Ok.. I think this may be the problem. Thing is my car won't start at all. No click from the solenoid, I don't think it's VATS (no error code, security light isn't on), I just put a new starter/solenoid in, new battery cables, I tested the clutch neutral saftey switch by rewiring/bypassing it, battery has plenty of juice, the fuseable links look ok. So the only thing left is the ignition switch. I had the steering wheel apart a month ago to tighten it so maybe I pulled on the wires too hard or something. Any thoughts? BTW I've been having this problem for the past 6 months, where I have to turn the key a few times and it will click each time until it starts. But I think that was the starter solenoid which I just replaced..

Thanks, any help appreciated


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4 bolt 350, 10.4:1 Compression, Edelbrock Aluminum Heads 6085, LT4 Hot Cam /w 1.6 full rollers (Crane), Scat Crank, SLP 1 3/4" Headers, SLP Cold Air Intake, Crane AFPR, 48mm TB, ported plenum, stock runners, Accel Super Ram intake manifold, 95Z #24 injectors, stock fuel rails, T5 Tranny, 3.45s, 9 bolt rear, 4 wheel discs, BFG Comp T/As rear, SZ50s in front, Alston SFCs, ES Trans Mount, ES front A-arm bushings, ES front sway bar end links

 

The ignition swich could be the problem but try this 1st.
Take the starter out, just let it hang by the wire and turn the key over to see if it spins. I know you said you replaced it but its still possible that its froze. If it doesnt spin than it probably is the swich, But I would check all the wires again to make sure.
SSC

 

My guess is that you forgot to put a wire back on the starter. There are usually a bunch of them and it's possible you missed one. Either that or one broke.

 

Yea, maybe but wouldn't the starter have to be bolted to the block so it would be grounded?

Also.. the starter solenoid won't even go out so I don't see how unbolting the starter would help..

 

The reason I replaced the starter was because it wouldn't start. So changing the starter didn't fix the real problem.. and yes I made sure all the wires are hooked up..

 

BTW... The fuel pump doesn't come on when I turn the key, also I put a light bulb in the same circuit as the starter solenoid wire that goes to the clutch pedal and it didn't come on.. so the solenoid isn't getting any energy. What could it be?

 

btt

 

Fromyour last post you said that the fuel pump does not come on. If I understand correctly if there is no oil pressure then the fuel pump does not work. If this is a correct assumption then I would look for a relay that controls this as it may also control the power going to the starter. You could also try shorting the wires on the soloniod. Short the big red(?)wire in the centre of the soloniod to the wire on the starter directly below the red wire. If the starter spins then you know that the starter is ok.

 

The fuel pump should come on when you turn the key, that's controlled by the fuel pump relay. But that relay doesn't have anything to do with the starter cranking, in fact you should be able to start the car with the fp relay unplugged. You do have another relay that noone has mentioned yet. It's the starter enable relay. I don't know exactly what it's for, but if it's bad you can't start the car without it. It's located behind the kick panel on the driver's side. You can bypass it with a piece of jumper wire. But I don't know what two color wires to jumper, you'd have to get a wiring diagram. Besides, I think the fuel pump would run even if the starter enable relay was bad. It's kinda a longshot, but definitely worth checking.

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91 Z28
Come see The Vicious...

 

Is there anything that would cause the starter and the fuel pump not to work?

 

The enable relay interlocks the automatic transmission safety switches or clutch safety on a manual. If you turn on your ignition and depress the detent release button on the shifter in an automatic, you should be able to hear the relay click. It's a redundant safety for starting.

Your original diagnosis may be correct, however. I would check the ignition switch if the starter wiring checks out O.K. The switch is at the base of the steering column on the top of the column outer jacket tube. The switch is connected to the lock cylinder via a linkage rod, then a rack and pinion.


One quick thing to check is the temperature gauge - does it move to the top end when the key is turned to the "START" position?

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Later,
Vader
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"Fear is how I fall, Confusing what is real..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader

 

Yes, the temperature guage moves to the top, which makes me think the ignition is working fine. But a month or so ago (not that long ago considering I haven't been driving it much) I took the steering column apart to tighten it so maybe something is loose on there (I had to pull on some of the wires to get the turn signal switch out).

[This message has been edited by Mike89GTA (edited May 25, 2001).]

 

Ok, I just went and looked under the dash for any loose wires, everything looks ok. BTW I guess the fuel pump is working. I hear a whirring noise behind me when I turn the key, so I guess that's good..

I'm running out of ideas, maybe the fuseable links by the starter are bad? I have headers but I pulled on them and they didn't come apart. One of them is a little bit melted and one of them the rubber seems hard from the header heat.

 

btt

 

I think I'm getting close to the problem. I took the starter enable relay apart and manually closed it with my finger. The engine cranked over just fine. So I know the relay is bad. But the car still won't start. I checked for fuel and spark and have both. So what's left? Why would it not start if I have fuel and spark, I guess all I'm missing is AIR?? lol..


[This message has been edited by Mike89GTA (edited May 27, 2001).]

 

Ok, now I think the relay might be fine. I just hooked up a light bulb to the small green and small yellow wires in the starter enable relay.. it didn't light when I turned the key. Which means that it's not the relay's fault because it's not getting any electricity. The farthest I can trace it back in my mind is to the ignition cylinder and VATS but I'm not sure how that system works. All I know is the check engine soon light stays on when I try to start it but the security light never comes on. I read the codes and nothing. Could it still be the VATS or is it some wierd switch/wire problem in the dash? Does this sound like a VATS problem?

 

Does your car key have a RESISTOR in it? cuz mine does and one day it wouldnt start. But i put it in a different way and she turned over instantly. I was worried.

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1992 Pontiac Firebird (stock)
- 5.0L V8 TBI / Automatic Trans / Every option, excluding leather
- Killer car audio system:

• Aiwa CDC-MP3 head unit
• Rockford Fosgate 360a2 amp
• pair of 12" MTX Thunder 5000s in a custom box
• Pioneer 3-way 6x9s, soon to add more more more!

 

I think the key is working but I was thinking of testing it by putting some tape over the resistor on the key and seeing what happens. (REALLY running out of ideas here)

 

Okay I put tape over the key and tried to start it. The security light didn't come on. Shouldn't it have?

I guess I'm going to try and change the ignition switch. Is there anything to know before doing this?

 

Matt,

You must be about ready to get this thing running by about now.

You've established several things now:

The starter itself will operate;
The start enable relay will operate;
The fuel pump will operate;
The steering column was recently "adjusted";
The temperature gauge pegs when you attempt to start it;

Clean the ignition key and contacts to make certain the VATS is getting a good connection. Remove teh lower trim panel and observe the top linkage rods when you turn the ingition lock cylinder. Find the one that is moving with the cylinder - it should move upward (toward the driver) when you try to crank it. As you turn the key, grab this rod and help move it as far as it will go to try to start it. If the starter cranks, you need to adjust the switch position or something in the upper bowl of the column is out of place or worn. If it doesn't crank, you need to dig into the VATS system and possibly the ignition switch.

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Later,
Vader
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"Let the bodies hit the floor!"
Adobe Acrobat Reader

 

Thanks! Going to go try those right now..

 

Ok, I tried pushing the rod up and it didn't help. One thing I noticed is when I put the key in it doesn't do the beeping sound unless I push the key in.. if it's just sitting there it doesn't beep. I tried to push the key in while I turn it, thinking the VATS may be making a poor connection too but it didn't help. I've never really had to wiggle the key to get it to start so I don't think it's a bad connection at the key.. I mean it would probably not just go out like this without some warning. I probably pulled a wire off somewhere when I was tightening the steering wheel a month ago.

 

Found the problem!! I pulled the ignition cylinder out and both of the yellow wires are severed completely at the end of the lock. IT looks like they were sliced after turning the key a whole bunch of times. What can I do now to fix it? I hope I don't have to buy a new lock cylinder.

 

Can I solder the wires or will that change the resistance value?

 

One more question, can I unplug the wires from the ignition lock? I can't tell if they unplug or not.