Streetiron85

If you have a new plug , maybe try that as a test for spark quality.
Sometimes cleaning plugs makes em worse.

Token

I tried that with my old plugs (less than 5k on them) and I got the same color spark.

86Z

iTrader: (4)

new doesnt always = good, have the module checked that controls the coil, pickup coils usually just die and you get no spark. trust me it's easy to take it for a free test, and be sure it's good and eliminate it

Token

if I took it into a shop, I fear they would just blame it on the PROM because they're idiots like that. The guys at AutoZone thought it's impossible to put an LTx cam into my car... we argued for a few minutes about it before he said "hey whatever man"

Token

I've tested my MSD coils, and both are fine. I haven't tested the igntion modules but I hear if they don't work then I wouldnt get any spark at all...

Streetiron85

Is the new coil a cannister type or one of those squarish plastic ones? If it's the cannister, is it possible you have the +/- terminals switched?

Token

nah it's the MSD OEM replacement version. the GM Blaster one.

Streetiron85

Congrats... it sounds like you didn't make any stupid mistakes then.
So was your car running B4 the mods?

Token

with the exception of a bad EGR, it was running flawless.

Streetiron85

When you first tried to fire it up after the mods, were all the original parts still in/on the dist ?

Token

the car ran at one point. i had it on the road, but it immediately bogged/stalled when i put it in gear or gave it gas. The cap/rotor, coil, and ignition module were all from the past... and then the car stopped working so I put on a new cap/rotor, then yesterday the new coil and ign mod

Streetiron85

I'd be about to cry too.
I don't know a lot about HEI, but I'm pretty sure it isn't your pickup. Cause if it was then there'd be no spark.
It would suck if it's in your ECM. Like maybe some static charge happned while you were doing the mods and it took out part of the ECM.
There might be some wiz in the electronic board who can tell you how to bypass your ECM/ ESC with a hot wire and test your ign directly from the batt.
I actually think there is a way because I did something like that on my 88 tbi truck one time, but I can't remember how.
Thought about that?

Streetiron85

It almost sounds like maybe power isn't getting to your ECM

Streetiron85

I just read where dimented24x7 said the ecm is bypassed while cranking. I'd have someone look under the hood while you're cranking and see whether the injectors are spraying, and check the spark too, from the coil directly to the ground with a good cable.

Token

the injectors are most definitely spraying.

Streetiron85

The next step would be to find out if your dist is the prob or the ECM.
You can test the dist with a circuit tester, I don't know how to do that.
Or you can bench test it, or you can test it on another car, or you can find out how to hotwire it.
At times like this it's a good idea to have a method to your madness. Or it's like you said, it will seem like you're going through hell.
It's possible that this is all a sign from powers
greater than ourselves, that it's time to start thinking outside the "box" (pun). And go carbed. You wouldn't be the first who's been driven to that by the ECM demon. And you wouldn't be the first to experience the taste of liberation!
I went carb, cause a rat chewed my wiring and after that there was a fire. Now I have a truck with a charred hood and a Qjet. But when there's a problem I can fix it. My Fbody still has EFI tho.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

<400 rpm, there is no input from the ecm. The ignition is jsut being handled by the module itself.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

One thing I wonder is why teh hell is the spark red? Should be blue, even if its really weak.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Sounds more like its a sign that there is something seriously wrong with the ign system. Putting a carb on wont fix the problem. Although buying another non-cc HEI distributer would if the problem was with the distributer. Id only switch my crapmaro to a non-cc carb + dist. if I had a bad underhood fire and it wiped out the harness and everything else.

Streetiron85

So what if there was a voltage spike shortly after the car was fired up for the first time after the mods were done?
Could the ESC part of the ECM be fried and soaking up the current that should be going to the primary side of the coil?
Is there a test to find out if the primary side of the coil is getting the right signal?

Token, are the wires connected to the coil pink and white?

1WickedSS

I have read the whole post, and have came up with two possibilities of my own. First being that you have fu(ked up the distributor and the rotor is spinning crooked, I did this on my car pulling holeshots and it took me foredver to figure out. Check for latteral play on the distributor shafe itself, there should be none, and if there is then it is cretanily bad, and will rewuire replacing. the second thing is the ignition control module, you apparently installed it correcatlly, but I have worked at numreous parts stores and I have foud ignition control modules can and often are bad right out of the box, for what ever reason I dont know but they are and can lead to a huge nightmare.I hope in no way in this post did I make you feel like a dumb a$$ thats not what I am trying to accomplish, but mearly trying to help you, so please dont take it as anything but that. other than my two suggestins I dont have any other ideas, so I hope for you that one of the works. Dont give up on life, this is just a challenge to make you more of a person. As crappy as it is now, one day you will look back on being victorious, and recall the large sence of pride you got when YOU finally figured it out, dont forget this. In the end it all amkes sence.

Token

That's awesome that you read it all. Most people usually read the titles of threads and then reply from what they can gather in the first post or so, giving the same advice that's been said or debunked already. Do you think I'd even be getting a spark if the ignition module was bad? Both of them produce the same color spark, and neither of them start the car. And I'm not sure I understand what happened to your distributor, but that's probably the next thing I'll have to end up buying for my car to rule out another possibilty.

But you're right, when I figure out what's wrong I'll probably kick my own *** for not thinking of it sooner.

Token

Carb is definitely not for me. I've already spent too much money on trying to make this car run with EFI; custom PROM, Holley 670cfm, TBI-to-carb adapter, Vortec throttle linkage, etc. To give up now would be a huge waste. I can't afford a $300 carbeurator plus tuning supplies, and a $100 vacuum-advance distributor, and then a carb fuel pump and/or AFPR. Then you can't forget the extra things I'd still need, such as fuel lines and throttle linkage brackets and miscellaneous fabrications. Then it doesn't stop there, because I'd only be getting half the gas mileage I'd have with TBI, not to mention I'd constantly have to fiddle with it to make it work. Carb is definitely nothing I want to consider.

88305tpiT/A

iTrader: (2)

ok well I read the whole thread too and I agree that you should get the module tested or try one that you know works.

A weak primary voltage from the module is what you are describing unless you gapped your plugs at like .065.

flyitlikustolit

which he didn't, they're at .045, IIRC. I read this last night, and today i woke up and thoguht some more. grab the distributor, and shake it a little. see if there's any play in it, or if the stationary part turns. if so, replace the distributor. what I'm getting at, is I worked on an isuzu trooper one time... it had a chevy 2.8 V6. we did a tune up on it, but it came back and wouldn't start. I checked the cap, and the distributor... the whole thing, turned. i took it out, and the guy who did the tune up (not me) failed to noticed that the top part was all loose and busted. see if something like that happened.

Streetiron85

So are the wires to the coil pink and white?
Cause if they are, then testing the pink one for hot while on is a good place to start.
After that there are some other tests I found.
I don't have a wiring diagram for a TBI thirdgen but I have one for my TBI truck and there are similarities, so lemme know.


Hey... If you're in trouble don't shout HELP shout FIRE,
Or in the case of TGO... say, "I'm gonna do a carb swap"

flyitlikustolit

ROFLMAO. Damn, it's so true.

1WickedSS

if the input voltage is too weak then the output will alos be weak. I would get it tested just to be sure. as for the distributor I would check it, grab the distirbutor shaft, by where the rotor goes on it, and try to shake it, back and forth, checking for latteral play, if there is any then I would replace it, also I know that the cap and rotor are new, but check them,if the distributor is bad there is a chance that the rotor has come into contact with the inside of the posts on the cap, you can tell this by looking for little cuts in the termanial's other than that I dont know. Hopefully you figure it out soon, I know how frustrating it can be sometimes to diagnose a prolblem. Never give up, never surrender!

Token

it definitely wiggles a bit, not much.



What wires am I testing, and for what voltage?

Streetiron85

Try the heavy ga one going into the coil from the firewall harness, that should be 12+v with the key on. Then the prong coming out of the coil where the same colored wire connects, 12+v also, and at the other end of that wire 12+v also.

Token

I'm fed up. I've spent more time trying to get my car to work than I have studying for class. My car won't start. I've posted this topic a few times, but it still will not start. The car cranks, the car gets fuel, and the plugs are sparking. The problem? The car won't turn over. It will occasionally fire, but never consistently detonates. I took a plug out and the spark its getting is a dull red/orange color, and doesn't look very big. I'm not sure if that's the problem or not. If you guys don't know what's wrong with it, how do I know a mechanic will be able to fix it?

Before you suggest replacing everything, please note that I've replaced and/or tested:
wires: MSD Heli-Core, Universal set. 2 weeks old. I crimped these with a C-clamp, and re-crimped them to double check after the car wouldn't start. resistance checks out fine.
cap/rotor: Accel, 2 weeks old, no carbon tracking
ignition module: Mallory (OEM style); week old, same results as the stock module gave
plugs: Autolite 604s, gapped at 045 out of the box; three weeks old, fouled but cleaned w/toothbrush twice, have same results with other plugs with smaller gap (however have not re-gapped these plugs to smaller- will try it later)
coil: MSD Blaster (external OEM Style); my old one (year old) is the same coil, I replaced it with the identical one (week old) with the same results. I tested both coils as per Chilton's instructions, and come out fine.
battery: DieHard Silver, new as of yesterday, 12.64V at terminals, and about that from positive-to-chassis
relocated ground wires: to ensure a good contact surface
valve lash: I reset lash a few times with both methods (Chilton's and Haynes). Valves indeed open without coil binding, as I have tried to start the car with the covers off.
pushrods: they are straight as an arrow, not bent or anything.
timing: the rotor is pointing to #1 cylinder on the #1's compression stroke (both valves closed) with the piston at TDC (as per balancer). The timing light DOES go off consistently after the battery was replaced (12.3v on that battery) which it didn't before.
fuses: all of them check out fine, including the ones under the hood. I checked all of the fusable links I could find, and they're okay.
ECM/PROM: although the computer does not control the engine under 400rpm, I've tried both the stock prom and the one from TBIChips.com.

The problem all started after my project (in the sig). With the exception of a bad EGR, my L03 was running flawless before I started the mods. The car ran at one point with the new mods, but poorly. It would bog and stall when I put it in gear or gave it too much gas, but it idled fine in the driveway. The timing was probably the culprit, but I don't know how good the spark was then. I'm guessing it probably has something to do with my problem. There are no SES codes aside from 12, due to the EST is disconnected. Yes, I've tried starting it with the connector on as well.

I bought a new multi-meter and I have no clue what to test aside from the obvious. I'm getting good voltage from + to chassis. I've got little resistance from the heads/intake/accessories to the chassis and battery (~10milliOhm). I don't know if the spark is bad, or if it's just not sparking when it should. I have not checked if the distributor is grounded or not, but I will as soon as I go outside to test other things.

I put the stock TBI on the other day and noticed it was dumping tons of fuel into the intake. I had to take the plugs out and dry them off with a lighter (to burn the fuel out). I put the TPS on the Holley so it wouldn't flood the engine. Now it just mists the fuel (like it should) into the intake instead of pours it in. I think the stock TBI's TPS may be dead or something now. The weatherpack connector only goes in one-way... Anyway, that's probably not the reason the car won't start, because the plugs are still getting a bit wet.

Carb is definitely not an option for me. I've already spent too much money on trying to make this car run with EFI; custom PROM, Holley 670cfm, TBI-to-carb adapter, Vortec throttle linkage, etc. To give up now would be a huge waste. I can't afford a $300 carbeurator plus tuning supplies, and a $100 vacuum-advance distributor, and then a carb fuel pump and/or AFPR. Then you can't forget the extra things I'd still need, such as fuel lines and throttle linkage brackets and miscellaneous fabrications. Then it doesn't stop there, because I'd only be getting half the gas mileage I'd have with TBI, not to mention I'd constantly have to fiddle with it to make it work. Carb is definitely nothing I want to consider.

Tomorrow (or tonight if I can't sleep) I will check things with my multi-meter including the coil voltage and distributor ground/resistance. If that's not the problem... the car is being towed to a shop, where I will pay a million dollars to get it fixed.

:lala:


Thank you for reading.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

The timing was probably the culprit, but I don't know how good the spark was then. I'm guessing it probably has something to do with my problem. There are no SES codes aside from 12, due to the EST is disconnected. Yes, I've tried starting it with the connector on as well.


Is that the est bypass connector disconected, or the four pin connector on the back of the dist. Since the ecm still runs the injectors I assume your reffering to the bypass connector. LEave that plugged in, otherwise you wont have any advance then the motor starts.


I put the stock TBI on the other day and noticed it was dumping tons of fuel into the intake. I had to take the plugs out and dry them off with a lighter (to burn the fuel out).


Thats probably half your problem right there. Unplug the fuel injectors and crank the engine to help clear out the flood. Crank it for 15 seconds at a time and do it like 2-3 times. The compression will help generate heat that will drive off the excess fuel. With the leaned out mixture just from the residual fuel it might even run for a couple of seconds on its own. Also unplug the MAP sensor to force n-alpha. Alot of times after mods this will help at least get the car running so you can see what other issues it might have.

Token

Yes, the single tan wire by the air conditioner thingydo. I have tried it plugged in and unplugged. And I have cranked the engine with the injectors unplugged after I noticed it pissing fuel. Which one is the MAP, how many wires does it have? it's on the firewall lip right?

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Leave the bypass plugged in. Doesnt effect anything at idle but if the motor finally starts it might not stay running w/o advance from the computer. The map is on the firewall next to the ehater box. Sometimes in event of a serious problem that causes the engine to pull low vacuum its helpful to unplug the map so the engine can still sort of run. Did it once when I was having problems and the engine wouldnt stay running long enough to diagnose it. It probably wont help much if you cant get the motor to start, though.

If its possible, can you get a pic of wha the spark looks like at the plug?

Token

I don't have my camera here, but the spark plug looks completely normal. There's nothing I haven't seen about it. It's a little black, and the insulator in the center is kinda gray. That's about it. They smell like gas.

1WickedSS

O.K. so now I am pissed, I just typed this whole thing and some how it all got erased, damit! Ill do it again I guess. So I am sittin ghere not being able to go to sleep, even though I have to work in like 5 hours, but oh well. So I can sleep and I am thinking about your car, and your prolblem ( deturmined not to be beaten) and I came to another possibility, one that I havent heard yet ( from the thread) and one that I myself havent suggested. THe ESC ( electronic spark controller) first of all it is about the size of a credit card and about a 1/4" thick, it has about 10 pins and a weather pack connector, it is located behind the relays for the coolant fan, and the fuel pump, in between the power brake booster and the driver side fender, on the fire wall. first of all check to see if you have a good connection, if you do and you are cretian of it go to any junk yard, and fine ANY T.B.I motor, 305,350 dosent matter, and take it, take a few, and plug them into your car, if I was a betting man, I would bet that it would cure your prolbelm. The esc controls the spark voltage, by regulating how long the coil has to saturate the charge, by doing this it can also control the timing curve, if this thing is bad whitch it sure sounds like to me, then you have got it fixed for probally like 4 dollars, heck most junk yards dont even know what it is. well I hope this works, if it does please let me know, if it dosent let me know and Ill see if I can think of anything else to help you, good luck!

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

I was curious as to what the spark looked like itself. Having a hard time visualizing what a red spark looks like at the plug. Whenever I go to test an engine for spark, its always blue, regardless of how strong or weak it is. Red would indicate alot of lower energy emmisions near the infrared part of the spectrum, which sort of defies explanation.

Token

it's blue now, somehow. I think the new battery has more juice (Sears DieHard vs a Walmart EverLast )


the ESC idea doesn't sound like a bad one. I don't knwo where any junkyards are around here, but I'll see if I can't get it tested. I'm going to probably pull the whole front end apart again, to doublecheck the cam is properly timed to the crank.

snflupigus

timing... check dist gear... chewed?

fuel.... injectors were dumping fuel... tps wired wrong? backwards?

let us know how the timing checks out after pulling the front cover.

may the force be with you...

Token

dist gear looks fine. TPS connector only goes in one way on the stock rochester TBI and it was pouring in fuel then. it's currently connected to my holley's TPS just to prevent flooding. I'll work out the TPS problem after I fix the no-start. I am afraid to pull the front cover off because I think everything will be fine under neath it...

snflupigus

can you think of anything else that would cause this ... i cant get around thinking its timing... even though you know how to set it. i know how to do a lot of stuff too, but i know ive still messed it up before LOL... no offense... We're all dying with you here man... it always sucks when you come to the "masters" and nobody can solve... this is when you love to hate the power of internet... "OHHH mighty internet, bring me all answers...." then you get "o, sorry, all of our answers arent working" - without the internet, you would have been to a tech by now and had it fixed for a couple hundred bucks though...

keep on trucking

86WS6_T/A

I'll put another vote down for the ESC. Another thing you might check is all your weatherpack connectors. I know on my car, after 18 years, most of them are about ready to fall apart . Sometimes the end of the isulation can wear or fall off causing the wires to touch and may be fouling something up. I had this happen on my fuel pump relay. Pump would prime but stay running if the car was off. Searched and searched and searched and I kinda jiggled the relay and I saw a spark and it quit humming. Go figure

Streetiron85

Anyone who knows how to trouble shoot could have this figured out in 1/2 hour, I'll bet, if they were on location.
But if you took it to a shop it'd take them 10-20 hrs.
With some improved communication here someone could get to the bottom of this. I'd say go to the electrical board and find someone who knows their ghyt, who will PM you and talk you through this.
Take your car to the wrong shop and they might end up becoming it's new owners. There are guys out there who will gladly charge you $65/hr to accomplish nothing on your car.
Put electrical troubleshooting on your list of "studies" til you figure this out... or bend over.

Basically, you did too many mods at the same time and it makes it more complicated.
Figure out a way to test your distributor, and if that isn't the problem you can eliminate it. If it is the problem, fix it and install it with all the plug wires on right.
Find ONE guy who will help you out.
There's probably someone here who will talk you through this on the phone.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

The tps wont have much effect on startup, other then that it controls when the ecm goes into flood clear mode. All the fueling other then the tps pump shot is handled by the map under normal operating conditions.

1WickedSS

I still say that its the esc, and sadly you cant have it tested either. if you are planning on coming to the U.P. I have like 5 or 6 sitting right here nest to me, how about that for luck too bad we are seperated by 500 miles. just a idea, I am a automotive major at northern michigan university and I have thousands upon thousands of dollars of tools and diagnostic equipment at my disposal, if you can find a way to get it here Id be more than glad to fix it for you, might cost you some beer, but I know that I can fix it, just a idea. I still say go with the esc, or re-quadrouple check the timing, thats all I have for now, if you are interested in actually coming up here P.M. me and Ill give you more info, sorry I cant help any further, good luck!



Edit: are your vaccuum lines good going to your map sensor? you might grab one or ten of those at the junk yard and see if the map took a dump. if you can get to Adrian I know of a few junk yards, I also know of a few in highland ( US-23 exit 67 area) just a idea.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

.

oh, about that tps, its jsut not sitting there hanging off the connector, pegged at its full travel, is it?

Token

I've made up my mind that the car is going to the shop tomorrow (on monday) via tow truck. It's to the point where I just *need* the car to run now. Its my only vehicle and I have to get to and from school. I may not always have an available ride to take me 40 miles each way. I can't afford to keep dumping time and dollars into this car when it's doing no good sitting in my damn driveway for the past three weeks. I've already purchased about $250 in things that I don't need, which haven't fixed the problem. I'm so close, yet so far away.

I thought I could have the car up and running in a week. And I did. I had the engine bay pretty much stripped out within two days, and then reassembled in another two. I was making good timing. I had my car started and running that same week. I just hit a brick wall when something went wrong though. I failed my project. I did not accomplish my goals. I will probably be shyed away from ever working on a project like this again, because the more I touch my car the worse it gets.

Streetiron85

Good Luck
I hope next time we hear from you you'll be telling us that it's running like a top and it cost less than $100 to fix.

Token

add a zero to that if its a shop

89Z

I have read the entire thread and would like to offer a very inexpensive thing to try before taking it to the shop. What I am about to offer is based on an experience very similar to yours many many years ago, but its these types of lessons that stick with you. I believe that your plugs are ruined (gas fouled) because they couldn't properly ignight the gas when they were producing a red spark. I realize that you burned the gas off with a lighter and cleaned them, but if they are really gas fouled, nothing will bring them back. I experienced this with a set of plugs that looked new but were gas fouled. Either try a different set of plugs or put your plugs in the oven at 400F for 1/2 hour and install them as quick as you can (tough on a third gen) and fire it up. The plugs must be over 250F when you try to fire it so you must work quickly. The only other thing to look at is double or triple check make sure your plug wires are all going to the right plugs. I just want to emphasize that the time I was in a situation like yours the plugs looked new, the spark looked good, but they wouldn't fire until I heated them up and put them in as quickly as possibe. It ran until it cooled down ovenight and wouldn't restart. I replaced the plugs with new ones the next day and never had a problem again. Sometimes you just can't bring gas fouled plugs back from the dead. If you don't want to mess with the heating up deal, then try a new set. This is worth a try. Good luck. Let us know how you make out.