of the car and puts it in the back. the ideal si to have the lowest possible weight, but iof you've gotta have any weigth it may as well be pushign down on your drive tires.

this combo shoudl be more than enough to get any car, even a car on littel 215 radials to cut 2.0's or even 1.95's easily. you will notice that it does not require the purchase of any tires too, lauches are abotu weight control, i know good tires allow you to be more sloppy that way, but this is far cheaper and unlike tires, you don't have to buy a new set everyyear because you liek burn outs

later
tim

 

See, u and jprevost are talking about different times...ur saying u can get into the 13's w/ a cam, which I agree w/, but he's saying u can get into the LOW 13s.......i agree that you can get into the 13s w/ a cam. He said you would run LOW 13s w/ just a cam added, and I don't believe that switching cams will give you a full second in the 1/4 mile. And when you say "you coulda gone mid 13's a while ago if you had the right gear and a custom eprom", well maybe, but we're talking about what you have now, and what you will get from only a cam install. Next....I agree w/ the both of you about the 5 gs for that TBI buildup to be a crock. But don't compare their results w/ urs, cause their car was slower to start w/ (17 seconds or so), and also, I'm sure they didn't drop all the weight you did...you probably picked up at least .2 second from weight reduction...i'm sure they didn't do all that. And as far as you saying "you will see just how easy and cheap it really is to go fast with one of these cars." Keep in mind I have one...i've whooped many a stang in it ( w/ my LO3). So like you stated, "you can buy a really nice rs or base bird for 3000-4500, put under 2000 into it and run with LT1 4th gens " I have done that. So I don't want yall to get the wrong idea, i'm on ur guy's side, i just disagreed w/ something he said....no big deal...we'll find out the truth once u get the cam in right?

 

i will have an et and the new race weight on march 2nd. i will calculate teh hp at teh wheels the saem way i did before to see what i picked up.

later
tim

 

Ok, I stayed out of this, but I guess I am jumping in here. IrocZ, you don't believe that swapping in a cam won't loose a second off of the ET. I think you have to take in a few things here.

1. Everything but the cam has been replaced. That means the only thing that is restrictive, is the cam size.

2. The peanut cam is EXTREMELY small. It didn't get the name peanut cam for being large

3. Any difference in cam size would greatly affect the performance of the car, seeing as how the cam is the last thing to be changed. Even putting in a relatively mild cam (LT1) you would have some pretty heavy gains. Its all about flow, the cam is not letting the engine flow enough. Change that, and all the parts will be matched up properly.

I can't wait for some new times with a different cam. I have a feeling I will be pretty suprised at the result.

 

Yeah, I've taken into consideration that he already has awsome heads, maxed out TBI intake and all, and the cam will be able to take advantage of that....but i dunno if he'll get a full second w/out a custom eprom. I know he's getting that sooner or later, but we're talkin bout the effect of just the cam. Like you said bout the cam being able to take full advantage of all the mods on the car, well the car wont be able to take full advantage of all mods on the engine until is has the eprom in. The chip in there is to run a 170 HP LO3, and this guy's engine is TOTALLY different except for the stock block and internals, putting out double the HP. The chip is part of tuning, and as everyone says "tuning is everything". But like I said, if i'm right, oh well, if i'm wrong, then good for NJ SPEEDER, cause then he's got a near 12 second beast, and I'm all for that.

 

You can't read, it's easy to see you missed what I wrote. Nowhere did I say an Lo3 could get into the 13's with just a cam. I'll quote myself from the top of the page so you don't need to scroll up.
"The car was a beast, still heavy and it ran a 14.20!!!! Now that Tim changed for a bigger cam he's so gonna be at LEAST low 13's..."
Obviously to the rest of us, I'm talking about Tim's car with the heads and intake already done.
Then the next time I said anything about 13's; "If Tim can do 14.2's with his old setup which was NOT setup for drag then I'm sure a cam swap and heads would put you into the 13's traction depending!", here you'll notice I said heads and cam swap put you into the 13's, didn't say low, just said 13's. Then you said, "A cam will give him [Tim] good power and put him into the HIGH 13s as long as he pics them to match his heads and intake....but not LOW 13's", and I say you're way off base. The cam swap will match every part of his motor build and produce a huge difference in ET. We'll get him into the low 13's and have the time slips to prove it. If you think that a cam swap would bring him only a few tenths you're sadly mistaken. When you pinpoint the bottle neck (the stock cam) and replace it with a near perfect part, you will get loads of power back.
I hope this clears up that nowhere did I ever say just a cam swap on an L03 would = low 13's. I also was commenting about him going low 13's already knowing that he has changed the gears and done more weight reduction. If that was the confusion, sorry, didn't mean it but I thought everybody knew what he's been doing lately (weight reduction).

 

In all fairness, I'd like to clarify a few things.

I agree that the CHP build up sucked. They did a few things that a lot of you know not to do.
But when they spent $5k, it wasn't just on 'performance' stuff. It was the car/paint/interior/tires/wheels/some body work, etc.

That being said, I was rather upset just for the simple fact that they picked a damn carbed engine. I wish they'd do one on TBI for once.

I know a lot of those journalists are old foggies like me, but everyone with a screwdriver and a pair of pliers can adjust/modify a carb.

They named it "My Generation" hoping to attract the newest gen. of hot rodders, but EFI is the next gen.

BTW, I just read my latest issue, and the last letter that someone wrote had a response that they "might" be dropping a 383 in that same car. Talk about one end of the scale to the other. "Let's build up a 305 for a huge amount of wasted money because we don't know what to do." to "Well that didn't work. Now let's put in a stroked small block like we should have done in the first place."

Dumbasses,
AJ

 

well.. there are some buildups that you can do. Like exhaust, (maybe heads), intake, and still be able to swap over to the 383 and keep the parts. So there isn't necessarily anything bad about building up the 305. They are all basically the same blocks, everything usually bolts right up too.

 

Looks like YOU can't read, or just misundertood what I said....i didn't say you said just a cam can put an LO3 into the low 13s....(be nice if that was true)...i know you're not stupid, and anyone that would say that is....i said you said it would put TIM's car into the low 13s. But i said nothing bout a cam swap on a normal LO3...just tim's. But like i said....if I'm right, whoopty doo big deal, and if i'm wrong, then contrats TIM, you've got a 12 second car....i wouldn't mind being wrong, cause it would do me proud to see an LO3 in the 13s.....i think i speak for all the TBI guys when i say that.

 

something that i think a bunch of guys are blowing out of proportion is how bad swirl port heads are. yes i know they suck compared to most of what chevy made and anyting ever put out by the aftermarket. but they are servicable adn can be worked aroudn until a person has enough money to buy a good set of heads.
they have about a 185cc intake port(i say abotu because of gm's traditionally poor casting quality, the design is 185 at least) and the do encourage a lot of velocity. when you consider the cam they came packaged with they really are not a bad choice.
an LT1 or similar mild cam can work with them, the result will be an incredable gain in torque across the board but they wil just run out of breath up top because of turbulance issues.
so if you have stock heads and you wanna ptu in a cam, go for it. you will see a huge gain. there is no need to wait until you have heads to do the swap. the heads will just help otu a lot once you get them.

later
tim

 

Hey guys, I remeber that article. they ran that car at the LA speedway, which has to altitude corrected because of the bad air. plus it was a hot and naty day when they ran. If you remember back then hp parts for fuel injected cars where super expensive plus that's when the companies where starting to get into hp parts for fi. they where only going for tpi powered cars and left everthing else alone. if you remember right all of the hp parts companies have only been producing tbi parts for about 5 or 6 years. they are looking over these cars for other exotic efi configuarations. tbi cars have been around longer than tpi and sfi. it would only be natural for them to start with these engines than to move on to something else, but they did the oposite and went with the tpi first and some are just now looking into tbi setups. most people are scared of efi and don't want to change too much from the factory settings for fear that they might screw something up. take carbs for example, they have been producing parts for those for decades and they are just starting to improve on 50's and 60's technology. just wait we'll get it figured out for them, but we need there money and resources to do so.....just my .02

 

Were're not talking about the CHP article "My Generation". The one we're talking about was from 1989 on an L03 Camaro RS. They bought it new and did the mods to a BRAND NEW car.

 

Well you need to clarify dipsh*t up there then. He's talking about a baseline of 17.xx . The article that YOU are talking about had a baseline of 15.77. So he's under the impression that you're talking about CHP's buildup. And due to his ignorance, I followed. Sorry

Even so..... that car was a 5-spd. NJ's is a auto. They ran a 3.73 rear gear, NJ runs a 4.10. They kept the limited slip, NJ runs a spool. He's running slicks (well damn near), they never did.

There are a lot of other things (and goals) between NJ's build up, and Hot Rod's. NJ set his up for drag strip. They set their's up for (mainly) street use.

There are too many variables between the two cars, and their function to 'actually' compare them to each other.

For instance; I personally would follow Hot Rod's buildup because I have one other vehicle, and my wife drives it (minivan ) So my car is my daily driver. I would like to build up a car like NJ's, but it's just not practical for me right now.

AJ

 

no name calling. I don't want to be editing peoples posts now so go fix it.

 

You're hitting E-Town on the 2nd, Tim? Maybe I'll go...I don't know if I'll hit the strip since I'm still trying to learn how to launch this thing properly...but I'll go and check your car out. =D

 

Don't you hate when you try to make someone else look bad, but in fact, you make urself look like an idiot? Well you just did *******. If you could READ my post, I said "didn't a guy say they baselined at 17.xx? If that's true, there's ur baseline". Well I believe that means that i read someone else say there was a 17 second baseline, but was not sure. I KNOW this is not the "my generation" article...in "my generation", it was an LG4 carbed engine. This article is an LO3 TBI. And i even stated that i had not read the article about the LO3...so how could i be telling people what the baseline was when i had not even read the article? I was quoting what some other guy said, and stated that I didn't know if it was true or not....so don't put this on me. So you basically come in here, misinterpret my post, then TRY and insult me?....and who's the dipshi+ here?? I suggest you read the post a couple of times before you reply...we don't want u making yourself look stupid again now do we? Tas...i know you don't like the cussing, but you have to admit this guy deserved it??