Got a 400 block, planning a buildup. Could use some advice from the experienced!.
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Supreme Member
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Rock Hill, SC
Car: 1999 Pontiac T/A Firehawk
Engine: ***'s Engine
Transmission: T56
Got a 400 block, planning a buildup. Could use some advice from the experienced!.
Since this is my first "real" engine build, I'm looking for some advice, particularly in the valvetrain area. My goal for this engine is about 400 RWHP on 93 octane, EVENTUALLY. It's going to sit in front of a fairly built 700R4.
And yes, I realize that building a 400 is probably not the first engine you should build. That's okay, I always bite off more than I can chew--you probably shouldn't swap out an entire driveline before you learn to change the oil, either.
Here's the current plan:
I think that's the main components.
Here's the questions:
#1) What kind of compression ratio can I run, with iron heads, and still run on 93 octane? I've heard anywhere from 9:1 to 10:1.
#2) What size intake port should I get on the Dart heads? I've heard 200cc from a NUMBER of places.
#3) Pistons... obviously piston configuration (dished or flat) will be determined by the answer to question #1 and the combustion chamber size I end up using. What I don't know is if I should spend the extra cash on Forged pistons even if I am using a stock cast crank.
#4) Rockers... I want to use FULL roller, not just roller tip. Probably stick with 1.5 ratio unless there's a good reason to step up to 1.6... Anyone have any suggestions on which ones to get?
#5) Lifters... I am going to use retrofit hydraulic rollers (yes, I am building a full roller 400, this should be fun). I don't have enough information to know which brands are good however.
#6) Camshaft. I'm totally lost here. Without any experience, I don't have any idea what a good cam would be to run in a 400. I don't mind a lumpy idle at all (hell, a little lumpy is good), but this car is going to be almost all street and very little track, so a super high-rpm cam is not desired, nor do I want to spend the money on beefing up the bottom end and valvetrain to take more than 6000rpm.
#7) Intake. Yeah, I know, the stock TPI is an absolutely lousy choice and will probably choke a 400 by 3500 rpms. Don't worry, it won't be staying. It's just that I can't afford a miniram/superram and the engine build at the same time, and I'd kind of like to get the car MOVING under its own power. I don't really care that much if it is way below potential with the stock TPI (and it will be) as long as it drives acceptably (no bucking, stalling, and I'd like it to at least match stock SD L98 times).
Opinions, suggestions, and yes,flames welcome
------------------
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master"
'84 Black Camaro ZZ4 M5 (V-6 in a former life) -- street beast
'91 Medium Blue Metallic Z28 A4 (UB-HSTRY's old ride) -- currently broken
'99 Navy Blue Metallic Firehawk #120 M6 (99.44% stock) -- daily driver
[This message has been edited by 99Hawk120 (edited April 11, 2001).]
And yes, I realize that building a 400 is probably not the first engine you should build. That's okay, I always bite off more than I can chew--you probably shouldn't swap out an entire driveline before you learn to change the oil, either.
Here's the current plan:
I think that's the main components.
Here's the questions:
#1) What kind of compression ratio can I run, with iron heads, and still run on 93 octane? I've heard anywhere from 9:1 to 10:1.
#2) What size intake port should I get on the Dart heads? I've heard 200cc from a NUMBER of places.
#3) Pistons... obviously piston configuration (dished or flat) will be determined by the answer to question #1 and the combustion chamber size I end up using. What I don't know is if I should spend the extra cash on Forged pistons even if I am using a stock cast crank.
#4) Rockers... I want to use FULL roller, not just roller tip. Probably stick with 1.5 ratio unless there's a good reason to step up to 1.6... Anyone have any suggestions on which ones to get?
#5) Lifters... I am going to use retrofit hydraulic rollers (yes, I am building a full roller 400, this should be fun). I don't have enough information to know which brands are good however.
#6) Camshaft. I'm totally lost here. Without any experience, I don't have any idea what a good cam would be to run in a 400. I don't mind a lumpy idle at all (hell, a little lumpy is good), but this car is going to be almost all street and very little track, so a super high-rpm cam is not desired, nor do I want to spend the money on beefing up the bottom end and valvetrain to take more than 6000rpm.
#7) Intake. Yeah, I know, the stock TPI is an absolutely lousy choice and will probably choke a 400 by 3500 rpms. Don't worry, it won't be staying. It's just that I can't afford a miniram/superram and the engine build at the same time, and I'd kind of like to get the car MOVING under its own power. I don't really care that much if it is way below potential with the stock TPI (and it will be) as long as it drives acceptably (no bucking, stalling, and I'd like it to at least match stock SD L98 times).
Opinions, suggestions, and yes,flames welcome
------------------
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master"
'84 Black Camaro ZZ4 M5 (V-6 in a former life) -- street beast
'91 Medium Blue Metallic Z28 A4 (UB-HSTRY's old ride) -- currently broken
'99 Navy Blue Metallic Firehawk #120 M6 (99.44% stock) -- daily driver
[This message has been edited by 99Hawk120 (edited April 11, 2001).]
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From: South of GR, MI USA
Car: 1971 Corvette
Engine: 6.0 LS1 L92 heads sheet metal etc.
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that combo will not make 400 rwhp. you can go up to around 10.25:1 for comp, that's what mine is. 200 or 215 darts would be fine. i would probably get the 215s, but i know the 200s work on my motor.
try asking one question at a time, most people on here don't have enough time to answer them all at once.
------------------
88 S10
Dropped 3/4
18" Boyd Coddington Timeless 5s
Dart equipped 406
12.20 @ 115.25 mph
try asking one question at a time, most people on here don't have enough time to answer them all at once.
------------------
88 S10
Dropped 3/4
18" Boyd Coddington Timeless 5s
Dart equipped 406
12.20 @ 115.25 mph
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From: outerspace(maybe..pluto)?
ok if you dont completely know what your doing ..dont!! get someone to help you! i know ive been through the whole ordeal! anyhow, iron heads are better for the street especally in our hot running cars. try and make about 10.5-10.8:1 compression. this is very realistic on pump 93 i did this with the engine in my sig. get the iron eagles your thinking about with these specs: 64cc 202/1.60 valves 215cc intake runner STRAIT PLUG heads you'll be fine with a radical 400 with 215's no loss of tq or power. go with a good forged flat top.dont get domed or dished they suck! as for a crank if you plan on turning over 6500 rpm all the time then id get at least a 5140 forged scat or something. if you plan on staying under 6000 pm just use stock crank. comp cams roller rockers no other choice is better. stock tpi is not a wonderfull choice but, i understand you can only work with what your budget allows. get a modified chip to start and then port the intake base, then gasket match the runners and possibly upgrade the tb.? some of the less expensive mods(except the tb!) as for the roller cam dont listen to anyone who tells yout to get a CRANE POS cams they suck!!! get a comp cam theyre rpm ranges are almost perfect! id go with the comp cams xe roller it has a .510 .520 lift and a 230 236 duration at .050 and it will definitly have the rough idle.your going to need a burned custom chip with any cam that has those specs when using any tpi setup. your going to also need like 30lb hr. injectors to run this puppy! youll definitly going to choke it by using the stock tpi.id do some cheap upgrades of some sorts a 400 MUST breath!! also STEAM PORT WHATEVER HEADS YOU BUY!!!!! or you'll overheat the engine evry time you start it!! id add a good set of hedders and a free flowing exhaust. i hope this was of some help!
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89 firebird formula
356 10.5:1compression CURRENTLY DEAD!!! BEARING FAILURE!!
comp cams xe262 cam
performer rpm intake
#1405 edlebrock 600
sportsman 2 heads 64cc 2.02/1.60 valves 200cc intake runner
msd 6al
h.e.i. proform 50,000 volt vac. advance ditributor
700r-4 with 3.08 first gear and 3.23 posi 7 5/8 rear end.
b trans shift kit(will kill shifts...suck dong!!)
shorty heddman hedders with custom 3" pipe y-pipe back(no damn cat!) with 40 series flowmaster!
future mods: 406 roller REALLY REALLY REALLY RADICAL!!!!!
------------------
89 firebird formula
356 10.5:1compression CURRENTLY DEAD!!! BEARING FAILURE!!
comp cams xe262 cam
performer rpm intake
#1405 edlebrock 600
sportsman 2 heads 64cc 2.02/1.60 valves 200cc intake runner
msd 6al
h.e.i. proform 50,000 volt vac. advance ditributor
700r-4 with 3.08 first gear and 3.23 posi 7 5/8 rear end.
b trans shift kit(will kill shifts...suck dong!!)
shorty heddman hedders with custom 3" pipe y-pipe back(no damn cat!) with 40 series flowmaster!
future mods: 406 roller REALLY REALLY REALLY RADICAL!!!!!
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Rock Hill, SC
Car: 1999 Pontiac T/A Firehawk
Engine: ***'s Engine
Transmission: T56
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 406 S10 Man:
that combo will not make 400 rwhp.</font>
that combo will not make 400 rwhp.</font>
Unless you're just keying on the stock TPI. In which case I understand, but the stock TPI will NOT be staying! I know there is no way in hell to get 400RWHP with it, but I need to have an engine that will actually RUN under the stock TPI and make ~400RWHP under a different intake (miniram, maybe).
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
try asking one question at a time, most people on here don't have enough time to answer them all at once.</font>
try asking one question at a time, most people on here don't have enough time to answer them all at once.</font>
[This message has been edited by 99Hawk120 (edited April 11, 2001).]
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,411
Likes: 3
From: Rock Hill, SC
Car: 1999 Pontiac T/A Firehawk
Engine: ***'s Engine
Transmission: T56
ok if you dont completely know what your doing ..dont!! get someone to help you!
I'm more than capable of assembling the motor. The issue at hand is component selection, which I am asking for help on, and I appreciate what anyone wants to pass on.
get the iron eagles your thinking about with these specs: 64cc 202/1.60 valves 215cc intake runner STRAIT PLUG heads you'll be fine with a radical 400 with 215's no loss of tq or power.
Hmmmm... I have heard that the straight plug heads will interfere with the headers I have (which, I of course, forgot to post in the original message... going to have to go fix that).
as for a crank if you plan on turning over 6500 rpm all the time then id get at least a 5140 forged scat or something. if you plan on staying under 6000 pm just use stock crank.
6000rpm will be the most likely redline. 6500 at the ABSOLUTE max.
stock tpi is not a wonderfull choice but, i understand you can only work with what your budget allows.
Actually it's a lousy choice, and I know this. I don't plan on sticking with it either. I'd really rather just start with a MR or SR, but funds don't allow that. That'll have to come later.
your going to need a burned custom chip with any cam that has those specs when using any tpi setup. your going to also need like 30lb hr. injectors to run this puppy!
Yeah, especially with the setup being SD, I'm well aware of the need to tune it and burn custom chips. As far as the injectors, I'd like to get the size injectors I'd need for the 400RWHP goal, and try and make the stock TPI sort of run with that, until i get the money for the intake change.
id add a good set of hedders and a free flowing exhaust. i hope this was of some help!
Yeah, I have some SLP 1 3/4" going in. I forgot to put it in the list above. I appreciate the help.
[This message has been edited by 99Hawk120 (edited April 11, 2001).]
I'm more than capable of assembling the motor. The issue at hand is component selection, which I am asking for help on, and I appreciate what anyone wants to pass on.
get the iron eagles your thinking about with these specs: 64cc 202/1.60 valves 215cc intake runner STRAIT PLUG heads you'll be fine with a radical 400 with 215's no loss of tq or power.
Hmmmm... I have heard that the straight plug heads will interfere with the headers I have (which, I of course, forgot to post in the original message... going to have to go fix that).
as for a crank if you plan on turning over 6500 rpm all the time then id get at least a 5140 forged scat or something. if you plan on staying under 6000 pm just use stock crank.
6000rpm will be the most likely redline. 6500 at the ABSOLUTE max.
stock tpi is not a wonderfull choice but, i understand you can only work with what your budget allows.
Actually it's a lousy choice, and I know this. I don't plan on sticking with it either. I'd really rather just start with a MR or SR, but funds don't allow that. That'll have to come later.
your going to need a burned custom chip with any cam that has those specs when using any tpi setup. your going to also need like 30lb hr. injectors to run this puppy!
Yeah, especially with the setup being SD, I'm well aware of the need to tune it and burn custom chips. As far as the injectors, I'd like to get the size injectors I'd need for the 400RWHP goal, and try and make the stock TPI sort of run with that, until i get the money for the intake change.
id add a good set of hedders and a free flowing exhaust. i hope this was of some help!
Yeah, I have some SLP 1 3/4" going in. I forgot to put it in the list above. I appreciate the help.
[This message has been edited by 99Hawk120 (edited April 11, 2001).]
Supreme Member
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 18,457
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From: Loveland, OH, US
Car: 4
Engine: 6
Transmission: 5
A few opinions, FWIW...
Learn to change the oil sometime between now and build-up time.
------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports
- 1. I'm running 10.4:1; 64cc heads, 12.5cc dish, std bore 400, .039 head gasket. With careful preparation of the combustion chambers, I don't have a problem with it. I'd say that's about the limit since before I smoothed all the edges in the chambers, I did have a timing issue.
- 7. This one will affect all the others. Figure out what you're going to do here, even if you are going to come back and do it later.
- 2. 200cc is reasonable.
- 3. I would recommend forged. But if you aren't going to spin it past 6000, you will get better results if you spend your money fixing #7 than going for exotic, romantic-sounding racing parts such as those forged from pure virgin nonobtanium in the bottom end. Basically if you run a non-stock rod like that you're already into the realm of special pistons. Again, IMHO your money is better spent elsewhere than on rods 1/8" longer than stock, if you're running the stock crank anyway; I'm running stockers with ARP bolts in mine, and have been (the same rods and bolts no less) for about 135,000 miles. The biggest argument in favor of longer rods is that they allow for an internally balanced crank without Mallory metal, and therefore regular balanced flywheel and balancer; but since you've already decided to go external balance, you gain very little in exchange for a significant expense. Besides, the stock crank will protect the stock rods by failing first. BDTD, still have one of the pieces.
- 4. Step up. 1.5s are wrong. Lift is a good thing when dealing with a large motor. You can never have too much lift (well, almost). I'm running the Comp 1102s which are kind of $$$ but a very nice piece. Don't use aluminum if you plan on having it last a long time on the street; steel is sometimes heavier than aluminum, but the reliability is worth it.
- 5. Whoever you get the cam from, get their lifters too. They're taller than flats so your push rods will be shorter, by about .400" - .450".
- 6. See #7. Just as a point of reference I'm running a Comp XR282HR in my (carbed) 400, and it's a daily driver; but it's about on the ragged edge of what I would consider acceptable for grocery-cart use. And I usually err on the side of too much cam. Alot of people would find my combo unacceptable. I'd suggest something in that series, maybe the next step down which I believe is a XR276HR. You'll need the roller timing set and a cam button.
Learn to change the oil sometime between now and build-up time.
------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports
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Joined: Sep 1999
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From: Philly, PA
There's only a few things you really need to know about the 400, other than the fact it is "10 lbs of engine in a 5lb bag."
1: Steam holes. Your heads (whichever ones you use- aluminum or cast rion, stock or aftermarket, MUST be drilled for them). You can do this yourself on your workbench with a hand drill IF you know how (feel free to send an email and I'll give you the details if you want)
2: Compression. It's easy to run the squeeze through the roof with 400 cubes!! If you're gonna use the Iron Eagles (like I do) you'll want the 72cc versions. EVEN THEN YOU WILL WANT NOTHING MORE THAN FLATTOPS. I jsut sent you an email with a compression ratio checker spreadsheet so you can run some what-if scenarios. 10:1 is near the upper limit using the Iron Eagles and a mild-to-moderate performance cam. Flattops and 72cc heads is 10.5:1!!
Anyone telling you they are running 11:1 squeeze with cast iron heads on a 400 is smoking something funny. YES, you can get it to run but you won't be able to run full spark advance on pump gas which will cost you more HP than the extra squeeze will make for you. Don't go nuts with compression.
3. The engine is FREAKIN' BIG! Big ports and lumpy cams that would drown a little 350 will be happy campers feeding the "Super Mouse." I use the 200cc Iron Eagles and they lost NO bottom end to my 170cc S/R Torquers and the top end was night-and-day improvement. 215s it could probably swallow, too, but they aren't really needed unless you are gonna run a reall stout cam. Their flow improvement is all in the extreme lift areas.
Odds-n-ends: Stright plugs will fit with your headers. Stock heads have stright plugs and so do the Iron Eagles although they point slightly DOWN out of the heads- SLIGHTLY! Angle plugs may actually CAUSE header clearance issues but you can decide for yourself.
Valvetrain is a no-brainer for 6500. Just get the right valvesprings in your heads. Iron Eagles are nice becuase they have the same installed height for the valvesprings as stock, so spring selection in easy. Forget the roller rockers. Put your money somewhere it will make a difference. I run 1.6:1 roller tipped stamped steel rockers I bought from Summit for only $100 and like them just fine. I've spun the motor as high as 6800 and never a problem.
I ran 12.99 @ 108 with my 400 running a 266* grind Crane cam, Iron Eagles and a Quadrajet carb, with the rings on their way out! I would estimate about 385HP out of that combo.
5.7" rods aren't needed and will probably require clearancing the block and rod bolts to keep from hitting various things. I used the shortie rods with no problems. Honestly, if you're gonna use longer rods you're better off going all the way up to 6"ers. 5.7s make almost NO difference in rod/stroke ratio (1.48 to 1.52) where 6"ers will take you all the way up to 1.60- almost as good as a stock 350. Bit if you've already got 'em laying around...
Forged pistons and a cast crank is jsut fine. The pistons take a heck of a beating so stepping up to forged is just fine. You can run a cast crank right up to the 500HP level with little problem.
1: Steam holes. Your heads (whichever ones you use- aluminum or cast rion, stock or aftermarket, MUST be drilled for them). You can do this yourself on your workbench with a hand drill IF you know how (feel free to send an email and I'll give you the details if you want)
2: Compression. It's easy to run the squeeze through the roof with 400 cubes!! If you're gonna use the Iron Eagles (like I do) you'll want the 72cc versions. EVEN THEN YOU WILL WANT NOTHING MORE THAN FLATTOPS. I jsut sent you an email with a compression ratio checker spreadsheet so you can run some what-if scenarios. 10:1 is near the upper limit using the Iron Eagles and a mild-to-moderate performance cam. Flattops and 72cc heads is 10.5:1!!
Anyone telling you they are running 11:1 squeeze with cast iron heads on a 400 is smoking something funny. YES, you can get it to run but you won't be able to run full spark advance on pump gas which will cost you more HP than the extra squeeze will make for you. Don't go nuts with compression.
3. The engine is FREAKIN' BIG! Big ports and lumpy cams that would drown a little 350 will be happy campers feeding the "Super Mouse." I use the 200cc Iron Eagles and they lost NO bottom end to my 170cc S/R Torquers and the top end was night-and-day improvement. 215s it could probably swallow, too, but they aren't really needed unless you are gonna run a reall stout cam. Their flow improvement is all in the extreme lift areas.
Odds-n-ends: Stright plugs will fit with your headers. Stock heads have stright plugs and so do the Iron Eagles although they point slightly DOWN out of the heads- SLIGHTLY! Angle plugs may actually CAUSE header clearance issues but you can decide for yourself.
Valvetrain is a no-brainer for 6500. Just get the right valvesprings in your heads. Iron Eagles are nice becuase they have the same installed height for the valvesprings as stock, so spring selection in easy. Forget the roller rockers. Put your money somewhere it will make a difference. I run 1.6:1 roller tipped stamped steel rockers I bought from Summit for only $100 and like them just fine. I've spun the motor as high as 6800 and never a problem.
I ran 12.99 @ 108 with my 400 running a 266* grind Crane cam, Iron Eagles and a Quadrajet carb, with the rings on their way out! I would estimate about 385HP out of that combo.
5.7" rods aren't needed and will probably require clearancing the block and rod bolts to keep from hitting various things. I used the shortie rods with no problems. Honestly, if you're gonna use longer rods you're better off going all the way up to 6"ers. 5.7s make almost NO difference in rod/stroke ratio (1.48 to 1.52) where 6"ers will take you all the way up to 1.60- almost as good as a stock 350. Bit if you've already got 'em laying around...
Forged pistons and a cast crank is jsut fine. The pistons take a heck of a beating so stepping up to forged is just fine. You can run a cast crank right up to the 500HP level with little problem.
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There really isn’t anything real special in building a 400 like everyone seems to think. You really should wait until you can get your intake squared away. Forget the stock crank. You can buy a brand new nodular iron or cast steel crank for about the same price it would cost to have that stock crank ground and polished.
1. Under 10.1 w/iron heads, under 10.9 w/aluminum heads.
2. 200cc w/bowl work should be fine for a street motor.
3. Keith Black hypereutectic or TRW/Speed-Pro forged pistons will be fine. If you’re going to go with NOS or forced induction go with the TRW/Speed-Pro.
4. I myself prefer Crower stainless full roller rockers. Go with 1.6’s. You can never have enough lift, just make sure you’re springs are setup for it.
5. Most of the major brand hyd. roller lifters out there are made by Speed-Pro/Federal-Mogul. Buy the one with the cheapest price tag.
6. Your camshaft choice is dictated by what intake you use. I myself use a custom ground hyd. roller (236/244 dur@.050”, .555”/.571” lift w/1.6rr, 112 LSA). For a street motor like what you’re planning, use a cam with around 220/230 dur@.050”, .530”-.540” lift & 112 LSA.
7. The SuperRam & Miniram are both great manifolds. I use both right now. Two totally different characteristics. Forget about using the stock TPI. If you have to hold on the motor build-up until you get an intake, then wait. Build your motor right the first time and be done with it.
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N/A 406, TPIS Miniram, 58mm TB, 30lbs injectors, Custom Ground Elgin Cam, Ported TFS heads, SLP 1-3/4", & DFI computer.
11.70@117mph
1. Under 10.1 w/iron heads, under 10.9 w/aluminum heads.
2. 200cc w/bowl work should be fine for a street motor.
3. Keith Black hypereutectic or TRW/Speed-Pro forged pistons will be fine. If you’re going to go with NOS or forced induction go with the TRW/Speed-Pro.
4. I myself prefer Crower stainless full roller rockers. Go with 1.6’s. You can never have enough lift, just make sure you’re springs are setup for it.
5. Most of the major brand hyd. roller lifters out there are made by Speed-Pro/Federal-Mogul. Buy the one with the cheapest price tag.
6. Your camshaft choice is dictated by what intake you use. I myself use a custom ground hyd. roller (236/244 dur@.050”, .555”/.571” lift w/1.6rr, 112 LSA). For a street motor like what you’re planning, use a cam with around 220/230 dur@.050”, .530”-.540” lift & 112 LSA.
7. The SuperRam & Miniram are both great manifolds. I use both right now. Two totally different characteristics. Forget about using the stock TPI. If you have to hold on the motor build-up until you get an intake, then wait. Build your motor right the first time and be done with it.
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N/A 406, TPIS Miniram, 58mm TB, 30lbs injectors, Custom Ground Elgin Cam, Ported TFS heads, SLP 1-3/4", & DFI computer.
11.70@117mph
Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
From: AZ Desert
You said 400 RWHP as in Rear Wheel HorsePower, right? So that means you're looking for 500-550 at the crank. At this level, a forged crank & a decent set of rods should be considered mandatory. Sure a stock crank may live for a little while but I wouldn't risk it. Converting the block to splayed caps will also help the bottom end hold together. You're not beefing up the bottom end for the RPM, you're beefing up the bottom end to survive 500HP worth of pounding.
Heads: Think AFR.
Rockers: Stay with the 1.5's & buy the cam with the correct lift ground into it.
Heads: Think AFR.
Rockers: Stay with the 1.5's & buy the cam with the correct lift ground into it.
Supreme Member
Joined: Aug 1999
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From: College Station, Tex USA
Car: 89rs
Engine: 400Sb
Transmission: Tremec 3550
allow me to quote one of my 400 mentors
From: cam406@aol.com (Cam406)
Newsgroups: alt.autos.camaro.firebird
Subject: Re: keep the cubes? 406v383
Date: 24 Jan 1998 19:19:18 GMT
Lines: 74
ps, this guy had built over 150 400s as of early 98. and you can now get a new cast 400 crank for less money than it would take to rebuild a factory crank. I just got one like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cg...item=577672123 actually i got a whole rotating assembly from dynoflow with SRP pistons, C&A gapless rings and CAT 4340 I beam cap-screw rods.
one other thing, your probably talking about a max of about 420 engine HP. That is going to be about the limit for a tpi intake. It will have 500+ ft/lbs of torque but at 4500 rpm (about the limit for a tpi according to TPIS insider hints), that is 428 hp.
[This message has been edited by jcb999 (edited April 11, 2001).]
From: cam406@aol.com (Cam406)
Newsgroups: alt.autos.camaro.firebird
Subject: Re: keep the cubes? 406v383
Date: 24 Jan 1998 19:19:18 GMT
Lines: 74
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Yah, listen to Justin. The few extra cubes aren't worth it. NOT. Yes they are. Really, I hate recomending 400's, because it is getting hard to find a decent core. Why? They are popular. Why?They make killer power. I can almost gaurentee that your cooling problem is assaciated to no steam holes in your cylinder heads. There is a few other things you can do to help the 400 with even cooling. Restrict the cooling passages on the deck surface, by threading them fore a big core plug, then drilling a small hole in them to restrict coolant.
These are the biggest holes at the top of the deck. Restrict it? Yes. This also strengthens the block deck. Any good engine shop will know what this mod is, and can do it for you. Just remember, steam holes in the heads are mandatory if you drive it on the street. I wouldn't run a 400 without them regardless of the application myself. I have been running 400's for years, and personaly will never run a 350 again, in my own personal cars. Because remember, there is only one replacement for cubic inches, and that is more cubic inches! I would run 5.7 inch rods, although my current motor in my 73 Camaro uses 5.56 inch stock rods, the 5.7 rods are a little better. Also, run a Ross, or JE piston, to get rid of some piston mass. Either will save over 100 grams each. Also, run the new Lunati street/race rod. A nice piece, used them in a motor recently, and it hasn't had any time on the track yet, it made 12 dyno pulls. They are a nice rod for $400. The stock crank is fine, to 7000 and 600hp, as long as you reduce the piston mass, which either of the above pistons will do. Just keep in mind that 400's have a big swept volume, so it is easy to get compression. 0-deck, 64cc chambers, and a flat top piston will give you 11.5:1, so keep that in mind if you want to run pump gas. A little more about the crank. The above levels assume a drag race engine, short bursts, etc., it wouldn't live real long at those levels in a circle track car. Also, if you plan on running NOS, take it easy with the stock crank, just keep the total power output at or near 600 hp max to be safe. With a good aftermarket crank, a good low cost steel crank is the Summit Pro-line, I use these a lot, and never had a problem. They are actualy made by BRC for Summit, then, Don't worry about it, juice the snot out of it. What heads? I like Dart Sportsman 2's, with what I call a maximum
enhance port work. My cylinder head philosophy is this. Start with the correct
castings for the application, and minimal port work is required to make good power with out killing your budget. On these castings, a complete bowl port, including guide boss stream liming, short side and bowl blending, and a slight runner clean-up. It isn.t opened up at all, just blended and shaped, the roof area is smoothed and blended all the way to the bowl area, and the pushrod restriction is reduced by no more than 1/16th to 1/8th of an inch at it's narrowest point, and the radius is blended. Also, the roof to wall, and floor to wall radius's are increased slightly, use a 1/2 inch flame shaped carbide cutter, and blend these areas to the foor and the roof. The final port volume comes in at 208cc, and with a 2.02 valve, will flow 258 at .500 lift, with a peak of 264 at .600 lift. The exhaust side gets the same bowl work, and open the port internaly on the cylinder side of the port, no need to raise the roof, just clean up the whole port, and lightly polish it. The ehhaust will flow 188 at .500, and near 200 cfm at .600 lift. These heads will make well over 500 hp on a 11.5:1 406, with a decent solid lifter cam, Victor jr, and a 3310 holley, with 1 3/4 inch headers. Or, simply pick up the phone, call AFR order there 210 race ready cylinder heads, $1399 ready to bolt on, figure out the desired compression ratio, and order the appropriate chamber volume, and hang on. I have made 611 hp with these exact heads on an 11.5:1 406 with a healthy Ultradyne roller cam, and they don't hurt the bottom end at all. I have made 640hp with Afr 220 race readies on a similiar 434. Oh yah, the 406 above made 530 ft/lbs at 4800and 5000 rpm, the 434 made 570 ft/bls! Keep in mind, the 434 with flat tops had 12.5 :1 with a 62 cc chamber. I kind of rambled, but I just wanted to let everyone know what is possible when you get serious. And, these above motors are not maxed out at all. They are as budget conscience as possble, the heads aren't maxed out, the cam timing, although wild compared to the numbers thrown around on this news group, are conservative, and the compression was kept within reason, no 14:1 ratio as some motors run these days. The milder ratios keep fuel costs down, and still make power, c16 116 octane, mandatory at 14:1, costs 7-8 bucks a gallon! Where as 108 octane race fuel is $3 dollars a gallon, and both motors run fine with a mix of non-oxyginated 92, and 108, about 2 parts 108 to 1 part 92, further reducing fuel costs. If any nitrous is used, straight race fuel is recomended. Oh yah, On milder hydraulic cam, pump gas 400"s, mildly prepared Dart s/r's are the best choice, they will make more power than any of the $1000 dollar aluminum heads on the market, and save you quite a bit of money, I sell them for $850 ready to run, just for an example, and are much more durable too. I do build 383's and 350's too, as well as big-block chevy's, and some Mopar
stuff occasionaly, mainly for my dad, he is a mopar freak, and can help with
combos for those too.
</font>
Yah, listen to Justin. The few extra cubes aren't worth it. NOT. Yes they are. Really, I hate recomending 400's, because it is getting hard to find a decent core. Why? They are popular. Why?They make killer power. I can almost gaurentee that your cooling problem is assaciated to no steam holes in your cylinder heads. There is a few other things you can do to help the 400 with even cooling. Restrict the cooling passages on the deck surface, by threading them fore a big core plug, then drilling a small hole in them to restrict coolant.
These are the biggest holes at the top of the deck. Restrict it? Yes. This also strengthens the block deck. Any good engine shop will know what this mod is, and can do it for you. Just remember, steam holes in the heads are mandatory if you drive it on the street. I wouldn't run a 400 without them regardless of the application myself. I have been running 400's for years, and personaly will never run a 350 again, in my own personal cars. Because remember, there is only one replacement for cubic inches, and that is more cubic inches! I would run 5.7 inch rods, although my current motor in my 73 Camaro uses 5.56 inch stock rods, the 5.7 rods are a little better. Also, run a Ross, or JE piston, to get rid of some piston mass. Either will save over 100 grams each. Also, run the new Lunati street/race rod. A nice piece, used them in a motor recently, and it hasn't had any time on the track yet, it made 12 dyno pulls. They are a nice rod for $400. The stock crank is fine, to 7000 and 600hp, as long as you reduce the piston mass, which either of the above pistons will do. Just keep in mind that 400's have a big swept volume, so it is easy to get compression. 0-deck, 64cc chambers, and a flat top piston will give you 11.5:1, so keep that in mind if you want to run pump gas. A little more about the crank. The above levels assume a drag race engine, short bursts, etc., it wouldn't live real long at those levels in a circle track car. Also, if you plan on running NOS, take it easy with the stock crank, just keep the total power output at or near 600 hp max to be safe. With a good aftermarket crank, a good low cost steel crank is the Summit Pro-line, I use these a lot, and never had a problem. They are actualy made by BRC for Summit, then, Don't worry about it, juice the snot out of it. What heads? I like Dart Sportsman 2's, with what I call a maximum
enhance port work. My cylinder head philosophy is this. Start with the correct
castings for the application, and minimal port work is required to make good power with out killing your budget. On these castings, a complete bowl port, including guide boss stream liming, short side and bowl blending, and a slight runner clean-up. It isn.t opened up at all, just blended and shaped, the roof area is smoothed and blended all the way to the bowl area, and the pushrod restriction is reduced by no more than 1/16th to 1/8th of an inch at it's narrowest point, and the radius is blended. Also, the roof to wall, and floor to wall radius's are increased slightly, use a 1/2 inch flame shaped carbide cutter, and blend these areas to the foor and the roof. The final port volume comes in at 208cc, and with a 2.02 valve, will flow 258 at .500 lift, with a peak of 264 at .600 lift. The exhaust side gets the same bowl work, and open the port internaly on the cylinder side of the port, no need to raise the roof, just clean up the whole port, and lightly polish it. The ehhaust will flow 188 at .500, and near 200 cfm at .600 lift. These heads will make well over 500 hp on a 11.5:1 406, with a decent solid lifter cam, Victor jr, and a 3310 holley, with 1 3/4 inch headers. Or, simply pick up the phone, call AFR order there 210 race ready cylinder heads, $1399 ready to bolt on, figure out the desired compression ratio, and order the appropriate chamber volume, and hang on. I have made 611 hp with these exact heads on an 11.5:1 406 with a healthy Ultradyne roller cam, and they don't hurt the bottom end at all. I have made 640hp with Afr 220 race readies on a similiar 434. Oh yah, the 406 above made 530 ft/lbs at 4800and 5000 rpm, the 434 made 570 ft/bls! Keep in mind, the 434 with flat tops had 12.5 :1 with a 62 cc chamber. I kind of rambled, but I just wanted to let everyone know what is possible when you get serious. And, these above motors are not maxed out at all. They are as budget conscience as possble, the heads aren't maxed out, the cam timing, although wild compared to the numbers thrown around on this news group, are conservative, and the compression was kept within reason, no 14:1 ratio as some motors run these days. The milder ratios keep fuel costs down, and still make power, c16 116 octane, mandatory at 14:1, costs 7-8 bucks a gallon! Where as 108 octane race fuel is $3 dollars a gallon, and both motors run fine with a mix of non-oxyginated 92, and 108, about 2 parts 108 to 1 part 92, further reducing fuel costs. If any nitrous is used, straight race fuel is recomended. Oh yah, On milder hydraulic cam, pump gas 400"s, mildly prepared Dart s/r's are the best choice, they will make more power than any of the $1000 dollar aluminum heads on the market, and save you quite a bit of money, I sell them for $850 ready to run, just for an example, and are much more durable too. I do build 383's and 350's too, as well as big-block chevy's, and some Mopar
stuff occasionaly, mainly for my dad, he is a mopar freak, and can help with
combos for those too.
</font>
one other thing, your probably talking about a max of about 420 engine HP. That is going to be about the limit for a tpi intake. It will have 500+ ft/lbs of torque but at 4500 rpm (about the limit for a tpi according to TPIS insider hints), that is 428 hp.
[This message has been edited by jcb999 (edited April 11, 2001).]
Supreme Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,264
Likes: 0
whoa whoa whoa
I dont know what sorta drivetrain you Got, But 150 HP loss ?
NFL, even with the worst of setups hahaha.
------------------
60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver
Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype
I dont know what sorta drivetrain you Got, But 150 HP loss ?
NFL, even with the worst of setups hahaha.
------------------
60 Ranchero - Project ( Money Hole )
85 Sport Coupe LG4 - Daily Driver
Just another Hot Rod kid, or thats what they all tell me.
Livin' the Stereotype
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,411
Likes: 3
From: Rock Hill, SC
Car: 1999 Pontiac T/A Firehawk
Engine: ***'s Engine
Transmission: T56
Excellent! Got some good information here, gents.
Let me address a couple of points that have been brought up.
Compression Ratio: I've always been told 10:1 was pretty much the practical limit with iron heads (with aluminum heads allowing you roughly another point) without special work. I was originally going to shoot for 10:1, and working with my own compression ratio calculations realized very quickly that was going to require the larger combustion chambers and most likely dished pistons. I think some people who say "stay away from dished piston" have never run the numbers on the larger-bore 400. I wasn't able to get below 10:1 with flattops, which is why i asked the piston and the compression ratio question in the first place. Apparently, neither has Damon; that makes me feel better that I didn't totally screw up the calculations.
Rotating Assembly: Part of my reason for wanting to use the stock crank was for monetary issues. With all my other projects going on, extra money in the bottom end means less money in the top end (where the power is). If I can run stock crank, stock rods, stock balancer, etc, I am that much closer to a better intake, and hopefully a better performing engine.
The reason for the 5.7" rods was from everyone telling me that the 5.565" (think that's right) rods are total junk and aren't to be used in any sort of performance motor. Have I been misled there? I'm committed to external balance for this motor, as RB83L69 pointed out, so if the main reason for 5.7" rods is for internal balancing purposes I'll skip them. I thought the smaller rods caused the increased sidewall friction that resulted in the blocks wearing out back when the 400 SBC was first released. It's a concern to me because I have two stock bore 400 blocks that still have the honing pattern visible, and no ridge. (It's debatable if the honing pattern is the factory hone or not, but regardless, these blocks have been subjected to nothing more than a cleanup hone or two).
I will take the collective advice and go ahead and run forged pistons, since they are not much more money (unlike stepping up to a forged crank!).
Top end: The 200cc Darts is probably what I'm going to use, as far as the headers, these headers were DESIGNED for the L98 angle plug heads, so I'm not sure if they'll interfere with straight plugs or not. If not, I'd rather have straight; angle plugs are a pain.
Steam holes, absolutely, I forgot to mention I knew about those.
HP goals: Yes, I said 400 RWHP. I did a little bit of calculation and came up with about 480 crank for that. That should be plenty for this car. 550hp?? No way that I see.
I did a little checking when I was doing some research on the 84, and found that ~410rwhp would give me about a flat 12 in the quarter, assuming optimum conditions (before you jump on, me that car is a lot lighter than the 91 this 400 will go in and is setup for the track, plus it is a manual tranny car so the drivetrain should be a little more efficient). At any rate, a flat 12 is more than I need from this car, but I'd love about 12.3 or so. I think that's doable with what I have as long as I pick the right parts.
Go ahead, tell me I'm crazy in building a stick car for the street/strip and an auto for the street only. You won't be the first.
And oh, RB83L69? I've changed the oil on the ZZ4 twice and on the Hawk once. And, I guess half a change on the 91, since I drained it before I pulled the motor. But I absolutely was not kidding about swapping the ZZ4 into my original 2.8L V6 car before I had ever done an oil change on any car.
I gotta head out the door, I'll be back to this thread later tonight.
------------------
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master"
'84 Black Camaro ZZ4 M5 (V-6 in a former life) -- street beast
'91 Medium Blue Metallic Z28 A4 (UB-HSTRY's old ride) -- currently broken
'99 Navy Blue Metallic Firehawk #120 M6 (99.44% stock) -- daily driver
Let me address a couple of points that have been brought up.
Compression Ratio: I've always been told 10:1 was pretty much the practical limit with iron heads (with aluminum heads allowing you roughly another point) without special work. I was originally going to shoot for 10:1, and working with my own compression ratio calculations realized very quickly that was going to require the larger combustion chambers and most likely dished pistons. I think some people who say "stay away from dished piston" have never run the numbers on the larger-bore 400. I wasn't able to get below 10:1 with flattops, which is why i asked the piston and the compression ratio question in the first place. Apparently, neither has Damon; that makes me feel better that I didn't totally screw up the calculations.
Rotating Assembly: Part of my reason for wanting to use the stock crank was for monetary issues. With all my other projects going on, extra money in the bottom end means less money in the top end (where the power is). If I can run stock crank, stock rods, stock balancer, etc, I am that much closer to a better intake, and hopefully a better performing engine.
The reason for the 5.7" rods was from everyone telling me that the 5.565" (think that's right) rods are total junk and aren't to be used in any sort of performance motor. Have I been misled there? I'm committed to external balance for this motor, as RB83L69 pointed out, so if the main reason for 5.7" rods is for internal balancing purposes I'll skip them. I thought the smaller rods caused the increased sidewall friction that resulted in the blocks wearing out back when the 400 SBC was first released. It's a concern to me because I have two stock bore 400 blocks that still have the honing pattern visible, and no ridge. (It's debatable if the honing pattern is the factory hone or not, but regardless, these blocks have been subjected to nothing more than a cleanup hone or two).
I will take the collective advice and go ahead and run forged pistons, since they are not much more money (unlike stepping up to a forged crank!).
Top end: The 200cc Darts is probably what I'm going to use, as far as the headers, these headers were DESIGNED for the L98 angle plug heads, so I'm not sure if they'll interfere with straight plugs or not. If not, I'd rather have straight; angle plugs are a pain.
Steam holes, absolutely, I forgot to mention I knew about those.
HP goals: Yes, I said 400 RWHP. I did a little bit of calculation and came up with about 480 crank for that. That should be plenty for this car. 550hp?? No way that I see.
I did a little checking when I was doing some research on the 84, and found that ~410rwhp would give me about a flat 12 in the quarter, assuming optimum conditions (before you jump on, me that car is a lot lighter than the 91 this 400 will go in and is setup for the track, plus it is a manual tranny car so the drivetrain should be a little more efficient). At any rate, a flat 12 is more than I need from this car, but I'd love about 12.3 or so. I think that's doable with what I have as long as I pick the right parts.
Go ahead, tell me I'm crazy in building a stick car for the street/strip and an auto for the street only. You won't be the first
.And oh, RB83L69? I've changed the oil on the ZZ4 twice and on the Hawk once. And, I guess half a change on the 91, since I drained it before I pulled the motor. But I absolutely was not kidding about swapping the ZZ4 into my original 2.8L V6 car before I had ever done an oil change on any car.
I gotta head out the door, I'll be back to this thread later tonight.
------------------
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master"
'84 Black Camaro ZZ4 M5 (V-6 in a former life) -- street beast
'91 Medium Blue Metallic Z28 A4 (UB-HSTRY's old ride) -- currently broken
'99 Navy Blue Metallic Firehawk #120 M6 (99.44% stock) -- daily driver
Banned
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,429
Likes: 0
From: Belleville, IL USA
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 99Hawk120:
Since this is my first "real" engine build, I'm looking for some advice, particularly in the valvetrain area. My goal for this engine is about 400 RWHP on 93 octane, EVENTUALLY. It's going to sit in front of a fairly built 700R4.
And yes, I realize that building a 400 is probably not the first engine you should build. That's okay, I always bite off more than I can chew--you probably shouldn't swap out an entire driveline before you learn to change the oil, either.
Here's the current plan:
I think that's the main components.
Here's the questions:
#1) What kind of compression ratio can I run, with iron heads, and still run on 93 octane? I've heard anywhere from 9:1 to 10:1.
#2) What size intake port should I get on the Dart heads? I've heard 200cc from a NUMBER of places.
#3) Pistons... obviously piston configuration (dished or flat) will be determined by the answer to question #1 and the combustion chamber size I end up using. What I don't know is if I should spend the extra cash on Forged pistons even if I am using a stock cast crank.
#4) Rockers... I want to use FULL roller, not just roller tip. Probably stick with 1.5 ratio unless there's a good reason to step up to 1.6... Anyone have any suggestions on which ones to get?
#5) Lifters... I am going to use retrofit hydraulic rollers (yes, I am building a full roller 400, this should be fun). I don't have enough information to know which brands are good however.
#6) Camshaft. I'm totally lost here. Without any experience, I don't have any idea what a good cam would be to run in a 400. I don't mind a lumpy idle at all (hell, a little lumpy is good), but this car is going to be almost all street and very little track, so a super high-rpm cam is not desired, nor do I want to spend the money on beefing up the bottom end and valvetrain to take more than 6000rpm.
#7) Intake. Yeah, I know, the stock TPI is an absolutely lousy choice and will probably choke a 400 by 3500 rpms. Don't worry, it won't be staying. It's just that I can't afford a miniram/superram and the engine build at the same time, and I'd kind of like to get the car MOVING under its own power. I don't really care that much if it is way below potential with the stock TPI (and it will be) as long as it drives acceptably (no bucking, stalling, and I'd like it to at least match stock SD L98 times).
Opinions, suggestions, and yes,flames welcome
</font>
Since this is my first "real" engine build, I'm looking for some advice, particularly in the valvetrain area. My goal for this engine is about 400 RWHP on 93 octane, EVENTUALLY. It's going to sit in front of a fairly built 700R4.
And yes, I realize that building a 400 is probably not the first engine you should build. That's okay, I always bite off more than I can chew--you probably shouldn't swap out an entire driveline before you learn to change the oil, either.
Here's the current plan:
I think that's the main components.
Here's the questions:
#1) What kind of compression ratio can I run, with iron heads, and still run on 93 octane? I've heard anywhere from 9:1 to 10:1.
#2) What size intake port should I get on the Dart heads? I've heard 200cc from a NUMBER of places.
#3) Pistons... obviously piston configuration (dished or flat) will be determined by the answer to question #1 and the combustion chamber size I end up using. What I don't know is if I should spend the extra cash on Forged pistons even if I am using a stock cast crank.
#4) Rockers... I want to use FULL roller, not just roller tip. Probably stick with 1.5 ratio unless there's a good reason to step up to 1.6... Anyone have any suggestions on which ones to get?
#5) Lifters... I am going to use retrofit hydraulic rollers (yes, I am building a full roller 400, this should be fun). I don't have enough information to know which brands are good however.
#6) Camshaft. I'm totally lost here. Without any experience, I don't have any idea what a good cam would be to run in a 400. I don't mind a lumpy idle at all (hell, a little lumpy is good), but this car is going to be almost all street and very little track, so a super high-rpm cam is not desired, nor do I want to spend the money on beefing up the bottom end and valvetrain to take more than 6000rpm.
#7) Intake. Yeah, I know, the stock TPI is an absolutely lousy choice and will probably choke a 400 by 3500 rpms. Don't worry, it won't be staying. It's just that I can't afford a miniram/superram and the engine build at the same time, and I'd kind of like to get the car MOVING under its own power. I don't really care that much if it is way below potential with the stock TPI (and it will be) as long as it drives acceptably (no bucking, stalling, and I'd like it to at least match stock SD L98 times).
Opinions, suggestions, and yes,flames welcome
</font>
1. 10:1 max
2. 200cc is fine
3. yes go with forged flattops
4. full rollers, biggest ratio possible
5. Comp or Crower
6. I use an LPE camshaft
7. Suggest a carburetor
------------------
*I do custom performance mods on Edlebrock Performer carburetors (dualplane intake mods in the works),
White 1986 Irocz, 305 with iron #416 heads,
383 with aluminum TFS heads,
Edlebrock Performer-RPM intake and Performer #1407 carburetor, +110hp shot of crack, 700R-4 tranny, Vigilante 2400 lockup converter, 3.25:1 Ford 9" rear, Mcreary Road-Stars, SLP-stainless 1.75" shortie headers & Y-pipe, single 3" Borla exhaust, Linginfelter-TPI camshaft part number 74216 pulls 17" vacuum solid. Cam specs 213/219 @.050 114-LSA, sometimes advertised at 216/219 @.050 112-LSA .462/.470 lift @1.5:1 ratio. Using Harland Sharp 1.65:1 roller rockers. MSD-6AL, billet distributor, multi-retard, blaster-3 coil, and RPM switch. SouthSide machine subframe connectors, SSM lift-bars, Moroso 4" underdrive crank pulley.
N/A runs 10.9 @124,
Crack-runs 10.3 @135
haven't run at track since Oct-99
* vizit miy homepayge * http://www.geocities.com/trailerparkpage/
Supreme Member
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,443
Likes: 0
From: College Station, Tex USA
Car: 89rs
Engine: 400Sb
Transmission: Tremec 3550
I dont agree with the statement that the only reason to go with 5.7 rods is to allow internal balancing. The main reason I see is to allow a much wider selection of piston choices (lighter) and ring configurations. You don't find many high performance pistons designed for the 5.565 rods. The only real advantage to internal balancing is the reuse of 350 parts. There is no real hp gain in an internal balanced conbination over ext.
Once you take a stock rod, resize the big-end and put in rod bolts, you will have 150 bucks in them. You can buy a new set of 5140 rods for about that same price on ebay.
[This message has been edited by jcb999 (edited April 12, 2001).]
Once you take a stock rod, resize the big-end and put in rod bolts, you will have 150 bucks in them. You can buy a new set of 5140 rods for about that same price on ebay.
[This message has been edited by jcb999 (edited April 12, 2001).]
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,411
Likes: 3
From: Rock Hill, SC
Car: 1999 Pontiac T/A Firehawk
Engine: ***'s Engine
Transmission: T56
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The ODB:
7. Suggest a carburetor</font>
7. Suggest a carburetor</font>
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43
Likes: 1
From: Auburn, WA
Car: '84 Z28 Camaro
Engine: 305 V8 5.0L H.O.
Transmission: T5 manual 5-speed
I can tell u rite now the 400 is not the way to go, it was a poorly made engine. if that is an origional 400 and u build that up u will end up cracking the head and the cylinder walls. the way the original 400 was made was weak, which made it highly succeptible to cracking. without getting an after market engine or a reinforced head, that engine will blow after 200/300,000 miles.
Supreme Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,743
Likes: 0
From: heartland
Car: 89rs (previous 2.8)
Engine: 406
Transmission: 700r4 (for now)
Originally posted by VashtheStampede
I can tell u rite now the 400 is not the way to go, it was a poorly made engine. if that is an origional 400 and u build that up u will end up cracking the head and the cylinder walls. the way the original 400 was made was weak, which made it highly succeptible to cracking. without getting an after market engine or a reinforced head, that engine will blow after 200/300,000 miles.
I can tell u rite now the 400 is not the way to go, it was a poorly made engine. if that is an origional 400 and u build that up u will end up cracking the head and the cylinder walls. the way the original 400 was made was weak, which made it highly succeptible to cracking. without getting an after market engine or a reinforced head, that engine will blow after 200/300,000 miles.
Supreme Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,355
Likes: 1
From: MN
Car: 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP
Engine: LS3
Transmission: 6L80E
Axle/Gears: 3.27
Originally posted by VashtheStampede
I can tell u rite now the 400 is not the way to go, it was a poorly made engine. if that is an origional 400 and u build that up u will end up cracking the head and the cylinder walls. the way the original 400 was made was weak, which made it highly succeptible to cracking. without getting an after market engine or a reinforced head, that engine will blow after 200/300,000 miles.
I can tell u rite now the 400 is not the way to go, it was a poorly made engine. if that is an origional 400 and u build that up u will end up cracking the head and the cylinder walls. the way the original 400 was made was weak, which made it highly succeptible to cracking. without getting an after market engine or a reinforced head, that engine will blow after 200/300,000 miles.
The heads and/or the block are NOT weak and are no more susceptible to cracking than other SBC heads/blocks. If you plan on consistantly overheating your engine, then expect cracks to occur.
Are your first 7 posts in the Street racing forum? lol...
Supreme Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,126
Likes: 765
From: Park City, UT
Car: '92 Corvette, '89 1/2-a-'Vette
Engine: LT1, L400
Transmission: ZF6, T5
Axle/Gears: 3.45, 3.31
99Hawk
Well, since you were asking this question 2 years ago, what did you end up doing? What were the results?
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,411
Likes: 3
From: Rock Hill, SC
Car: 1999 Pontiac T/A Firehawk
Engine: ***'s Engine
Transmission: T56
I'm slow... the motor isn't done yet! I ended up building the carb'd motor first, and it's mocked up in the garage at the moment. I ended up with:
10:1 hypereutectic pistons
5.7" rods
stock crank
stock block 0.030" over
Pro Action Iron lightning heads, 72cc chamber, 200cc port
Comp cams XE274 camshaft, matching valve springs
Ford 351 pushrods (yeah, i know, i know)
Some off brand set of stainless steel 1.55 full roller RRs
ZZ4 intake manifold
Stock 79 vette Qjet rejetted
10:1 hypereutectic pistons
5.7" rods
stock crank
stock block 0.030" over
Pro Action Iron lightning heads, 72cc chamber, 200cc port
Comp cams XE274 camshaft, matching valve springs
Ford 351 pushrods (yeah, i know, i know)
Some off brand set of stainless steel 1.55 full roller RRs
ZZ4 intake manifold
Stock 79 vette Qjet rejetted
Supreme Member
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 18,457
Likes: 16
From: Loveland, OH, US
Car: 4
Engine: 6
Transmission: 5
Good combo, except:
Lose the smogger Q-Jet, its idle circuit will give you trouble, you'll hate driving it especially on cold days. Get a Holley 6211 (800 CFM spreadbore man sec dbl-pumper), bolts right up and fits just like a Q-Jet, except it will run a whole lot better than that smog M4M turd ever will.
I should know.... one of the iterations of my 400 was that cam, a Performer intake, and the 6211 carb.
Lose the smogger Q-Jet, its idle circuit will give you trouble, you'll hate driving it especially on cold days. Get a Holley 6211 (800 CFM spreadbore man sec dbl-pumper), bolts right up and fits just like a Q-Jet, except it will run a whole lot better than that smog M4M turd ever will.
I should know.... one of the iterations of my 400 was that cam, a Performer intake, and the 6211 carb.
Supreme Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,126
Likes: 765
From: Park City, UT
Car: '92 Corvette, '89 1/2-a-'Vette
Engine: LT1, L400
Transmission: ZF6, T5
Axle/Gears: 3.45, 3.31
Originally posted by 99Hawk120
I'm slow... the motor isn't done yet!
I'm slow... the motor isn't done yet!
I second what RB said about the carb. I know there may be budget constraints but look on ebay; it'll be worth your time.
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,411
Likes: 3
From: Rock Hill, SC
Car: 1999 Pontiac T/A Firehawk
Engine: ***'s Engine
Transmission: T56
I'd actually prefer to use a Qjet, but I've got a stock of them around. I'm sure I can find a NON-smogger one amongst my stash.
The car will still have to pass visual inspection so they'll fail it in 5 seconds with a holley on there. Fortunately, I no longer have to pass sniffer...
The car will still have to pass visual inspection so they'll fail it in 5 seconds with a holley on there. Fortunately, I no longer have to pass sniffer...
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 490
Likes: 0
From: E. Patchogue, NY
Car: '90 Iroc
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 5 spd
What are everyone's thoughts on a 400 (406,etc.) sbc with 200 or 215cc heads passing emissions with a fuel injected setup, in an application similar or slightly more powerful than the one discussed here? Thanks.
Supreme Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,743
Likes: 0
From: heartland
Car: 89rs (previous 2.8)
Engine: 406
Transmission: 700r4 (for now)
Never happen.....
As for the carb...mine has the 800cfi holley with mechanical secs' double pumper...tune in next week for a performance report!!!
As for the carb...mine has the 800cfi holley with mechanical secs' double pumper...tune in next week for a performance report!!!
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,411
Likes: 3
From: Rock Hill, SC
Car: 1999 Pontiac T/A Firehawk
Engine: ***'s Engine
Transmission: T56
Nah people just keep dragging it up from the depths... 
In answer to emissions--I guarantee with enough futzing I could get it to pass non-california emissions with a carb. Fuel Injection is not my bag (yet) so someone else will have to answer that.
Heck, I was pondering converting my 91 Z28 to TBI to pass emissions and then running carb 364 days out of the year (since it's so easy to swap between the two). I haven't decided if that's a good idea or not yet...
In answer to emissions--I guarantee with enough futzing I could get it to pass non-california emissions with a carb. Fuel Injection is not my bag (yet) so someone else will have to answer that.
Heck, I was pondering converting my 91 Z28 to TBI to pass emissions and then running carb 364 days out of the year (since it's so easy to swap between the two). I haven't decided if that's a good idea or not yet...
Supreme Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,519
Likes: 4
From: In the Garage
Car: Camaro
Engine: 6.2L
Transmission: T56
Back from the depths of dead again!
I have been searching relentlessly and found this thread had spent two years sleeping and was resurected and now I see its been two years since it was last posted on. I did this cause I figured you guys would have the most experience and be able to offer the best advice after all this time so I resurrected it once again. I hope you don't mind. So here goes...
I too have a virgin 400 that my father purchased brand new in 78 in a Suburban 4x4. It only has 50k miles on it so I am pretty sure its as good a find as any core although I have yet to yank it and open it up it did run fine when parked eons ago. Anyways I sold my crate engine from my 87 yesterday so I am about to commence the 400 build up for this spring and the plan is to acheive similar goals to what 99hawk was aiming for of around 500 horse 6000 RPM range. This will be primarily a street engine with trips to the track now and then both road course and drag.
I too thought that a longer rod swap was manditory but after reading RB's results I am now wondering if I should bother. I was planning on a 190-200 cc head and have noticed that tri state cylinder head has some 190cc aluminums claiming crazy flow numbers for 800 bucks. I have a non air gap performer RPM and vac sec 750 Holley that I was going to use and have not made a cam selection yet but will once I get the heads but it will be a non roller hydraulic. I will be using the stock crank provided it passes magnafluxing. I will likely run the hedman 1 5/8 longtubes which may be a tad small but the fitment is nice into a single mandrel bent 3" Flomaster for now. Maybe true duals later on.
So my questions are what heads would you guys recomend as the best bang for the buck now that there are so many new versions available? Obviously AFR are great but out of my price range. I want to keep the total head cost at a grand tops. Do you think I should get or stay away from aluminum? A cam recomendation would be welcome too if you have a proven combo that you think is great.
I also have searched and read up on many many different views on what rod/crank etc but I am seriously thinking about reusing the stock rods now and maybe even the pistons. I will take any news here flames or not as to why I should or shouldn't. If the pistons need to go so be it. If the rods are junk or good enough whatever just please let me know which ones would be ideal again keeping cost in mind. I am also very interested as to what you guys feel are the best piston rings to run.
I was also thinking of studding the mains and having them line honed. Do you guys feel this is necessary or not enough? Should I step up to a splayed four bolt conversion or is this not really required for this amount of power? Do you guys recomend studding or should I even bother? Is the line hone really necessary every time? What about the factory balancer? I have used OEM ones in the past and had good luck. Was I lucky?
I will be running this through a t56 with a brand new Mcleod street twin. I was also considering have the whole assembly balanced. Do you guys feel this is necessary or not worth the coin for my goals and better to spend this cost elsewhere. I have good connections to all the machine work but these guys do more what they are told than build performance combos so any help you guys have to offer would be greatly appreciated. Ultimately i would like a solid reliable engine that will run for may seasons rather than an all out screamer that needs a freshening every year. Thanks very much to any of you who help this build. I will post updates as I go and chassis dyno results upone completion sometime this coming warm season.
I have been searching relentlessly and found this thread had spent two years sleeping and was resurected and now I see its been two years since it was last posted on. I did this cause I figured you guys would have the most experience and be able to offer the best advice after all this time so I resurrected it once again. I hope you don't mind. So here goes...
I too have a virgin 400 that my father purchased brand new in 78 in a Suburban 4x4. It only has 50k miles on it so I am pretty sure its as good a find as any core although I have yet to yank it and open it up it did run fine when parked eons ago. Anyways I sold my crate engine from my 87 yesterday so I am about to commence the 400 build up for this spring and the plan is to acheive similar goals to what 99hawk was aiming for of around 500 horse 6000 RPM range. This will be primarily a street engine with trips to the track now and then both road course and drag.
I too thought that a longer rod swap was manditory but after reading RB's results I am now wondering if I should bother. I was planning on a 190-200 cc head and have noticed that tri state cylinder head has some 190cc aluminums claiming crazy flow numbers for 800 bucks. I have a non air gap performer RPM and vac sec 750 Holley that I was going to use and have not made a cam selection yet but will once I get the heads but it will be a non roller hydraulic. I will be using the stock crank provided it passes magnafluxing. I will likely run the hedman 1 5/8 longtubes which may be a tad small but the fitment is nice into a single mandrel bent 3" Flomaster for now. Maybe true duals later on.
So my questions are what heads would you guys recomend as the best bang for the buck now that there are so many new versions available? Obviously AFR are great but out of my price range. I want to keep the total head cost at a grand tops. Do you think I should get or stay away from aluminum? A cam recomendation would be welcome too if you have a proven combo that you think is great.
I also have searched and read up on many many different views on what rod/crank etc but I am seriously thinking about reusing the stock rods now and maybe even the pistons. I will take any news here flames or not as to why I should or shouldn't. If the pistons need to go so be it. If the rods are junk or good enough whatever just please let me know which ones would be ideal again keeping cost in mind. I am also very interested as to what you guys feel are the best piston rings to run.
I was also thinking of studding the mains and having them line honed. Do you guys feel this is necessary or not enough? Should I step up to a splayed four bolt conversion or is this not really required for this amount of power? Do you guys recomend studding or should I even bother? Is the line hone really necessary every time? What about the factory balancer? I have used OEM ones in the past and had good luck. Was I lucky?
I will be running this through a t56 with a brand new Mcleod street twin. I was also considering have the whole assembly balanced. Do you guys feel this is necessary or not worth the coin for my goals and better to spend this cost elsewhere. I have good connections to all the machine work but these guys do more what they are told than build performance combos so any help you guys have to offer would be greatly appreciated. Ultimately i would like a solid reliable engine that will run for may seasons rather than an all out screamer that needs a freshening every year. Thanks very much to any of you who help this build. I will post updates as I go and chassis dyno results upone completion sometime this coming warm season.
Last edited by cam-; Jan 21, 2005 at 01:43 PM.
Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
From: Illinois
Car: 89 TA
Engine: 413 TPI
Transmission: TKO 600
Axle/Gears: 3.42
I have to be doing the stupidest thing with a 400. Picked up a 400 block bored .060 over. Bought all the parts for it excpet the rotating asseblie. Thats the last thing I need to save up for.
The best part about it... TPI. Bigger base, bigger runners, and bigger throttle body.
I havnt had one person on here tell me that it isnt going to be a complete wast of time.
We'll see.
The best part about it... TPI. Bigger base, bigger runners, and bigger throttle body.
I havnt had one person on here tell me that it isnt going to be a complete wast of time.
We'll see.
Banned
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
Get rid of the TPI, let me say it again: GET RID OF THE TPI
I wouldn't rev over 6grand w/ stock crank, these guys saying 7k must like rebuilds. 600 hp on stock crank is really really pushing the limits.
I wouldn't blow money on forged unless i was running juice or if it was a daily driver.
I wouldn't rev over 6grand w/ stock crank, these guys saying 7k must like rebuilds. 600 hp on stock crank is really really pushing the limits.
I wouldn't blow money on forged unless i was running juice or if it was a daily driver.
Supreme Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,355
Likes: 1
From: MN
Car: 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP
Engine: LS3
Transmission: 6L80E
Axle/Gears: 3.27
400 bored .060 over? You must be lucky as most people don't recommend boring it over .040 over. Was the block sonic checked? Has it been run since it was bored to its current cylinder wall thickness?
Just curious...
Thanks,
Adam
Just curious...
Thanks,
Adam
Supreme Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,355
Likes: 1
From: MN
Car: 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP
Engine: LS3
Transmission: 6L80E
Axle/Gears: 3.27
good to know...my current 400 block is bored 0.030 over and since I went through 4 blocks before finding a good one...I would like to keep this one alive for a while
Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
From: Illinois
Car: 89 TA
Engine: 413 TPI
Transmission: TKO 600
Axle/Gears: 3.42
The bock has been sitting in my engine builders shop for a couple of years. No is hasnt been run since it was bored.
I dont know much about the 400 short block other than it was bored .030 over then the guy wanted it bored .030 over not knowing its was already .030 over anyway. So he never picked up his block and a couple years late my engine builder tells me he has a 400 block for $300 and a stock crank turned for $170. I have been putting off building this engine due to bills and my other car getting totalled last summer. In about 2 week I'm going to order pistons and rods for it then at the end of March it will be ready to go in my TA. And guess what, keeping my TPI.
Oh and if you really want to know the cylinder wall thinkness then let me know and I'll call him and get that spec.
I dont know much about the 400 short block other than it was bored .030 over then the guy wanted it bored .030 over not knowing its was already .030 over anyway. So he never picked up his block and a couple years late my engine builder tells me he has a 400 block for $300 and a stock crank turned for $170. I have been putting off building this engine due to bills and my other car getting totalled last summer. In about 2 week I'm going to order pistons and rods for it then at the end of March it will be ready to go in my TA. And guess what, keeping my TPI.
Oh and if you really want to know the cylinder wall thinkness then let me know and I'll call him and get that spec.
Member
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 200
Likes: 1
From: Minny
Car: One of 5
Engine: LB9
Transmission: 700R4
RB, how did the 406 like the XE274? I have a 406 dutweiller tfs heads, hsr and the xe274 flat tappet cam. Sitting on a engine stand waiting for april/may to swap. Just curious what kind of vacum and street manners you had.
Supreme Member
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 18,457
Likes: 16
From: Loveland, OH, US
Car: 4
Engine: 6
Transmission: 5
Wow, I can't believe a post this old came back up!!! All hail the 
function! Somebody must have used it.
Anyway, I really liked it. It ran REAL HARD, and people loved the way it sounded. It sounded "angry", like it wanted to jump up out of there and kill something. It had about 12-13" of vacuum at idle, with a 5-speed, which was plenty for the brakes.
OBTW, the car dyno'ed 274 RWHP and 373 RW ft-lbs, right behind a big block race car that did 330s HP and 350 some-odd ft-lbs (evidently needed some serious tuning); with that cam, double-hump heads, a Performer NOT RPM intake (yuck), Edelbrock TES, stock L69 exhaust including the cat, and the L69 air cleaner installed. Heard alot of "did you hear about the small block that out-torqued a stout big block" at the speed shop for the next few weeks. I never took it to the track, but on the street, it had a helluva 60'. It easily ran with the big block cars. One of the most fun encounters it had, in fact, was a 69 Chevelle SS convertible that had a 454 in it (alot like another car I have, except that the one was yellow, and mine is gold); good close race, but I took him. FWIW, he said his uncle had had that car to the track, and it ran a 12.8 or something. FWIW mind you, I don't consider that as "fact" or "proof", more of just a point of reference.
The XR282HR was ALOT more cam than the XE274, way more different than you would think, by just looking at the numbers.
I think you'll like the XE274. It's defintitely worth trying out and seeing.
function! Somebody must have used it.Anyway, I really liked it. It ran REAL HARD, and people loved the way it sounded. It sounded "angry", like it wanted to jump up out of there and kill something. It had about 12-13" of vacuum at idle, with a 5-speed, which was plenty for the brakes.
OBTW, the car dyno'ed 274 RWHP and 373 RW ft-lbs, right behind a big block race car that did 330s HP and 350 some-odd ft-lbs (evidently needed some serious tuning); with that cam, double-hump heads, a Performer NOT RPM intake (yuck), Edelbrock TES, stock L69 exhaust including the cat, and the L69 air cleaner installed. Heard alot of "did you hear about the small block that out-torqued a stout big block" at the speed shop for the next few weeks. I never took it to the track, but on the street, it had a helluva 60'. It easily ran with the big block cars. One of the most fun encounters it had, in fact, was a 69 Chevelle SS convertible that had a 454 in it (alot like another car I have, except that the one was yellow, and mine is gold); good close race, but I took him. FWIW, he said his uncle had had that car to the track, and it ran a 12.8 or something. FWIW mind you, I don't consider that as "fact" or "proof", more of just a point of reference.
The XR282HR was ALOT more cam than the XE274, way more different than you would think, by just looking at the numbers.
I think you'll like the XE274. It's defintitely worth trying out and seeing.
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: Loudon, NH
Car: 67 Chevy, 2000 Pontaic GTP
Engine: 415SBC Holley Stealth Ram
Transmission: 700R4
I was out searching for anyone who had chaged out from a 1.5 to a 1.6 rockers with the CompCams XR276HR and how much they may have gained from the swap, I know a lot of guys use this cam on 383's. Desktop Dyno doesnt really show any real acceptable reason to swap these out. So after reading through this post I thought I might add in my .02 worth here as well, I am running a 414CI with 10.25CR with the ProTopLine 220cc heads, Victor Jr intake and a BG 650 Mighty Demon & CompCams XM276HR cam w/Comp 1.52 rollers. Last year I had it dynoed 340HP & 350TQ at the rear wheels. As well last year I was running a set of those severely over priced Sanderson Block Huggers because of limited room, The open collector on the headers was 2 1/4" with the collector they give you to hook up your header pipe to was only 2". I think this was a deffinate bottle neck. Currently the vehicle is in a shop that makes up custom headers in which case I am going to a 3/4 length 1 3/4 tubes with a 3" collector to the rest of the exhuast at 2.5" and hoping to pickup at least 35/45+ HP/TQ to put me closer to the 400 at the rear wheels. Any Thoughts
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